Limited Run Games - Putting digital games into your hands
- Thread starter dallow_bg
- Start date
- Status
otaku-asia
Member
I think a 60:40 Vita
S4 ratio would work fine. PS4 has the bigger installation base but also a lot more casual players. Vita is definitely the system that attracts more collectors. Pretty much every LRG Vita release sold out faster than the PS4 one, even if production quantities were the same.YianGaruga
Banned
Here's an interesting stat
1600 people tried to buy a $120 bundle at the same time. Doesn't seem impossible that that many or more were trying for Söldner.
1600 people tried to buy a $120 bundle at the same time. Doesn't seem impossible that that many or more were trying for Söldner.
Seeing people checkout after you and getting it is the disheartening part.Here's an interesting stat
1600 people tried to buy a $120 bundle at the same time. Doesn't seem impossible that that many or more were trying for Söldner.
Kresnik258
Member
So, at the other end of the spectrum - Breach & Clear Deadline is still in stock, showing as yellow on the website which is > 25% I think.
Mad that we've seen such different ends of the spectrum within one day. Vita game sold out within 3 minutes (or less!); PS4 game still in stock after 13 hours.
Although I know it's the more expensive production, it definitely seems LRG should think about upping their Vita quantities.
Anyway, metroidvania in August. I hope it's not Knytt (also, wouldn't that be from Ripstone, who I'm pretty sure have done their own retail publishing before - Stick it to the Man on PS4).
Guacamelee I would be SO down for. That may also fit with the "PS4 2x Vita" thing I seem to remember from a while ago, because the PS4 version is complete while Vita version is missing stuff.
Axiom Verge would also be all sorts of awesome.
Mad that we've seen such different ends of the spectrum within one day. Vita game sold out within 3 minutes (or less!); PS4 game still in stock after 13 hours.
Although I know it's the more expensive production, it definitely seems LRG should think about upping their Vita quantities.
Anyway, metroidvania in August. I hope it's not Knytt (also, wouldn't that be from Ripstone, who I'm pretty sure have done their own retail publishing before - Stick it to the Man on PS4).
Guacamelee I would be SO down for. That may also fit with the "PS4 2x Vita" thing I seem to remember from a while ago, because the PS4 version is complete while Vita version is missing stuff.
Axiom Verge would also be all sorts of awesome.
Shadowman16
Member
I might actually have to get both the Vita and PS4 LRG releases if the Metroidvania game is Guacamelee. The Vita version for my collection and the PS4 version for all the extras/additions/changes the game got for its Super Turbo release (or whatever it was called). I loved that game...
I agree about the Vita quantities point. I wonder if LRG could get away with doing an extra 1000 copies of each game (for example?). They seem to sell out fast enough on the Vita, while the PS4 releases have taken longer to sell out apart from Saturday Morning RPG (I wonder why that game sold out faster on the PS4?)
Kresnik258
Member
First LRG release on PS4, perhaps?
I don't really know Knitt, but why not. Guacamelee and Axiom Verge would be on a whole other level though ! After Söldner, I don't see anything really tickling me (except Volume, a bit), so one of these games would really give me something to look forward to !
Also, I read someone writing about La Mulana EX, and I would also buy that in an instant. One of the very few games I platinumed since it was so rewarding <3
Delusibeta
Banned
Bluntly, after last night's debarcles, I think Limited Run is being irresponsible by not having preorders.
zenosparadox
Member
You're more than welcome to start your own company and put up your own capital. You can take all the financial risk of ordering a fixed amount of copies which may never sell, or you can open up pre-orders and watch your sales tank. Which would you prefer?
EDIT: Do people consider the store itself to be the problem, or is it just frustration of getting beat to the punch? I am curious what the flaws are considered to be. I would not consider demand one such flaw.
I encountered a store problem last night. Plain and simple.
Game was added to the cart within seconds of going live and I immediately went to check out. It was listed as "out of stock" that's literally just seconds into the game being on sale. It happened three times.
Then, while browsing forums and twitter, it was clear that there were people who came to the sale AFTER me and we able to make a purchase.
THAT'S the issue which concerns me about the future.
zenosparadox
Member
If the store is not working correctly, then that is a valid criticism. Technology can be fixed.
The timing of posts on twitter and forums is a bit misleading, though. I myself usually post about my successful purchases a fair bit after making my purchase. This is not necessarily an indicator of the time of purchase.
Hope you have better success in the future.
otaku-asia
Member
Same here. Also which product did you purchase? I think there was an issue with the bundle, however the vanilla version was on sale for a couple of minutes.
I would imagine for most, it's a mix of a bad storefront and having demand well above supply. If you run into a single issue during checkout, you can basically kiss your chance of getting a copy of the more in-demand games goodbye.
zenosparadox
Member
I successfully managed to get both OST bundles for Soldner X-2 and Breach & Clear: Deadline from the first batch. I was logged into my LRG account, logged into Paypal and waiting when 10AM rolled around.
