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[JulianImp]

Having Ral keep stuff tapped on opponent's turn would be crazy broken. He'd be better cheaper Tamiyo at that point.

As it is the untap part of his ability is probably way more useful, since Sorcery speed tapping isn't particularly great. I do like the choice it sets up with creatures where you can either give one of your guys pseudo-vigilance or make it so an enemy creature can't block, but not both.

You can do both. The great part is he's good against opposing control decks as well since he forces opponents to keep extra mana up each turn, and can accelerate you in an Izzet deck.

I hope I can get my hands on some copies, since I really want to build an Izzet deck (or an Izzet-Simic collaboration).

Split cards look like they might be taking up lots of card slots, since they'd have to make a ten-card cycle of both the uncommon and rare ones. Still, I've always loved split cards, and Fuse looks like an even more interesting way to do them.

On unrelated news, I didn't know Second Sunrise and the cards in it were so expensive. I have all the cards back from before Extended changed and Modern was added (ie: no Faith's Reward or newer goodies), but I don't think I'll be playing that deck at all since it bores me to no end... should I go and trade some of the cards away?

 

[ZeroCoin]

You can do both. The great part is he's good against opposing control decks as well since he forces opponents to keep extra mana up each turn, and can accelerate you in an Izzet deck.

No, what he means is that you can choose to use the +1 ability in your first main phase (pre-combat) or your second (post-combat). If you use it during the first main phase, you can lock down a potential blocker, but your untap ability would end up being used to untap something before the combat step. Your other option would to be to use it after the combat step has already resolved and tapping enemy creatures them would do no good, but you could untap a creature you chose to attack with.

 

[kirblar]

Second Sunrise is likely about to go down in Price- Eggs is almost certainly getting banhammered in Modern because of how much it interferes with tournament logistics.

 

[The Technomancer]

Someone explain this to me? You draw a card off of Beck, but is there a common interaction between Orchid and other cards I'm forgetting?

 

[JulianImp]

No, what he means is that you can choose to use the +1 ability in your first main phase (pre-combat) or your second (post-combat). If you use it during the first main phase, you can lock down a potential blocker, but your untap ability would end up being used to untap something before the combat step. Your other option would to be to use it after the combat step has already resolved and tapping enemy creatures them would do no good, but you could untap a creature you chose to attack with.

Whoops! Still, I think you'd be better off untapping your creatures post-combat rather than tapping theirs (unless it's a Boros Reckoner, I guess). His -2 more than makes up for his defensively weak +1 against creature-centric decks, even if it isn't a Lightning Helix like Ajani Vengeant was.

Comparing him to Vengeant, he does seem quite a bit weaker in every aspect (even down to the ultimate), but I'm not sure how many decks are running WR or UR. Hopefully, that means he doesn't get a ridiculous price tag; or that it settles down shortly after launch.

Second Sunrise is likely about to go down in Price- Eggs is almost certainly getting banhammered in Modern because of how much it interferes with tournament logistics.

I hope that's the case, but I probably won't get to trade them away soon enough since my LGS has few to no Modern players. I've always found the deck's kind of disgusting to play with or against.

I didn't realize DGM was going to launch so soon, but it's great! If I didn't misread Rosewater's comment, it seems they sadly didn't fit a legendary ooze into the expansion (despite the Simic being the ideal guild for them). As long as they fix cypher and make the Izzet more exciting (since their cards were quite weak in RTR), I'll be happy.

Someone explain this to me? You draw a card off of Beck, but is there a common interaction between Orchid and other cards I'm forgetting?

I think there was a bad combo of Intruder Alarm + Forbidden Orchard + something to turn the Orchard into a creature, and I guess you could add Beck to that to draw infinite cards while making infinite mana as well (luckily, the card draw is optional).

 

[Keru_Shiri]

I don't think Ral loses out to Angry Ajanni that badly. Setting aside the different color pairings, Ral's +1 is more versatile compared to Ajanni's. Ajanni's -2 easily trumps Ral's, but Ral starts with 1 more loyalty. I don't really believe a PW's ultimate should contribute that much to their evaluation given how rarely they're used, but I will point out that even getting 2 out of 5 heads will easily win you the game.

 

[rCIZZLE]

Planeswalkers are why I do like 3 prereleases. Usually get a couple out of the pool + prize packs and those fuckers are like gold for the first couple weeks even if they're not particularly good.

