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Love Boat [Mafia] |OT| Till Death Do Us Part

B

Burbeting

Banned
Time for the Game Awards! Love Bear is giving multiple ones this time ^^.

Town Solo MVP - Ty4on
Even though Ty4on was not right in many of his suspicions, he was always trying his damnest with the game, and trying to scum hunt no matter what, which I enjoy seeing, even if the targets themselves weren’t always scum. What’s most important in games is to contribute and try your best, even if you might not have a 100% Scum hit rate.

Town Pair MVP - Karkador & Zippedpinhead
Both fairly active players, and even though their gambits were bornerline insane at parts, it’s undeniably they played a huge part in catching all of the scum pairs, so I do think this award is more than deserved. They both also used the Lover Chat mechanic quite a lot, which I was happy to see.

Scum Solo MVP - Kyanrute
He was a new player, but me and all of the other mods were very surprised at how very competent he was, and we were thinking he could very well win the game for scum, even though rest of the Scum was lynched fairly early from the game. Sadly he didn’t quite make it, but nevertheless gave up an admirable fight until the very end.

Scum Pair MVP - Coppanuva & Flame_AC
The most active people in the scum chat by far, and also trying to figure out more and more plans as game went on, it was sad that these two were lynched fairly early-ish in Day 4.

Best Usage of the Lover Chat - Sophia & Ty4on
I’m putting Sophia instead of Hobohodo for a reason. Even though Sophia dropped out in D2, she and Ty4on took advantage of the Lover Chat as much as they could, which I was happy to see after surprisingly many ordinary pairs didn’t use it all that much at all. Good job!

and finally

Most Unnecessary Gambit - Operation Hydro Canon (aka no Night Kill N1)
There were so many unnecessary gambits in this game, that this award had to be given. And the victory goes for the Scum team’s plan to not submit a night kill during the first night. Seriously guys, why?
 
S

Sophia

Member
Burbeting said:
Best Usage of the Lover Chat - Sophia & Ty4on
I’m putting Sophia instead of Hobohodo for a reason. Even though Sophia dropped out in D2, she and Ty4on took advantage of the Lover Chat as much as they could, which I was happy to see after surprisingly many ordinary pairs didn’t use it all that much at all. Good job!
Click to expand...

Even though I didn't get to finish with him due to my own personal issues, I honestly could not have asked for a better partner. We unknowingly read Flame/Coppa as scum on day 1 thanks to this. <3
 
B

Burbeting

Banned
My thoughts on the game:

The game started off with a blasting first two days, that's for sure. Nobody can say that there was no twists and turns, with multiple claims, Trackerdome, vote leaders switching seemingly very randomly and the like. The Scum team got to a bad start with their Miller-Tracker claim, but that was mostly due to the fact the there was a town tracker together with a scum one, so that they ended up burning themselves in the process.

After third day began, the game got lot slower, but the pace was never obnoxiously slow, except maybe on day 5/6 at parts. I think both sides had a decent chance of winning this game, and the game went until MYLO without even spec thread knowing for sure what side would emerge victorious, so that's nice.

One thing I wasn't completely happy about, was the intensive use of Metagaming at some parts of this game. Specifically the Miller claim, and how Crab-scale was used to combat it, as frankly, I would have kept the game 5/10 even if it had a miller.

---

Balancing wise, I think the neutral could have been tweaked a little. I tried my best to make sure it does not act like a cop, but in the end it kinda did act that way. If scum had been hit by the Disruption, they would have given plenty of tools to convincinly fake claim a hit, because yeah, it wouldn't have worked on scum.

The Lover Chat mechanic was a decent success. Many pairs did use it a lot, but some did not really post in it that much, and I don't know if they just thought it was a hindrance.

---

But now, I'd like to hear what you guys have to think about the game :).
 
K

Kawl_USC

Member
Why couldn't we hold all these gambits??