It seems that was the better opportunity of the two batches.
otaku-asia
Member
I haven't encountered any checkout problems so far, but at least the site is stable. Most sites would be unreachable if thousands of people attempt to make a purchase at the same time, which would make the process an even bigger gamble.
YianGaruga
Banned
EDIT: I'll just drop it
blazeuk
Member
If they sold out of their stock within seconds then I'd agree it's just demand otherwise the store has an issue where it shows stock has gone when it hasn't - maybe it just can't handle the influx of orders in such a short space of time that it causes problems for the cart. LRG were considering some sort of subscription earlier in this thread, perhaps it's time they take another look at that - it wouldn't have to affect the number of copies overall, it would just lower the amount going on general sale if some were set aside for those subscribed.
Like it or not, scalpers, low prints and high aftermarket values drives demand enormously. Having pre-orders would make the sales crash, guaranteed. Of course there is a problem if the items sells out in seconds but it is still a one-time event. Let's hope it can be avoided in the future but it's not easy to guess demand in advance. A lower print run than Soldner, Breach & Clear PS4, has still not sold out.
YianGaruga
Banned
I think I know how people ordered copies without the button going live. No scripts or hacking involved
This probably needs to be fixed before the next games go on sale.
This probably needs to be fixed before the next games go on sale.
I understand LRG wants to sell its games quickly, but B&C PS4 was released barely 24 hours ago. Actually, from a customer point of view : it is the ideal scenario. If I wanted to buy it right now, I wouldn't need to make a splitsecond decision lest it be sold out.
I hope they'll scale their production up in the future so this situation becomes the norm.
Oh yeah, I forgot about the first Japanese game being a September release. Hopefully LRG can get La-Mulana EX one day!
YianGaruga
Banned
Yep that's an ideal amount. But just scaling up prodcution isn't the answer, as 1000 more copies of Deadline would have been a disaster. It's difficult to hit the sweet spot.
Kresnik258
Member
Surely you can understand why it would be difficult for them, though. I mean, Soldner had 200 more copies than B&C, yet the latter lasted for about 18 hours (and counting) while the former lasted for all of a couple of minutes. How do they effectively gauge what the demand is for each title?
It's a really tricky one. I don't envy them for having to try and figure it out
YianGaruga
Banned
Bottom to top
This sounds like the right idea and should alleviate some of the issues people were having with Soldner
This sounds like the right idea and should alleviate some of the issues people were having with Soldner
I love how transparent LRG are with these issues, there may be some hiccups along the way with the new company and all that, but the fact that they are constantly addressing not only concerns like this but also individuals on public message boards, is really freaking great. Props to them.
That being said, could a lot of these issues be Shopify servers? I'm in Australia and thankfully am yet to have even a slight issue, could it be that the US servers the storefront uses just buckle under the sheer amount of people trying to all log in and purchase on a single page at once? Though I guess it's not an ENORMOUS amount, but just spitballing.
That being said, could a lot of these issues be Shopify servers? I'm in Australia and thankfully am yet to have even a slight issue, could it be that the US servers the storefront uses just buckle under the sheer amount of people trying to all log in and purchase on a single page at once? Though I guess it's not an ENORMOUS amount, but just spitballing.
I'm pretty sure a big part of the issue is that they keep dividing up the stock. The system seems to freak out at lower numbers; coupled with the amount of people trying to make a purchase at once. Overload.
It sure is, I understand this =)
That's just one of the many problems related to this business model.
I've read your arguments against the preorder/subscription model, and they make total sense from a business point of view (at least in the short term) but I'm still convinced it's the worst choice for the customer in the end.
They're pretty much assured to sell all of their stock (between 2000 and 3000 units) everytime, so it can finance the next batch, etc etc... but you can't ask your clients to compete in such a tight race everytime. I think this business model is good to subsist, which is a good thing for a small company already, but I fear it may also prevent them from growing
And we often read that with a preorder system, "sales would tank, guaranteed", but we simply do not know that for sure, nor in what proportions sales would actually tank. Maybe they would only slightly decrease, and LRG would still make a profit while boosting their customers' fidelity. It very well could.
I know it's been discussed time and time again, and I don't want to spark another deja-vu debate, I just wanted to state my point of view which is : I accept the short term necessity of their business model, but I don't like it.
(contrary to the product itself that I love :3)
Yes and no. If the quantity of games remain the same, then there will be as many disappointed customers as before, although it won't necessarily be the same people.
BUT it's still a good idea since at least everybody will be on an equal footing when F5 time comes.
YianGaruga
Banned
In my opinion the most convenient solution for the customer isn't the best here. I still see this project as something that we, the fans, are in with LRG together, so we have to compromise and find solutions that work for everyone.
