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Lttp: Buffy the Vampire Slayer | Smashing the patriarchy one demon at a time

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Last night, I finished watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer for the first time. The girlfriend started watching it as background noise (as she'd already seen it when it aired), I watched one episode with her (the one in which Xander falls for his teacher who happens to be a demon praying mantis) and got hooked.

It's a pretty great show. I was surprised by how well it aged; there's some great writing in it. The special effects sure haven't aged well, but that's superficial. The dialogue and characters are what carries this show. I very much understand why the show made such an impact on popular culture. Part of me wishes I had watched it back in the day, but I think I would have been a tad too young to appreciate it fully (I was 9 when it started airing). But watching it all these years later, yeah, it's fantastic, and I very much recommend everyone to do the same.

I have some stuff to say about the show, but there won't be any structure to it, so here goes.

The first three seasons of the show are the best. Only one season is bad across the board (the last one), but the first three are the most consistently great. The show is at its best when it deals in self-contained monster-of-the-week episodes, as opposed to those dedicated to the season-long plot. There's some really good stuff in there, often times offering subtextual (and sometimes very textual) social commentary.

The most recurring commentary has to do with violence against women. Not just physical violence, but all kind. Men are assholes in this universe, and the show portrays women dealing with it in every which way. The show offers more and more of that as it goes on, and it culminates in a big-bad in the last season who's a priest who thinks all women are sluts and sinners. Whatever you might think of Joss Whedon now, the show he created speaks for itself: it is unabashedly feminist. And it's great.

Aside from male characters, adults are also portrayed as assholes in this show, John Hughes-style. In fact, I don't believe I can think of any adult that was portrayed positively in the whole show outside of Giles, Joyce and Miss Carpenter (hundred-years old vampires notwithstanding).

So about the quality of the show. As I said, the first three seasons are the most consistently great ones. But season 4, 5 and (to a lesser extent) 6 all offer fantastic episodes. In fact, the two best episodes are in season 5 and 6. The best of the two is the season 5 one, and it is certainly one of the best episodes of television ever aired. It is unbelieaveable how better in every department the episode is compared to the rest. Those who saw the show know which episode I'm talking about. There is a level of directing and writing presented in it that makes you wonder if you are watching the same show you were watching an episode prior. It's real fantastic.

The second-best episode is in season 6 and it is decidedly the most technically impressive episode of the series. It doesn't have the finesse of the best episode, but from a pure production perspective, it is the biggest and most complex episode of the show. And it's fantastic. I could talk about it in more details, but honestly, I'm hoping that some of you reading this will start watching the show yourselves for the first time, and I don't want to spoil anything. Before I started watching the show, I read about it on wikipedia, and read the articles dedicated to the series finale and the famous season 5 episode (and btw, doing so is what made me want to watch the show, despite being spoiled on a bunch of shit). But that season 6 episode was unspoiled to me. And man. It's so fucking good.

Anyways. Season 4 is when things started changing a bit. First of all, Cordelia disappears from the show. And I mean disappear. She had been a main character up to that point... and then poof. She's gone, no one mentions anything. Not even one line "oh she moved to L.A.". It was super weird. Having read on the show prior to watching it, I knew that eventually, she would step out of the show to go on Angel, but it was still weird that not one word was spoken of her considering how important she had been up until then.

You can actually pinpoint three things that explain the drop in quality of season 4:


  1. First, the dynamic of the scooby gang changes. As mentioned, Cordelia goes poof. Oz eventually also goes poof. I liked Oz. Giles stays on the show and is still billed as a regular, but I noticed that he seemed to have less screen time, which isn't a positive. Then the show reintroduces Spike... and they have no fucking idea what to do with him. It is crystal clear that they brought him back because of his extreme popularity instead of some carefully-constructed plot design. Because man is he lame for a while. He would eventually get much better, but for season 4 and (most of) 5, he's just there and looking handsome. Last for this point, Finn is introduced as a love interest for Buffy. Finn is boring. Bad character, bad actor. Christ, even the guy's face looks generic as shit. He looks like the default white male character you'd get in Oblivion and I'm not fucking with you. At some point, Spike derogatively calls him "white bread", and I wonder if that's not a wink to the audience coming from the writers, because it's too on-the-nose.

    qADthWX.jpg

    The gang. The writers should not have messed with them as much as they did.

