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[kirblar]

Amonkhet block wouldn't have been designed with the intention of being in Standard alongside BFZ block—could that potentially lead to awkwardness during those extra six month?

lol if we end up with fetch/dual manabases again....

 

[Angry Grimace]

lol if we end up with fetch/dual manabases again....

I think you have to ban the BFZ lands.

 

[bigkrev]

They should bring back the Modern Pro Tour for the small set before rotation slot. That Standard format is going to be lame duck and overplayed.

 

[Simply Sarah]

Oh boy. I can't wait to find out all the awesome Amonkhet cards we won't be getting because they had to nerf the set in a panic.

 

[Angry Grimace]

They can't "nerf' the set at this point.

Honestly, Kaladesh has a lot less mechanical complexity than most sets, so if they keep it at that level, it might be fine the way it is.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

It's more likely that they had planned to put enemy fetches in it, and now they can't.

 

[Firemind]

now if only they would reintroduce symmetrical draft block formats

baby steps

 

[kirblar]

It's more likely that they had planned to put enemy fetches in it, and now they can't.

The set is locked. They have massive lead times.

How are you and others under the impression that things can be changed 6 months out?

 

[Angry Grimace]

The set is locked. They have massive lead times.

How are you and others under the impression that things can be changed 6 months out?

It would probably be technically possible to pull the card from the set entirely if it was in - leaving BFZ block around means the existing dual land cycles are sticking around. They just wouldn't be able to replace it with anything else.

 

["God's Beard!"]

The set is locked. They have massive lead times.

How are you and others under the impression that things can be changed 6 months out?

Was Amonkhet design completed before they changed the rotation?

edit: wait I missed the news. wow.

 

[Angry Grimace]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";220692997]Was Amonkhet design completed before they changed the rotation?

edit: wait I missed the news. wow.[/QUOTE]

They wouldn't be announcing this right now if they knew about it a few months ago. They would have probably done things quite differently in terms of setting up Kaladesh's launch.

 

[An-Det]

Jeez, Standard must have been hurting super bad if they reversed that so soon. As someone that casually wants to play standard again, the shorter rotation time didn't help my indecision.

Since Modern has no Tier 1 hard control deck, I am thinking of getting into Legacy with Miracles. Good or bad idea?

And when will we see a Flusterstorm reprint?

Getting into Legacy is probably a bad idea in general at this point, but if you do Miracles is a solid choice to go for. Holy shit at that Flusterstmor price, though. What the fuck.

I'm as bummed as you are at no tier 1 control deck in Modern. I tried to stick with UWR control for longer than I should have (before nahiri combo gave it a brief resurgence), but it's not enough.

 

[Crocodile]

A) The most successful people at _________ are those who work the hardest, are exceptionally talented and get a least a little lucky seems like such a no brainier concept I'm surprised there is any debate about this?

B) I missed most of the PT but it seems Aetherworks Marvel and Torrential Gearhulk ran a train on the format (with a lot of vehicle/aggro decks doing well too)?

C) I'm glad I don't play T2 so I don't have to care about these rotations but I guess that means it will take longer for things to price drop so I can pick them up cheap? Boo

 

[divisionbyzorro]

The set is locked. They have massive lead times.

How are you and others under the impression that things can be changed 6 months out?

Because...

They wouldn't be announcing this right now if they knew about it a few months ago. They would have probably done things quite differently in terms of setting up Kaladesh's launch.

But it seems that this really was a very, very recent change.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Because...



I assumed they knew about this before literally right now. As in, before the set was locked and prepping for print.



But it seems that this really was a very, very recent change.

They get locked like 9 months out.

 

[aidan]

They wouldn't be announcing this right now if they knew about it a few months ago. They would have probably done things quite differently in terms of setting up Kaladesh's launch.

WotC just had its quarterly investors call. Could be a recent and very firm command from up-on-high.

 

[Simply Sarah]

The set is locked. They have massive lead times.

How are you and others under the impression that things can be changed 6 months out?

See, I assumed that as well but Aaron's tweet implies otherwise:

Bruce Richard ‏@manaburned 2h2 hours ago
@mtgaaron Is there concern about releasing Standard formats that were untested by R&D? Will Amonkhet and Zendikar Block play nicely?

