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Magic: The Gathering |OT|

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The_Technomancer said:
Thats actually one of the most common new player mistakes I've seen. A lot of players who think that Pyretic Ritual gives them a permanent that taps for RRR
Heh. I remember my early days of playing MTG. I built a green deck, which included Revised Wild Growths. Every time I tapped it for mana, I'd pull-out an extra Forest from outside the game and place it on the board. Since we were all noobs, no one questioned it, nor did anyone, including me, realize how broken it would be if the card really worked that way. Churning out the occassional turn 3 Force of Nature was fun. :lol
 
kudos. said:
I don't really understand this. Only creatures get summoning sickness. All other permanents don't. Artifacts/lands/enchantments. Don't. I think it's as simple as that.
It's important for artifacts/lands/enchantments that suddenly become creatures at some point. It's easier to remember (makes more sense?) that they already have summoning sickness and are now affected by it now that they are a creature, rather than they somehow just got summoning sickness.

It's just my way of understanding summoning sickness anyway, as long as yours works for you, it's fine too.
 
kudos. said:
I don't really understand this. Only creatures get summoning sickness. All other permanents don't. Artifacts/lands/enchantments. Don't. I think it's as simple as that.

Summoning sickness does not care what the permanent was, it only cares if it was under your control since the beginning of the turn. Wizards even took their time explaining this because of Karn recently, but there has been other cases of them clarifying this.

So, a land which comes into play THIS turn, and does not have haste -> cant attack if he becomes a creature.
A land which was yours since last turn, becomes a creature -> summoning sickness checks if the permanent itself was in your control? Yes. Did it become a creature just now? Yes, but that does not matter, so it CAN attack this turn.
 
kudos. said:
Weird how complex this game is. I remember when I first started out and played against my friend I casted a dark ritual and could have sworn it produced 3 lands. Now I know a lot better but certain stacking and layering rules that the game has, even trouble with certain combat step rulings, I am baffled and we have to look up. It seems crazy that after 4+ of playing a game I still have trouble grasping some of the ruling concepts. From a simple burn deck to death & taxes, the game has such incredible range.

Tell me about how complex this game is. Complete noob who started a few weeks ago. I find myself and even buddies who's been playing for a few years now always asking or checking on a ruling for certain cards/actions/scenarios. It's like we need a mtg lawyer at presence!

Went to the local card shop to get my Inkmoth Nexus question cleared up.
-Can be used to tap for mana right away.
-Creature has summoning sickness, but I do not have to turn it into a creature to "summon" it. Just placing the Inkmoth is considered the summoning sickness.
-Can't tap the card for mana and then convert it into a creature to attack. Gotta have another source of mana.
-Once converted into a creature, creature can be destroyed and I will lose the land. Yikes!
 
I dont know how many of you would be interested in it, but CDR over at The Source posted the playmat they are selling for Providence in their official GP Providence thread. I'm planning on picking one up to replace my ancient blue dragon shield mat.

neLWa.jpg
 
y2dvd said:
Tell me about how complex this game is. Complete noob who started a few weeks ago. I find myself and even buddies who's been playing for a few years now always asking or checking on a ruling for certain cards/actions/scenarios. It's like we need a mtg lawyer at presence!

Went to the local card shop to get my Inkmoth Nexus question cleared up.
-Can be used to tap for mana right away.
-Creature has summoning sickness, but I do not have to turn it into a creature to "summon" it. Just placing the Inkmoth is considered the summoning sickness.
-Can't tap the card for mana and then convert it into a creature to attack. Gotta have another source of mana.
-Once converted into a creature, creature can be destroyed and I will lose the land. Yikes!

It's simpler than you think. You can't attack with a creature that's already tapped. A permanent that's both a creature and land can be destroyed by spells targeting either.

MTG rules have certain complexity to it, but once you get past the basic rules, the solutions are more often than not the simplest ones.
 
The biggest thing to learn about MTG rules is the Stack, and how priority works. Once you get that down, the vast majority of rules questions are just knowing how things are worded.
 
An-Det said:
I dont know how many of you would be interested in it, but CDR over at The Source posted the playmat they are selling for Providence in their official GP Providence thread. I'm planning on picking one up to replace my ancient blue dragon shield mat.

neLWa.jpg
Would've been nicer without the logo taking up so much space. Art > logo!

