Support NeoGAF

[siddx]

This practice is (was) illegal and against DCI policy for sanctioned events. That is because it's so clunky, awkward, and rife with potential for abuse.

No judgment on your friend - I would want to do the same thing if allowed -, but if everyone were allowed to do that it would be a nightmare.

Oh wait - now everyone IS allowed to do this with certain cards in sanctioned DCI events. Well then. That's awkward.

Can you imagine a deck in the finals of a Pro Tour using checklist cards? So ghetto and unprofessional. Where do you keep the real copies of the cards before you play them? With your sideboard? Then what if you get deck-checked - how do they separate the sideboard from the double-sided cards? What if your sideboard contains double-sided cards? Ugh.

Considering it seems more and more players are slowplaying now a days, it will be a fucking nightmare. Between "fake" sideboarding where they sit there riffling through the sideboard only to not switch a fucking thing, or sitting there "thinking" when it becomes clear they are going to lose and want to run the clock out for a tie. Usually telling them if they don't make a decision I'm going to set their cards on fire gets them moving.

 

[darkside31337]

This practice is (was) illegal and against DCI policy for sanctioned events. That is because it's so clunky, awkward, and rife with potential for abuse.

No judgment on your friend - I would want to do the same thing if allowed -, but if everyone were allowed to do that it would be a nightmare.

Oh wait - now everyone IS allowed to do this with certain cards in sanctioned DCI events. Well then. That's awkward.

Can you imagine a deck in the finals of a Pro Tour using checklist cards? So ghetto and unprofessional. Where do you keep the real copies of the cards before you play them? With your sideboard? Then what if you get deck-checked - how do they separate the sideboard from the double-sided cards? What if your sideboard contains double-sided cards? Ugh.

Every single high level event requires the use of opaque card sleeves. It's not an issue at that level and pretty much nobody will be using the checklist cards. Double sided cards are less of a hassle than keeping track of counters on cards and other various mechanics.

Some tidbits from Maro:
1) Premium DFC are premium on both sides.
2) Every #mtginn booster has a DFC.
3) Three out of four #mtginn boosters has a checklist card. It's in the land slot. One less land art per land to adjust.
4) DFC cannot be turned face down. They don't have a face down
5) If you copy a DFC, you only copy the face up side.
6) If you play with opaque sleeves, you can play DFC's in your deck. If not, you use the checklist card.
7) DFC are always "sun side up" in zones other than on the battlefield (hand, graveyard, etc.).

Considering it seems more and more players are slowplaying now a days, it will be a fucking nightmare. Between "fake" sideboarding where they sit there riffling through the sideboard only to not switch a fucking thing, or sitting there "thinking" when it becomes clear they are going to lose and want to run the clock out for a tie. Usually telling them if they don't make a decision I'm going to set their cards on fire gets them moving.

That's not slow play. And neither is the second so long as it is not excessive.

 

[siddx]

That's not slow play. And neither is the second so long as it is not excessive.

If it wasn't excessive I wouldn't be mentioning it would I? If you are at 3 life, have 1 card in hand and no creatures on the board and you are "thinking" for 5 minutes about what your play will be you are deliberately delaying the game and are a piece of shit.

And taking 10 minutes to sideboard counts as slowplay in my book, fuck what you heard.

 

[darkside31337]

If it wasn't excessive I wouldn't be mentioning it would I? If you are at 3 life, have 1 card in hand and no creatures on the board and you are "thinking" for 5 minutes about what your play will be you are deliberately delaying the game and are a piece of shit.

And taking 10 minutes to sideboard counts as slowplay in my book, fuck what you heard.

What? You call a judge over.

They have 3 minutes to sideboard + shuffle their deck, that's the rule. You giving them 10 minutes would be just as much your fault as theirs.

 

[Keru_Shiri]

If it wasn't excessive I wouldn't be mentioning it would I? If you are at 3 life, have 1 card in hand and no creatures on the board and you are "thinking" for 5 minutes about what your play will be you are deliberately delaying the game and are a piece of shit.

And taking 10 minutes to sideboard counts as slowplay in my book, fuck what you heard.

If a match goes to time, you're allowed five more turns to finish out the game, before resolving it as a draw. And high-level players have been called out for taking too long to "think," and have been slapped down with penalties and DQ. I you suspect something is up, call a judge.

