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[Massa]

They explain it well in the Wayland FAQ. Basically it will support remote rendering but you won't have to pay the price for it if you're not using it.

 

[zoku88]

They explain it well in the Wayland FAQ. Basically it will support remote rendering but you won't have to pay the price for it if you're not using it.

Huh?

Didn't they say "no, we don't support it", as in you would need to run another server on top of it?

EDIT: But I guess it depends on what you mean by "support".

 

[Elfforkusu]

As long as it doesn't harm the single greatest killer app that Linux gives me -- being able to run individual applications remotely -- I won't have much of a problem with this.

Out of curiousity, what does X give you in that regard that RDP doesn't? I expect there's something, but I honestly haven't used X remotely enough to what that might be.

Most of the shit that needed replacing in X that was from the days of shit being networked and crap have all been rewritten out by now anyways. Plus it's been around so we know it works.

I mean I get the sentiment, but IDK we only have so many "man hours" to get shit done in the open source world and I can't help but think their time might be better spent else where.

I sincerely mean it when I say I hope I'm wrong and just being a pessimist though.

You just essentially described X, by which I mean to say that the whole thing needs to be rewritten to replace all that stuff that needs replacing. It's a broad, sprawling, (unintentionally) overambitious piece of software. It needs to die, in the same way that the graphics calls in the windows kernel need to die, though for "dear god why is this so complicated?" reasons VS windows' "dear god why can displaying a picture get a virus root access?".

X is the single biggest weakness (I'd argue over even proprietary vendor drivers) in the linux world right now. I'm not going to call it a piece of shit, but I would if it were designed to do what it's being used for. As it is, the current linux graphical stack is the equivalent of the Apollo 13 ducttape + sock + mismatched filter contraption they threw together to get the astronauts home. A rewrite is long overdue.

I'm sure the eventual Wayland stack will support the networking stuff, because people like it and use it. They're also 100% correct (not willing to consider this a matter of opinion, simpler is better) to limit the scope of Wayland proper.

 

[GameplayWhore]

Out of curiousity, what does X give you in that regard that RDP doesn't? I expect there's something, but I honestly haven't used X remotely enough to what that might be.

I don't really know all that much about RDP. I know that running X apps over ssh is really easy in a default install of most operating systems.

How exactly does RDP work?

 

[Massa]

Huh?

Didn't they say "no, we don't support it", as in you would need to run another server on top of it?

EDIT: But I guess it depends on what you mean by "support".

You could do with a server (including an X11 server) or you could put it in a Wayland compositor.

The reason remote rendering is not defined in the protocol is because they don't lose anything by doing it this way and it keeps things simple. Xorg is a bloated mess, Wayland's goal is to be the exact opposite.

 

[zoku88]

You could do with a server (including an X11 server) or you could put it in a Wayland compositor.

The reason remote rendering is not defined in the protocol is because they don't lose anything by doing it this way and it keeps things simple. Xorg is a bloated mess, Wayland's goal is to be the exact opposite.

Yea, I'm just saying, it's not correct to say that it "supports" it, since it isn't defined in the protocol. So, I just felt it was strange when you said it does "support" it.


Speaking of wayland, I find it interesting that it uses openGL ES instead of just the full openGL. I guess they said the reasoning for that was because openGL has X dependencies, right?

 

[Elfforkusu]

I don't really know all that much about RDP. I know that running X apps over ssh is really easy in a default install of most operating systems.

How exactly does RDP work?

If you've used any of the GoToMyPC/Meeting/etc or logged into a windows machine remotely, it's that. If you've used VNC, it's just like that except it doesn't suck.

Otherwise: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_Desktop_Protocol
Basically you get an application window (which most RDP clients let you fullscreen) whose contents are the remote computer's UI. Performance is pretty solid.

My reason for bringing it up is that, whether Wayland supports X-style remote functionality or not (I'd wager it will, though probably not right away), it'll definitely support RDP or something just like it.

 

[GameplayWhore]

If you've used any of the GoToMyPC/Meeting/etc or logged into a windows machine remotely, it's that. If you've used VNC, it's just like that except it doesn't suck.

