Dragonslayer_023
Banned
Sure it's an issue but come on, you got all those other games and you're whining about missing one? Some people don't have nearly as much as you, suck it up and pay ebay.
Limited Run Games - Putting digital games into your hands
- Thread starter dallow_bg
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Sure it's an issue but come on, you got all those other games and you're whining about missing one? Some people don't have nearly as much as you, suck it up and pay ebay.
sechsterangriff
Member
"Limited run" isn't just there as the name for the company, but it's the the basic concept behind their business model.
It's a limited run of games offered on a first come first served basis. When demand vastly outnumbers offer, even if everything works as it should, you're bound to risk not getting a copy. If you're that serious about collecting, paying ebay price shouldn't be a foreign concept to you. You should be glad you managed to get all games so far at base price.
foobarry81
Member
Lol.
You might want to consider adding "LRG defense force" to your avatar as well. ;-)
Reluctant-Hero
Member
sechsterangriff
Member
I don't understand. Somehow managing to get a item knowing beforehand that is of very limited availability at base price while there is overwhelming demand, should now be considered a given? Ever heard of supply and demand?
foobarry81
Member
Clearly you don't understand.
Him having been able to get all the previous releases has nothing to do with this particular release, and how it went badly for him. So he shouldn't be "glad because he managed to get those previous releases" and just shut up about this one.
If anything: him having bought all those previous games demonstrates he's a loyal customer, whose loyalty currently goes unrewarded. Not that he should be rewarded, but if you're going to drag previous releases in, you should take that into account as well.
Who are you to judge anyway? Maybe he IS glad that he got those previous releases from LRG directly. Doesn't mean he can't be deeply disappointed about this one.
Also, while you're so bravely defending LRG, consider this: it's the I-don't-know-how-many-'th release by LRG now and still this store is acting up with every single release. Of course Shopify is blamed for all of it time and again, and that's it. But what valiant knights in the LRG army such as yourself seem to forget is that it was LRG who chose this shopping system. It wasn't forced upon them, right? They probably had their reasons for it (e.g. it being cheaper than other systems).
But it continuously proves not to be up to the task, namely function properly within this unique business model that LRG stands for and which you happily refer to when defending LRG.
So let me repeat that for you: LRG chose a shopping system that proves to be not up to the task time and again to be able shift a couple of thousand copies with a couple of minutes. So yeah; clearly that is NOT LRG's responsibility. It's Shopify's fault, or even the customer's fault...
I'm all for cutting LRG some slack, because they're a two-man-team and people like them and what they're doing and everything. But that doesn't mean you should blindly accept anything they ever do (people do make mistakes) and that they are exempt from any blame at all.
tav7623
Member
3200 copies of just the game plus 500 copies of the game's soundtrack which breaks down to 2700 copies of the standalone game and 500 copies of the game/soundtrack bundle.
YianGaruga
Banned
I don't see how that at all helps with what I described? There would always have to be a cut off with pre-orders, be it 15 minutes, 15 hours or 15 days because at some point to you have to order the quantity that people bought. From then on there is a 1-2 month wait + delays because that's how long it takes to produce these games. But that changes nothing about the situation. The length of the pre-order period would have little impact on the number of ordered copies.
And no one wants to "enforce" small quantities. It's in no one's best interest. The ideal situation is for Everyone to get a copy, I don't see why a dev or LRG would ever print a smaller amount intentionally.
It has nothing to do with empathy, it's about looking at the situation from a broader perspective and not just looking out for your own interests.
Most people here see an issue with someone missing out on a game it sucks and shouldn't happen. But there are solutions to this that don't include changing everything LRG is doing. The bundle issues will be solved in the future by not having bundles anymore. Already an improvement.
The fact that so many people can't look past their own interests and that missing out on a cheap copy of a game causes these types of reactions is what makes this community look bad. We're not even 10 games into the project and people are ready to call the "experiment" a failure because they didn't get what they wanted this one time.
Yeah that's not true. Even if you have to spen $60, aftermarket copies will always exist.
Absolutely not true. Check the last few months of this thread, most previous releases went without a hitch. What happened to Söldner was directly caused by demand far outstripping supply.
The Shapesmith
Member
Lots of crying over things but I have had zero issues with LRG since I learned of their existence. I have gotten every game I have wanted just by being on the website at the appropriate times. Would I like OG Breach & Clear and Saturday Morning RPG? Hell yes! Is it LRG's fault I don't have them? Nope.