 

[siddx]

What? You call a judge over.

They have 3 minutes to sideboard + shuffle their deck, that's the rule. You giving them 10 minutes would be just as much your fault as theirs.

Not every event has a competent judge. 5k or Grand Prix? Obviously. But the local store has one judge who is friends with everyone who plays and likes to be liked more than do his job. Which is unfortunately more common than it should be.
There was one guy who was really bad about doing this with his sideboarding. If he lost the first game, he'd spend 10 minutes sideboarding and the judge, who happened to have gone to school with him, would say "he has a right to sideboard" everytime we complained. You gave me an idea though, next time I'm bringing a print out of the rules and a timer and when 3 minutes hits I'm going to grab his cards and throw them in the air like I'm making it rain (no not really I'll just call the judge and show him the rule if he doesn't do anything about it).

 

[alternade]

Thinking about this more, How often do you or an opponent go without casting a spell? Im sure there will be a Transformation lord or spell to do this but just the trigger alone seems hard to get.

 

[darkside31337]

Thinking about this more, How often do you or an opponent go without casting a spell? Im sure there will be a Transformation lord or spell to do this but just the trigger alone seems hard to get.

It's actually a great wrinkle for limited. It drastically alters the value of Instant spells and mana sinks and when and how you want to actually play / use them.

 

[PushTheButtonMax]

Using checklist cards seems a little clunky, guess I'm going to have to get some sleeves now. I think it's a cool mechanic though.

 

[darkside31337]

If Wizards was smart they'd be giving everybody who showed up to pre-release/release event some free sleeves just so people don't realize how clunky the checklist cards are.

Huge boon for sleeve companies though (which includes Wizards). This is as close as it'll get to making sleeves mandatory I guess.

 

[siddx]

Olivia Voldaren might be a fun commander, it's been a while since I made a new EDH deck, I might try to modify my Anowan deck to use her as a commander.

Sleeve manufacturers don't need the extra help, I'm still grumbling over the fact they sell in packs of 50 so you are forced to buy two of them lol.

 

[Chojin]

At the Double Faced Cards: Wow... That's kinda neat but also kind of underwhelming. Like someone said before it's a clunkier flip card. At least you can put more rules and stuff and more art. But I think that's such a tiny advantage over having such an awkward mechanic. All I can say is how much I love MtGO and not having to worry about checklist cards ;p

I mean even if you play sleeves imagine how time consuming and annoying it's going to be. You got a flipped creature, now it dies, before it goes into the graveyard you have to take the card again out of the sleeve, flip it over and put it back into the graveyard. If you blink it or bounce it or remove from the game you have to take it out of the sleeve and then flip it over and put it back into the sleeve.

It just makes everything more tedious.

Flip cards: Simple. This is not elegant at all.


Enemy duals is awesome though

And the flavor for this set is friggan sweet. Aside from the new mechanic, I'm super hyped!


Edit:

Egad... so reading on mtgsalvation on some of the spoiled cards and I'm ... uh... How do I even start?

Lets take this for example

Spoiler

Screeching Bat
Creature - Bat
Flying

At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay 2BB. If you do, transform Screeching Bat.
2/2

Flipped:

Stalking Vampire
Creature - Vampire
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay 2BB. If you do, transform Stalking Vampire.
5/5

Now tell me, please, I'm begging you, how this could not have been achieved on one side with already existing rules? I know this is supposed to be the flavor of the set, but it doesn't add anything at all.

In the past MaRo (I wish I could find the article) responded to criticism that a lot of new mechanics coming out were pretty much rehashes of kicker. I believe this was during Kamigawa block in response to splice. And MaRo stated he acknowledged and had to push card design farther. This doesn't seem much better.

Though again it's just one card. I see another card:

Spoiler

Creature - Lizard
Defender
1U: Put a hatchling counter on Ludevic's Test Subject. Then if there are five or more hatchling counters on it, remove all of them and transform it.
0/3

Flipped:
Ludevic's Abomination
Creature - Lizard Horror
Trample
13/13

Now I can see where they are going with this. Sorta... It eliminates the need for counters to signify a state based change. This is very important because WoTC doesn't like to use counters other than charge or +1/+1 unless it really has to. Sadly I think both are just as cumbersome but I think double faced cards are more so. We'll just have to see

If it allowed you to transform other creatures TOO I could see the reason for that design. But again, how is this card not possible on one face? I'm not even talking about it being flipped. This card could have been printed on one face without adding a wall of text.