 

[narcosis219]

Man, I feel like Ral is an auto-include in cubes. Aside from the fact that he makes any permanent on your side that has {T} on it better, two bolts doesn't sound bad either.

Untapping karoo lands/ancient tomb/maze of ith sounds sweet. Tapping a man-land for its mana, then using it to attack? Using Nevi disk the turn it comes down? Go infinite with Time Vault? Getting rid of ANY ETB tapped sounds so sick!

 

[kirblar]

Man, I feel like Ral is an auto-include in cubes. Aside from the fact that he makes any permanent on your side that has {T} on it better, two bolts doesn't sound bad either.

Untapping karoo lands/ancient tomb/maze of ith sounds sweet. Tapping a man-land for its mana, then using it to attack? Using Nevi disk the turn it comes down? Go infinite with Time Vault? Getting rid of ANY ETB tapped sounds so sick!

Yup. He shines once you bust open the +1.

 

[y2dvd]

I guess in RUG, Ral has the potential to bring out a huge bomb much quicker by tapping Gyre Sage for mana, and then untapping with the +1 and tapping Gyre again.

 

[kirblar]

I guess in RUG, Ral has the potential to bring out a huge bomb much quicker by tapping Gyre Sage for mana, and then untapping with the +1 and tapping Gyre again.

And here we go.

 

[ultron87]

This still probably isn't good but you can greatly speed up the Maze's End win plan with Ral.

 

[Keru_Shiri]

There's gotta be some silly artifact or creature (or maybe land) that can benefit from a steady stream of untaps from Ral.

 

[y2dvd]

Asides from the combo I just mentioned, I may create a deck around that +1 with these cards.

They may not be tourny playable, but it should be fun at my FNM. If only Chronic Flooding made the enchanted land into an Island!

 

[WanderingWind]

I'm making a Bant deck with Resto, Thraggy, Trostani, Beck, Lingering Souls, Selesnya Charm, Centaur Healer, Smiter, counter magics and some one drops like Experiment One. And unsummon. Must have Unsummon.

 

[kirblar]

Cloudstone Curio just got bought out/cornered.

 

[f0rk]

Cloudstone Curio just got bought out/cornered.

Because of Beck? You can draw your deck with that + Burning Tree Emissary and Cloudstone Curio.

 

[kirblar]

Because of Beck? You can draw your deck with that + Burning Tree Emissary and Cloudstone Curio.

Holy bejesus I missed that.

 

[f0rk]

Is there a way of winning of of that in Modern? Turn 3 with a Deathrite Shaman and 2 fetches.

 

[Lucario]

I tested the cloudstone deck, Odelay affinity (hurr), and beck elves all morning.

The cloudstone deck is awful. Three card combo, two of the same creature and an artifact? That isn't even an engine deck. It's a combo deck that requires a fourth card before it does anything.

Beck elves are consistent on turn 4, and can combo off on turn three a terrifying percentage of the time.

 

[Hero]

I tested the cloudstone deck, Odelay affinity (hurr), and beck elves all morning.

The cloudstone deck is awful. Three card combo, two of the same creature and an artifact?

Beck elves are consistent on turn 4, and can combo off on turn three a terrifying percentage of the time.

Edit:

Beck and Call. Yeah, that card has to get banned in Modern.

 

[Lucario]

Turn 3 "draw your whole deck, craterhood for the win" isn't something that should be happening in modern. It isn't even particularly easy to disrupt.

If you'd like to playtest it:

http://playtest.tappedout.net/loser-elves/

 

[kirblar]

R&D is hilarious there. Edit: Oh, duh, it's Beck. Glittering Wish might work though.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

I tested the cloudstone deck, Odelay affinity (hurr), and beck elves all morning.

The cloudstone deck is awful. Three card combo, two of the same creature and an artifact? That isn't even an engine deck. It's a combo deck that requires a fourth card before it does anything.

Beck elves are consistent on turn 4, and can combo off on turn three a terrifying percentage of the time.

Was this just goldfishing? Or "real" games?

 

[Lucario]

Was this just goldfishing? Or "real" games?

Mostly just goldfishing, but the ability to goldfish a turn three kill in such a hilarious fashion shouldn't be possible.

Keep in mind this is while using random experimental versions of the deck -- none of which, including the one I have up on deckbox, are optimized. I'm running silly shit like Zombie Infestation and Spawning Pool just so see what happens.