    Though I will say that season 4 introduces Anya; an ex-demon, feminist and irreverent capitalist (also Xander's girlfriend) who is quite possibly the best character of the show. I'll have more to say on her and Xander later.

  2. Second, the main season plot of seasons 4 through 7 range from mediocre to bad. They're just not interesting. Season 4 introduces some fucking military drek that's so out of place it feels like recycled shit from some other C-grade show. On top of that, it messes with the audience's suspension of disbelief because now that the government is involved, you would think that they would be on top of the fucking demon situation that's all over Sunnydale. You know, the HELLMOUTH. But no. The military there is composed of only a small number of personnel, and the shows explains that they are some sort of experiment from the government to see if they can manage the situation, which is why you haven't seen them up to that point. They can't manage shit, as evident from their getting slaughtered by the end. And then the government just abandons Sunnydale. Like, what? The gates of Hell are in your country and you just fucking ghost on that shit? Fuck off.

    The military side of things also mess with the show's vibe. It was supposed to be this pastiche of gothic horror, mythical monsters and teenage drama. Adding military bros, scientists and guns to the mix just fucks with the recipe. It's like adding black pepper to a strawberry shortcake. You just don't do that. Thankfully, that stuff is secluded to the fourth season. It's still bad.

  3. Third, starting from the fourth season, there seems to be a slight (and not-so-slight for latter seasons) drop in monster-of-the-week episodes. As I said previously, the show is at its best when it's not building some bigger story. There are still many great such episodes all throughout season 4, 5 and (to a lesser extent) 6. But there are fewer. And season 7, dear lord, has almost none of it. I can only recall one (which is not only bad, but a recycled idea from one of the earlier seasons), but I think there are maybe two or three. Maybe not even.
Anyways, that's a lot of words dedicated to negativity, but like I previously mentioned, there's plenty to like all the way up to the end of season 6 (which is genuinely awesome, btw).

Season 7, though. That's a fuckin' dumpster fire. Ho-ly shit. I don't know what happened backstage, but man. It feels like a completely different production team making the show. It's bad. Both the macrostructure and microstructure of the show are just bad. Moment-to-moment writing in each episode is uninteresting and leads to nowhere. The overall plot of the season progresses at and uneven pace, which is made all the more excruciating as most of the season is composed of episodes building on the season plot.

The idea of bringing back this single-episode antagonist as the show's big-bad is great on paper, but they executed on it so poorly. Nothing about the season was interesting. My girlfriend and I were talking about it and we agreed that the show should have stuck with
Dark Willow
as the ultimate antagonist. A once pure and strong woman wrecked and twisted by misogyny and toxic masculinity. Not only was she cool and badass to watch fuck shit up, but it would have built on the show's feminist themes. Anyways. Even if they had stuck to that, I doubt the writers would have been able to do anything worthwhile with that idea. They were clearly running on fumes.

Last thing I want to talk about. Xander x Anya. The cutest thing in the show. They were so good together. They were made for each other. But the fucking writers, man. They had to ruin it. I have no fucking idea why. It's as if they were hellbent on making every character on the show miserable. No one can be happy. Buffy can't be with Angel 'cause as soon as he puts his dick in her, he loses his soul. Willow can't be with Oz because he's a werewolf and he's scared of hurting her. Giles can't be with Carpenter because fridged women. I don't know what's up with that, but it's shitty. There should have been at least one happy couple in the show, and it was supposed to be Xander and Anya.

It's also frustrating because every character on the show went through changes. They've all grown and matured. You take them at the beginning of the show, when they are sappy teenagers, and at the end they are all wise adults. Even Xander. But to write him in the way they did in that moment during season 6... it's just shit because it's like they went back to the well of insecure high schooler Xander from back in season 1 and 2. It's so frustrating. There was really no reason to write that shit. And to add insult to injury, they write off Anya so badly in the last episode. Like, fuck all of you.

About Dawn. Apparently people didn't like her much. "She whines all the time". I usually dislike child actors as they are often annoying, but I really didn't feel that with Dawn. There's maybe once or twice when I rolled my eyes and thought "oh, Dawn", but besides that, I thought she was fairly well-written. Most importantly, Michelle Trachtenberg was a pretty good actress for her age. I swear at times I thought she out-acted SMG.