LRG's twitter just posted a picture of Rainbow Moon.
https://twitter.com/LimitedRunGames/status/759832475753443328
https://twitter.com/LimitedRunGames/status/759832475753443328
Yes! This is a game I really want. So I guess this means it's coming for August?
Edit: Yes it is, as per EastAsiaSoft's tweet.
Saoshyant
Member
It isn't that complicated, it's a simple matter of logistics and finances. Because they are a small business LRG can't spend non-existing money on printing more copies than those that will be sold. If they did and that would be something that would happen twice or even thrice in a row, they would go under easily. Not to mention they have no place to store unsold copies and renting/securing a warehouse for that is out of the question.
Keeping that in mind it isn't hard to understand why they are keeping the quantities for each game low. Sure, they could have done 5000 for Snolder, yeah, but doing a bad estimate for one game is another matter entirely than your suggestion that they should print way more copies than they do currently for every game.
sechsterangriff
Member
No it's you who clearly doesn't understand. I'm not defending anyone or anything. I'm criticizing this idea that somehow always getting a copy in this business model should be a given. It's a supply and demand issue and if demand is high someone will always end up empty handed. This has nothing to do with loyalty exactly because getting a particular release has nothing to do with getting the previous ones. I'm saying that because of supply and demand if he is a serious about collector he is lucky he managed to get all releases so far. It's about probability, if you want to take it as "judging", to each their own.
Of course having said that, while I have nothing against a first come first served policy, the store has to work and not allow for exploits. As much as this may be an issue with Shopify, LRG are ultimately responsible. They may be a two man team or what not, but they're a business. No excuses. No "please understand".
foobarry81
Member
So you're claiming this is the very first time you're reading about customers being confused when a copy that was in their basket, in the end really wasn't?
LOL!
When you pretty much blame that other guy for being entitled, clearly you're defending LRG, whether you want it or not. Because clearly they play their role in this whole thing just as well, only you chose to focus on that guy's part of the deal in stead.
That guy is in the situation he is, because the LRG shop tricked him into thinking he was going to get a copy. First come, first serve is fine and all, but the shop doesn't work properly, having you think you actually got hold of a copy when you don't really do.
You can't just ignore, like you did, that the shop doesn't work as it should, and claim "this is the policy, deal with it". If a policy isn't upheld (due to whatever reason, either technical or others), it's pretty much useless.
(And again: it's not up to you to tell the guy he should be happy he already got the other games That is just douchey.)
So you're repeating what I just said in my previous post. Clearly I'm the one who didn't understand, lol...
YianGaruga
Banned
My post was directly in response to printing less copies than were ordered in the hypothetical pre-order scenario. What you're saying doesn't apply here.
If they had the ability to perfectly predict demand, there would be no reason to print less copies than that.
I did not suggest that anywhere
No that's not what I said.
ROFL!
Again:
- The bundle was NOT up at the right time.
- The quantities of the bundle were decreasing BEFORE a button was actually available to buy. Clearly something was going on.
- Meanwhile, the regular edition sold out (I assume it did sell out in approximately 30 seconds, and wasn't a glitch)
- Both dark10x and myself clicked within the first 20 seconds and tried to check out and it didn't work. Maybe it sold out within 20 seconds, fair enough. But I could have gotten a copy if the bundle had been put up at the right time.
What happened with Soldner was NOT just about demand outstripping supply. There were other issues and factors, and this is what we were trying to talk about despite some people constantly trying to shut it down.
And it absolutely is about basic empathy. You guys are posting about people being "slow" and "crying" and being combative for absolutely no good reason. You say this is how limited items go, as if I haven't been in this thread from damned day ONE and don't know this. It's dismissive as hell. There's nothing wrong with letting us talk about the issues and give feedback. If you don't want to participate on that, feel free to only jump into the conversation when another topic comes up.
People get understandably annoyed, post here for some feedback and hopefully support, and instead some of you are instead dismissive and act annoyed that we have the gall to want to engage with the community in the first place when we don't succeed in getting a copy.
At least 25% of the stock bar for the Soldner bundle disappeared before the link was online, guaranteed. I watched it happen live and was constantly refreshing.
- The bundle was NOT up at the right time.
- The quantities of the bundle were decreasing BEFORE a button was actually available to buy. Clearly something was going on.
