MrFortyFive
Member
Even if I'm not quite 100% on board with the logic, I'm absolutely thrilled to see this kind of communication, consistency, and openness. Just tell me what hoop to jump through for Saturday Morning RPG
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Limited Run Games - Putting digital games into your hands
- Thread starter dallow_bg
- Start date
- Status
Even if I'm not quite 100% on board with the logic, I'm absolutely thrilled to see this kind of communication, consistency, and openness. Just tell me what hoop to jump through for Saturday Morning RPG
Actually, you're absolutely right. Not to discredit Breach & Clear, I haven't played it yet, but if it wasn't a limited run, I'm not sure I'd order one, now or anytime soon. When you make it limited, you don't get a lot of leeway, you either order one or get stuck without one. I understand why you're not going the same route as Gaijinworks now, you guys got it all figured out. I'll continue to support all your endeavors and keep sharing the word with the world.
Well then you are a collector. If you insist on a physical copy of this game (and nobody cared about this game prior to it becoming rare) then you are a collector. If you want games like this in physical forms you will have to spend some time finding a way to get a copy. I do not consider those hoops.. I consider them rules or a way to get what I want and if I miss out I do not plan on trying to change the entire game as I realize the ONLY reason anyone on earth wants this game in physical form is because it is very limited.
But if you are upset at not getting THIS particular game in physical form.. you are a collector of rare items.. like it or not.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
The thing is, there are 3 primary groups that we're trying to make happy here.
1) Players who prefer physical to digital.
2) Collectors
3) Limited Run Games
Ideally, you want to limit the run so that collectors are happy and Limited Run Games doesn't have excess stock and loses money, while still printing enough copies that they don't sell out instantly and players have a decent shot at buying at the original price. It's a difficult balancing act but if you're going to err, you should err on the side of caution since that is beneficial for collectors and LRG makes money and doesn't go out of business while still benefiting some players (those who manage to grab it before it sells out).
You want to avoid what happened to Stick it to the Man. That wasn't presented as being particularly limited or collectible and as a result, the physical copy is available for well under its original price now, which makes me think that they overproduced and possibly lost money on the deal.
1) Players who prefer physical to digital.
2) Collectors
3) Limited Run Games
Ideally, you want to limit the run so that collectors are happy and Limited Run Games doesn't have excess stock and loses money, while still printing enough copies that they don't sell out instantly and players have a decent shot at buying at the original price. It's a difficult balancing act but if you're going to err, you should err on the side of caution since that is beneficial for collectors and LRG makes money and doesn't go out of business while still benefiting some players (those who manage to grab it before it sells out).
You want to avoid what happened to Stick it to the Man. That wasn't presented as being particularly limited or collectible and as a result, the physical copy is available for well under its original price now, which makes me think that they overproduced and possibly lost money on the deal.
Just gonna throw this out there:
There seems to be an underlying assumption among some posts that it's easy to print however many copies. It's not. Also, doing 1500 or 3000 or 5000 copies is a lot for a tiny company and a tiny studio. All of that has to be dealt with up front, tiny companies and studios don't have a lot of spare dollars laying around, and certainly don't have the ability to leave a ton of inventory just laying around after the money was spent producing it. Doing another and another run is about as risky; once your inventory is sold and you've made X return on it above your costs, doing more puts you back in the huge up-front expenditure vs. the risk of uncertainty as to whether the inventory will sell.
Also, the first parties (be it sony or whoever) have certain requirements on their end. Sony has made it more.. possible to do stuff like this for small companies, but getting this done still has a whole lot of requirements that pertains to them as well.
I also find it interesting that LRG mentioned that Breach & Clear sold 2000 some odd copies when it was released quite some time ago. Now that it's getting a physical release for almost as many copies, people are super excited about it. That's great! I love that people are excited about the game again. But it's not too surprising that LRG had a very conservative estimate on the batch produced --- they essentially printed as many physical copies as the game had sold entirely (on Vita), why should they expect to double their sales on the platform for merely having a physical (and higher priced) version? Well, now they (and we all) know. Apparently a lot of people only start to care about getting a game once they know it's limited. If this was "Breach & Clear now physical - we keep doing reprints until people stop asking for it" then would they even have received enough orders to cover the initial print? It's entirely possible that they wouldn't have.