Imagine a pre-order period (from opening orders until the product ships) takes two months, 3-4 releases per month. That would mean >20000 open orders for months at the same time and that's not even factoring in delays which always happen. And if you worked in retail, you know customers are the worst people in the world. Imagine the customer service nightmare that would be and how much time and money would have to be sacrificed that could instead be spent on new projects and other cool stuff.
I'm repeating myself, but as soon as there is enough data to anticipate demand (we're already there for the most part, Sölder was an exception) and make print runs big enough, most of the growing pains will be gone. A game being available for a few hours on avarage isn't a race, everyone will get what they want. That games sell out in seconds isn't an ideal scenario for anyone, neither for us, the devs or for LRG. So it's guaranteed that they will adjust.
In very rare cases people will miss out because of a wrong prediction of demand, but even then, missing out on a game and spending a few $ more on the aftermarket is not the end of the world. There is no need to have pre-orders open for a longer time and accept all the drawbacks that come with them for us and LRG just because of that.
I also don't think "growth" is necessarily what we should hope for with LRG. I've seen enough "humble" (cough) and "for the people" projects go completely to shit once there was focus on growth, influx of VC and so on. So be careful what you wish for.
There haven't been disappointed customers with the last few releases IIRC, Söldner was just a mistake. That will happen, but less and less as time goes on. I think for the last releases (Octodad, Futuridium, Xeodrifter, Lost Sea, Deadline) practically everyone who wanted a copy was able to get one without too much trouble.
I think people are too quick to demand big changes just because one thing went wrong. The last few months before Söldner were fine. We've already seen IMMENSE improvements in every area. Give it more time.
sechsterangriff
Member
Demand for Söldner was underestimated? I was under the impression that it was the first "high profile" game being released since Oddworld. Hell, even if it was not high profile, it's an excellent game and I was sure shooter fans would be all over this (I know I did).
ScHlAuChi
Member
If a preorder system isnt ever an option, then there is one other way this could be solved in a fair way.
The lottery way - everyone who wants a copy (limited to 1) can place an order within 1 hour. If the number of orders within that timeframe exceeds the number of printed copies, they just run a script after the cutoff period that randomly picks which people will get it.
This would remove the unfairness of buyscripts, technical issues and scalpers as everyone has the same chance. You cant be angry at an algorithm for not picking you
The lottery way - everyone who wants a copy (limited to 1) can place an order within 1 hour. If the number of orders within that timeframe exceeds the number of printed copies, they just run a script after the cutoff period that randomly picks which people will get it.
This would remove the unfairness of buyscripts, technical issues and scalpers as everyone has the same chance. You cant be angry at an algorithm for not picking you
YianGaruga
Banned
This is terrible. I'd rather lose out because I was too slow than participate in a lottery. Good luck selling this idea to people that are aiming for a full collection.If a preorder system isnt ever an option, then there is one other way this could be solved in a fair way.
The lottery way - everyone who wants a copy (limited to 1) can place an order within 1 hour. If the number of orders within that timeframe exceeds the number of printed copies, they just run a script after the cutoff period that randomly picks which people will get it.
This would remove the unfairness of buyscripts, technical issues and scalpers as everyone has the same chance. You cant be angry at an algorithm for not picking you
There is no indication that anyone is using scripts to buy, nor is there a need to. And I don't see how it removes scalpers.
otaku-asia
Member
Once in a while there will be games where demand is higher than supply, I think it's very hard to avoid when you only sell limited editions. Gotta remind myself to be ready whenever the first batch goes online in the future. :-D
I don't mind the supply being lower than the demand but what's unacceptable is when the technology bugs out and prevents a fan like any of us in here from buying the game.
YianGaruga
Banned
which also doesn't happen if the print run is big enough. Even if it happens you have enough time to try again later, clear cookies, use a different device or something. Literally all the problems are fixed if enough copies are there to last 15+ minutes at least.
Not that technical diffculties can be excused that way, but unless someone can verify what it is or how it happens (and I haven't seen reports of this bug with shopify outside LRG), it's the next best thing.
Agreed, but I believe it would be easier to fix a bug than predicting an accurate number of sales so might as well start there
. For what it's worth, I did test it on both Chrome and Internet Explorer and I also cleared the entire web history on Explorer before the second sale. I get your point though, with a bigger supply there's less likeliness of the bug occuring probably.GodzillaDB
Member
What about a pre-order or made-to-demand system with limited "purchase" windows, like two fifteen-minute batches several months in advance? They would enforce small quantities in their own right and offers data that could be used in communicating with the developers over the actual amount that could be pressed. If the developer ultimately demands a smaller run that falls underneath the demand, all initial orders could be fulfilled in a "first come, first serve" basis with everything else being cancelled with an e-mail informing the customer of their purchase falling outside of the batch limitation set by request of the actual game designers. On the other side of the spectrum, LRG and the respective developer agree to match the amount of orders with discretion over adding a few extra copies for contingency (damaged returns, giveaways, etc.). I know most of these suggestions are feeble efforts to get our toes inside the closing floodgates, but I do wish there was less tension when making these purchases. I doubt we'll ever completely remove scalpers from the situation yet, as someone who has thankfully been successful on all order attempts thus far, I do dread the thought of having to turn toward the second-hand market when I'd prefer to support LRG directly as a publisher. Although we aren't quite at this tipping point right now, but I do have worries over small runs being unable to balance out with an increasing user base over an extended period in the future. I believe scripts cutting into stock before an item goes live and other ordering snafus will continue to be an issue as long as the current course is maintained.