Otherwise: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_Desktop_Protocol
Basically you get an application window (which most RDP clients let you fullscreen) whose contents are the remote computer's UI. Performance is pretty solid.

My reason for bringing it up is that, whether Wayland supports X-style remote functionality or not (I'd wager it will, though probably not right away), it'll definitely support RDP or something just like it.

That's not what I'm looking for, though. I want to do something like typing "runfromhome firefox"* in my run dialog or a terminal, and have it start up firefox on the remote machine but as if it were on the local machine, not in a self-contained desktop-in-a-window.



* that's actually what I do, except I used firefox as an example, because it's a familiar app.


edit: The link describes a mode that is similar, though.

 

[Massa]

Yea, I'm just saying, it's not correct to say that it "supports" it, since it isn't defined in the protocol. So, I just felt it was strange when you said it does "support" it.


Speaking of wayland, I find it interesting that it uses openGL ES instead of just the full openGL. I guess they said the reasoning for that was because openGL has X dependencies, right?

You're right about that, Wayland itself doesn't support remote rendering. What I was trying to say is that it makes it possible to use that on top of it.

And you're also right about OpenGL, the full blown implementation in Mesa is too tied to X.

 

[zoku88]

You're right about that, Wayland itself doesn't support remote rendering. What I was trying to say is that it makes it possible to use that on top of it.

And you're also right about OpenGL, the full blown implementation in Mesa is too tied to X.

I don't really know much about OpenGL or OpenGL ES. Do they lose much by using ES and not the regular version (assuming that the regular version changes so that it isn't X dependent?)

 

[Elfforkusu]

That's not what I'm looking for, though. I want to do something like typing "runfromhome firefox"* in my run dialog or a terminal, and have it start up firefox on the remote machine but as if it were on the local machine, not in a self-contained desktop-in-a-window.



* that's actually what I do, except I used firefox as an example, because it's a familiar app.


edit: The link describes a mode that is similar, though.

Ok, I get it. That's what I was guessing, but I wasn't sure.

 

[Vanillalite]

Wayland doesn't support forwarding AFAIK. It'll require a lot more work to accomplish it or I think you can run an X server on top of Wayland to make forwarding possible. I'm not too enthusiastic about Wayland since it's more of a stripped down Xorg-lite.

I think that's the point though. I think X to some has gotten to bloated, and to really fix and update things as someone else said it might need a full scale rewrite from the ground up anyways. Wayland is suppose to be lite as it's newer and not bogged down with years of code.

It also might not be as feature rich, but so long as it's modular I'd say that's a good thing. Nothing worse than something big and feature rich, but overkill for most people so it takes up resources while not being fully utilized.

 

[TouchMyBox]

So I've been getting about 1/10th the games performance in stock ubuntu 12.04 than I do in windows 7 with a GTX 670.

I tried out Unity 2D just for shits and giggles, now games run about half as well as they run in windows, and the desktop is really snappy and animations are smooth.

What.

 

[Massa]

I don't really know much about OpenGL or OpenGL ES. Do they lose much by using ES and not the regular version (assuming that the regular version changes so that it isn't X dependent?)

I don't think they lose much but it's certainly desirable to have full OpenGL support. ES is still "good enough" for a lot of things though, including most games. Playstation consoles use a variation of OpenGL ES.

So I've been getting about 1/10th the games performance in stock ubuntu 12.04 than I do in windows 7 with a GTX 670.

I tried out Unity 2D just for shits and giggles, now games run about half as well as they run in windows, and the desktop is really snappy and animations are smooth.

What.

Were you playing games in full screen? Also, are you using proprietary drivers?

 

[TouchMyBox]

Were you playing games in full screen? Also, are you using proprietary drivers?

Yes, and Yes. 304.37 (the newest drivers) Regarding nvidia drivers, I can't seem to get rid of screen tearing whether I have vsync enabled or not, and the maximum performance level in the nvidia x-settings panel reads out 705MHz, when in windows the same performance level is 1050 Mhz.

