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[Funky Papa]

I'm in awe at the resounding success of conservative parties hijacking the idea of what is to be a "centrist", when the reality is that their positions are getting increasingly rightist and the mainstream parties on the left are going through some serious identity crisis after realising that they pushed themselves into the same place where old school conservatives used to be, barring a few points like social issues.

We are slowly reaching Fox News levels of delusion.

 

[ruxtpin]

If only the conservative party in the states would have their meltdown... I can dream.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Hollande is a centre-left politician, a social-democrat like Chirac, Mitterrand, and the 2007-era Sarkozy. Mélenchon, however, isn't.

Hollande is a centre-left President via circumstance, his electoral platform of punitive taxation, rolling back pension reforms, union reforms and industrial reforms was not centrist, it was pretty left wing.

 

[ComputerMKII]

Hollande is a centre-left President via circumstance, his electoral platform of punitive taxation, rolling back pension reforms, union reforms and industrial reforms was not centrist, it was pretty left wing.

True enough.

 

[Mael]

Because I love vidberg

I'm in awe at the resounding success of conservative parties hijacking the idea of what is to be a "centrist", when the reality is that their positions are getting increasingly rightist and the mainstream parties on the left are going through some serious identity crisis after realising that they pushed themselves into the same place where old school conservatives used to be, barring a few points like social issues.

We are slowly reaching Fox News levels of delusion.

Are you seriously suggesting that a candidate that propose same sex mariage is anything but on the left?
If anything the right have lost the ideological battle since no one gives a shit about free entreprise in this country.

 

[Funky Papa]

Because I love vidberg

Are you seriously suggesting that a candidate that propose same sex mariage is anything but on the left?
If anything the right have lost the ideological battle since no one gives a shit about free entreprise in this country.

Either I explained myself poorly or you misunderstood my post.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Not French, but I took French every year from middle school through the end of high school (My school district used, and still uses, a 7th-9th grade model for middle school, so that's 6 years of French), so naturally we delved into French politics (gasp, foreign politics in the USA ).

I don't like this. I can't help but feel that the implosion of the UMP will empower the FN in the current global political climate, and the last thing the west needs is more far right policies.

The FN and Marine Le Pen do have some good things going for them over the UMP (they are far more supportive of public utilities, the postal service, and social security than the UMP), and Marine Le Pen in particular is more moderate on immigration than the FN has traditionally been, but they're pretty insane.

I mean, they support protectionism and oppose the euro, yet they want to reintroduce the Havana Charter and establish the bancor. I don't think I need to point out the problems of having unified currencies without unified governance, as we see these things implode time and time throughout history (and are seeing it right now with the euro-zone)

Repealing Pompdou-Giscard will just enrich the international for-profit financial institutions at the expense of french society at large.

And I don't think she has any clue about energy policy, since she's a hydrogen fuel advocate. Hydrogen fuel is not a direct energy source, but a byproduct of burning fossil fuels, or from wind, nuclear, solar, and geothermal reactions.

Then again, as an American, I'd gladly trade in the GOP for the FN.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

If anything the right have lost the ideological battle since no one gives a shit about free entreprise in this country.

It's because the French people that do give a shit about free enterprise are in London or Frankfurt!

 

[ComputerMKII]

Then again, as an American, I'd gladly trade in the GOP for the FN.

The FN are somewhat anti-American (especially diplomatic and military-wise).

 

[zomgbbqftw]

The FN are somewhat anti-American (especially diplomatic and military-wise).

Aren't they just anti-everyone?

 

[Mael]

Either I explained myself poorly or you misunderstood my post.

Well what I can say is the left here never got more to the right because of the right getting more extreme.
What happens here is :
right tries to be more extreme
left mock them and demonize them
right lose election worse than the previous one

that's what happened for the last 10 years (presidential elections excepted).

It's because the French people that do give a shit about free enterprise are in London or Frankfurt!

I was wondering was everything was so gloomy here...
If people prefer to live in the "perfidie d'Albion" things are getting pretty bad...
Seriously though it's atrociously hard to try to get this off the ground here.

The FN are somewhat anti-American (especially diplomatic and military-wise).

Fun part is that they loved Rand Paul (or was that Ron?)