Honestly they really sold her relationship with Buffy and it was really great to watch.

As for her introduction, I would have kept the charade going for waaay longer than one episode. Had I been the showrunner, I would have waited until the mid-season finale before even acknowledging anything.

Something I forgot to say last night, regarding the one episode from season 5:
after Joyce died, the writers should have never brought her back. For anything. She appeared in two or three flashbacks, and even appeared in spirit form to warn Dawn about an impeding danger. Fuck that shit, man. It totally taints the beauty of her death. Writers ain't shit.

Anyways. Buffy the Vampire Slayer is great. It's fantastic, even. You should watch it.

As for me, I'll be watching Angel in the near future. I haven't read shit about it, unlike for Buffy. I've read on here that most think Angel is a better, more consistent show; a sentiment with which my girlfriend agrees. So we'll see about that.

cheers
 

Eegah

Member
Buffy and Angel were both pretty good shows, though I don't think I liked them as much as many on the internet seemed to.

Maybe I'm alone on this, but I found the Buffy-Angel romance really creepy. He seemed way too old for the 16-ish year old high school junior Buffy.
 
"it is unabashedly feminist."

With its recasting Willow for a prettier actress, punishing Buffy everytime she has sex with a new guy for several seasons, the noncon sex she has with Spike and that she likes etc etc.
 
Giles finding Jenny dead was some 'shit just got real' moment

The entire "second half" of season 2 is the "ohhhh shit this show is the real deal" series of eps that really kick things off (when I watched it with my roommate that was still his favorite part of the show).

Overall, agree with most of your points, it's a fantastic show (season 1 is hard to go back to though) and has some really great episodes.

But yeah, in for a treat with Angle, it's probably my favorite of the two.
 
shit, I forgot to mention Dawn.

The gf is waiting for me to watch Insecure. I'll come back later to add some more thoughts, and I'll splice them in the OP.
 

Oidisco

Member
I still can't decide which of the 2 shows I prefer. I think Buffy has much higher highs but also lower lows. Angel is more consistent but it never reaches the same level that Buffy did at it's peak and I don't they took as many risks with the show. Also Angel goes has it's own fair share of awful episodes. Having said that the character writing in Angel is muuuch better and the arcs they go through during the show is pretty incredible.

I dunno, they're both reaaaaalllly good and that's all that matters.
 

Vamphuntr

Member
I enjoyed the show and have both the complete Buffy and Angel DVD collection. I do agree that the show changes through its run but I think this is mostly a result of American TV culture. In the US shows goes on and on for so many seasons and often I feel it is too much that actors either leave to be on other projects or the writer gets really tired. If you don't like a rotating cast of regulars you would probably hate something like Spooks (known as MI6 outside the UK) which is still a spectacular show. Cordelia is a regular in Angel Season 1-4 (until Whedon showed her the door for a petty reason) which is why she isn't in Buffy anymore. Seth Greene left because he probably had better to do :p.

A big issue with the show is that in hindsight it looks a bit cheap set wise and SFX wise. Its pop culture references might also be lost for new viewers watching it now. As for some of your personal gripes like Xander and Anya, I think their downfall is part of the Season 6 thematic. This one was kind of there to show that life can really go to hell really quick and there is nothing you can do about it even with superpowers. You just have to deal with it and have friends to help you through. Everyone of the them suffers a major blow and try to recover the best they can.

I think most people agree that Season 7 is kind of bad. Hearsay at the time were saying that Whedon was still hoping that the cast would be coming back for another season so he tried to stretch it as most as he could until well they made up their mind definitely so he had to write an ending. It tries to solve everything in the last 5 episodes but it doesn't turn out very well. It kind of destroy the lore by shoehorning the whole Watchers are evil angle and some Egyptian tomb being in Sunnydale's graveyard all along. If you want to see what happens next there are some official comics for Season 7 and 8. Since it's in comic forms it gets realllly craaaazy pretty fast.

The best part of the show for me is definitely the final episodes of Season 5. The Body and the Gift are the highlight of the series for me.

Definitely watch Angel now. Complete serie can be gotten on sale often for pretty cheap. It does have pretty shoddy plotlines too (Connor, the way Cordelia was written out) and the ending is kind of awful but overall it's a great show too!
 