The point here isn't to be like Atlus or some niche publisher (who would also have vastly more resources than LRG or small studios they work with) and to crank out as many physical copies as could conceivably sell and make that as big a part of the business model as these indie studios have with their digital platforms... that simply would require a lot more resources on LRG's and indie studios' part. If LRG were pitched like that, a lot of indies would probably be less interested in the physical print run idea in general because they don't have the time/resources to essentially become embroiled with the physical distribution model.
tldr - doing single low quantity limited runs increases chances of copies selling, reduces risk, and has a better chance of getting small studios interested in doing it in the first place
Good thing this (Breach & Clear) was essentially a test run.
There seems to be an underlying assumption among some posts that it's easy to print however many copies. It's not. Also, doing 1500 or 3000 or 5000 copies is a lot for a tiny company and a tiny studio. All of that has to be dealt with up front, tiny companies and studios don't have a lot of spare dollars laying around, and certainly don't have the ability to leave a ton of inventory just laying around after the money was spent producing it. Doing another and another run is about as risky; once your inventory is sold and you've made X return on it above your costs, doing more puts you back in the huge up-front expenditure vs. the risk of uncertainty as to whether the inventory will sell.
Also, the first parties (be it sony or whoever) have certain requirements on their end. Sony has made it more.. possible to do stuff like this for small companies, but getting this done still has a whole lot of requirements that pertains to them as well.
I also find it interesting that LRG mentioned that Breach & Clear sold 2000 some odd copies when it was released quite some time ago. Now that it's getting a physical release for almost as many copies, people are super excited about it. That's great! I love that people are excited about the game again. But it's not too surprising that LRG had a very conservative estimate on the batch produced --- they essentially printed as many physical copies as the game had sold entirely (on Vita), why should they expect to double their sales on the platform for merely having a physical (and higher priced) version? Well, now they (and we all) know. Apparently a lot of people only start to care about getting a game once they know it's limited. If this was "Breach & Clear now physical - we keep doing reprints until people stop asking for it" then would they even have received enough orders to cover the initial print? It's entirely possible that they wouldn't have.
The point here isn't to be like Atlus or some niche publisher (who would also have vastly more resources than LRG or small studios they work with) and to crank out as many physical copies as could conceivably sell and make that as big a part of the business model as these indie studios have with their digital platforms... that simply would require a lot more resources on LRG's and indie studios' part. If LRG were pitched like that, a lot of indies would probably be less interested in the physical print run idea in general because they don't have the time/resources to essentially become embroiled with the physical distribution model.
tldr - doing single low quantity limited runs increases chances of copies selling, reduces risk, and has a better chance of getting small studios interested in doing it in the first place
Good thing this (Breach & Clear) was essentially a test run.
outunderthestars
Banned
Even if I'm not quite 100% on board with the logic, I'm absolutely thrilled to see this kind of communication, consistency, and openness. Just tell me what hoop to jump through for Saturday Morning RPG
Agreed 100% with this. Equally impressed with the honestly and openness from Zeboyd Games as well. I hope that other indie developers are looking at what LRG have started and will get in touch soon.
I feel like I am 15 again buying seven inches from tiny record labels. For years I have wanted to see that kind of thing develop with games. Hell, i will end up buying B&C on PSN just so I can keep my copy sealed.
dolabla
Member
I second this.
I have never played Breach & Clear, but I had to get it because of its rarity. I also 100% support physical over digital, so this is a cause I can easily get behind. The day all games go digital is the day I might give up gaming completely. There's just nothing like having a physical library.
I will try to buy every game Limited Run Games puts out. They have my support 100%.
thekiddfran
Member
The salty posts in here are ridiculous.
This is a limited print of games. Once they are gone they are gone. If you really wanted the game like I did you would have set an alarm or reminder to get it when the store goes online.
It literally took me two seconds. Wake up, turn on laptop, go to website and click purchase. Once purchased, go back to bed. Done
This is a limited print of games. Once they are gone they are gone. If you really wanted the game like I did you would have set an alarm or reminder to get it when the store goes online.
It literally took me two seconds. Wake up, turn on laptop, go to website and click purchase. Once purchased, go back to bed. Done
LimitedRunGames
Member
They're having so much trouble moving copies of that game that you can find "preowned" copies at Target that are actually just new copies that have been relabeled.
Olengie
Member
This. You couldve went mobile
I also want to echo the sentiment that the communication from LRG is exemplary and refreshing.