Aaron Forsythe @mtgaaron
@manaburned Amonkhet isn't finished, and most of our recent effort has been smoothing that transition out.

 

[kirblar]

WotC just had its quarterly investors call. Could be a recent and very firm command from up-on-high.

Rosewater was asking for feedback on "are we putting out too many products" recently- this is obviously why.

See, I assumed that as well but Aaron's tweet implies otherwise:

Set 2 can probably be adjusted.

 

[charlequin]

Hopefully this doesn't mean Amonkhet is a BFZ style mess due to reacting to this change.

Yeah, Aaron's comment on this is pretty concerning to me.

As mentioned, this also creates an imbalance between the importance of the fall and spring sets. I think they'll figure out how to manage it, but I hope they do it quickly.

Yes it's also going to make the imbalance between card values for sets over the year get even bigger.

They can't "nerf' the set at this point.

They made this decision a couple months ago right before Amonkhet development was over, so unfortunately the risk that they just slash and burned it to accommodate seems pretty real.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

They made this decision a couple months ago right before Amonkhet development was over, so unfortunately the risk that they just slash and burned it to accommodate seems pretty real.

See, that was my assumption - they knew about this for a while, but wanted to wait for the lull after the fall set came out to talk about it.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Honestly doesn't seem like they thought it through the first time all that well.

I think most of us liked the "idea" of the 2-block system, but in practice it was pretty annoying having 180 day formats where entire decks became worthless overnight.

 

[charlequin]

lol I just realized that with this change they just recreated the old late-period-Extended format everyone hated

I gotta say I'm not really convinced that the "once a year" aspect is as necessary here as extending set lifespan from 18 to 24 months. That seems like the part with the biggest downsides and I'm not sure that "your exact deck will be playable without changes for longer" is really the ideal fix.

 

[Angry Grimace]

lol I just realized that with this change they just recreated the old late-period-Extended format everyone hated

I gotta say I'm not really convinced that the "once a year" aspect is as necessary here as extending set lifespan from 18 to 24 months. That seems like the part with the biggest downsides and I'm not sure that "your exact deck will be playable without changes for longer" is really the ideal fix.

It's both. If you rotate twice a year, you might end up with decks that rotate entirely because some key card was in the rotated set and the rest of the deck becomes worthless.

 

[SigmasonicX]

Magic Story - A Grateful Consulate
* Dovin Baan is annoyed that things aren't going as Tezzeret told him they would, especially the clumsy way in which the inventions are being confiscated. A Mana Vault is being confiscated, and even as he's yelling at the guards not to put it on a cart that can't bear its weight, they do. A guard with a sword holds it clumsily and accidentally cuts himself.
* Baan had contacted the Gatewatch without Tezzeret's knowledge, but he didn't think it would cause any issues. He wonders if he has fallen out of favor with him.
* A Bastion Mastadon is attacking, and the guards try to fight it with spears. Baan is pointing out its weak point, but the guards keep messing up. He tells a random elf in the crowd to do it, and she does, but the elephant's trunk falls on her.

* Baan goes to the Aether Spire, where Tezzeret is. Baan hadn't realized until now that Tezzeret's entire arm was metal, as opposed to just the hand.
* Tezzeret is indeed angry about the Gatewatch. Baan is surprised to hear that there were six planeswalkers instead of five (due to Ajani).
* Tezzeret says that the rough and hasty way they took inventions was because they had to safeguard them from the Renegades and there was little time. Besides, it was better to have them under Consulate control.
* Baan explains that contacting the Gatewatch was the best course of action with the information he was given, and it was only because of personal grudges he had no knowledge of that things went awry.
* Tezzeret will devote his time to studying and perfecting Rashimi's teleportation device. He assigns Baan to focus on everything else.

* Baan gets to work on defeating the Gatewatch, listing off the flaws he observed about them to an officer, and sending him off.
* Baan heads back to the square and tries to bring calm, having the guards be more gentle but also making some arrests. He personally interferes in some cases. He also has to help handle some gremlin outbreaks due to all the broken machines.
* He's confident that the Gatewatch will be captured soon enough, due to how flawed they are. When that happens, he'll finally be able to examine all the machines they confiscated.