...and, despite this, it's still extremely rare that it will not win on turn three or four. This isn't a "oh, all right, I'll leave all this shit out on the board and swing in for a few turns, nobody would possibly interact" win. It's an "I'm going to go from two elves on the board to playing my entire deck. If you don't counter my Beck, you lose" win.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Mostly just goldfishing, but the ability to goldfish a turn three kill in such a hilarious fashion shouldn't be possible.

If you assume T1 elf gets bolted, how far back does that set you? Is it just one turn, or is the cumulative effect big enough to send you back two turns?

 

[Lucario]

If you assume T1 elf gets bolted, how far back does that set you? Is it just one turn, or is the cumulative effect big enough to send you back two turns?

t1 elf gets bolted, I'm set back one turn -- there's no tempo issues here. You need to hold back 1cmc mana elves to be able to properly combo off anyways.

Keep in mind... it's an engine deck, not a combo deck. If your opponent spends all their resources taking beck and muddle out of your hand, they're likely to die to a 100 damage attack from a hardcast craterhoof on turn 4 (or a swarm of elves)



The only issues I've had.....

1: If someone counters Beck, then wraths the board on their next turn. You're pretty much dead. This is extremely unlikely.

2: If someone kills a Heritage Druid then, say, exirpates it, you can't chain through your entire deck. This is also extremely unlikely.

3: Pyroclasm effects hurt, but not as much as you'd think. I rarely have more than three elves out when I combo off.

 

[Lucario]

R&D is hilarious there. Edit: Oh, duh, it's Beck. Glittering Wish might work though.

Now THAT'S an idea. While muddle has been fantastic, I wouldn't mind a wishboard.

 

[kirblar]

Now THAT'S an idea. While muddle has been fantastic, I wouldn't mind a wishboard.

I luuuvvv me some wishes.

 

[thetechkid]

So I modified my deck to get rid of the green and here is what I have now. Would it be any better now?

 

[Lucario]

ahahahaha yeah I just realized you don't even have to play out your dorks/elves early on if your opponent has boardwipe.

You can easily draw your deck from a completely empty board if you wait until turn 5 or 6. That's obscene.

 

[ultron87]

So I modified my deck to get rid of the green and here is what I have now. Would it be any better now?

Yeah. Should be much more consistent. And you have a bunch of two mana cost creatures so you can be nice and aggressive.

I'd drop Angels Mercy since straight life gain typically isn't what you want to do and consider dropping some of the more expensive creatures for some one drops since being able to attack with Battalion ASAP is huge for your deck. It really depends on the whether you want to stick with a quick aggressive style or move towards more of a long game.

 

[kirblar]

ahahahaha yeah I just realized you don't even have to play out your dorks/elves early on if your opponent has boardwipe.

You can easily draw your deck from a completely empty board if you wait until turn 5 or 6. That's obscene.

Heritage Druid was a very bad card to print.

 

[thetechkid]

Yeah. Should be much more consistent. And you have a bunch of two mana cost creatures so you can be nice and aggressive.

I'd drop Angels Mercy since straight life gain typically isn't what you want to do and consider dropping some of the more expensive creatures for some one drops since being able to attack with Battalion ASAP is huge for your deck. It really depends on the whether you want to stick with a quick aggressive style or move towards more of a long game.

I'd like to end it quick. At my local I was picking up a few cards and asked around for tips and I got a few people saying that I should pick up some more Pillar of Flame, Brimstone Volley, and Searing Spears.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Beck // Call feels very much like R&D crossing their fingers and hoping the modern metagame can sort out the effect it will have.

But the DCI had better be careful about pre-emptive banning. They could create a lot of ill will towards Modern if they release Dragon's Maze and then immediately kill the deck. The format is already viewed as incredibly unstable. My guess is that the next announcement will ban something from Eggs and we'll get two months of UG Elves. If the deck can't be adequately dealt with by the metagame, we'll see Heritage Druid get the axe when M14 hits.

 

[kirblar]

It's not an accident that the card's being released outside of Modern PTQ season.

 

[Lucario]

Also, heritage druid isn't as likely to see a ban as a 'play a card -- draw a card' effect is.

That reminds me, I should put Null Profusion in here.

edit: it's nuts

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Also, heritage druid isn't as likely to see a ban as a 'play a card -- draw a card' effect is.