I heard people talking about disabling twin-view and configuring compiz's framerate manually instead of having it auto detect to fix unity 3d issues. I disabled twin-view, and I installed the compiz control panel but I didn't have any options in it regarding refresh rates.

Meanwhile, I installed XFCE and Cinnamon and am trying those out at the moment.

 

[Elfforkusu]

So I've been getting about 1/10th the games performance in stock ubuntu 12.04 than I do in windows 7 with a GTX 670.

I tried out Unity 2D just for shits and giggles, now games run about half as well as they run in windows, and the desktop is really snappy and animations are smooth.

What.

That's more extreme than I thought it was, but Unity (3D) really is slow as poop. It's awful.

Spoiler

XFCE future!

 

[TouchMyBox]

I finally got rid of tearing by disabling composite by doing "nvidia-xconfig --no-composite"

Is anybody familiar with this issue? It's kind of a shame if I have to give up cool GUI stuff in order to have standard 3D performance.

 

[GameplayWhore]

I finally got rid of tearing by disabling composite by doing "nvidia-xconfig --no-composite"

Is anybody familiar with this issue? It's kind of a shame if I have to give up cool GUI stuff in order to have standard 3D performance.

Whoops, I've actually made this suggestion on a similar problem recently but blanked on doing so this time!

You probably have the option of either (A) temporarily disabling compositing while you're logged in when you start a game and resuming it when you're done, or (B) running a separate, simultaneous X session dedicated to gaming and switching back and forth in the usual manner (Ctrl-Alt-F7/F8).

 

[pants]

Is there any client that would let me seamlessly RDP to my work Windows 7 machine without too much fuss?

 

[GameplayWhore]

Is there any client that would let me seamlessly RDP to my work Windows 7 machine without too much fuss?

There are a whole bunch. A quick look online suggests that Remmina is pretty great. I personally use krdc, but I don't use it for rdp.

(edit: unless there's something particularly special with Windows 7 that makes it specifically more difficult that I'm not aware of)

 

[pants]

There are a whole bunch. A quick look online suggests that Remmina is pretty great. I personally use krdc, but I don't use it for rdp.

(edit: unless there's something particularly special with Windows 7 that makes it specifically more difficult that I'm not aware of)

It's the same RDP as Vista and XP I believe, the last thing holding me back is windows connectivity as I have to work from home often.

 

[Massa]

I finally got rid of tearing by disabling composite by doing "nvidia-xconfig --no-composite"

Is anybody familiar with this issue? It's kind of a shame if I have to give up cool GUI stuff in order to have standard 3D performance.

You shouldn't have to disable Composite to get decent performance. Which environment are you using now that you've disabled it, and how did games perform on that same environment before?

Performance for OpenGL apps may suffer a bit under compiz if they're not running in full screen (and in some cases full screen isn't correctly detected so it's not enough). However, even under XFCE, Unity 2D and others you should benefit from the Composite extension. It's just not OpenGL-accelerated compositing.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

My Linuxistas, I forgot to mention that last Thursday I got my Linode running~

Chose Ubuntu 12.04. Stability isn't entirely important to me right now and I can migrate later on to Debian if I need to.

Still want to give Cent OS a shot in the future.

 

[TouchMyBox]

You shouldn't have to disable Composite to get decent performance. Which environment are you using now that you've disabled it, and how did games perform on that same environment before?

Performance for OpenGL apps may suffer a bit under compiz if they're not running in full screen (and in some cases full screen isn't correctly detected so it's not enough). However, even under XFCE, Unity 2D and others you should benefit from the Composite extension. It's just not OpenGL-accelerated compositing.

FPS is only unacceptable in Unity 3D. Using cinnamon and unity 2d yields smooth framerates, but with tearing at the top of the screen in all games (and bastion seems like a stuttery mess on top of the tearing). Disabling composite in the xorg.conf restricts me to the classic gnome desktop which I'm guessing is 2.x and has no tearing problems. I've tinkered around with every suggested workaround which I found while googling in Compiz Settings Manager and none of them make any difference. Others suggest that it is a problem which specifically affects nvidia hardware.