Still wouldn't change a thing. Only way it could have been a better no kill night 1 was if town hadn't had a doctor for mass confusion.

Blarg shined so bright that I shied away like a chump, my only regret. My clamming up didn't do us any favors day 2.
 
B

Burbeting

Banned
Also, from Bowlie:

ahKfZsw.png
 
H

Hyperactivity

Banned
Hey guys

Millers aren't even remotely bastard roles, unless you think Godfathers are too

Millers are only bastard roles if the miller is unaware of their position as that
 
K

Kawl_USC

Member
Hyperactivity said:
Hey guys

Millers aren't even remotely bastard roles, unless you think Godfathers are too

Millers are only bastard roles if the miller is unaware of their position as that
Click to expand...

I think they are by definition. It involves the moderator lying to someone essentially. They are the tamest form of bastard but bastard all the same.

I mean technically you could word it to say your investigation came back scum or something like that but that's just a technicality to not be "really" lying.
 
S

Sorian

Banned
Burbeting said:
Most Unnecessary Gambit - Operation Hydro Canon (aka no Night Kill N1)
There were so many unnecessary gambits in this game, that this award had to be given. And the victory goes for the Scum team’s plan to not submit a night kill during the first night. Seriously guys, why?
Click to expand...

Nah, this strat was sound and could have decimated under the right conditions. If I had to choose I would pick one of the two unnecessary cop claims :p
 
K

Kyanrute

Member
Scum thread readers will know that I complained about balance but at the same time they should know that my whine might not have been that serious. Looking at the game now, I don't feel that much of a urge to swear at the bear on the weighing scale.

Some of things to talk about, all offered from a first-time player's perspective.

Shit went wrong on night 0. The claim was the crux of all our problems I feel. Yet I don't see much wrong with the claim nor with the idea behind it. The fear of the cop was justified and I think Blawl would've indeed made a fine target for a cop check, claim or no claim. Yet we measured the meta wrong and in my opinion chose to play it too safe, when I think we could've concluded from our knowledge that there wouldn't be a cop in the game. So umm, fuck cops as a role I guess? There were some other misplays here too I feel, like HYDRO CANON, keeping Zippedor alive and not looking for the doctor sooner than we did. I feel this all was for good though, if only to have proof that gambits ain't always worth that much. And the shit was fun, especially the insane parts.

I am not sure what I feel about the neutrals. Since they weren't actually a pseudo-cop, I can't whine about them either. But certainly, they were more of a hindrance to scum than town at the end of the day, simply because of the uncertainty how da bomb interacted with scum. Could they be described as a swingy role then? Perhaps. My immediate feel after the game is that the role should've been scrapped completely because of the unpredictability, but that, I would say, is the whole point of neutrals, ain't it? I am torn somewhat.

Fuck day one. That shit is stupid and completely anti-fun. Fuck day one. People ramble about nonsense how person x is playing differently compared to a game that was played decades ago. How the fuck can that be evidence of anything? My gut says person y is scum. How can you argue about that when that is just a feeling? Next game I play I will say that sky is blue, that seems worth as much. And then there is three million of these posts. And then people ask you to judge others based on their opinions whether the bear does or does not shit in the woods. The only fun part of day one was at the end and that made me laugh.

The metagaming somewhat ties into the previous part. Using other games as evidence of anything felt annoying to me as a new player, as I felt I had no chance to discuss the matters unless I did a 50-page review of all of the past games. I felt like a outsider at some times. The other meta things did not affect myself that much, like the what's your chat number bit, but I understand why it is bad for the game. I feel the flavor-quoting is more of a game-maker's thing to look out for, as even though you can tell the players about the horrors of the forbidden fruit, they will continue to desire it.

Overall a game of highs and lows. Was fun. Cheers to the Bear and other mods and to rest of the scum, especially to Retroid who helped me to counter-balance myself. Special thanks to random.org.
 