This is totally a flavor mechanic. I'm not saying mechanics need to change the face of magic (pun intended cause this totally is ;p) but there should be a point to it. This seems like they've added the mechanic for the sake of creating a mechanic and the reason was "just cause."

With that said, I'm buying the ever loving spoonful out of this set

 

[darkside31337]

I honestly don't get how people say flip cards were NOT clunky.

With these new cards, you're potentially flipping them every turn or quite often. Flip cards were a PAIN because they got tapped. Some people tap clockwise and some tap counterclockwise which caused all kinds of confusion to which side the card was.

DFC eliminates all those issues but obviously causes a few on its own.

 

[siddx]

Wasn't Garfield involved with this set? You'd think he'd know better, but maybe he's just out of touch.

Or maybe i'll hold on to the same naive hope I have everytime a shitty mechanic is introduced, that the expansions will somehow make it awesome.

 

[Chojin]

I honestly don't get how people say flip cards were NOT clunky.

With these new cards, you're potentially flipping them every turn or quite often. Flip cards were a PAIN because they got tapped. Some people tap clockwise and some tap counterclockwise which caused all kinds of confusion to which side the card was.

DFC eliminates all those issues but obviously causes a few on its own.

Again, I must have lazy hands, cause that's such a pain in the ass.

I never understood tapping counter-clockwise. The symbol even points you in the right direction. The only people that I could think of that could ever have tapped counter-clockwise were people that played Alpha and Beta. And well... yeah...

Was Garfield involved with this set? You'd think he'd know better, but maybe he's just out of touch.

Or maybe i'll hold on to the same naive hope I have everytime a shitty mechanic is introduced, that the expansions will somehow make it awesome.

As a matter of fact he was. This set marks his return since Ravnica. And I'll be honest, the mechanic is so Garfieldesque Remember this is the same guy who wanted a pink card back for Arabian nights No disrespect to the man at all, but I can see what he was going with on this.

 

[siddx]

Again, I must have lazy hands, cause that's such a pain in the ass.

I never understood tapping counter-clockwise. The symbol even points you in the right direction. The only people that I could think of that could ever have tapped counter-clockwise were people that played Alpha and Beta. And well... yeah...





As a matter of fact he was. This set marks his return since Ravnica. And I'll be honest, the mechanic is so Garfieldesque Remember this is the same guy who wanted a pink card back for Arabian nights No disrespect to the man at all, but I can see what he was going with on this.

You've got a point, some of the older cards were pretty bizarre, I remember opening packs and once in a while going "wait...what the fuck!?"
I actually mentioned to someone that I was hoping magic might go back to that a little bit, just weird stuff, cards that do odd things (destroy all cards from a specific set) at least just for a single expansion or something. Who knows, once I actually play with the cards I may actually like them. And in the end, it's just one set, the mechanic will be gone next block or maybe even next expansion. On to the next one.

 

[Chojin]

You've got a point, some of the older cards were pretty bizarre, I remember opening packs and once in a while going "wait...what the fuck!?"
I actually mentioned to someone that I was hoping magic might go back to that a little bit, just weird stuff, cards that do odd things (destroy all cards from a specific set) at least just for a single expansion or something. Who knows, once I actually play with the cards I may actually like them. And in the end, it's just one set, the mechanic will be gone next block or maybe even next expansion. On to the next one.

Well... cards specifically like Golgathian Sylex and Apocalypse Chime won't ever happen again due to reprint confusion even though its pretty specific in the rules that the cards they destroy need to have the expansion symbol. I know what you are saying though. MaRo said we'll visit the "Un-" set again someday, so you'll get plenty of bizzare. But I think you're wanting something a bit more standard or hell, actual play legal.

There's still room for that and we still get stuff like that. Red has pleny of Chaos cards. Hell, Sundial of the Infinite is just... bizzare. The problem is that the game is now very defined by language and mechanics. Before if you couldn't do something you just made shit up, and BLAMMO instant card. You created your own keyword, slapped +2/-1 counters on things, put "chips" on a Cyclone. As the game evovled, creature types were streamlined, mechanics were set, language was put into law, and design philosophy was such that "if you can already do it with the existing mechanics then do it with the existing mechanics."