Whoops, I've actually made this suggestion on a similar problem recently but blanked on doing so this time!

You probably have the option of either (A) temporarily disabling compositing while you're logged in when you start a game and resuming it when you're done, or (B) running a separate, simultaneous X session dedicated to gaming and switching back and forth in the usual manner (Ctrl-Alt-F7/F8).

I remember doing this in 2004 to play counter-strike source. If I remember correctly, you run a program from a terminal and specify a second X screen?

 

[GameplayWhore]

I remember doing this in 2004 to play counter-strike source. If I remember correctly, you run a program from a terminal and specify a second X screen?

In the old days, you would log into a vtty and type something like

startx -- :1

These days, you just use your Desktop Environment's normal "switch user" function, though you can still use the same old magic key combo to swap between the two.

 

[Elfforkusu]

Is there any client that would let me seamlessly RDP to my work Windows 7 machine without too much fuss?

Remmina. (formerly known as grdc)

I use it all the time for XP/2008 stuff at work.

 

[Pctx]

My Linuxistas, I forgot to mention that last Thursday I got my Linode running~

Chose Ubuntu 12.04. Stability isn't entirely important to me right now and I can migrate later on to Debian if I need to.

Still want to give Cent OS a shot in the future.

Good to hear. What's your site so I can run backtrack on it?

 

[ThatObviousUser]

candlepin.co

What's backtrack?

 

[luiztfc]

Hey folks.

I've never used Linux in my life and I really want to try it (though I have no programming experience).

I read the OP but I'm afraid to download an obsolete distro. Which one would you recommend to me as a beginner?

Thanks!

 

[zoku88]

Hey folks.

I've never used Linux in my life and I really want to try it (though I have no programming experience).

I read the OP but I'm afraid to download an obsolete distro. Which one would you recommend to me as a beginner?

Thanks!

What do you plan on doing?

Do you just want something easy and ready to use with no hassle?

Or do you want to go more in-depth and set up mostly everything for yourself?

Also, do you have something else that can access that internet?

 

[Sye d'Burns]

Hey folks.

I've never used Linux in my life and I really want to try it (though I have no programming experience).

I read the OP but I'm afraid to download an obsolete distro. Which one would you recommend to me as a beginner?

Thanks!

http://www.ubuntu.com is probably the easiest way to dip your toes in the water.

 

[luiztfc]

What do you plan on doing?

Do you just want something easy and ready to use with no hassle?

Or do you want to go more in-depth and set up mostly everything for yourself?

Also, do you have something else that can access that internet?

I'd like to go more in-depth, but I'm aware of my limitations... so I guess I should start with something more easy (Ubuntu as suggested by Sye, btw, thanks!). And yeah, I do have a laptop by me, but I wanted to install it on my desktop.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

Install Ubuntu.

Then install Gnome Shell from the Software Center.

Log out, select Gnome on the login screen, login. Voila. You now have the best Linux experience available.

 

[zoku88]

I'd like to go more in-depth, but I'm aware of my limitations... so I guess I should start with something more easy (Ubuntu as suggested by Sye, btw, thanks!). And yeah, I do have a laptop by me, but I wanted to install it on my desktop.

If you want to go in-depth, I would look at Arch Linux's wiki page for installing.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Installation_Guide

^If that seems too difficult, then I guess Ubuntu is fine.

As far as Desktop Environments go, I suggest just install a lot of them when you first install your system.

I would recommend trying Gnome 3, KDE, MATE, and awesome. Or just go on those wikipedia pages and look at them yourself.

 

[Polari]

I just checked out elementary's new version which they're still developing. Impressive in its responsiveness but seems woefully incomplete. I can't imagine they'll get a release out this year. Also they ape OS X/iOS waaaay too hard in places. One to keep an eye on though - their Pantheon desktop is pretty nice albeit very OS X like.

 

[itxaka]

candlepin.co

What's backtrack?