We're almost certainly going to have some planar portal action in Aether Revolt. As for the rest of the story, while it made for some amusing moments, I don't think presenting the Consulate soldiers as this incompetent was the right move.

EDIT: Really surprised to hear that they're still working on Amonkhet, assuming he means the set and not the block. This turning out like BFZ is seeming more and more likely.

 

[kirblar]

Aaron Forsythe ‏@mtgaaron 4m4 minutes ago Renton, WA

Lots of people suggesting 2x rotation w/longer lifespan. Problem is the extra rotation was the biggest turnoff, not lifespan. #wotcstaff

Bah.

 

[Simply Sarah]

It's both. If you rotate twice a year, you might end up with decks that rotate entirely because some key card was in the rotated set and the rest of the deck becomes worthless.

Sure, but having a 5 set Standard (assuming they don't adjust this as well) simply grow over time to a 5+3 set Standard before dropping all the way back to a 5 set Standard seems even more disruptive. It would mean losing a full half of Standard all at once. I also really really don't think I like the huge 9 month difference in Standard lifetime for the first and last set in a Standard year. It means that only the fall and winter sets actually stick around any longer than they would have under the prior plan.

I wonder if this odd set up is because it slightly eases design compared to rotating twice a year. Under this plan any one set will be in Standard with 11 others (4 prior year, 3 its year, 4 next) whereas on a twice a year rotation it would be 13 (6 prior sets, 1 other set in block, 6 next sets).

Bah.

So he's saying people want a more stagnant Standard? Right after CoCo finally leaves? Really?

 

["God's Beard!"]

What was worse for Standard, CoCo or Thoughtseize -> Pack Rat?

 

[charlequin]

It's both. If you rotate twice a year, you might end up with decks that rotate entirely because some key card was in the rotated set and the rest of the deck becomes worthless.

I mean, yeah, this is a problem with rotation in general so it's a question of where you fall on the continuum. My point is more that there are two different issues here: how long your cards are good for and how often something about the legal cards changes. Their choice here suggests they think the latter is the core problem and the former not particularly important (since at least some sets will still rotate after about 18 months) and I'm not convinced that's right.

 

[kirblar]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";220703065]What was worse for Standard, CoCo or Thoughtseize -> Pack Rat?[/QUOTE]
Thoughtseize/Pack Rat by a mile.

 

[Ashodin]

I'm torn. I liked the faster rotation as the meta changed more often and we weren't going to get stuck with a "COCO IS THE BEST THING EVAR" scenario again; that being said, I like that Stone Haven Outfitter will be sticking around longer

However, I'm also concerned like you guys that Amonkhet was designed to work in an environment without BFZ/OGW and now it will be nerfed in power to compensate.

IE They could have had an amazing equipment-subtheme that would have been busted as all fuck with SHO.

 

[Xis]

Sure, but having a 5 set Standard (assuming they don't adjust this as well) simply grow over time to a 5+3 set Standard before dropping all the way back to a 5 set Standard seems even more disruptive. It would mean losing a full half of Standard all at once.

This is a reversion back to how it used to be.
RTR/GTC/DGM/M14/THS/BNG/JOU/M15 (eight sets)
Collapsed to
THS/BNG/JOU/M15/KTK (five sets)

Only difference is that the core sets have been replaced with a real expansion.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Sure, but having a 5 set Standard (assuming they don't adjust this as well) simply grow over time to a 5+3 set Standard before dropping all the way back to a 5 set Standard seems even more disruptive. It would mean losing a full half of Standard all at once. I also really really don't think I like the huge 9 month difference in Standard lifetime for the first and last set in a Standard year. It means that only the fall and winter sets actually stick around any longer than they would have under the prior plan.

I wonder if this odd set up is because it slightly eases design compared to rotating twice a year. Under this plan any one set will be in Standard with 11 others (4 prior year, 3 its year, 4 next) whereas on a twice a year rotation it would be 13 (6 prior sets, 1 other set in block, 6 next sets).