S

*Splinter

Member
Booo Hyperkitty deserved MVP. Survived ages, ACTUALLY SAVED SOMEONE :OOOO and played well throughout

But anyway, gg all :D

Kark/Zip pay no attention to the PAGES AND PAGES of salt in the spec thread. Also you are both terrible x
 
S

*Splinter

Member
Actual comments:

The neutral has already been mentioned, but yeah I guess you underestimated how much the bomb targets would be "confirmed". I think it would have been even worse if scum had been hit and confirmed in this way. Yeah it would technically be town's own fault but I think that would have been a really unsatisfying second half of the game with scum cleared and just waiting for the win.

Also didn't like the inconsistent role names:
-Pair of ordinary lovers
-Pair of sleepwalkers
-One True Pairing
I guess that's "my fault" for meta gaming? But yeah, this is the only reason I lynched NeverTim D1. It also confused me on Flux' claim since (from my point of view) Role cop = name cop.

That's only a slight niggle, the game was great and I loved the pairs mechanic (although maybe it's slightly responsible for the game getting so quiet toward the end? I also think it leads to more tunneling than usual, but that's an observation rather than complaint).

Gg, thanks Burb
 
C

CzarTim

Member
Kyanrute said:
Fuck day one. That shit is stupid and completely anti-fun. Fuck day one. People ramble about nonsense how person x is playing differently compared to a game that was played decades ago. How the fuck can that be evidence of anything? My gut says person y is scum. How can you argue about that when that is just a feeling? Next game I play I will say that sky is blue, that seems worth as much. And then there is three million of these posts. And then people ask you to judge others based on their opinions whether the bear does or does not shit in the woods. The only fun part of day one was at the end and that made me laugh.
Click to expand...

Like I agree but it's a necessary evil. Having a n0 start is not much different though. Not only do you basically deny someone the chance to play, but info is still sparse on day one. It's changing the start of the game to being a little about skill (because cold reading people is a skill) to being purely one based on chance (cop rng scum on night 0 or scum rng kills doc and that can fuck up the balance for the rest of the game.)
 
B

Burbeting

Banned
*Splinter said:
Booo Hyperkitty deserved MVP. Survived ages, ACTUALLY SAVED SOMEONE :OOOO and played well throughout

But anyway, gg all :D

Kark/Zip pay no attention to the PAGES AND PAGES of salt in the spec thread. Also you are both terrible x
Click to expand...

I have to admit that the role names where basically the last thing I decided on, as I thought they wouldn't be important during the game. It was miscalculation from my part.
 
K

Kyanrute

Member
CzarTim said:
Like I agree but it's a necessary evil. Having a n0 start is not much different though. Not only do you basically deny someone the chance to play, but info is still sparse on day one. It's changing the start of the game to being a little about skill (because cold reading people is a skill) to being purely one based on chance (cop rng scum on night 0 or scum rng kills doc and that can fuck up the balance for the rest of the game.)
Click to expand...

Yeah I agree pretty much with everything you said. I don't see a fix to day one so when I said "fuck day one" it should be read as "I do not like how something like this is a part of a otherwise enjoyable game but there is really nothing that can be changed about it so poor old me will just have to deal with it."
 
S

Sorian

Banned
Kyanrute said:
Yeah I agree pretty much with everything you said. I don't see a fix to day one so when I said "fuck day one" it should be read as "I do not like how something like this is a part of a otherwise enjoyable game but there is really nothing that can be changed about it so poor old me will just have to deal with it."
Click to expand...

Real talk, I like day 1 but I don't like it while it is happening. Day 1 usually holds a lot of clues that will only make sense on the last couple day phases of the game. But yeah, at the time it is a shit show and I say that as the person who does press people because they said the sky is blue instead of aqua. It's obnoxious but it is a necessary evil.
 
T

Ty4on

Member
Sophia said:
Ty4on, if we ever get a chance to play as scum in the future, it'd be an honor to play on the same team again.