Linux distro for penetration testers. Also has a badass wallpaper (sarcasm)

 

[LaneDS]

Does anyone have, or is going for, an RHCSA cert? My bosses let me know I'm going to be going in for some official RHEL training, and I'm trying to decide on which course I should take. If anyone has experience with this cert (or I suppose the RHCT/RHCE ones that existed previously) and has a good reference, online or otherwise, to recommend I'd appreciate it.

 

[GameplayWhore]

If you want to go in-depth, I would look at Arch Linux's wiki page for installing.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Installation_Guide

^If that seems too difficult, then I guess Ubuntu is fine.

As far as Desktop Environments go, I suggest just install a lot of them when you first install your system.

I would recommend trying Gnome 3, KDE, MATE, and awesome. Or just go on those wikipedia pages and look at them yourself.

Best answer right here. The whole point of Linux and similar systems is that it gives you unparalleled choice and customization.

Also, XFCE and LXDE are nice, clean environments to play with. After you get your hat wet, if you decide you really like the "playground" aspect of Linux, you could mess with Enlightenment and ratpoison.

 

[Massa]

FPS is only unacceptable in Unity 3D. Using cinnamon and unity 2d yields smooth framerates, but with tearing at the top of the screen in all games (and bastion seems like a stuttery mess on top of the tearing). Disabling composite in the xorg.conf restricts me to the classic gnome desktop which I'm guessing is 2.x and has no tearing problems. I've tinkered around with every suggested workaround which I found while googling in Compiz Settings Manager and none of them make any difference. Others suggest that it is a problem which specifically affects nvidia hardware.

Compiz not working is honestly not that surprising, it's pretty much an unmaintained mess. However, you shouldn't have to disable the Composite extension to get rid of tearing when you're using Unity 2D or other non-OpenGL environments.

Are you using multiple monitors? That's the only other thing I can think of.

Best answer right here. The whole point of Linux and similar systems is that it gives you unparalleled choice and customization.

Also, XFCE and LXDE are nice, clean environments to play with. After you get your hat wet, if you decide you really like the "playground" aspect of Linux, you could mess with Enlightenment and ratpoison.

I don't quite agree. I think the whole point of Linux is to be a good system. If you want to customize every nook and cranny it's certainly possible, but if you want to just use it and have things just work that also works. My family are all Linux users and they don't even know what Gnome is, they just know that they have "fancy iPad like stuff" now (my mom was thrilled to see gnome-shell's overview effect on her 2004 laptop).

I'd personally give the best answer award to...

Install Ubuntu.

Then install Gnome Shell from the Software Center.

Log out, select Gnome on the login screen, login. Voila. You now have the best Linux experience available.

This!
(Or just go straight to this one. )

 

[itxaka]

Does anyone have, or is going for, an RHCSA cert? My bosses let me know I'm going to be going in for some official RHEL training, and I'm trying to decide on which course I should take. If anyone has experience with this cert (or I suppose the RHCT/RHCE ones that existed previously) and has a good reference, online or otherwise, to recommend I'd appreciate it.

Wow, didn't even know that is divided now. I have the RHCE from Red Hat 5.

I used this book: RHCE Red Hat Certified Engineer Linux (Exam RH302) to study plus lots and lots of actual working time with a Red at/linux distro. The book is good as it covers everything and helps a lot with any doubts you have, but the real thing is working with it.

Get some virtualization software and install a red hat/centos distro. Touch it, break it, fix it, reinstall it. Get to know it because that is gonna help much more than a book or a course (Official courses were 3000€ and 5 days, nobody from the courses approved when I did the exam, only people without courses like me)

In guess that the closer book to the one I used is now this: RHCSA/RHCE Red Hat Linux Certification Study Guide (Exams EX200 & EX300), 6th Edition

You can also check the official Red Hat Enterprise documentation which covers most of what is done on the exam.

Let me know if you need more info regarding it

 

[LaneDS]

Wow, didn't even know that is divided now. I have the RHCE from Red Hat 5.

