Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
That definitely wouldn't work. If you actually counter it then it never comes to activate to exile something initially. Countering definitely can't permanently exile something.
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Magic: The Gathering |OT|
- Thread starter The Technomancer
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That definitely wouldn't work. If you actually counter it then it never comes to activate to exile something initially. Countering definitely can't permanently exile something.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Well, I've been playing zombies pretty much exclusively and playtesting has shown these to be of particular issue
Terminus - Gravecrawler removal, stops Messanger from being useful.
Angel of Jubilation - Stops Mortarpod/Messenger/Gravecrawler/Captain combos dead.
Angel of Glory's Rise - Very castable in green white and humans are ubiquitous enough where people will play this regardless.
Holy Justicar - Auto zombie exiles?
Pillar - Dead horse beating on this one.
Diregraf Escort - It's a one drop that soulbonds into protection from zombies.
In return, zombies got
Scrapskin Drake - Pretty awesome to have a flying zombie with no downside.
Terminus - Gravecrawler removal, stops Messanger from being useful.
Angel of Jubilation - Stops Mortarpod/Messenger/Gravecrawler/Captain combos dead.
Angel of Glory's Rise - Very castable in green white and humans are ubiquitous enough where people will play this regardless.
Holy Justicar - Auto zombie exiles?
Pillar - Dead horse beating on this one.
Diregraf Escort - It's a one drop that soulbonds into protection from zombies.
In return, zombies got
Scrapskin Drake - Pretty awesome to have a flying zombie with no downside.
A well-built zombie deck should have no problem with anything there except a miracled terminus or pillar. Your opponent should be pretty much dead before Angel of Glory's Rise is cast (which is too narrow to see even sideboard play). What's your list?
...also, has anyone ever actually cast a Holy Justicar or Diregraf Escort in a tournament? My reaction to either would be "neat, I got a bye!"
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
That's what people have been saying about every drop over 5. Except they still happen all the time, and G/W humans is coming out the gate as a very popular deck.
If zombies are still around in anything beside outliers decks, I'll be happy to eat my words. But early results show there are too many cards specifically tuned to get rid of zombies and their way of doing things.
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck_...n=MTGO Standard Daily (4-0) - Week of 5/14/12
Almost all of this is post-AVR, which was made standard legal last thursday on MTGO IIRC. Aside from major tournaments, MTGO is the most competitive metagame there is. It's still a very real deck, and none of those sideboard options see any play aside from Pillar.
EDIT: Waiiit, most of those are still DKA standard. It still won a couple Open qualifiers and got at least one top 32 in the open, lemme just find decklists. Either way, the slight loss of relevance (none of which matters at an FNM level of competition) is due to a combination of RG aggro and wolf-run improving vastly and pillar of flame being printed; not the other sideboard options, which I can't find a single instance of.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
G/W humans would never use those cards though is what he's saying. They're way to narrow focused to be something that is going to be a serious contender in a deck.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
What's the big addition to R/G besides bonfire?
Wolfir Avenger -- Flash is relevant post board wipe, and you can mash creatures into it all day.... Not to mention a respectible whipflare-proof body
Wolfir Silverheart -- IT MAKES THINGS BIG. UW is still powerful, but delver being less prevalent means less copies of vapor snag... Which means this card is fairly safe as a 1-2 of maindeck. It can blow out games.
Pillar of Flame -- ends the exceptionally awkward zombie matchup
Zealous Conscripts -- TERRIFIES wolf-run players, to the point that some will hold back on casting titans if they suspect you're holding one.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=46253
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
Ah, didn't realize anything was using silver heart. I figured it was too slow. And ya, conscripts and wolfir are amazing.
zerokoolpsx
Member
Activate my fiend hunter's second ability first "when it leaves the battlefield" when I use cloudshift so it does not actually have a target creature to return and then when it returns activate its first ability so I permanently exile the targeted creature. That's how people do it.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
I don't understand, could you explain that more. Does that mean you didn't return a creature initially? They said they would exile a creature, flicker it and then the first is exiled and then temporarily exile another. How does it not have a target when it leaves?