Is there a Knight of the Reliquary playmat? I think it's one of my favorite arts ever and it'd be cool to have.
 
An-Det said:
I dont know how many of you would be interested in it, but CDR over at The Source posted the playmat they are selling for Providence in their official GP Providence thread. I'm planning on picking one up to replace my ancient blue dragon shield mat.

neLWa.jpg

How much are these? If it isn't too much, I'd love to paypal you to pick one up for me.
 
Speaking of the whole "land that just came into play and becomes a creature has summoning sickness" thing, I actually have a real world example just in case anyone is still unclear about it.

During the New Phryexia pre release, I pulled a Koth and was relying heavily on him in at least half the games. His +1 ability is to untap a mountain and it becomes a 4/4 creature until end of turn. During one game my opponent was watching my land closely because I was smashing him with the ability. I slipped up and turned the land I had just played that turn into a 4/4, at which point, because it's a creature and hasn't seen an upkeep yet, it had summoning sickness and couldn't attack.


Finally decided to buy two booster boxes of NP. I'm getting em for $185 so I figured why not. Crossing my fingers for a foil Mental Misstep.


edit: Also, anybody else going to GTP in Providence? I still don't know wtf I'm going to play. I have a modified ramp deck with both natural orders and summoning traps that has been very consistent against my friend's junk decks, so I'll probably end up using that.
 
siddx said:
Speaking of the whole "land that just came into play and becomes a creature has summoning sickness" thing, I actually have a real world example just in case anyone is still unclear about it.

During the New Phryexia pre release, I pulled a Koth and was relying heavily on him in at least half the games. His +1 ability is to untap a mountain and it becomes a 4/4 creature until end of turn. During one game my opponent was watching my land closely because I was smashing him with the ability. I slipped up and turned the land I had just played that turn into a 4/4, at which point, because it's a creature and hasn't seen an upkeep yet, it had summoning sickness and couldn't attack.


Finally decided to buy two booster boxes of NP. I'm getting em for $185 so I figured why not. Crossing my fingers for a foil Mental Misstep.

I've done that once or twice on Magic Online. If someone at a local tournament did that, I'd probably let it go unless I really didn't like them or it was the finals.
 
Akim said:
I've done that once or twice on Magic Online. If someone at a local tournament did that, I'd probably let it go unless I really didn't like them or it was the finals.

Guy who called me out was the same guy who went back on ignoring last 5 turns when it became evident I was going to kill him on turn 6. We ended up drawing :/
 
siddx said:
Speaking of the whole "land that just came into play and becomes a creature has summoning sickness" thing, I actually have a real world example just in case anyone is still unclear about it.

During the New Phryexia pre release, I pulled a Koth and was relying heavily on him in at least half the games. His +1 ability is to untap a mountain and it becomes a 4/4 creature until end of turn. During one game my opponent was watching my land closely because I was smashing him with the ability. I slipped up and turned the land I had just played that turn into a 4/4, at which point, because it's a creature and hasn't seen an upkeep yet, it had summoning sickness and couldn't attack.
Playing last night with friends I almost did the same thing last night. I ended up saving them the trouble by making sure to always untapped the one at the top of the play area.

Missed all the prereleases this past weekend (dang Mother's Day). Really looking forward to picking up a box in the coming week.
 
Playgroup is getting into legacy, so I'm checking the format out for the first time. Goldfished a bunch of decks and I think I've zeroed in on one I'd like to try out with actual cardboard- the mono white variant of Death and Taxes. The Flickerwisp/Aether Vial shenanigans are right up my alley and feel surprisingly similar to the way my Kiki EDH deck tricks do.

That said, wow, this deck is NOT cheap. I don't own a single piece of the thing and it's almost $800. I have no idea how I'll ever manage to own this in the real unless I just completely gimp it and leave out the Karakas/Wastelands/Rishadan Ports/Vials/etc. The only card that should be dropping in price soon is the Stoneforge Mystic, and I dunno if she'll even drop that much.
 
Question about Sarkhan the Mad and his last ability.