 

[Funky Papa]

Well what I can say is the left here never got more to the right because of the right getting more extreme.
What happens here is :
right tries to be more extreme
left mock them and demonize them
right lose election worse than the previous one

that's what happened for the last 10 years (presidential elections excepted).

In all fairness my comment was aimed towards zomgbbqftw's and his weird perception of what is being a centrist, particularly considering what is going on in much of the Western world (not just France).

 

[GaimeGuy]

The FN are somewhat anti-American (especially diplomatic and military-wise).

I'm simply saying I'd rather the FN be the conservative party in America than the GOP. I'm not talking about international relations between the US and France with the FN in power in France.

 

[Sickboy007]

By what metric is Hollande a centrist candidate?

 

[zomgbbqftw]

By what metric is Hollande a centrist candidate?

He wasn't. Leftists like to believe that leftists policies are actually centrist and try and tell the world that anything that isn't left wing is "extreme right".

 

[ComputerMKII]

I'm simply saying I'd rather the FN be the conservative party in America than the GOP. I'm not talking about international relations between the US and France with the FN in power in France.

Marine Le Pen recently justified her pro-death penalty stance saying that Obama was in favour of it, too, and he'd be on the far-right by French standards.

 

[Mael]

I'm simply saying I'd rather the FN be the conservative party in America than the GOP. I'm not talking about international relations between the US and France with the FN in power in France.

Yeah, no.
I don't remember GOP members having much love for gas chambers and all that.
And I know godwin and all that but considering the subject...

In all fairness my comment was aimed towards zomgbbqftw's and his weird perception of what is being a centrist, particularly considering what is going on in much of the Western world (not just France).

France just like to do things differently most of the time ;p

Marine Le Pen recently justified her pro-death penalty stance saying that Obama was in favour of it, too, and he'd be on the far-right by French standards.

Yeah...no again.
Obama would probably on the left side of Copé.
And she'd say anything to justify her position, she's not to be taken seriously.

 

[Enosh]

excellent, the shitty "right" wing parties like this, whose only purpose is to enrich their banking and corporate overlords need to die the painful death they deserve for a party that actually gives a shit about the citizens to be able to take their place

 

[Kurtofan]

Fun part is that they loved Rand Paul (or was that Ron?)

Le Pen tried to meet several Republican leaders before the elections but only could meet Ron Paul and he didn't even want to be seen on camera with her, it was utterly pathetic.

Marine Le Pen recently justified her pro-death penalty stance saying that Obama was in favour of it, too, and he'd be on the far-right by French standards.

LOLOLOLOLOL what a snake.

 

[ComputerMKII]

Yeah, no.
I don't remember GOP members having much love for gas chambers and all that.
And I know godwin and all that but considering the subject...

For the love of God let's not discuss this and derail the thread.

Le Pen tried to meet several Republican leaders before the elections but only could meet Ron Paul and he didn't even want to be seen on camera with her, it was utterly pathetic.

I have no idea why they would even meet. The National Front is as strong-government as a party can be.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

I'm simply saying I'd rather the FN be the conservative party in America than the GOP. I'm not talking about international relations between the US and France with the FN in power in France.

No you wouldn't.

 

[Sickboy007]

He wasn't. Leftists like to believe that leftists policies are actually centrist and try and tell the world that anything that isn't left wing is "extreme right".

Lots of weaksauce "leftist" candidates around the world, but Hollande certainly didn't sound like one. And I agree with Funky Papa's point about the mainstream conservative parties veering to the right.

 

[Mael]

For the love of God let's not discuss this and derail the thread.

Believe me I didn't want to touch this with a ten feet pole but yeah I'd take the GOP any day thank you very much.

I have no idea why they would even meet. The National Front is as strong-government as a party can be.

She wanted to do a big international tour and start with the US, no one (and I mean NO ONE) took her seriously.

Le Pen tried to meet several Republican leaders before the elections but only could meet Ron Paul and he didn't even want to be seen on camera with her, it was utterly pathetic.

That was way too funny to be true, I thought I couldn't breath since I was laughing so much.

 

[Kurtofan]

I have no idea why they would even meet. The National Front is as strong-government as a party can be.

To build international credibility, Hollande did the same by meeting Zapatero , Lula and Miliband.

 

[keuja]

Ah yes French politics...
I wonder if there's even one other country in this world with such utterly uninspiring characters.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Ah yes French politics...
I wonder if there's even one other country in this world with such utterly uninspiring characters.