Congratulations everyone, and especially town!!!
Click to expand...
Thanks, you too!
Shame the game was still ongoing when the Robot Sophia thread was new.

It'll have to be a town gossip or lover though. I'm not sure how I'd do as scum, but the RNG Gods won't let me roll scum :p
Hobohodo said:
Yeah Sophia put me to shame in the lovers chat.
Click to expand...
You did great too! I felt bad for not replying right away. One of the things that made me really active in the beginning was knowing that whatever crazy idea I had Sophia would almost always reply to it so there was no reason not to post it there.
I noticed on D1 the value of not keeping everything in the lover chat and actually conversing in the thread a bit. It's easy to stay inside the safe walls of the chat and ending up with very little reads in the game thread.
Burbeting said:
Balancing wise, I think the neutral could have been tweaked a little. I tried my best to make sure it does not act like a cop, but in the end it kinda did act that way. If scum had been hit by the Disruption, they would have given plenty of tools to convincinly fake claim a hit, because yeah, it wouldn't have worked on scum.
Click to expand...
Maybe when the metal pair flipped you could have redacted the number of disruptions needed to win? Had they hit scum I think in retrospect it would have been fun to speculate who were lying about being chat blocked.

-----------------

I tunneled... a lot...

I think I threw too much shit on the wall and ended up forgetting observations me or someone else had already made in the past. I don't think I've been more wrong in a game, but it was also sobering to have my bullshit called out. Slightly sobering. Five minutes later I'd come up with something new and equally wrong :p

I really like town chats and this game was no exception. Having a confirmed townie to throw ideas off of is really valuable.

I think this game was quite balanced. We were lucky with the first two scum pairs and there were a ton of paths to scum victory that were almost taken. The neutrals maybe had a bit too easy of a goal, but 4 disruptions seems like overkill in a game with 6 nights.

I dunno why, but I love D1. Maybe because I always roll town, but I like how new everything is. You have to read everyone anew and even if you've played with someone before they've usually changed from the last game. It's really rewarding looking back and reading what you nailed and ignoring the embarrasing mistakes you made figuring out where things went wrong with the other reads.
 
K

Karkador

Banned
I mean....I doubt anybody will listen to my thoughts on the game at this point, but in case you haven't lost all respect for me:


- The existence of N0 made whatever happened in D1 a pretty apparent orchestrated gambit.

- The D1 tracker counter-claim was pretty much handed to us, so it's hard to feel like we really worked for it. There was a question in the spec chat about why we didn't counter-claim on D1; it's because we wanted to have a N1 result and see how the claim evolves overnight, while still hidden. The whole "I'm listening to the GAFIA strategy guide" thing wasn't a joke. I'm learning new things as I go along, and being patient about D1 was (pretty understandably) one of them.

- However, I do think that driving that vote on Splinter near the end of D2 helped us a lot. I referred back to it a lot to get an idea of who was scum. I really insisted that everybody commit a vote on that early-game chaos. At that point, many players still didn't have a solid idea of how to posture themselves. It helped a lot in catching Coppa and Flame.

- Boxing Coppa and Flame in felt like a personal mafia milestone that I'm happy about.

- I'm changing my hashtag to #misunderstoodgambit




I'll post more thoughts later
 
C

CzarTim

Member
Karkador said:
- The D1 tracker counter-claim was pretty much handed to us, so it's hard to feel like we really worked for it. There was a question in the spec chat about why we didn't counter-claim on D1; it's because we wanted to have a N1 result and see how the claim evolves overnight, while still hidden. The whole "I'm listening to the GAFIA strategy guide" thing wasn't a joke. I'm learning new things as I go along, and being patient about D1 was (pretty understandably) one of them.
Click to expand...

I'd say the biggest mistake here was not counter-claiming and then turning around and tracking the team you almost certainly knew was scum already. You could have cleared / caught another team.

Personally I would have counter-claimed right away though. Taking away scums ability to find other PRs and having the scum team down one from the start is worth it in my mind. It ended up not mattering either way in this case though.
 