If I have three 5/5 dragons on the battlefield, all ready to attack, and I use Sarkhans last ability to deal 15 damage to my opponent, will that prevent my dragons from tapping and attacking that same turn?
 
Leunam said:
Question about Sarkhan the Mad and his last ability.

If I have three 5/5 dragons on the battlefield, all ready to attack, and I use Sarkhans last ability to deal 15 damage to my opponent, will that prevent my dragons from tapping and attacking that same turn?

Nope, you can still attack with them.
 
traveler said:
That said, wow, this deck is NOT cheap. I don't own a single piece of the thing and it's almost $800. I have no idea how I'll ever manage to own this in the real unless I just completely gimp it and leave out the Karakas/Wastelands/Rishadan Ports/Vials/etc. The only card that should be dropping in price soon is the Stoneforge Mystic, and I dunno if she'll even drop that much.

Playable w/o ports and I don't know if the Mangara/Karakas trick is really all that great by modern Legacy standards. I think I might rather have something like Mirran Crusader+equipment or even a Aven Mindcensor in play.

Vials are an absolute must though. Playable w/o Wastelands, which you can build into the deck and "power up" over time. Note that Wastelands are often less effective in metagames that are less developed , that is, they might not be as good as they usually are in a metagame with a lot of newer legacy players.
 
How do you counter a burn deck with infect G/B or is that simply a counter matchup?

There's too many spells and pingers to kill off my creatures before they get the chance to do anything. I can carry only oh so many Vines of Vastwood. Maybe I should add more critters with higher toughness?
 
I honestly still don't know how to counter a burn deck with anything besides blue counter/mill.

I mean, green? Hard to ramp when your LLanowars are being smoted.
Black? Suck it, infect. BLASTO
White? LOL
 
Guys, I am gonna need your advice. My cards are 95% Scars/Besieged, and tomorrow I am buying an NPH fat pack. Is it worth it to buy an M11 deck builder toolkit right now? Or is that too expensive for what it is in it? I have the 4 ornithopter already, but still... if I am making a brand new build, I might wanna need it. Or?
 
I bought a 2011 toolkit and pulled a Primeval Titan.

Not that that is a good enough reason for buying one, but you never know. I'd go for it, but if you have a very specific idea you want to go for, you may find it cheaper to buy the individual cards.
 
V_Arnold said:
Guys, I am gonna need your advice. My cards are 95% Scars/Besieged, and tomorrow I am buying an NPH fat pack. Is it worth it to buy an M11 deck builder toolkit right now? Or is that too expensive for what it is in it? I have the 4 ornithopter already, but still... if I am making a brand new build, I might wanna need it. Or?

I liked the toolkit. I bought 2 of them and pulled some awesome stuff out of one, and terrible shit out of the other. Regardless, it's 20 bucks. Not a bad value, IMO.
 
Thanks...well, I'll sleep on it. Maybe see what are the cards in that NPH fat pack fisrst :D

I am thinking about creating a myr/artifact-based deck with a lot of sacrificed abilities in it. Then, some stuff which gets stronger after more cards are in the graveyard. It might work, especially with some of the new possibilities.
 
WanderingWind said:
I honestly still don't know how to counter a burn deck with anything besides blue counter/mill.

I mean, green? Hard to ramp when your LLanowars are being smoted.
Black? Suck it, infect. BLASTO
White? LOL

Um, Kor Firewalker? Baneslayer Angel? White's had Red's number since Repentant Blacksmith.
 
Akim said:
How much are these? If it isn't too much, I'd love to paypal you to pick one up for me.

They are $10. You should make the trip out to Providence to pick one up yourself, and maybe play in a GP while you're around.

I'm down for the paypal route though.
 
V_Arnold said:
Guys, I am gonna need your advice. My cards are 95% Scars/Besieged, and tomorrow I am buying an NPH fat pack. Is it worth it to buy an M11 deck builder toolkit right now? Or is that too expensive for what it is in it? I have the 4 ornithopter already, but still... if I am making a brand new build, I might wanna need it. Or?


Do you not have anywhere in town that sells packs for $3ish? A fat pack actually comes up to something like $4.50 a pack unless you actually *want* the other stuff in it.
 