I used this book: RHCE Red Hat Certified Engineer Linux (Exam RH302) to study plus lots and lots of actual working time with a Red at/linux distro. The book is good as it covers everything and helps a lot with any doubts you have, but the real thing is working with it.

Get some virtualization software and install a red hat/centos distro. Touch it, break it, fix it, reinstall it. Get to know it because that is gonna help much more than a book or a course (Official courses were 3000€ and 5 days, nobody from the courses approved when I did the exam, only people without courses like me)

In guess that the closer book to the one I used is now this: RHCSA/RHCE Red Hat Linux Certification Study Guide (Exams EX200 & EX300), 6th Edition

You can also check the official Red Hat Enterprise documentation which covers most of what is done on the exam.

Let me know if you need more info regarding it

Thanks for that post, very informative. We actually had a copy of the book that you used around here, which I had taken home and started (slowly) working my way through... I figure if you get good at RHEL5, it isn't going to be much of a leap to get good at RHEL6 or whatever the RHCSA focuses on mostly.

I do a fair bit of working with the OS on the job, but it's more me fumbling through things than anything, so if my company wants to cough up training money than the courses (I'm hoping) will help reduce the amount of fumbling, but I'm going to focus on the book and essentially what you suggested (break it, fix it) for a couple months before taking the course + exam.

Thanks again though! This thread is good for lurking and absorbing info, for sure.

 

[zoku88]

I don't quite agree. I think the whole point of Linux is to be a good system. If you want to customize every nook and cranny it's certainly possible, but if you want to just use it and have things just work that also works. My family are all Linux users and they don't even know what Gnome is, they just know that they have "fancy iPad like stuff" now (my mom was thrilled to see gnome-shell's overview effect on her 2004 laptop).

I don't really think there is a unified 'point' (unless you meant Linux as in the kernel.) Everyone wants something different and people like different things.

I think it's important to try different things and then decide what you like rather than to have someone just give you a certain experience and not being aware of what your options are.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

OMFG at Gnome 3.6.

I’m more excited about this release than any since 3.0. The list of major updates is impressive: new message tray, updated Activities Overview, lock screen, integrated input sources, accessibility on by default, new Nautilus. Then there are all the small changes: new style modal dialogs, bags of improvements to System Settings, a new Empathy buddy list, SkyDrive support, natural scrolling, new backgrounds, an overhauled Baobab… the list goes on and on.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHh I finally found the setting in Gnome! "Shift with numpad keys works as in MS Windows." Finally I can shift+end/home to select the whole line!

You have no idea how crazy that was driving me.

 

[Dimmuxx]

OMFG at Gnome 3.6.

And http://gnomebuntu.org/ is official.

 

[Massa]

I don't really think there is a unified 'point' (unless you meant Linux as in the kernel.) Everyone wants something different and people like different things.

I think it's important to try different things and then decide what you like rather than to have someone just give you a certain experience and not being aware of what your options are.

Sure, it's nice to know that there are options. I just don't think going around trying every window manager someone could think of is for everyone (and might take more than a year if you take it literally.. heh). It depends on what a person wants out of the new system they're trying. Usually I recommend having a full meal instead of tasting a little of everything right off the gate.

For someone that does want to try them all though I'd recommend playing with a live CD first. Personally I don't like the idea of having multiple large suites installed on a single system.

As for Arch. I'm actually running it right now on a machine that I broke trying out Fedora 18, and while I enjoy it for what it is I don't think someone completely new to Linux would be able to appreciate it for what it does well.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

And http://gnomebuntu.org/ is official.

YES

YES

 

[Vanillalite]

YES

YES

I figured you'd be doing backflips with this announcement.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

Gnome 3.6 + Gnomebuntu = GNOME REVENGEANCE

All it needs is better multi-monitor support and Adwaita Dark included (and hopefully, the default) and it would be perfect. P E R F E C T.

Gnome 3 taking Linux back from the dirty Unity communists.

 

[Automatisch]

I'm actually really excited now for 12.10 since the Gnome spin will be "pure".