Regarding Breach and Clear: knowing that LRG's mission is to give digital games a physical life, I was already 100% on board to buy it, rarity or no. The cover doesn't look that interesting to me, and of course I had never heard of it before since it's a smaller title, less marketing, and even if I had heard of it, would have ignored it the moment I heard digital only. I understand that digital to physical isn't gonna be enough for most people though, and that's a salient point.
I know I've mentioned open preorders a couple times, so I apologize if it came across as at all insistent. I differ a little bit here with LRG and most of the posters here; I'd rather see as many copies of the game as possible, the appeal of rarity is marginal to me.
Something I think we can all agree on though (I think), is the hope for LRG to make as much money as possible (so they can keep publishing games that wouldn't get a chance). Rarity may just be the best way to achieve that, and I respect that. Given how fast B&C sold out though, I feel like moderately larger print runs or even a price increase might be worth looking into as well.
Not to play backseat economist too much. I'll freely admit that I don't know what I'm talking about ^.^ and that it's also probably really complicated. By the way, I appreciate the corrections on the 25% number from before. It's neat insight to have.
Regarding Breach and Clear: knowing that LRG's mission is to give digital games a physical life, I was already 100% on board to buy it, rarity or no. The cover doesn't look that interesting to me, and of course I had never heard of it before since it's a smaller title, less marketing, and even if I had heard of it, would have ignored it the moment I heard digital only. I understand that digital to physical isn't gonna be enough for most people though, and that's a salient point.
I know I've mentioned open preorders a couple times, so I apologize if it came across as at all insistent. I differ a little bit here with LRG and most of the posters here; I'd rather see as many copies of the game as possible, the appeal of rarity is marginal to me.
Something I think we can all agree on though (I think), is the hope for LRG to make as much money as possible (so they can keep publishing games that wouldn't get a chance). Rarity may just be the best way to achieve that, and I respect that. Given how fast B&C sold out though, I feel like moderately larger print runs or even a price increase might be worth looking into as well.
Not to play backseat economist too much. I'll freely admit that I don't know what I'm talking about ^.^ and that it's also probably really complicated. By the way, I appreciate the corrections on the 25% number from before. It's neat insight to have.
Ok, I'm buying a copy of Stick it to the Man today.
I actually really like the game.
Yeah, everyone that missed out did so because they had full access to a computer or a smartphone at the time of purchase.
Your circumstances do not apply to everybody else.
LimitedRunGames
Member
It's a great game, I just think the publisher completely overestimated demand for it. I don't claim to know the specifics of brick and mortar retail but I imagine they took quite a hit on unsold copies.
Fatal Futanari
Member
Learn to plan lol
LimitedRunGames
Member
In the future we're going to put a batch up for sale in the morning and one at night, which really should level the playing field. Hopefully, you or anyone else who may have missed this run will have a better shot at subsequent runs with split launch times in place.
Bar81
Member
The fact that you have to that is in and of itself retarded.
There should be a preorder period where anyone who wants one can get a copy without having to schedule alarms and such. It would also allow the publisher to maximize profit as they would have an accurate idea of print run needed and not leave money on the table.
You're still doing it wrong.
LimitedRunGames
Member
You might want to read our previous posts on open preorders. I strongly believe that for small or lesser known games, open preorders would not be successful enough to even meet minimum order requirements. If all of our releases were essentially open editions, a lot of people wouldn't bother and we need those people to actually sell the quantities printing requires.
The fact that many posting here seemed unwilling to put forth any effort to obtain a copy themselves for something that was available for over an hour seems in and of itself retarded. If it's not worth setting an alarm and being available, it shouldn't be worth arguing over. The time that it was available given the small print run was more than sufficient. Unless you were in a coma from an accident, most of this just comes across as childish entitlement. You want one, put in the minor effort it took to place an order when it went up for sale.
There have been a number of comments regarding jumping through hoops for this. If resellers were willing to jump through more hoops than you to get a copy...then maybe the person that wanted it the most actually got it.
If the next game sells out in minutes, you might have a better point, but this was available for plenty of time.
punkmaggit
Member
You can't make 100% of the people happy 100% of the time. I thought the way you guys handled your first release was on-point. Hope it's similar for SMRPG.
Bar81
Member
I'm glad that you have no life but for adults 1 hour windows are ridiculous.
Fatal Futanari
Member
Lol so much salt. Learn to plan.