WanderingWind said:
I honestly still don't know how to counter a burn deck with anything besides blue counter/mill.

I mean, green? Hard to ramp when your LLanowars are being smoted.
Black? Suck it, infect. BLASTO
White? LOL

This makes me cry. :'( Guess I will have to finally build another deck.
 
shoplifter said:
Do you not have anywhere in town that sells packs for $3ish? A fat pack actually comes up to something like $4.50 a pack unless you actually *want* the other stuff in it.

Well, where I buy the fat pack, it will cost me 7200 huf, which is exactly 800 per booster. If I buy individual boosters, it is 800 per booster. Therefore, it is exactly the same, but I get the nice looking box, hopefully NPH lands, and that stylish dice that I will never use, but who knows, maybe I will have children and grandchildren down in the line :D
 
Fragamemnon said:
Playable w/o ports and I don't know if the Mangara/Karakas trick is really all that great by modern Legacy standards. I think I might rather have something like Mirran Crusader+equipment or even a Aven Mindcensor in play.

Vials are an absolute must though. Playable w/o Wastelands, which you can build into the deck and "power up" over time. Note that Wastelands are often less effective in metagames that are less developed , that is, they might not be as good as they usually are in a metagame with a lot of newer legacy players.

Yeah, I was looking at lists and it seems the majority of the Taxes playerbase has shifted towards gw and gw with black splashes type decks, replacing Mangara with things like Goyf. All the variants seem to sport the Stoneforge Mystic + equipment package, though. I'd still like to go for the mono white variant as I just personally enjoy the playstyle of exploiting the stack that the Flickerwisps and Mangaras present, but if it ends up being much more ineffective than the other variants against today's fast combo centric meta, I'll switch.

Either way, it'll probably be a while before I get the pieces. The only card I owned out of the lists was the Vials but I sold my FTV Vial a month ago as I had no expectations of actually using it. In testing, the Vial is, as you said, absolutely necessary for pushing through countermagic though, so I'll have to take a loss and just buy some back. (As an aside, I wonder how Misstep is going to fit into this deck. Seems necessary to protect the Vial from other Missteps.)

As far as my meta goes, I dunno how undeveloped it'll be. Obviously, no one will have decks tuned or built for the others, but several of the players are really cutthroat guys with extensive collections and I'm sure a few will show up with netdecked picks from the last Starcity open. (EDH just became sanctioned this week and, with it, the end of proxies. Wonder why the guys with the big card collections want proxies gone now that we're playing for money. :/)

Edit: Aven Mindcensor is run in D&T? 3 seems a little high for a card that's that proactive. Mangara seems more reasonable there since he deals with threats after they hit rather than before. I would think even something like Leonin Arbiter would be more effective. (Of course, that shuts down our own Mystics, so I dunno if it's even worth it.)
 
y2dvd said:
This makes me cry. :'( Guess I will have to finally build another deck.

Plenty of ways to defeat burn other than counter. You can focus on using creatures with regenerate, protection from red, or shroud. Or creatures that have abilities when they hit the graveyard (perilous myr is great for this).
One strategy is to build a deck that purposefully wants it's creatures in the graveyard. I assume we are talking about type 2 so for instance, you could build an artifact based deck with red splashed in for scrapyard salvo (deals damage equal to the number of artifacts in your graveyard) and Slag Fiend (power and toughness equal to the artifacts in your graveyard.) So while you opponent is burning away all your artifact creatures to prevent from being overwhelmed, they are also giving you ammo to bust out a huge single burn spell or your own or a massive creature to stomp them with.
Throw in a bonehoard as well to capitalize on all your dead creatures. Phylactery Lich can work well here too.

Infect wise, throw in some Phyrexian Crusaders that have protection from red and laugh as you opponent slams his head on the table.
You could throw in spreading seas and evil presence to turn all their mountains into islands and swamps.

You can also just go super creature aggro, packing tons of cheap creatures in your deck so your opponent spends all his time trying to kill off the creatures and not being able to focus on you, until you can bust out something horrifying like a blightsteel collosus.

Someone mentioned leyline of sanctity, which definitely will fuck up any burn deck.