So he's saying people want a more stagnant Standard? Right after CoCo finally leaves? Really?

That's exactly how it worked before this.

This is a reversion back to how it used to be.
RTR/GTC/DGM/M14/THS/BNG/JOU/M15 (eight sets)
Collapsed to
THS/BNG/JOU/M15/KTK (five sets)

Only difference is that the core sets have been replaced with a real expansion.

They've ended up putting themselves in a pickle in that the part that enabled the 2-block system is gone, but people aren't going to want to revert to 3-set blocks.

 

[Xis]

They've ended up putting themselves in a pickle in that the part that enabled the 2-block system is gone, but people aren't going to want to revert to 3-set blocks.

Aaron's article hinted that two blocks per year may not be guaranteed anymore. I suspect we will see some 4-set blocks coming up (big/small/big/small, like Lorwyn / Shadowmoor). Imagine if we had a small set followup to Rise of the Eldrazi, or Dragons of Tarkir.

"The solution we have come to is a simple one—we're going to return to a once-yearly rotation cycle, where Standard rotates a year's worth of sets (in this case, two blocks) with the second large set of the year"

 

[Infinite Stars]

Wow at that Rotation. I'm worried for Amonkhet now, because dear lord I want it to be awesome, but the fact that they're still touching the set 6 months before it releases makes me fear for it. I mean, BFZ being a clusterfuck was one thing because everyone already had feelings on Zendikar, but Amonkhet might end up miserable because of this.

As for Standard Numbers being down, this is totally ancedotal evidence, but at the 2 LGS I go to(Yellowjacket in Victoria and one further up-island when I'm visiting my family) Both of them have had drastically reduced Standard FNMs from Magic Origins Standard. Yellowjacket was firing 5 round Standard FNMs in Summer 2015 to 4 Rounds right after Shadows came out to removing Standard from FNM and replacing it with Modern recently.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Aaron's article hinted that two blocks per year may not be guaranteed anymore. I suspect we will see some 4-set blocks coming up (big/small/big/small, like Lorwyn / Shadowmoor). Imagine if we had a small set followup to Rise of the Eldrazi, or Dragons of Tarkir.

"The solution we have come to is a simple one—we're going to return to a once-yearly rotation cycle, where Standard rotates a year's worth of sets (in this case, two blocks) with the second large set of the year"

I saw that and came to the same conclusion you did, but I don't know if they're likely to mess with whatever system they come up with from year to year.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Ahahahahahahahahahaha and I made fun of Hearthstone since they operated their rotation like that and I thought that was so weird.

 

[Firemind]

They've ended up putting themselves in a pickle in that the part that enabled the 2-block system is gone, but people aren't going to want to revert to 3-set blocks.

Who's 'people'?

That they fucked up Return to Ravnica's and Theros' third set is Development's fault.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Who's 'people'?

That they fucked up Return to Ravnica's and Theros' third set is Development's fault.

I certainly can't definitively speak for anyone else, but most people that I know liked the idea of more blocks in standard, but didn't like the idea of rotation happening so often (since cards constantly rotate).

And Theros' second set was the one that sucked, not the third one!

 

[Hero]

Wow they're going back on the decision already? Not sure how I feel about it.

 

[Infinite Stars]

Who's 'people'?

That they fucked up Return to Ravnica's and Theros' third set is Development's fault.

They fucked up Dragon's Maze, but Journey to Nyx beats Born of the Gods any day(Minus Born's god cards)

 

["God's Beard!"]

Man, I'm so mad there's no real 1-mana discard in Standard. It's so good with fastlands, too.

 

[Xis]

Ahahahahahahahahahaha and I made fun of Hearthstone since they operated their rotation like that and I thought that was so weird.

Hearthstone's rotation is damn weird though because of the huge, nonrotating, core set. Imagine Magic if they declared two decades ago that Fifth edition would be standard legal forever, and then just released two small expansions (and I guess a gift set of 36 new cards) per year.

