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[potatohead]

idk man... this might be an unpopular opinion but I'm not really sure how much performance matters. Now of course I think that for some games (Uncharted, The Last of Us) performance matters greatly but how do you determine something like that excluding the obvious. I mean how much should the VOs of MGS5 get paid? I personally thought the gameplay was much more important than the VOs performances. Now they did well for sure but nothing compared to a naughty dog game... Point is how do you decide how much to pay someone? It's not as obvious as movies where a bad actor can completely ruin movie. idk, I feel bad cause I think VOs are definitely important

How do you attract this talent to your industry if you only employ such talent infrequently and only for high profile games?

If there are so few opportunities for paid work among voice talent in games, because now we consider that so many of these contributors don't matter, why should we expect anyone at all to even attempt to make a career here?

Food for thought.

 

[ROUGE_BLOCK]

Shouldn't bonuses be more allocated to the Developers, the people who actually make the game? I get wanting safer worker conditions, but don't many of these voice actors get work on animated series, television shows among other projects?

This is just a really weird strike situation.

The fines though like fining an actor $2500 for being inattentive is really stupid though.

 

[mdubs]

A lot of these voice actors are cool people from interviews and twitter and they do a good job (Erin Fitzgerald in particular seems delightful from her podcast with Greg Miller) I hope they get fair pay

 

[Minions]

Shouldn't bonuses be more allocated to the Developers, the people who actually make the game? I get wanting safer worker conditions, but don't many of these voice actors get work on animated series, television shows among other projects?

This is just a really weird strike situation.

The fines though like fining an actor $2500 for being inattentive is really stupid though.

Its a little different for devs.... who are constantly employed (get a paycheck every month). VA's are employed for projects and then have no income in between gigs. I believe they are also contractors... so get taxed off the bat at 30% tax bracket. (Though you can deduct expenses)

 

[Spyder_Monkey]

That doesn't include money from home sales, rentals, Netflix, VOD or broadcast. And the games revenue covers all aspects of gaming. I'd love to see how gaming stacks up against film and TV when all their sources of revenue are accounted for. I still reckon gaming would give a good show, but probably be beaten.

So it not counting blu ray and dvd sales ,streaming , renting or tv deals .
It really don't make sense to compare stuff like that IMO.

Valid comparison.

How much does a movie ticket cost vs an average video game?does your number include DVD sales, TV licensing deals?

Here's what I can find: Revenue for buying and renting movies in 2014 $17.18 billion with most of those being streaming services. While DVD and Blu-Ray sales were $6.93 billion and rentals being less than $2 billion. So still not enough to close the gap. Video games make more money than movies.

Source: http://deadline.com/2015/01/home-entertainment-spending-fell-2014-deg-1201342148/

 

[Steel]

Here's what I can find: Revenue for buying and renting movies in 2014 $17.18 billion with most of those being streaming services. While DVD and Blu-Ray sales were $6.93 billion and rentals being less than $2 billion. So still not enough to close the gap. Video games make more money than movies.

Source: http://deadline.com/2015/01/home-entertainment-spending-fell-2014-deg-1201342148/

What percentage of those games are cell phone games with little or no voice acting.

 

[ROUGE_BLOCK]

Its a little different for devs.... who are constantly employed (get a paycheck every month). VA's are employed for projects and then have no income in between gigs. I believe they are also contractors... so get taxed off the bat at 30% tax bracket. (Though you can deduct expenses)

That is a good point, I did not consider that as that could really cut into a lot of smaller voice actor's salaries.

 

[Illucio]

How do you attract this talent to your industry if you only employ such talent infrequently and only for high profile games?

If there are so few opportunities for paid work among voice talent in games, because now we consider that so many of these contributors don't matter, why should we expect anyone at all to even attempt to make a career here?

Food for thought.

Mostly because voice actors have opportunities in commercials, movies (even live action, a lot of scenes for even small roles have voice overs from different voice actors), TV shows, Cartoons, and Gaming. Let alone almost all voice actors went into the industry to be actors, not just voice actors.

Their work isn't solely tied to one field but to many, video games are just another opportunity, and a highly desirable one at that.

Work can also be outsourced where the work is even more desirable, Canada doesn't even allow United States citizens act for materials made in Canada because the amount of work is so little there.

Food for thought.

 

[cartman414]

Its a little different for devs.... who are constantly employed (get a paycheck every month). VA's are employed for projects and then have no income in between gigs. I believe they are also contractors... so get taxed off the bat at 30% tax bracket. (Though you can deduct expenses)

Not true for all devs. Some of them are also hired on contract. (Not to say anything of the layoffs that often happen.)

 

[Spyder_Monkey]

What percentage of those games are cell phone games with little or no voice acting.

http://www.newzoo.com/infographics/global-games-market-report-infographics/

I mean it doesn't excuse the fact that AAA games still rake in the dough and voice actors should be paid more though.

 

[myca77]

The fines though like fining an actor $2500 for being inattentive is really stupid though.

That stipulation the pubs are trying to push is crazy, in a long four hour session whilst kicking out pages of dialog even the best on their best day is going to have a wobble, or a moment where they need to zone out. You'd think the people who are trying to mandate this had never worked with actors before.