Britain.

 

[Mael]

Ah yes French politics...
I wonder if there's even one other country in this world with such utterly uninspiring characters.

Look up Japanese politics, you'll think this here is a circus with clowns juggling explosive (or the other way round).

 

[Sickboy007]

Look up Japanese politics, you'll think this here is a circus with clowns juggling explosive (or the other way round).

Explosives juggling clowns?

 

[Kurtofan]

Explosive juggling clowns is an apt metaphor for the UMP right now.

 

[Mael]

Explosives juggling clowns?

Isn't that exciting!?!
That's how boring Japanese politics is compared to French politics.

Explosive juggling clowns is an apt metaphor for the UMP right now.

I wouldn't know, clowns are usually competent...

 

[ComputerMKII]

Explosive juggling clowns is an apt metaphor for the UMP right now.

So they're finally competing in the same league as the Socialist Party.

Edit: Mickaël Vendetta announced he no longer supported the UMP. Now they're really doomed :lol

 

[okdakor]

Marine Le Pen in particular is more moderate on immigration than the FN has traditionally been

That's part of her act to seem moderate, she's a piece of shit, like her father

 

[Mael]

So they're finally competing in the same league as the Socialist Party.

again, clowns are competent people the more I follow politics the more I'm sure these people are utter morons who get there because everyone else is busy getting a real job (or trying to).

Edit: Mickaël Vendetta announced he no longer supported the UMP. Now they're really doomed :lol

Now to know if he really leaves the country so that the IQ avg level increase by 10 points...

That's part of her act to seem moderate, she's a piece of shit, like her father

The one difference between the one eyed racist and her is that one of them has hair and is cleaner on TV.
Seriously when journalists go over the fact that the blonde is leading this party she usually fare even poorer than her shitty father.

 

[Kurtofan]

How is she moderate on immigration?

She went on Lampedusa Island during the Arab Spring to show the "dangers of immigration", in one of her speeches she said things "How many Mohammed Merah (terrorist who shot French soldiers and Jewish people) are coming in boats and planes" (Mohammed Merah was born here, he wasn't an immigrant) etc...

 

[Mael]

How is she moderate on immigration?

She went on Lampedusa Island during the Arab Spring to show the "dangers of immigration", in one of her speech she said things "How many Mohammed Merah (terrorist who shot French soldiers and Jewish people) are coming in boats and planes" etc...

No one is saying she is.
What is said however that it was part of a (rather poor at that) act to make it seems like she's one.


e : Even PS is sorry about the poor state of the UMP

Copé, "il a dégringolé presque autant que DSK !"

Le PS, qui pendant la campagne primaire souhaitait presque sans exception une victoire de Jean-François Copé, jugé plus caricatural et donc plus facile à contrer que François Fillon, le voit aujourd'hui comme le grand perdant de l'affaire et ne s'en réjouit pas. Il a perdu, selon un sondage BVA pour i>Télé la semaine dernière, 22 points d'opinions favorables, ce qui fait dire à un élu PS : "Il a dégringolé presque autant que DSK après l'affaire du Sofitel !"* Sa décrédibilisation est avant tout une victoire pour Marine Le Pen, craignent les socialistes. "Il y a un mort dans cette affaire, Jean-François Copé, et une principale gagnante : Marine Le Pen", dit-on.

La députée des Hautes-Alpes Karine Berger explique : "J'ai toujours pensé que le seul capable de faire contrebalance à la montée du FN, c'était Jean-François Copé. Maintenant qu'il n'y a plus de leader, cela rend la tâche de Marine Le Pen extrêmement facile." Ce dont le PS ne peut se réjouir.

Copé is following DSK's footstep as being a joke in the political field.
And the PS claim that it doesn't help them in their 'fight' against the FN.

 

[ComputerMKII]

The UMP's internal appeals commission has just proclaimed Copé winner of the election. WHO WOULD HAVE GUESSED

 

[zomgbbqftw]

The UMP's internal appeals commission has just proclaimed Copé as winner of the election. WHO WOULD HAVE GUESSED

So are the UMP really going to put an FN-lite candidate forwards for president in a few years? Seems like a very poor idea to me.

 

[Mael]

So are the UMP really going to put an FN-lite candidate forwards for president in a few years? Seems like a very poor idea to me.