Haunting Echoes is hilarious to play against someone who goes through a ton of spells. Bust it out turn 5 and all those lightning bolts and other burn spells the player spend those 5 turns playing suddenly end up exiled from his library. Throw in some tome scours and archive traps to fatten up his graveyard before you bust it off.
 
The only times I've seen Mangara run away with a match is when the D&T player was already pretty far ahead. Most of the time the card is either answered, or is the last creature played. Most games against fair decks end with the first Jitte/Sword hit or an unanswered Serra Avenger, and most games against unfair decks end before Mangara gets online.

Edit: Aven Mindcensor is run in D&T? 3 seems a little high for a card that's that proactive. Mangara seems more reasonable there since he deals with threats after they hit rather than before. I would think even something like Leonin Arbiter would be more effective. (Of course, that shuts down our own Mystics, so I dunno if it's even worth it.)

I've run both and Mindscensor is often 10x the beating that Arbiter is. When you drag out a game, Arbiter gets less meaningful-he gets paid for and then ignored. Mindcensor flies and thus carries a sword better, and shuts down a lot of things in the format. Mindcensor is exceptionally better if you aren't running Wasteland.

Honestly you just might be better off playing Phyrexian Revokers instead of either of them.

The green splash is actually pretty solid, but I think you really want Wastelands to make it optimal due to the synergy with Knight of the Reliquary. That card does some seriously dumb stuff with Wasteland.
 
Also, just FYI on Death and Taxes, it's pretty much died as a competitive Legacy Deck. I haven't seen it make a strong showing in months. Merfolk, Junk, Team America have all been dominating with a few other exceptions.
 
I see. Haven't had any real experience in the format, so I was just picking a deck based off playstyle preference. Any particular why the deck is weaker now? Are High Tide and Ad Nauseum too fast? Is there any chance it can be modified to fight the current meta?

Re:Mindcensor- I guess I envisioned Legacy as an even faster format where it simply wouldn't hit the table in time. Of course, part of the Taxes idea seems to be to try to run the game long.

I was planning on running 4 of the Revokers regardless of what else went in, just because it's a really cheap card to get ahold of.
 
siddx said:
Also, just FYI on Death and Taxes, it's pretty much died as a competitive Legacy Deck. I haven't seen it make a strong showing in months. Merfolk, Junk, Team America have all been dominating with a few other exceptions.

It's still a good deck. Legacy is weird and has phases where people just play some decks more than others. Even old classics like Canadian Threshold, Aggro Loam, and Landstill can still put up solid performances when people actually play them. Well maybe not Landstill but that's because Standstill in control decks is terrible.

As for D&T, recent printings in key areas-creatures and equipment-along with a more combo-hostile format in a world with Mental Missteps and more Hymn to Tourachs, put it in an interesting place to experiment and try out some different directions for the deck. Even if it turns out to be more disruptive Mystic Weenie deck than Death and Taxes, he can still build toward it over time and tailor it for his metagame. It's just a shame they had to print retarded cards like Emrakul and Iona that made Karakas shoot up to one million dollars.

Regarding three mana-three-drops are casual plays in Legacy. You don't want to have too many in an aggressive deck, but having about five or six is just fine.
 
traveler said:
I see. Haven't had any real experience in the format, so I was just picking a deck based off playstyle preference. Any particular why the deck is weaker now? Are High Tide and Ad Nauseum too fast? Is there any chance it can be modified to fight the current meta?

Re:Mindcensor- I guess I envisioned Legacy as an even faster format where it simply wouldn't hit the table in time. Of course, part of the Taxes idea seems to be to try to run the game long.

I was planning on running 4 of the Revokers regardless of what else went in, just because it's a really cheap card to get ahold of.