I kinda feel that Innistrad is throwing that last part out of the window. And I don't think its for the worse, I just think the whole Transform thing should have been shelved until it could have been made less awkward. It just smells of "well we GOTTA do transformations" because FLAVOR so fuck it!

Also, with flashback returning (and possibly delve and threshold but I'm willing to be those will be in Dark Ascension) there's going to be a mechanics glut. Though I guess transform is their "premier" mechanic, it just seems kinda underwhelming.


Edit: I really hate flossing a dead horse but really, tell me what Transform does that Sengir Nosferatu hasn't done already and better? And if you say "Protection from Ixidron" I'm going to smack you
I'd rather read a wall of text than have to fiddle with checklists and flipping my cards in and out of my sleeve.

So again, thank god for MtGO

 

[siddx]

True, a lot of those old cards wouldn't work anymore with the way things evolved. I think it's more an overall feel that I am nostalgic for. The old, simple, sometimes even borderline ugly art, the cards with giant walls of incomprehensible text, the cards that had character basically. But the game is better without that (at least the second thing) so its silly of me to miss it.

I think one of the more disappointing things about the transform mechanic is it doesn't fit with existing decks (at first glance at least, maybe someone will figure out something awesome). It's always interesting to see a new mechanic come in and modify existing decks or force them to change to adapt, kind of like phyrexian mana somewhat did with mental misstep and dismember getting slotted into existing top tier decks. I don't see transform getting play from anyone except in casual and by round 1 scrubs who go 0-5 every FNM.

 

[Chojin]

True, a lot of those old cards wouldn't work anymore with the way things evolved. I think it's more an overall feel that I am nostalgic for. The old, simple, sometimes even borderline ugly art, the cards with giant walls of incomprehensible text, the cards that had character basically. But the game is better without that (at least the second thing) so its silly of me to miss it.

I think one of the more disappointing things about the transform mechanic is it doesn't fit with existing decks (at first glance at least, maybe someone will figure out something awesome). It's always interesting to see a new mechanic come in and modify existing decks or force them to change to adapt, kind of like phyrexian mana somewhat did with mental misstep and dismember getting slotted into existing top tier decks. I don't see transform getting play from anyone except in casual and by round 1 scrubs who go 0-5 every FNM.

Whats's really interesting is that Morbid works so well with this. But not for scars, for M12! Morbid and Bloodlust are peanut butter and chocolate with some marshmallows and bananas for good measure. Both the fear of Morbid and Bloodlust will cause havoc and make combat much more aggrocentric. Think about it, you can safely run your bear into whatever the opponent has because the opponent has to think "Do I block the bear and risk getting Morbid(deded) or do I let it through and get Bloodlusted." I might actually play aggro now!

What I wonder is how any of the Scars stuff interacts with the Innistrad stuff. I was really hoping proliferate would somehow interact with Innistrad. Usually blocks have "carry over" mechanics that are synergistic with the next but this really... kinda fails. I wonder how transform interacts with -1/-1 counters. Let me do a quick check...

"During transformations, Auras, Equipment and Counters stay on the creature."

Yeah... so that doesn't even interact.

This is proving to be a very exciting yet confusing set for me. Its got the theme I want, the designers I want, the off the wall I want, but it just seems... lacking.

Ah well, just wait for more previews I guess

 

[siddx]

Whats's really interesting is that Morbid works so well with this. But not for scars, for M12! Morbid and Bloodlust are peanut butter and chocolate with some marshmallows and bananas for good measure. Both the fear of Morbid and Bloodlust will cause havoc and make combat much more aggrocentric. Think about it, you can safely run your bear into whatever the opponent has because the opponent has to think "Do I block the bear and risk getting Morbid(deded) or do I let it through and get Bloodlusted." I might actually play aggro now!

What I wonder is how any of the Scars stuff interacts with the Innistrad stuff. I was really hoping proliferate would somehow interact with Innistrad. Usually blocks have "carry over" mechanics that are synergistic with the next but this really... kinda fails. I wonder how transform interacts with -1/-1 counters. Let me do a quick check...

"During transformations, Auras, Equipment and Counters stay on the creature."

Yeah... so that doesn't even interact.

This is proving to be a very exciting yet confusing set for me. Its got the theme I want, the designers I want, the off the wall I want, but it just seems... lacking.