Bar81
Member
Not sure how you can make that decision without having either tried preorders or having hard data. Belief is a strange orthodoxy on which to run a business.
Bar81
Member
Easier just to give it a pass. Having a real life means that you don't schedule your day around publisher's beliefs.
I agree, I saw it release and didn't lose sleep over not getting it. At the thought of a limited physical release, I jumped on it when had it normally release as a physical and digital game I wouldn't bat an eye. That said I at least looked at some gameplay before hand and didn't make the purchase completely blind.
Actually, I ordered on my cell phone from work, but like I said, childish self entitlement.
Fatal Futanari
Member
Then stop complaining? You chose to do nothing. I love how people who were able to get this "have no life" to you. Please stop bitching if you can't even pencil in 5min to make a small purchase during your day.
So many "adults" are crying over this.
DeuceGamer
Member
LRG, Zeboyd Games, and those involved in this project. Kudo's to you for the way you have handled this. I hope you know there are plenty of us that understand what you are trying to do and why. For a first project to gauge interest you have done a very admiral job, IMO. You have already developed a relationship with your potential consumers, which I'm sure is exactly what you wanted to do.
Exactly. I mentioned above that nothing against the game but I doubt you would have sold half if people didn't know it was limited and would never be printed again.
Exactly. I mentioned they underestimated demand before they sold any simply based off the fact that there are a lot of Vita (and general Game) collectors that want to be sure they don't miss out on a limited physical game. If you don't get it now, chances are you won't get another chance without overpaying.
Exactly. I mentioned above that nothing against the game but I doubt you would have sold half if people didn't know it was limited and would never be printed again.
Exactly. I mentioned they underestimated demand before they sold any simply based off the fact that there are a lot of Vita (and general Game) collectors that want to be sure they don't miss out on a limited physical game. If you don't get it now, chances are you won't get another chance without overpaying.
I think weekends would be less problematic than weekdays.
I got my copy but I am able to understand that some people really are not able to just check their smartphone or sit at a computer terminal all day. Some workplaces, like my Walmart store (I don't work at Walmart), have cell reception blockers so anyone inside, employees and customers, can't use their cellphones. If you're stationed at electronics, you can't leave your post to go outside until shift ends. My sister's weird schedule would make her unable to purchase at both morning and evening time windows, and no smartphone playing during work hours. She's not personally interested in LRG but an example that some people are not as fortunate as you in free time at the right time. I volunterered at a con and the reception was crap and no open wifi either. No internet for me during my time at the con. Imagine other people in similar situations will you?
This is a common theme I see in some threads: inability to understand other people other than your own (Gravity Rush thread, ie), much like the recent white people on drugs thread, where in that thread it is not the posters but the subject itself of white people not relating to minorities until it hits them too.
I got my copy but I am able to understand that some people really are not able to just check their smartphone or sit at a computer terminal all day. Some workplaces, like my Walmart store (I don't work at Walmart), have cell reception blockers so anyone inside, employees and customers, can't use their cellphones. If you're stationed at electronics, you can't leave your post to go outside until shift ends. My sister's weird schedule would make her unable to purchase at both morning and evening time windows, and no smartphone playing during work hours. She's not personally interested in LRG but an example that some people are not as fortunate as you in free time at the right time. I volunterered at a con and the reception was crap and no open wifi either. No internet for me during my time at the con. Imagine other people in similar situations will you?
This is a common theme I see in some threads: inability to understand other people other than your own (Gravity Rush thread, ie), much like the recent white people on drugs thread, where in that thread it is not the posters but the subject itself of white people not relating to minorities until it hits them too.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
https://twitter.com/MixedBagGames/status/660093254298427392
Mixed Bag Games is twitter polling interest in a physical release for Futuridium EP Deluxe, which would also probably predicate them being keen on future interest for a physical release of Forma.8 when it releases.
reposting this so people interested can get a chance to see it amidst the hashing out
Olengie
Member
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
Futurlab (Velocity) just posted this: https://twitter.com/FuturLab/status/660190933611360256
YianGaruga
Banned
Someone in the replies suggested a Futurlab collection which is much more interesting, although I don't know if that's even possible.
I guess Breach & Clear really was successful project for LRG.
Finale Fireworker
Member
So far, I'm only positively on board for Cosmic Star Heroine.
But there are SO many Vita games I WOULD buy physically. Space is such a concern these days, even on 64 GB cards. But the fetishistic nature of Vita fans means there's probably a lot of us who will want everything.