Outside of Doyle Angel seems to handle it's characters with more depth than Buffy did. Granted I'm blocking out a lot of post season 3 Buffy. I think the only villain that was decent was Glory. Enjoy Angel, it's good, really good. It's second ep does a good job of showcasing how hard it is for introverts to date...also the first season shows just how awkward and funny Angel is in social situations.
 
About Dawn. Apparently people didn't like her much. "She whines all the time". I usually dislike child actors as they are often annoying, but I really didn't feel that with Dawn. There's maybe once or twice when I rolled my eyes and thought "oh, Dawn", but besides that, I thought she was fairly well-written. Most importantly, Michelle Trachtenberg was a pretty good actress for her age. I swear at times I thought she out-acted SMG.

As for her introduction, I would have kept the charade going for way longer than one episode. Had I been the showrunner, I would have waited until the mid-season finale before even acknowledging anything.

Something I forgot to say last night, regarding the one episode from season 5:
after Joyce died, the writers should have never brought her back. For anything. She appeared in two or three flashbacks, and even appeared in spirit form to warn Dawn about an impeding danger. Fuck that shit, man. It totally taints the beauty of her death. Writers ain't shit.

I think Buffy has much higher highs but also lower lows. Angel is more consistent but it never reaches the same level that Buffy did at it's peak

This is what I have heard also. We'll see. I have to watch all of Twin Peaks before I commit to Angel though. I need to see that famous third season.
 
I don't know why people say Angel doesn't have highs as high as Buffy. I'd rank Angel's third season finale pretty fucking high to be honest.
 

Slaythe

Member
Angel is incredible and on its own right.

I like all seasons of Angel (even though it took me years to see season 4 with new eyes) but season 5 is so creative and free, it's amazing.

If you consider that Angel started when season 4 of Buffy did, it was a pretty brutal switch.

It has some hilarious and messed up moments, yeah it's pretty good. I still even like certain eps from season 1.

Season 1 is a bit "classic" but it's still good. Some pretty good episodes. Season 2 also is a bit classic, yet has incredible episodes.
 

DeathyBoy

Banned
"it is unabashedly feminist."

With its recasting Willow for a prettier actress, punishing Buffy everytime she has sex with a new guy for several seasons, the noncon sex she has with Spike and that she likes etc etc.

The truth is that Buffy was both feminist and problematic. Tara and Willow was both a lovely romance and problematic because they had no chemistry whatsoever in terms of convincingly portraying physical attraction.

So you had characters listing after each other while the lesbians were quaintly chaste.
 
Angel is incredible and on its own right.

I like all seasons of Angel (even though it took me years to see season 4 with new eyes) but season 5 is so creative and free, it's amazing.

If you consider that Angel started when season 4 of Buffy did, it was a pretty brutal switch.



Season 1 is a bit "classic" but it's still good. Some pretty good episodes. Season 2 also is a bit classic, yet has incredible episodes.
I was watching Buffy in conjunction with Angel till the UPN switch and it's almost a night and day difference. I'd have to rewatch Buffy with some fresh eyes, but I think I'd put Angel season 1 above Buffy season 1 at the very least. I like Angel a lot when he's talking with Lilah and Lindsey in season 2. I think he's in his "The fuck even is my purpose" slump and he's not even sure how good he wants to be, it's pretty interesting. Season 2 has some great cameos so I can't complain about it.
 
I love Buffy so much, but I am not sure if I could ever do a full rewatch. That finale :-(
I can understand this. I don't think I could survive a rewatch of season 4 alone. I have never seen season 6 outside of the last few dark willow eps and I was onboard again for most of season 7, but I haven't seen these since their original air dates and I even have the whole series on DVD. I don't know if it's time, motivation or I don't want to taint what's left of my nostalgia or something.
 

Jennings

Member
I always hated the episode where she lost her super powers and became just another human, where she constantly got knocked on her ass by guys bigger and stronger than her. I'm not sure why they did that, it was demoralizing to realize that her attitude and inner strength were just a by product of her supernatural abilities rather than her own personality. It was as if one drove the other rather than visa versa.

Only part of the series that still nags at me to this day.
 
Buffy Season 1-3 are still some of the best tv out there. Buffy Season 4 and 5 have some great bits but at other points is trash. S6 is a total dumpster fire of shitty storylines, lame,villains and somehow making a likeable cast totally unlikeable. S7 again is uneven but the last handful of episodes with Faith's return and Fillion as the main henchmen are good.