Ah well, just wait for more previews I guess

The only card I see where proliferate works is that 0/3 defender that turns into a 13/13 with 5 counters. But otherwise yeah, nothing so far. But we still have a lot of cards to go so hopefully.
Morbid + Bloodlust (bloodthirst?) does sound great, I never thought of that, might throw together a nice red/green or black deck for casual play.

 

[Chojin]

The only card I see where proliferate works is that 0/3 defender that turns into a 13/13 with 5 counters. But otherwise yeah, nothing so far. But we still have a lot of cards to go so hopefully.
Morbid + Bloodlust (bloodthirst?) does sound great, I never thought of that, might throw together a nice red/green or black deck for casual play.

Er yeah, bloodthirst. Sorry I was playing the old Microprose MtG game earlier today.

Edit:
Also Forsythe confirmed that flipped cards will have CMC = 0. Werewolves, the deck that was dead a month before they were released. R.I.P.

 

[WanderingWind]

I've only spoiled myself once, just to check out the mechanic.

First, awesome work on keeping the thread spoiler-free. Secondly, transform and morbid seem awesome! It definitely adds some much needed flavor to the set and the sheer amount of things they can do with the two mechanics means we're bound to see some utterly broken shit in this block...which is always fun. For a very short while, at least.

 

[siddx]

I'm trying to think of a way the CMC being 0 could be beneficial to the player. I'm coming up blank. RIP indeed.
But again, I keep bitching and keeping saying this afterwards but maybe, just maybe there are some cards yet to be revealed that will make the mechanic better.

 

[Piecake]

Kinda funny. I got back into playing magic through 2012 planeswalker and just checked out my very casual deck that I used to play with like 15 years ago. Apparently, my annoying weenie white blue banding, kismet, meekstone deck would be banned today, haha. Not saying that my deck was awesome or anything, since it probably does suck, but i found it rather funny. Snow covered lands seem to have gone bye bye as well. Oh, youthful memories

 

[ajf009]

not really sure how I feel about double sided cards yet.. it's a way cool idea but just seems like a pain in the ass... I guess I'll wait until I can play with it before I decide it's more annoying than cool

 

[darkside31337]

It's hilarious how crazy people are over at MTGS screaming Magic is dead. I wish I had a nickel for every time people said Magic was dead after some new mechanic / design / decision.

Leave it to a mod to be putting people in their place - http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=7209706&postcount=43

Pretty much nailed it. I'm not exactly sure how I'll feel about it until I actually play with it.

I thought Zendikar was going to be an insanely boring limited format but it turned into one of my favorites. I thought Mirrodin would be awesome because poison is cool. Poison is one of the worst mechanics ever.

So I'll just give it a shot. It's different and kind of refreshing which is nice. I'm already digging this set a ton from the non-gameplay side which is more than I could say about Scars block.

 

[Hero]

It's hilarious how crazy people are over at MTGS screaming Magic is dead. I wish I had a nickel for every time people said Magic was dead after some new mechanic / design / decision.

Leave it to a mod to be putting people in their place - http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=7209706&postcount=43

Pretty much nailed it. I'm not exactly sure how I'll feel about it until I actually play with it.

I thought Zendikar was going to be an insanely boring limited format but it turned into one of my favorites. I thought Mirrodin would be awesome because poison is cool. Poison is one of the worst mechanics ever.

So I'll just give it a shot. It's different and kind of refreshing which is nice. I'm already digging this set a ton from the non-gameplay side which is more than I could say about Scars block.

Yeah I'm reserving judgment until I get a chance to play it but right now I'm kind of ho-hum about it. With all the various clone effects in the format I think someone putting a lot of effort into transforming some of the better cards only to have the new face side up night version cloned will be pretty sour. But we'll see.

And yeah, despite the broken aspect of original Mirrordin block I still loved it and when we went back to the plane this year I was excited. But I think infect turned out kind of poorly and the Mirran cards were generally pretty gimped.