- Meanwhile, the regular edition sold out (I assume it did sell out in approximately 30 seconds, and wasn't a glitch)
- Both dark10x and myself clicked within the first 20 seconds and tried to check out and it didn't work. Maybe it sold out within 20 seconds, fair enough. But I could have gotten a copy if the bundle had been put up at the right time.
What happened with Soldner was NOT just about demand outstripping supply. There were other issues and factors, and this is what we were trying to talk about despite some people constantly trying to shut it down.
And it absolutely is about basic empathy. You guys are posting about people being "slow" and "crying" and being combative for absolutely no good reason. You say this is how limited items go, as if I haven't been in this thread from damned day ONE and don't know this. It's dismissive as hell. There's nothing wrong with letting us talk about the issues and give feedback. If you don't want to participate on that, feel free to only jump into the conversation when another topic comes up.
People get understandably annoyed, post here for some feedback and hopefully support, and instead some of you are instead dismissive and act annoyed that we have the gall to want to engage with the community in the first place when we don't succeed in getting a copy.
At least 25% of the stock bar for the Soldner bundle disappeared before the link was online, guaranteed. I watched it happen live and was constantly refreshing.
YianGaruga
Banned
Yes and they now know how it happened and it will be fixed.
A very small number of people abused it though, only 2 B&C bundles were sold before it went live.
Yeah I did see that as well. 25% of the bundle is still "only" ~40 people. This won't happen in the future, there are plenty of ways to fix it.
This 100%
Things did not work properly this time. Plain and simple.
The defense force isn't helping anybody.
djblackice
Member
I'm going to have fun looking for Breach & Clear on Vita for years to come, aren't I?
YianGaruga
Banned
Please don't just call people with different opinions than yours a defense force. We can have a discussion withough making this (like every other online debate) an "us vs them" thing.
THAT isn't helping anybody.
foobarry81
Member
Sure, bud.
In between all those releases, sometimes the store was fixed, and sometimes it wasn't... ;-)
The reason why I'm focusing on having just a little bit of empathy is because, like it or not, some of us have been into this since day one, and yeah it feels a little personal and it feels like we helped build it, at least in a very small part.
Day one post:
Yeah, I'm sure they already had something like it in mind, but part of the fun of LRG has been that it felt like a really receptive, open company that actually likes engaging with us and can actually take some feedback on different ways to do things, rethinking how to ship the games, etc. Can we please also air some grievances every now and then without getting shouted down?
Day one post:
Yeah, I'm sure they already had something like it in mind, but part of the fun of LRG has been that it felt like a really receptive, open company that actually likes engaging with us and can actually take some feedback on different ways to do things, rethinking how to ship the games, etc. Can we please also air some grievances every now and then without getting shouted down?
YianGaruga
Banned
Find me some people who had problems ordering Octodad, Futuridium, Xeodrifter, Lost Sea or B&C Deadline
I'll wait
foobarry81
Member
Almost funny.
Come on, don't be disingenuous now. You know very well this thing is an ongoing issue and that it was there from the start. It's not because people didn't want Octodad as badly and it took a while for it to sell out, that that software problem wasn't present.
You're bright enough to know (and admit) that it is inherent to Shopify, not to whatever demand there is or isn't for a certain game.
If you're going to be this irrational, I will keep calling you Grandmaster of the LRG Defense Force, just so you know. ;-) You've been warned!
LQX
Member
That's what bugs me. They knew people cheated the system and still did not halt the orders. I refuse to believe they assessed and fixed the problem that fast. This is the system they created for us to buy these games so it should be 100% on them to make sure it is fair for everyone trying to buy these games.
YianGaruga
Banned
At this point I'm not even debating if there's a shopify bug or not. No one has any hard proof for it, I can't find bug reports on shopify's forums, but people are obviously experiencing problems with ordering. So because no one here actually knows, let's talk about what we know.
LRG said they will work with shopify or even hire their own web developer. Sounds good to me, I trust them to fix whatever it is at some point.
In the meantime games that have had print runs big enough, practically every person that wanted a game was able to get one because it was up for a while. So accurately anticipating demand also helps.
I'm not sure what else there is to say or what you want me to concede. The Söldner situation sucked for everyone. People missed out, eastasiasoft sold less copies than they could have and LRG now has to deal with a ton of complaints. It'll have to improve, I never said it doesn't.
foobarry81
Member
Of course you aren't debating that, because that would be highly inconvenient for you.