 

[Angry Grimace]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";220703065]What was worse for Standard, CoCo or Thoughtseize -> Pack Rat?[/QUOTE]

This is one of things where I have trouble answering because I very much enjoyed RTR-THS standard. There's also the fact that you had tools to address Pack Rat with Supreme Verdict, Anger of the Gods (sometimes), Bile Blight, etc.

Mono-Black Devotion was the most popular deck, but people overdramatize how good it was - there were several other competitive decks in the format and Thoughtseize wasn't nearly as problematic for Standard as Collected Company was. Particularly given that the entire time Thoughtseize was legal cheap mono-red aggro was a legitimate deck.

People way over-dramatize how good Thoughtseize was, even in Standard. It was a great card to play, but the life penalty was a real cost and it's not always the best topdeck.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";220708441]Man, I'm so mad there's no real 1-mana discard in Standard. It's so good with fastlands, too.[/QUOTE]

Harsh Scrutiny is better than it looks in this format, but yeah, they let Duress rotate every once in a while for whatever reason.

 

["God's Beard!"]

This is one of things where I have trouble answering because I very much enjoyed RTR-THS standard.

It's my favorite standard format so far.

 

[Ashodin]

Wow at that Rotation. I'm worried for Amonkhet now, because dear lord I want it to be awesome, but the fact that they're still touching the set 6 months before it releases makes me fear for it. I mean, BFZ being a clusterfuck was one thing because everyone already had feelings on Zendikar, but Amonkhet might end up miserable because of this.

As for Standard Numbers being down, this is totally ancedotal evidence, but at the 2 LGS I go to(Yellowjacket in Victoria and one further up-island when I'm visiting my family) Both of them have had drastically reduced Standard FNMs from Magic Origins Standard. Yellowjacket was firing 5 round Standard FNMs in Summer 2015 to 4 Rounds right after Shadows came out to removing Standard from FNM and replacing it with Modern recently.

oh shit, you go to LRR's LGS? nice!

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";220708441]Man, I'm so mad there's no real 1-mana discard in Standard. It's so good with fastlands, too.[/QUOTE]

Harsh Scrutiny?

 

[Firemind]

I certainly can't definitively speak for anyone else, but most people that I know liked the idea of more blocks in standard, but didn't like the idea of rotation happening so often (since cards constantly rotate).

And Theros' second set was the one that sucked, not the third one!

And yet Khans of Tarkir is considered a success.

 

[Simply Sarah]

This is a reversion back to how it used to be.
RTR/GTC/DGM/M14/THS/BNG/JOU/M15 (eight sets)
Collapsed to
THS/BNG/JOU/M15/KTK (five sets)

Only difference is that the core sets have been replaced with a real expansion.

Yes, I know. And then why went and changed everything because thought this would be better and now we're going back to the old, awkward setup that they wanted to get away from. Also, that was somewhat required because of the block structure and the core sets whereas we're now at 2 set blocks and no core sets. I really feel that either they or the people that have complained to them is confusing 18 month maximum set lifetime in Standard with "My cards rotate out too often!" read as "Rotation should happen less often!" instead of "My cards should be in Standard longer!"

 

["God's Beard!"]

And yet Khans of Tarkir is considered a success.

KTK is so good the first set makes everything else not matter.

 

[charlequin]

So he's saying people want a more stagnant Standard? Right after CoCo finally leaves? Really?

The problem (and this has always been the ongoing tension here) is that people who play really competitive Standard, or who enjoy pro play as a spectator sport, want formats to change pretty often so they're interesting to solve and fun to play and have unexpected things happening when you watch.

Most people who play Standard (i.e. FNM regulars) actually want to find out what the single best deck in the format is on day two, buy the pieces for it, and then play it for a year without changing a single card, both so they can control the expense and so they can get better at playing that specific deck.

As someone who watches every Pro Tour but plays exclusively Commander and draft, I'm certainly in the first category, but that ain't (as they say) what pays the bills.

 

[Simply Sarah]

Hearthstone's rotation is damn weird though because of the huge, nonrotating, core set. Imagine Magic if they declared two decades ago that Fifth edition would be standard legal forever, and then just released two small expansions (and I guess a gift set of 36 new cards) per year.

If we got stuck on Fifth Edition for any extended period of time the game would have died long long ago.