 

[darkside31337]

Glad to see Ghost Quarter is back - http://yfrog.com/z/kea3sbrj

Always love creative fog variants - http://yfrog.com/mgf9rwxj

Like the new doll but not as cool as Stuffy - http://yfrog.com/hwx4onj

Probably my favorite common spoiled yet, very cool card - http://yfrog.com/18uiuhtj

http://yfrog.com/j2l1xej
http://yfrog.com/h7po5vqoj
http://yfrog.com/me5qktj

 

[Chojin]

After doing so soulsearching and thinking about this game that I love, I'm going to go on a rant. I'm also going to direct my rant at one person in particular, I don't mean to wish him any true offense, but the more that I think of it, the more I can blame this on him >;p

The thing is, I've noticed a trend in magic for the past 3 or 4 years, and that's the idea that Transforming creatures is what everyone wants and so WoTC is shoving Transforming creatures down our throats. Rise of the Eldrazi had Level Up, Scars block had Living Weapon, and now we just throw out all pretenses and go with Transform.

The person I blame for this is Brian Tinsman. No, not because he was head of design on Rise, but because of one card: Figure of Destiny. Figure was Brian's baby through and through, and the one thing about Figure is that you cannot deny how popular that card was. It's efficient, it gets good early or late, its everything a creature wants to be. On Magic Online, the card can fetch for up to 20 bucks, almost 30 if foil. On the paper side, it still commands a decent 8 dollar value. It was also a prerelease PROMO for crying out loud, so it's not like there aren't a lot of them out in the wild.

Obviously someone in WoTC's marketing team saw this and thought "HOLY SHIT, PEOPLE want transforming creatures!" So every set since then (skipped Alara block cause it was already created by the time Eventide was released) Wizards has been trying to throw the transforming creature angle at us. And in a way it makes sense, combat needs to be on the rise for a healthier environment, you need to give people a reason to play creatures. But it's warped into a monster.

First they started out subtlely, they threw in TukTuk the Explorer and really whats not to love about the guy. He's cheap, hasty, and begs to be blocked. Cept nobody played him.

Well, Brian was the lead on Rise and they really pulled out the guns, we got LEVELERS! Tons and tons of cards that can be used to transform themselves, and except for Joraga Treespeaker nobody played them...

Then they had to think back a little bit, herm... nobody is playing our transforming d00ds! But people LOVE transforming d00ds! Look at Figure of Destiny! So we get Living weapon, and I'll be honest, I LOOOOVE living weapons. They're very efficient and they TRANSFORM into equipment! Except... unless you're exploiting the fact they're also creatures for Puresteel or you had a Stoneforge mystic, nobody played them...

Seeing a trend here? Transform is the culmination of all of this. I mean, on paper, whats better than a creature? A creature thats TWO creatures! Moar is better! Actually, a better creature is a better creature.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think this is a horrible, awful, omfug this will destroy magic as we know it. It just seems strange that WoTC is pushing transforming creatures en mass. I mean we've had certain cards that did that, like Giant Caterpillar, but nothing on this scale.

 

[darkside31337]

Does every mechanic have to be constructed viable?

I think this is way more viable than level up simply because it's not dependent on you wasting mana at sorcery speed, doing nothing is actually a much more viable and easier to achieve trigger clause in terms of competitive, especially if you're playing blue.

But outside of that it's less than 10% of the set. There are 20 double sided cards in the set. Even just in terms of just looking at the set itself, what makes or breaks this set won't actually be the double faced cards.

 

[Chojin]

Does every mechanic have to be constructed viable?

I think this is way more viable than level up simply because it's not dependent on you wasting mana at sorcery speed, doing nothing is actually a much more viable and easier to achieve trigger clause in terms of competitive, especially if you're playing blue.

But outside of that it's less than 10% of the set. There are 20 double sided cards in the set. Even just in terms of just looking at the set itself, what makes or breaks this set won't actuall be the double faced cards.

I don't think every mechanic has to be constructed viable. My main rant was introducing a new mechanic that really doesn't offer anything new in terms of design.

Doing nothing so far we've only seen on Green. The blue Transform card requires an activation cost as well as the black one.

As for Level Up, my second rant was specifically talking about that, only one level up creature really saw any real constructed play. If you really want me to get into talking about "doing nothing", that really is kinda bad for the game don't you think? My creature gets better if I don't do anything? That seems kinda odd considering WoTC has been pushing a "tap out", proactive strategy than reactive drawgo.

And as I said, I'm waiting for more previews. My thoughts are just an initial reaction to this Transform mechanic. I'm fairly certain there's going to be tons of other great cards I'll be using. I never call a set a failure, cept for maybe Homelands.