Its high time this shit gets stopped. This is not a fanpage for circlejerking. It's a discussion about a peculiar online shop and a business model that for Soldner collapsed into a raffle. People have legitimate and polite complaints, and noone has the need for your permission or that of Any other to raise them. If it was so, one could stop Any discussion on Any game just by "if you dont like it them code your own".
IT: I was there both times the very second stuff went online, didn't even manage to get to the check-out. Great job guys.
zenosparadox
Member
Well, this particular (or is peculiar?) online shop is based on a business model that allows them to sell the most copies because they negotiate up-front deals to release these games. This is a huge financial risk in that one serious miscalculation can break the bank.
I am tired of pricks like you and others in this thread being so dismissive of the challenges that LRG must face trying to run this company, taking care of all the crazy shipping customs snafus, negotiating deals, the finances, etc. These guys provide a great and unique service, so I think we should give these guys the benefit of the doubt instead of having what you call "polite" discussion calling LRG irresponsible or throwing tantrums like a 4-year-old. You bring nothing new or interesting to the conversation.
Like I said before, if the store is a problem, then it can, in theory, be fixed since this is just technology. I have never experienced any problems, and I doubt most people have had any issues either. If the demand is high, you might miss out.
You're probably right that I'm jumping the gun on this. We're all on tilt after the Söldner release.
Still, in the medium/long term, evolutions could be feasible, and I think they're needed. Growth is scary and can result in a perverted company, like you said, but it can also likely result in more customers getting to play awesome games at an affordable price. That's the best I wish for LRG.
Very excited to see how they adapt in the future
I like the idea of @GodzillaDB better : if you made the "preorder" period a limited window (1h, 2h, 24 hours...), then this whole customer service nightmare disappears. You simply need to add an "opt out" option, no "opt in", and there is literally nothing to manage. And everybody's happy (even the scalpers ^^)
ScHlAuChi
Member
That sounds like a good compromise - I like that idea!
Dragonslayer_023
Banned
Were there 3200 copies of both the Soldner soundtrack bundle and the standalone game, so 6400 total, or 3200 between the two?
Pellegri Testament
Member
It was 3200 between the 2.
I wanted a bundle, and now I'll have an incomplete collection forever because the bundle was NOT up simultaneously and that cost me a split second to get a solo version. Been posting here since day one, too. Right there on the very first page.
If you guys really see zero issues with this, I don't even want to be part of this thread's community anymore.
Zero empathy, Jesus christ.
The store buckles under demand, and it's not as simple as "you might miss out".
When you have people being immediately told that an item isn't in stock, when in fact others are able to purchase minutes later, it isn't right. Everyone is so excited about the product that they are eager to dismiss any flaws because this is being treated as a fan page. I agree with that completely. I experienced this problem once, on the initial set of games. It is extremely frustrating, and the fact is that purchasing can come down to whether or not the store decides to let you, regardless of whether there is stock available.
It is a joke that anyone wishing to discuss the flaws and push for resolution ends up on the wrong end of a bunch of name calling. LRG are a good bunch of folks and it's clear they want to do what is right for their customers. They don't need misduided fans fighting their battles for them. Bottom line is that the store has issues and it is not the customers responsibility to fix them.
Each time there is a popular release, this is going to keep happening. Eventually it will burn enough people that the dismissal will lose steam.
If anything, its clapping and cheering that adds nothing more to the conversation. Anyone running a business would rather check the pulse on problems. And btw, it seems to me that issues have not exactly gone unnoticed to them.
And color me perplexed about "behaving like 4yo" if you react like this at people voicing their issues about a shop. Not a non profit organization. A shop.
People are gonna criticize things you like. Even more so when they spend money and time for it. Get over it.
IT: A shopping system where being there for a 2' window is not enough is a joke and gets down to a raffle. PLEASE learn to gauge demand better. SHMUPS are consistently among the most wanted genres for collectors. How in hell did this end up with such a tiny run? Genuinely curious.
You can still get a complete collection by paying ebay price. It sucks but thats what I done for missing things like tickets and other limited release. if I somehow miss a release I have no problem with paying ebay price.
- Status