Angel as a show is far superior.
 
First season of Angel is pretty rough... I'd probably say it's about on the same level of quality as Buffy S4 actually. After that it really hits a stride and becomes a great thing in its own right. Best single character arc I've seen on tv in WWP

God damn Buffy was a good show... thinking about it kind of makes me melancholic that there isn't really any other tv out there like it. People point to Supernatural but that just never did it for me. I'd kill for another urban supernatural ensemble comedy-drama of the same quality.
 
First season of Angel is pretty rough... I'd probably say it's about on the same level of quality as Buffy S4 actually. After that it really hits a stride and becomes a great thing in its own right. Best single character arc I've seen on tv in WWP

God damn Buffy was a good show... thinking about it kind of makes me melancholic that there isn't really any other tv out there like it. People point to Supernatural but that just never did it for me. I'd kill for another urban supernatural ensemble comedy-drama of the same quality.
I think Kate's eps and the eps with Faith put it above season 4, then again I don't remember liking Buffy season 4 too much and actually remember liking some of the season one Angel eps. There are a good amount of character interactions that I liked.
 

LakeEarth

Member
I'm the type to put season 6 over season 7. Season 7 has very little to appreciate, other than the Andrew episode. Conversations With Dead People was a really good episode, but I can't get over the fact that it goes nowhere in regards to the rest of the season.
 

Brandon F

Well congratulations! You got yourself caught!
How did the comic seasons turn out? I started reading S8 years ago but never kept up to get through it. I noticed they are up to S10(!!) perusing Amazon during last week's comic sale.

Worth getting back into as a massive fan of the show?
 

Media

Member
I have to re-watch Once More With Feeling at least once a year.

Buffy/Angel were my first real Fandom. I was obsessed with X-Files but damn, Buffy fixed that.
 

Manu

Member
How did the comic seasons turn out? I started reading S8 years ago but never kept up to get through it. I noticed they are up to S10(!!) perusing Amazon during last week's comic sale.

Worth getting back into as a massive fan of the show?

S8 was terrible, S9 was an improvement but still nowhere near the TV series.

Haven't bothered with S10 yet.
 

V_Arnold

Member
"it is unabashedly feminist."

With its recasting Willow for a prettier actress, punishing Buffy everytime she has sex with a new guy for several seasons, the noncon sex she has with Spike and that she likes etc etc.

Eh. You really cant isolate these things and just ignore the rest. Is Buffy flawless? Nope. Is it a feminist show? Yep. Did it move forward the "case" for female protagonists on TV? Absolutely.
 

-shadow-

Member
Really pissed we never got that Giles spin-off series because that would've been so cool. I freaking love this show so much, along with Angel (except season 4). I should rewatch the series soon again!
 
Angel starts as a pretty by-the-numbers monster of the week/detective procedural kind of show but grows into something much, much better and gives Angel enough room to breathe that, by the end, he'll be your favourite character in that whole verse.
 
Angel starts as a pretty by-the-numbers monster of the week/detective procedural kind of show but grows into something much, much better and gives Angel enough room to breathe that, by the end, he'll be your favourite character in that whole verse.
Discovering that Angel is cheap because he's old as fuck is hilarious.
 

Anoregon

The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
The most impressive thing about Angel is that it turns Wesley (yes, that Wesley from Buffy) into the most interesting character in the Buffyverse.
 
The most impressive thing about Angel is that it turns Wesley (yes, that Wesley from Buffy) into the most interesting character in the Buffyverse.
Let's not forget what the show managed to do with Fred. Though yes Buffy Wesley and Angel's Wesley are two different people. The scene where he thinks he
killed his dad
is excellent.
 
Buffy is great and I kinda wanna rewatch it.

I'll never forgive Angel for how they treated Cordelia though.
Yeah, that was messed up, though I thought that was more of Joss' fault than anything. First that fucked up haircut, then the sort of
incest
plot...then...yeah...fuck.
 

Manu

Member
Let's not forget what the show managed to do with Fred. Though yes Buffy Wesley and Angel's Wesley are two different people. The scene where he thinks he
killed his dad
is excellent.

*Fred walks into the room*
"If you're here to tell me how you killed your father, I swear..."
"What?"
 
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