When I first started playing legacy, Death and Taxes was the first deck I looked into as well actually.
Like Fraga said, there is still potential for it. Legacy decks definitely work on a constant up and down curve, with decks disappearing until someone figures out how to modify it to make it interesting and/or competitive again. Providence could be very interesting with New Phryexia dropping a week before.
 
siddx said:
Plenty of ways to defeat burn other than counter. You can focus on using creatures with regenerate, protection from red, or shroud. Or creatures that have abilities when they hit the graveyard (perilous myr is great for this).
One strategy is to build a deck that purposefully wants it's creatures in the graveyard. I assume we are talking about type 2 so for instance, you could build an artifact based deck with red splashed in for scrapyard salvo (deals damage equal to the number of artifacts in your graveyard) and Slag Fiend (power and toughness equal to the artifacts in your graveyard.) So while you opponent is burning away all your artifact creatures to prevent from being overwhelmed, they are also giving you ammo to bust out a huge single burn spell or your own or a massive creature to stomp them with.
Throw in a bonehoard as well to capitalize on all your dead creatures. Phylactery Lich can work well here too.

Infect wise, throw in some Phyrexian Crusaders that have protection from red and laugh as you opponent slams his head on the table.
You could throw in spreading seas and evil presence to turn all their mountains into islands and swamps.

You can also just go super creature aggro, packing tons of cheap creatures in your deck so your opponent spends all his time trying to kill off the creatures and not being able to focus on you, until you can bust out something horrifying like a blightsteel collosus.

Someone mentioned leyline of sanctity, which definitely will fuck up any burn deck.

Haunting Echoes is hilarious to play against someone who goes through a ton of spells. Bust it out turn 5 and all those lightning bolts and other burn spells the player spend those 5 turns playing suddenly end up exiled from his library. Throw in some tome scours and archive traps to fatten up his graveyard before you bust it off.

Thanks for the advice. I like the sound of Evil Presence since I play G/B. Is there an equivalent for forest? Haunting Echoes also sounds like a card I can use.
 
y2dvd said:
Thanks for the advice. I like the sound of Evil Presence since I play G/B. Is there an equivalent for forest? Haunting Echoes also sounds like a card I can use.

No forest equivalent as far as I know. But if you are playing black green, the phyrexian crusader is a must have, and green has a bunch of shroud/regenerate creatures. If you are specifically focusing on infect, blight mamba of course is a must have.
From the new set, mutagenic growth could be very useful, letting you pump your creature up by 2 to prevent it from getting burned off the board. And Phyrexian Obliterator is almost burn proof.

Haunting echoes is an interesting card. It's completely junk against certain decks, but any deck that relies on having a big graveyard (for knight of the reliquary or a dredge deck for instance) it can be devastating. And it's pretty decent against burn decks as well.
 
traveler said:
Playgroup is getting into legacy, so I'm checking the format out for the first time. Goldfished a bunch of decks and I think I've zeroed in on one I'd like to try out with actual cardboard- the mono white variant of Death and Taxes. The Flickerwisp/Aether Vial shenanigans are right up my alley and feel surprisingly similar to the way my Kiki EDH deck tricks do.

That said, wow, this deck is NOT cheap. I don't own a single piece of the thing and it's almost $800. I have no idea how I'll ever manage to own this in the real unless I just completely gimp it and leave out the Karakas/Wastelands/Rishadan Ports/Vials/etc. The only card that should be dropping in price soon is the Stoneforge Mystic, and I dunno if she'll even drop that much.

Are Rishadan Ports worth some money? I haven't played in ages and I think I have 2 of them somewhere.
 
Do it up!

Went to the local shop and did a pair of team drafts, two 2v2's. The first one the other team had insane decks, and the second one had nothing of value but a Batterskull and a foil Mortarpod, so we actually had a chance. That makes the single Batterskull I wanted. Still dont have any mental missteps though, hopefully I'll pick them up at the release on Saturday.
 
Alright guys its killing me to do this, but I dont have the time/money, and I dont live in a magic friendly college town so I'm trying to sell off some of the cards I have that i can get some money for. I REALLY dont feel like dealing with ebay shit, so I'm just gonna post stuff here and you guys see if you want anything.

12x Lord of Extinction
Jk no way am I giving these up

4x Scalding Tarn $35
3x Misty Rainforest $25
4x Arid Mesa $30
4x Lotus Cobra $40
1x 2010 Grand Prix Umezawa'a Jitte $20
1x Baneslayer $5

Anyway I'm about to put all this stuff on ebay so just PM me If you want something, if you want multiple things from the list you can make me an offer.

someone at the top of this page asked about selling and was told it was fine, so if I need to take this down just tell me
 
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