Nah they can do as the PS did in 2007 and choose someone else.
It's true that it's a huge advantage, but Copé is seen as beyond as a joke now he's in a worse position than Sarkozy in 1997 and that's pretty telling.

The UMP's internal appeals commission has just proclaimed Copé as winner of the election. WHO WOULD HAVE GUESSED

 

[Kurtofan]

Nah they can do as the PS did in 2007 and choose someone else.

Would Copé even agree to do open primaries?He's going to lose them, he's massively unpopular.

 

[Maiar_m]

Would Copé even agree to do open primaries?He's going to lose them, he's massively unpopular.

He could do membership-only primaries, and pull the same stunt he's pulled for this "election".

 

[ComputerMKII]

So are the UMP really going to put an FN-lite candidate forwards for president in a few years? Seems like a very poor idea to me.

The president of the party won't necessarily be the presidential candidate in 2017. If I remember correctly, they're going to have a primary election (for the first time), like the Socialist Party did in 2011.

It's true that it's a huge advantage, but Copé is seen as beyond as a joke now he's in a worse position than Sarkozy in 1997 and that's pretty telling.

Also this. Sarkozy literally 'killed' all his right-wing opponents the UMP was like a very united, personal army for him. There's no more unity whatsoever.

 

[Mael]

The president of the party won't necessarily be the presidential candidate in 2017. If I remember correctly, they're going to have a primary election (for the first time), like the Socialist Party did in 2011.

Now it can be be like in 2007 where there's only 1 candidate...

Also this. Sarkozy literally 'killed' all his right-wing opponents the UMP was like a very united, personal army for him. There's no more unity whatsoever.

Let's not act like the UMP wasn't a political machine to allow Chirac to win the 2001 election.
Seriously if there's one reason I hate this thing, it's probably that.
There's no platform, no idea.
Only "Chirac have to win in 2001".
As it is it fullfilled it's usefulness a long time ago.

Would Copé even agree to do open primaries?He's going to lose them, he's massively unpopular.

Good point, thing is he's probably even more unpopular in the party.
Heck something like 8 out of 10 deputes want nothing to do with him and would prefer to form a new party...

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

National Front Rising.

 

[Pacbois]

Unless Copé agrees to a new election, UMP is fucked.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

I know it won't happen, but would it be awkward to have a President Le Pen negotiating with President Obama?

 

[Alx]

a weakened UMP (right) in the current economic climate will end up strengthening the FN (far-right)

I can't help but feel that the implosion of the UMP will empower the FN in the current global political climate, and the last thing the west needs is more far right policies.

National Front Rising.

I'd rather have the FN strengthened and the UMP split than keeping the current situation, in full mode "I'm not racist but..." as far as the right is concerned. And I obviously have no sympathy for the FN program, but at least things would be clear enough.
The only thing I agree with the FN is that they're too often used as a scarecrow. "Waaah, we can't do that, it will strengthen the FN !". Well that's democracy, I think their ideas are wrong/terrible/intolerant/..., but I'd rather see more people joining them and forming a tougher opponent, than seeing those ideas spread in other parties "because we need those voices".

 

[ComputerMKII]

Unless Copé agrees to a new election

He already said no to that. Anything that could put his seat in danger (a mediation with Alain Jupé, counting the overseas votes, having another election, etc.) is out of the question since he has everything to lose.

 

[ComputerMKII]

I know it won't happen, but would it be awkward to have a President Le Pen negotiating with President Obama?

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

Imagine if that becomes the metaphor for Franco-American relations!

 

[Oemenia]

You're quite right but it's a real issue when the value of your party and its worth at a potential election is dependent on the ideas and image of one man.

What this farce really shows is how stupid the whole party system has become in France and elsewhere). Parties are not there to promote ideas and politics anymore, they just exist to seize power through the most aptly marketed man / woman. It's pretty sickening and quite frankly, I wouldn't bother calling any of it a 'democratic process' anymore. Let's just be honest and call it a real-TV show so we can all vote without feeling like crap.

He's won't win if he doesn't change, though. The French presidential election can only be won at the centre, not the fringes.

Then again Sarkozy is not hugely different to Cope and he won with a landslide. Its sad but he is in with a chance especially given he can woo the far-right as well as centre-rights since there seems to be a common enemy.