But there are SO many Vita games I WOULD buy physically. Space is such a concern these days, even on 64 GB cards. But the fetishistic nature of Vita fans means there's probably a lot of us who will want everything.
LimitedRunGames
Member
We're excited about the possibility! As a fan of Velocity 2X, I'd be happy to see just a standalone Velocity 2X release. A collection is within the realm of possibility but it'd be quite a bit of work and would ultimately end up being more expensive than $25 (both Velocity games on PSN would cost $28).
Also, don't read into this, we literally have nothing signed with FuturLab. Whether it ends up being a collection of standalone release will be up to them - they'll get the final say on pricing too.
Also, don't read into this, we literally have nothing signed with FuturLab. Whether it ends up being a collection of standalone release will be up to them - they'll get the final say on pricing too.
LimitedRunGames
Member
I could probably find some Vita games absolutely no one would want on a cart. PS4 games too.
outunderthestars
Banned
Are you aiming to keep the price of the games to $25 for future releases?
LimitedRunGames
Member
Ideally yes, so long as the game is available digitally for $15 or less. Anything higher than that and the price will have to rise to make sure the developer still gets a strong cut and the cost of the cart/disc remains covered.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
I would want a duo cart of Velocity Ultra and Velocity 2x, ala the French Rayman Origins/Legends cart.
I have a thing for clean cohesion, ala Super Mario All-Stars or Metal Slug Anthology versus stuff like Rare Replay. Also, we'd be asking for 4 games on a cart versus 2 for $25 and up (presumably, $40 or 50?)
Futurlab would have to make them executable from a menu (or whatever technical jargon I don't actually know anything about) themselves, and then have LRG package that. Might be good incentive for them to make a single "Velocity Collection" available digitally too. Ultra is only on Vita, though, so the PS4 disc would be one game either way.
Finale Fireworker
Member
I could probably find some Vita games absolutely no one would want on a cart. PS4 games too.
Okay, let me define some parameters: everything that is already on my mental wishlist that may or may not represent the userbase at large.
This is much more realistic, as you can see!
I know LRG is trying not to flood the release schedule but it seems excited, eager studios may try to do this themselves and flood the market with their rare print games. My wallet also has a limted run at any given time.
I do admit that collectibility and scarcity are huge factors in pushing me to purchase higher and sooner relative to a normal release. With a release title in abundant quantities, I just wait till the price drops. Those two factors can help in overcoming my natural resistance to a release title that I am unhappy with in some way (censorship, dub only, no LE like EU/JP, etc).
I do admit that collectibility and scarcity are huge factors in pushing me to purchase higher and sooner relative to a normal release. With a release title in abundant quantities, I just wait till the price drops. Those two factors can help in overcoming my natural resistance to a release title that I am unhappy with in some way (censorship, dub only, no LE like EU/JP, etc).
outunderthestars
Banned
I'm just ready for Cosmic Star Heroine to get a release date....... Ahem. Zeboyd?
YianGaruga
Banned
Yeah after posting I thought about it more and I agree.
Velocity collection would be perfect.
2X alone feels weird, but all games might be too much
I'm just ready for Cosmic Star Heroine to get a release date....... Ahem. Zeboyd?
I hope it's still 2015, I really do.
LimitedRunGames
Member
It's not as easy as just saying "Hey Sony - can we do a physical version of our game?" You have to talk to no less than twelve different people at Sony, get set up with four different websites, buy hundreds of dollars of Helvetica fonts, and learn a ton of manufacturing terminology that you otherwise would have no inclination to learn. We started working on Breach & Clear's physical release in March and we only received the cartridges at the beginning of this month.
Releasing a physical game is very intensive and a lot of work - and that's just producing it. Marketing to fans and shipping out orders is also a ton of work. We've put at least three months worth of cumulative work time into Breach & Clear. If that was the only thing we planned to release, the effort vs. money break down wouldn't be worth it. Since we're releasing other titles, we're not wasting the time we spent learning all of the manufacturing process. Eventually we'll be able to pay off the time we spent building B&C up.
I think some enthusiastic developers may start the process to chase some quick money, but they'll ultimately give up when they realize it's not easy.
TL;DR I don't see many people trying to do their own physical releases without talking to us first. The work is pretty staggering and developers just want to focus on development. If we can handle the process for them at very little cost to them, why not?
- Status