T

Ty4on

Member
Karkador said:
- However, I do think that driving that vote on Splinter near the end of D2 helped us a lot. I referred back to it a lot to get an idea of who was scum. I really insisted that everybody commit a vote on that early-game chaos. At that point, many players still didn't have a solid idea of how to posture themselves. It helped a lot in catching Coppa and Flame.
Click to expand...

I used it for all the wrong things, but I remember thinking "Kark is credit to team" when reading through all of that on N2.
 
K

Karkador

Banned
I can see your point, and perhaps it's evil CIA type of shit, but I wanted to see if the enemy will lead me to their friends.

Also, I really wasn't sure if something like a Miller Tracker would be possible. I mean, it's easy to say "of course not" with hindsight, but that was then. Also, saying "the Crab scale should make it obvious" is just crap. The Crab scale can't be relied on as a talking point in a game like that, especially when the Pairing premise of the game is already rather unusual. A 5/11 doesn't really mean anything to me.

Not to mention that a ridiculous Town D1 will most certainly just say " naw, fuck it, lynch Kark to test his counterclaim", and then we don't get to use the power
 
G

Giant Panda

Member
Good game everyone. I sure missed the boat on Blawl, but I'm glad my instincts were correct about batsnacks and Coppaflame, and that I was heading in the right direction towards Kyantroid. I thought I did decently considering it had been a few years for me and I wasn't a PR.
 
S

*Splinter

Member
Karkador said:
I mean....I doubt anybody will listen to my thoughts on the game at this point, but in case you haven't lost all respect for me:


- The existence of N0 made whatever happened in D1 a pretty apparent orchestrated gambit.

- The D1 tracker counter-claim was pretty much handed to us, so it's hard to feel like we really worked for it. There was a question in the spec chat about why we didn't counter-claim on D1; it's because we wanted to have a N1 result and see how the claim evolves overnight, while still hidden. The whole "I'm listening to the GAFIA strategy guide" thing wasn't a joke. I'm learning new things as I go along, and being patient about D1 was (pretty understandably) one of them.

- However, I do think that driving that vote on Splinter near the end of D2 helped us a lot. I referred back to it a lot to get an idea of who was scum. I really insisted that everybody commit a vote on that early-game chaos. At that point, many players still didn't have a solid idea of how to posture themselves. It helped a lot in catching Coppa and Flame.

- Boxing Coppa and Flame in felt like a personal mafia milestone that I'm happy about.

- I'm changing my hashtag to #misunderstoodgambit




I'll post more thoughts later
Click to expand...
I didn't like your reasons for doing it, but swinging the vote to me definitely helped town. Your cop claim at the end was the worst, I just don't see what you expected to gain there and it wasted pretty much the entire day. Apart from that though, gg, and seriously ignore me in the spec thread. I like the shitposting but get carried away, going to cut down on it in future.
 
K

Karkador

Banned
Yeah that cop claim could have gone better. We needed to put more oomph into it. Town was also missing.

The reasoning could be found in our boat chat, but the basic idea was to throw ty (who we already had a town-ish result from) into the fire to see what happened.
 
B

Burbeting

Banned
I have to admit I chuckled when Kark was in his lover chat "WHO THE FUCK EVEN HAS A ROLE IN THIS GAME?" after El Panda flipped. Sorry, town had just 4 PRs :D (Tracker, doctor, sleepwalker, the immune), and two of them flipped early.
 
C

Camjo-Z

Member
Karkador said:
Yeah that cop claim could have gone better. We needed to put more oomph into it. Town was also missing.

The reasoning could be found in our boat chat, but the basic idea was to throw ty (who we already had a town-ish result from) into the fire to see what happened.
Click to expand...

It was a good idea in theory but you waited way too long to do anything with it. People can barely come to a logical conclusion about who to vote in 3 days, let alone 3 hours.
 
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