LRG tweeted earlier that Shopify lets you add copies to your basket even when all copies are "reserved". So basically you are put in a queue, but your basket doesn't reflect that. It tricks you into thinking that you have actually reserved a copy.
So when you then checkout, and you don't actually have a reserved copy (a reservation apparently lasts for 5 mins, and is then passed on to the next one in the queue), you will get an out of stock message.
This is highly confusing and does anything but offer a satisfying shopping experience. It's pretty much broken by design.
The thing is that people have had problems with this shopping system from day one. Apparently it was never a priority. Had to go badly wrong first to actually consider doing something about it.
But all is well, Grandmaster. Keep doing what you do.
I think the real problem here is us customers voicing complaints to fans instad of shopowners. We should just state the issues, add suggestions if theres Any and leave it here for LRG to sift trough it providing they're actually interested in feedback.
No point in arguing with happy customers.
No point in arguing with happy customers.
YianGaruga
Banned
I don't know why you insist on making this about me. Is it possible to talk about this without personal jabs and namecalling?
The rest of your post is basically a strawman so whatever. If a copy is reserved upon putting it in the cart or when pressing checkout has little to do with the previous discussion. And I agree that reserving when putting it into the cart is the better system.
The fact that the preorder window is clearly defined would mean a lot less customer service hassle. If a customer missed the window : well, too bad, he'll have to wait and buy whatever surplus has been produced. If he preordered the game (no money involved at this point), and wants to opt out : he could at anytime do so without involving the customer service. And if he waits until payment is due, then his purchase is done for good and there's no way back.
It manages to create both a little sense of urgency for the customer (if you miss the window then you'll have to wait for the scraps and it's risky) AND a sense of security because you're assured to have your game if you keep track of the preorder windows. Plus from the LRG point of view they'll know roughly what they need to order. And it wouldn't weigh that much on customer service if it's automated well.
Great case of "it worked for me, thus it must have worked for everybody"
Agreed. "Defense force" is reminiscent of the whole "white knight" rhetoric and is just a nefarious way of dismissing one's opinion. Let's be better than that
EDIT : B&C Deadline PS4 is sold out
foobarry81
Member
It only has EVERYTHING to do with why people missed out on Söldner-X 2. But sure, keep ignoring all that's relevant. I mean, just look at which parts of my post you quoted.
Clearly you're not really interested in discussing this, as you keep diverting. Again here, by focusing on a so called strawman argument you seemingly detected, in stead of actually making it about how Shopify works and how that affected people's experience with the Söldner sale.
The constant diverting is why you get the kind of replies you got, btw: if you don''t take anything I said seriously (and continuously you haven't), it will be about you.
Anyway, at this point I don't want to discuss this any further with you anyway.
If they have been given proof of the system being broken and people being able to gain an advantage over others but with no way to track it down shouldn't they just cancel the orders and start over? Seems like the fairest way to distribute the copies without rewarding the people who gamed the system.
Noisepurge
Member
YianGaruga
Banned
I'm glad we agree on something
Pellegri Testament
Member
Cancel 3200 orders because some people may or may not have gamed the system? All that would do is piss off all the legitimate buyers (because there is no doubt more of them than people who abused the system) who now have to risk losing the copy they bought to someone else. That's not going to solve the issue of the demand for the game being vastly underestimated. All the whining in this thread the last 2 days isn't going to solve that issue for this release. What can be done though is this release can be used as a way to better judge demand for the future and work on fixing site issues so this problem doesn't come up again.
So, you would suggest taking an already volital customer service situation, due to a number of legitimately upset customers who missed out and blow it up into a bigger mess by screwing over the majority of normal customers in the hope to punish some who may have cheated the system? Yeah great idea. I'm guessing you fall into the group that missed out? This belief that cheaters were the only or even the majority of the orders is ridiculous.
blazeuk
Member
Again I'm not sure why they don't just have a subscription service to guarantee those who want the games get them, it would be easy enough to sell them as a "next 3 games subscription" within a certain window where we don't know exactly what we're going to get but we know there's not going to be any of these issues, hoping there aren't store problems or people trying to cheat the system somehow. It probably wouldn't be popular enough to cause print numbers to jump considerably but would at least ensure those who wanted a full collection could actually have one.
It's massively frustrating now having an incomplete vita collection and also missing a game I wanted because of store problems, I know a subscription thing was brought up before but it was done so in a weird way of charging extra for such a service that seemed to put most people off the idea, surely any additional costs involved in setting it up would be fairly minimal?