 

[The Technomancer]

I dunno, am I the only one who thinks that its going to be very satisfying to physically flip cards around? Proxies are clunky but I love the actual dual sided cards.

 

[The Xtortionist]

I dunno, am I the only one who thinks that its going to be very satisfying to physically flip cards around? Proxies are clunky but I love the actual dual sided cards.

I've sleeved enough cards in my lifetime that I would have to say "no".

 

[Chojin]

I dunno, am I the only one who thinks that its going to be very satisfying to physically flip cards around? Proxies are clunky but I love the actual dual sided cards.

On Magic Online? Sure. Physically in and out constantly sleeving and resleeving? Not very likely for me. It's bad enough to have to watch someone ponder/top shuffle, ponder/top shuffle, brainstorm/shuffle in a match than have to watch some guy sleeve and resleeve his werewolves every turn.

 

[darkside31337]

Technically you don't have to resleeve it once it's on the field. I know I sure won't be constantly taking the card in and out unless the card has some significant monetary value.

 

[bigkrev]

I'm not fully against the 2-sided cards yet. In draft, it could improve signaling, especially at low level/new player FNM settings. Someone actually seeing that you took a blue card vs being shipped a pack with a Fireball, Overrun and a missing uncommon (and knowing you took Mind Control). I'm all for mechanics that help newer players learn to play better- I love that Bloodthirst teaches players to play spells after combat.

As for constructed, we need to see all of the cards before making a judgement. It might just be that none of them end up tournament viable. And if it becomes a real problem in tournaments, they can always rush together a fix- after complaints in Mirrodin that the artifact frames were too close to the white ones, they managed to darken them for Fifth Dawn.

I'm going to wait for the full spoiler and the first major standard tournament before I freak out.

 

[Chojin]

Technically you don't have to resleeve it once it's on the field. I know I sure won't be constantly taking the card in and out unless the card has some significant monetary value.

You do if you have to flip it again, based on the mechanics, werewolves will seem to do that on a regular basis

 

[darkside31337]

You do if you have to flip it again, based on the mechanics, werewolves will seem to do that on a regular basis

If you're using sleeves, it's pretty straightforward. You'll want to put the double-faced card in the sleeve with its front face showing, and take it out of the sleeve when it transforms. (Putting it back in is optional, at least until it leaves the battlefield.)

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/157b

Unless they are blatantly misrepresenting rules in their primer articles you don't have to put it back in the sleeve until it leaves the field.

 

[Chojin]

If you're using sleeves, it's pretty straightforward. You'll want to put the double-faced card in the sleeve with its front face showing, and take it out of the sleeve when it transforms. (Putting it back in is optional, at least until it leaves the battlefield.)

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/157b

Unless they are blatantly misrepresenting rules in their primer articles you don't have to put it back in the sleeve until it leaves the field.

I'm not sure if we're on the same page here. Say I got a human who's on the battlefield all sleeved up and ready to go. Then my opponent doesn't cast a spell on his turn, then my upkeep comes along, I have to take the card out, flip it over so he's now a werewolf, and then resleeve it. Then on my turn, I cast another creature, then at the end of turn my opponent doom blade's the just now cast creature, on my opponent's upkeep, the werewolf transforms back into a human. You're saying I just flip the card over so the backside is up?

I really don't think so, you have to take the card out of the sleeve yet again, and then flip it over, resleeve the damn card. Imagine doing this every turn. Imagine doing this every turn with both players having werewolves.

I see, you're saying you shouldn't resleeve the card, which defeats the purpose of a sleeve in itself.

 

[darkside31337]

I'm not sure if we're on the same page here. Say I got a human who's on the battlefield all sleeved up and ready to go. Then my opponent doesn't cast a spell on his turn, then my upkeep comes along, I have to take the card out, flip it over so he's now a werewolf, and then resleeve it. Then on my turn, I cast another creature, then at the end of turn my opponent doom blade's the just now cast creature, on my opponent's upkeep, the werewolf transforms back into a human. You're saying I just flip the card over so the backside is up?

I really don't think so, you have to take the card out of the sleeve yet again, and then flip it over, resleeve the damn card. Imagine doing this every turn. Imagine doing this every turn with both players having werewolves.

I see, you're saying you shouldn't resleeve the card, which defeats the purpose of a sleeve in itself.