When Goblin Electromancer broke Storm open in Modern, they banned Seething Song. When Deathrite Shaman put Jund over the top, they banned Bloodbraid Elf. I'm just assuming they don't want to ban new cards if banning an old card will do the trick.

 

[Lucario]

When Goblin Electromancer broke Storm open in Modern, they didn't ban it - they banned an old enabler. I'm just assuming they don't want to ban new cards.

because electromancer is a mediocre card on its own, and boosted one strategy in one deck -- didn't break it open. One creature in an otherwise creatureless deck isn't ideal, and the card couldn't possibly cause harm to the environment otherwise.

 

[rCIZZLE]

Talks of bannings already is part of the reason why modern is a shitty format.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

because electromancer is a mediocre card on its own, and boosted one strategy in one deck -- didn't break it open. One creature in an otherwise creatureless deck isn't ideal, and the card couldn't possibly cause harm to the environment otherwise.

Seething Song wasn't doing anything in any deck that mattered other than Storm either. We saw this with Bloodbraid Elf as well. I honestly think that they're very motivated to keep cards in the current set legal because they want to keep selling product. If the deck ends up having to be nuked, and Beck // Call isn't doing anything anywhere else, I really think they'll aim for something in the secondary market and not in the primary market (regardless of whether or not it's the more powerful card). I'm not saying it would be right, just that they probably won't do it if they don't have to.

Talks of bannings already is part of the reason why modern is a shitty format.

While I don't think Modern is "shitty" per say, I agree with the sentiment. Nobody wants to put time, effort, and money into brewing because if you manage to build something sweet, you're afraid it will get nuked. So the format is full of grindy midrange decks.

Honestly, even if Elves jumps to tier one, they shouldn't ban anything from it unless it's seriously oppressive. The format needs to feel stable if they want it to survive.

 

[rCIZZLE]

Seething Song wasn't doing anything in any deck that mattered other than Storm either. We saw this with Bloodbraid Elf as well. I honestly think that they're very motivated to keep cards in the current set legal because they want to keep selling product. If the deck ends up having to be nuked, and Beck // Call isn't doing anything anywhere else, I really think they'll aim for something in the secondary market and not in the primary market (regardless of whether or not it's the more powerful card). I'm not saying it would be right, just that they probably won't do it if they don't have to.

Yep, which is why DRS is going to (wrongfully) get banned when RTR is out of print. Why would they ban something that's helping sell packs?

 

[robotzombie]

So how does the spoiler stuff work? Do they release cards in a set schedule?

 

[ultron87]

So how does the spoiler stuff work? Do they release cards in a set schedule?

Yeah, they will show cards every week day at midnight . Either on Daily MTG or on community sites they give cards too to show.

 

[rCIZZLE]

So how does the spoiler stuff work? Do they release cards in a set schedule?

Every night there's typically 4-6 cards spoiled at midnight EST. After a couple weeks they'll just dump the unspoiled ones but they're almost always garbage by that time. They usually generate hype by releasing the likely money cards first.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

So how does the spoiler stuff work? Do they release cards in a set schedule?

WotC will spoil 2-4 cards per business day right at midnight Eastern. Each major Magic site (Channel Fireball, Star City Games, etc) along with podcasts (Limited Resources, In Contention, etc) will also be given a single exclusive spoiler and be assigned a date they get to spoil it.

Reddit actually does a really good job of compiling all the spoilers; there's a spoiler thread that will go up at midnight each day and catalog everything.

One week from release the entire set gets spoiled; usually theres just limited fodder left to see.

 

[WanderingWind]

Also, on All Hallow's Eve and the first Wednesday after the spring equinox, they release Gleemax, who foretells the future of Magic through interpretive dance.

 

[robotzombie]

gotcha, thanks guys

This is the first set in which I've been fully invested, so this should be fun

 

[An-Det]

I envy you then, to see the insanity for the first time. Spoiler season is always a lot of fun.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Also, on All Hallow's Eve and the first Wednesday after the spring equinox, they release Gleemax, who foretells the future of Magic through interpretive dance.

I have the Autocard Anywhere extension for Chrome activated on GAF. Apparently "All Hallow's Eve" is a card, and it's a suspend card before suspend was invented (although you cast the card when you suspend it rather than when it comes off suspend). It's fascinating to see how far card development has come.