It's massively frustrating now having an incomplete vita collection and also missing a game I wanted because of store problems, I know a subscription thing was brought up before but it was done so in a weird way of charging extra for such a service that seemed to put most people off the idea, surely any additional costs involved in setting it up would be fairly minimal?
I agree, I have always been in favor of a subscription service or pre-orders or whatever. I too don't care what the games are and would love to just subscribe and not have to stress about it either. Don't make it the only option, but make it an option. It would take away a lot of legitimate complaints about missing out. Subscribe if you don't want to miss any releases. Take your chances with the rest if you don't want to commit to it. Options are never a bad thing. Do it like humble bundle does and just make it a monthly fee or something.
They have said they have no idea how many people used the glitch so it could have been a majority of users who got the advantage. So yes in fairness to the people who were cheated out of a copy I would say starting over would be the fairest option. My point had nothing to do with the demand it had to do with a glitch that was found and gave an unknown amount of people early access to the sales. Allowing them to push other legitimate users out of line. I really don't care out them underestimating demand they have been doing that since they started doing this. However the buggy store has always been a problem and now there is proof of people gaming the system. In this particular case they should start over and put everyone on equal footing.
No one knows how many people were able to purchase the games using the store exploit not even LRG. So it could be any number from 0-3200. The fact that a decent number of people had such an advantage should be taken into account.
People on this forum and others threw a shit fit over the idea of a membership. It would clearly solve a lot of the problems but it would also kill the prices on the resell market and that's what many collectors care about now.
Just as to why this sucks, because a game that sells out quickly you will miss out on.
With SMRPG I tried to get the bundle. Website said they had 25% left or something so added it to the cart. Go to checkout and I can't. Go back and the item still shows as available so I try again. Same results. Then I move onto the game only option and luckily it is still there. If that game sold out as fast as Soldner X I wouldn't have been able to get a copy solely because the system is obtuse.
Yes, if the item is available it should reserve it until you check out. If there are none remaining that are not reserved in carts it should say temporarily out or something until all items have finished checking out. When all the check outs are done it could say sold out. The information could also be available somewhere to find instead of finding out in a thread on a different forum, maybe on the main page or something.
Pellegri Testament
Member
The problem with a sub service as it's been pointed out in the past, is that not all their releases will be the same price or that they'll even have the same amount of releases every month. A sub would only work if the price and release numbers were static, which due to manufacturing delays (monthly releases) and bigger/smaller releases (price), it's not something that could be done.
Pissing off their customers really would not look good after this debacle, you know that right? Starting over on it is a good way to make yourself look bad to any new customers that wanted the game and it makes returning customers start to doubt you. You may not care about them underestimating demand, but in the end, starting over would do nothing because of that. People would still miss out and it would have a high potential of screwing the people who didn't game the system.
Make it, say, a $200 service, you are up for renewal once the $200 runs out.
They would be able to know exactly how many subscribers they have at any given point in advance of printing copies, how many copies subscribers would get for whatever release is next, and go from there.
$200, upfront, no refunds. Renew once your "LRG bank account" goes below the value of one game.
I would do $75 or $100 a month for a year. If they went under that give me a discount on the next year, over just let me know before they would (the month before my money would not equal the price of games shipped let me know that I need to add to it)
They would probably end up ahead on this, with most months having money before the game is out.
It could easily be done it would just involve people paying a membership fee separate from the price of the item. Them when they have prices set the members pay for their copies. LRG then runs a certain amount for general release and sale those as normal. The push back was solely on the effect it would have on the resell market.
Customers are already pissed off because they couldn't get a copy because of the buggy system and this exploit. It would reset the odds for everyone back to a level playing field. I wonder how many people in this thread used the glitch to assure they had a copy. Anyone willing to fess up since LRG has gone on record to say they won't punish anyone for this exploit? I would like to know just how many people knew about it and used it.
Nice, so this is the next release? They still haven't announced what the metroidvania title they're releasing for August is, right?
If the "Account bank" idea is not desired, some record labels do VIP subscription services with incredible success:
https://www.joyfulnoiserecordings.com/pages/vip-membership
Which is basically a more robust version of this idea:
https://www.joyfulnoiserecordings.com/pages/vip-membership
Which is basically a more robust version of this idea:
Yeah Third Man's is great as well. Basically assures everyone who wants one will get a copy. But again most collector's don't want that because it will kill the value of their limited item.
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