No all your cards have to be sleeved for deck shuffling purposes, otherwise obviously you know where your DFC cards are in your deck at all times.

When the card is on the field it really doesn't matter if it's sleeved or not because one side of the card will always be on the table anyway, so there really is no need to physically put the card back into the sleeve every time you flip it over. The card never has to be put back into the sleeve at any point it's on the battlefield after you take it out of the sleeve once. When it leaves play, either to the graveyard, exiled or back into your hand then you have to put it back into the sleeve.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/158

New preview at the start. Hate how the transformed cards are a pain to link to. A unique kind of Merfolk Looter which is obviously already good in limited.

 

[The Technomancer]

I see, you're saying you shouldn't resleeve the card, which defeats the purpose of a sleeve in itself.

The only purpose of a sleeve for me is shuffle protection, and to a lesser extend general wear and tear. I don't really have a problem leaving a card unsleeved on the battlefield and re-sleeving it when it dies or gets shuffled or whatever.

Also I just noticed that their using the present-shifted color scheme for the text and text boxes on transformed cards.

Also also if I have one complaint so far stylistically its that a lot of the transform cards have really boring or just awkward names.

 

[Chojin]

The only purpose of a sleeve for me is shuffle protection, and to a lesser extend general wear and tear. I don't really have a problem leaving a card unsleeved on the battlefield and re-sleeving it when it dies or gets shuffled or whatever.

Also I just noticed that their using the present-shifted color scheme for the text and text boxes on transformed cards.

Well, color me wrong. It's an awesome mechanic. Not tedious whatsoever.

 

[darkside31337]

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/arcana/786

The pre-release/release cards. Really digging the full art cards but I can't remember the last time I didn't like one of those. Devil's Play buy a box looks a lot better than the regular art.

 

[ajf009]

I think you're making a big deal out of nothing with the re-sleaving cards point.. just wait and see how many of the transforming cards actually get used very often before you say it's going to slow the game down and be a huge waste of time

 

[Chojin]

I think you're making a big deal out of nothing with the re-sleaving cards point.. just wait and see how many of the transforming cards actually get used very often before you say it's going to slow the game down and be a huge waste of time

You're right. I shouldn't discuss the mechanic itself. I should just ignore it.

Edit:

So in MaRo's article today its revealed that every pack will have a double sided card in it taking up the common slot. Each of course will have its own rarity. This of course means in draft there will be tons of double sided creatures being thrown around.

Again, thank god for MtGO.

 

[ajf009]

You're right. I shouldn't discuss the mechanic itself. I should just ignore it.

i never said that.. I'm just saying don't brand it tedious and a time waster when you haven't even used it

 

[darkside31337]

Forgot to mention this earlier
http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=mtg/tcg/innistrad/cig#

Official Visual Spoiler of everything spoiled so far including a handful of new cards.

 

[Hex]

Many more spoiled today on the visual spoiler


Edit: Not really sure why so many people are all salty about the double sided cards.
Just do what I am doing and get at least two copies of the card so you can have one side in a sleeve and the other side in a sleeve and just swap as needed.

Problem solved.


In draft it is not a big deal either because I always draft in sleeves and there will be the check list card anyway.

I swear people just can not function if they do not have something to bitch about.

 

[darkside31337]

Edit: Not really sure why so many people are all salty about the double sided cards.
Just do what I am doing and get at least two copies of the card so you can have one side in a sleeve and the other side in a sleeve and just swap as needed.

In draft it is not a big deal either because I always draft in sleeves and there will be the check list card anyway.

Not gonna lie, I would have never thought of that . That's genius although illegal in anything competitive.

And yeah it doesn't matter to me or most people I play with because they thankfully draft with sleeves.

It always makes me cringe watching people play with money rares / mythics at a draft and they can't bother to put their cards in sleeves.

 

[Hex]

Not gonna lie, I would have never thought of that . That's genius although illegal in anything competitive.

And yeah it doesn't matter to me or most people I play with because they thankfully draft with sleeves.

It always makes me cringe watching people play with money rares / mythics at a draft and they can't bother to put their cards in sleeves.

In a tourney it is completely legal, it is just a token.
Same way I keep ten infect tokens sleeved for when needed and I have tokens of various other types sleeved.
I assure you it will be quite legal.
I do usually use a different color sleeve for tokens though just to make sure I do not confuse myself.