Edit: Ya, I was right it's the stack. You're not activating anything first. Before the returning resolves the other effect of entering activates then the second ability of leaving the battlefield resolves then choosing a target does.
zerokoolpsx
Member
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
Ok, so think of it as two different creatures. It leaves so fiend hunter #1 leaving effect enters the stack. The enter for the "second" fiend hunter goes off and picks a creature. When fiend hunter #1's leave trigger resolves it's no longer targeting a creature since the creature linked to the fiend hunter is gone, and that fiend hunter is not there so it never comes back.
Edit: Wait, so do you have to do it as soon as you play it? That seems to be what all the examples are of. So if I do it say two turns after playing it, it wouldn't exile or it still would? All the examples I see are when you initially play it.
zerokoolpsx
Member
Oh I get it. The fiend hunter is "like a new creature" and the LTB and ETB of the previous fiend hunter does nothing.
echoshifting
Banned
My play group hates that move so much I don't even bother with it. It is tantamount to cheating/exploitation in the eyes of some.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
I feel like I almost get what's going on here but I must be missing something. I'll have to re-read it tomorrrow.
I just don't get why all examples are for as soon as he's played. Wouldn't it work regardless?
echoshifting
Banned
Correct, it only works if you do it as you are playing the Fiend Hunter. If the Fiend Hunter leaves the battlefield before the ETB trigger can resolve, its LTB trigger has no target. Then it pops back in, you choose a second creature with the new ETB trigger. Both of your targets are exiled...the first one permanently.
This can't work if the first ETB trigger fully resolves before you blink the Fiend Hunter, so it only works as the Fiend Hunter is first entering play.
Here is the thread that helped me wrap my head around this one.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
Ah, ok. And the angel works since it has flash.
All you need to know is how the stack works so last added to stack resolves first so:
step 1: Fiend hunter enters, enter the battlefield effect goes on the stack
step 2: Before the ability resolves you blink it so the LTB goes on the stack for fiend 1
step 3: Enter for fiend 2 goes on stack
step 4: If that's it then stack starts to resolve so second fiend enter effect goes off goes x creature
step 5: Next on the stack was the LTB for fiend 1 which had nothing exiled so it just does nothing
step 6: Finally initial exile entering effect of fiend one resolves exiling y creature, since the LTB was already done for fiend 1 it can't come back. You also can't ever also permanently exile the second by doing this, once fiend leaves for any reason, blinking or otherwise, it's released.
Hope that explains it clearly.
zerokoolpsx
Member
That explained it a lot.
It does actually. Y creature is permanently exiled while X creature is temporarily exiled. LTB on first fiend hunter does nothing.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
Nvm, I'm dumb.
echoshifting
Banned
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
Haha, I feel really dumb now.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Between this and Tamiyo I really think they want to revisit Kamigawa again. My guess is that we'll get Return to Ravnica - > Some new plane -> Kamigawa 2
That's cool. I wouldn't mind a block where I might spend only a little money and still be happy, and if a Kamigawa sequel is anything like the original, that'll be the case.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Yeah, a Return to Kamigawa block would be easy on my wallet too, as I likely wouldn't buy anything from it.
LOL. In what universe are you guys living in that you don't think WOTC wouldn't use what they've learned in the past 8 years to make a new Kamigawa block super badass? Lord knows the first Mirrodin block did more to harm Kamigawa than anything else forcing them to neuter so many cards and what not.
Keru_Shiri
Member
I'm actually pretty pumped that one of the new Planechase decks is Cascade focused. One of my favorite mechanics.
I wasn't playing back then, so I wasn't affected by its need to neuter Mirrodin quite as much. Kamigawa as a flavor didn't appeal to me at all. Nothing about it, story or mechanic, was engaging or exciting.
It stands to reason that they wouldn't spend an entire year in Kamigawa and not try to make the most of it (I can hope for a two-set expansion, no? lol), but I'm not sure they can hook me with the same flavor they couldn't before. I guess if the cards are uber-powerful I'll have no choice.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Settle down, killer. Nobody is insulting you, personally.
I just don't care for the flavor of demon ninjas and rat samurais. I wasn't playing during that time period, so I don't know anything about them neutering cards. I'm just not a fan of the flavor or the mechanics they introduced in the block.
*Scratches head* I ain't mad, just amused. Most of the complaints I've heard about Kamigawa was that it was "weak" or "too insular" but none of those would be problems under the current regime at WOTC. My fault for making assumptions. If you're not feeling the flavor that's an entirely different matter but that still doesn't stop a hypothetical new block from having great new cards/strategies (i.e. the stuff that matters most).
Plus how is a DEMON NINJA not awesome? Let your inner thirteen year old live a little
Plus how is a DEMON NINJA not awesome? Let your inner thirteen year old live a little
zerokoolpsx
Member
I had just stopped playing as that set came out. Don't really like the mechanics from that block either. It'll save me money in the long run.
A friend of mine is excited about return to Ravinca though. He loves dual color mana cost cards.
Jesus 95% of the decks on friday were human based. Time to bring out some anti human hate next time. Still went to top four undefeated with monogreen before losing to the dude I had just swept in the prior matchup. Ain't that how it always goes. I tried to argue that since I had beat everyone in the top four already and was the only one to beat the eventual winner that I should get all the prize packs... Nobody listened lol
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
*Scratches head* I ain't mad, just amused. Most of the complaints I've heard about Kamigawa was that it was "weak" or "too insular" but none of those would be problems under the current regime at WOTC. My fault for making assumptions. If you're not feeling the flavor that's an entirely different matter but that still doesn't stop a hypothetical new block from having great new cards/strategies (i.e. the stuff that matters most).
Plus how is a DEMON NINJA not awesome? Let your inner thirteen year old live a little
To you. Not me.
...and my inner 13 year old is only interested in boobies.
I stand proud with this man.
So is my 30 year old self.
I actually loved kamigawas flavor. Espiecally after reading the novels. But the cards did indeed suck for the most part. And I'm biased since it was the first set I came back to after 8 years away. Not because of the set mind you, it just happened to be during kamigawa block.
So you need 2 of the opponent's creatures to make the combo work?
You can still get a permanent exile off on one creature since Fiend Hunter's trigger is a "may".
Not necessarily. Fiend Hunter's first ability is a "may" ability so you could just choose not to exile a creature when the first "remove creature" ability resolves.
edit: beat
echoshifting
Banned
Picked up a few random packs at the grocery store and I'm glad I did. Got all kinds of good stuff...two Huntmasters, a Gravecrawler, Entreat the Angels, Moonsilver Spear and Killing Wave.
Have you guys seen these combo packs that pop up in spots like that claiming to contain 2 boosters and "8 bonus cards?" Don't waste your time with these...they retail for 8 bucks, so it's not exactly a ripoff, but half of those bonus cards are basic lands
Have you guys seen these combo packs that pop up in spots like that claiming to contain 2 boosters and "8 bonus cards?" Don't waste your time with these...they retail for 8 bucks, so it's not exactly a ripoff, but half of those bonus cards are basic lands
I dunno if Illusory Angel will actually be any good (probably not) but "only if you've cast another spell" >>>>>>>>>> "only if you've cast another green spell". That an 4/4 Flier > 4/3 Trample.
Since it's blue, it'll likely be piggybacking off of the likes of Think Twice and Ponder, that alone sends it over Talara's Battalion.
The problem is, of course, that there's no reason any blue deck running Think Twice and Ponder would want to tie up 3 mana just for a 4/4 flying when they probably have more important things to do with their mana. Perhaps U/W humans so it can frogleap over a late/midgame Doomed Traveler.
The problem is, of course, that there's no reason any blue deck running Think Twice and Ponder would want to tie up 3 mana just for a 4/4 flying when they probably have more important things to do with their mana. Perhaps U/W humans so it can frogleap over a late/midgame Doomed Traveler.
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