As for the auditions part

Our employers propose to fine your agent $50,000-100,000 if they don't send you out on certain auditions (like Atmospheric Voices or One Hour One Voice sessions). And if your agent chooses not to submit you for certain auditions, the employers want it put into contract language that SAG-AFTRA will revoke the agent’s union franchise. This would mean your agency would not be able to send you or anyone else they represent out on any union jobs, including those in animation, TV/Film, Commercials, etc.

That is absolutely crazy too, no one is ever entitled to an audition from an actor. If an actor is interested and available they'll attend an audition as long as it isn't too far out of the way. Well some would travel to the other side of the world if they really want the role.

Some actors won't audition, I doubt Samuel L. Jackson would audition for a bit (or even main) role in a video game, hell he's Samuel L. Jackson, you want him you better write out that check, you want him promoting it too, add another zero on there

Lesser known jobbing actors will audition any chance they get if it means more chance at work.

I don't see how they can even ask that of the actors and agents.

 

[dead souls]

On the one hand I completely support everything they are asking for and wish them nothing but the best, on the other hand I miss the days when games were all text with no VO at all.

 

[MegamanPoweredUP]

The only voice acting I need is fighting game's japanese gibberish.

 

[myca77]

Here's what I can find: Revenue for buying and renting movies in 2014 $17.18 billion with most of those being streaming services. While DVD and Blu-Ray sales were $6.93 billion and rentals being less than $2 billion. So still not enough to close the gap. Video games make more money than movies.

Source: http://deadline.com/2015/01/home-entertainment-spending-fell-2014-deg-1201342148/

Pretty good for them there little games, but I don't think it fits with the argument I was trying to make so I demand a recount with TV, Music, Radio, theatre, books and comics included with the films.

Spoiler

Not really

 

[jonno394]

@KenLally
Game industry makes 3 TIMES as much annual $ as the Hollywood film industry. Actors don't #PerformanceMatters

Something about this rubs me up the wrong way. In the film industry, the actor/actress are pretty much one of the major elements of a film, whereas with gaming, it's the gameplay and the devs. The two mediums just aren't comparable like this va is trying to do.

If the games industry makes 3 times as much money then it's the people doing the real work to get a game running who deserve the money (yet it's the publishers who likely do)

 

[myca77]

It's a very interesting issue. The contract being negotiated was initially drafted in 1990, and hasn't seen major revision since then. The union is clearly under the impression that they're being under-compensated for their work, as gaming as extended into a major industry. A strike is entirely possible, and the ripple effects could bleed into the consumer perspective. The votes won't be tallied until October 5th, so there's some time before we know the outcome of this campaign.

I thought the contracts had been changed more recently.

Kotaku link from 09 of contract changes that I kind of remember happening

Of course judging by that article whatever terms there were could have been changed or dropped by now.

 

[ROUGE_BLOCK]

That stipulation the pubs are trying to push is crazy, in a long four hour session whilst kicking out pages of dialog even the best on their best day is going to have a wobble, or a moment where they need to zone out. You'd think the people who are trying to mandate this had never worked with actors before.

As for the auditions part



That is absolutely crazy too, no one is ever entitled to an audition from an actor. If an actor is interested and available they'll attend an audition as long as it isn't too far out of the way. Well some would travel to the other side of the world if they really want the role.

Some actors won't audition, I doubt Samuel L. Jackson would audition for a bit (or even main) role in a video game, hell he's Samuel L. Jackson, you want him you better write out that check, you want him promoting it too, add another zero on there

Lesser known jobbing actors will audition any chance they get if it means more chance at work.

I don't see how they can even ask that of the actors and agents.

Yeah I don't understand this, who the fuck thought this was a comparable idea. If an actor doesn't show up for an audition they get an enormous fine and the Agent would lose their license and job? I don't have enough eyes in my head to roll at the stupidity of that one.

 

[myca77]

Something about this rubs me up the wrong way. In the film industry, the actor/actress are pretty much one of the major elements of a film, whereas with gaming, it's the gameplay and the devs. The two mediums just aren't comparable like this va is trying to do.

If the games industry makes 3 times as much money then it's the people doing the real work to get a game running who deserve the money (yet it's the publishers who likely do)

I don't see why it should rub you up the wrong way, if you were an actor and you saw your colleagues doing TV and film work getting paid a lot more to do basically the same job you might get a bit disheartened. Realise the games industry brings in more money it's no surprise they want a bit more to fall in line with the other mediums.

I kind of agree on the second point though. Most devs don't get paid enough, I've heard a lot of programmers state that if they left the games industry and went into other forms of software they would have a higher salary and work less. I'm not 100% sure how true this is, but it wouldn't surprise me at all.

 

[Lulu23]

When I read the title I thought this was about performance in the sense of a stable framerate etc., which I would have supported a lot more.

 

[Illucio]

Something about this rubs me up the wrong way. In the film industry, the actor/actress are pretty much one of the major elements of a film, whereas with gaming, it's the gameplay and the devs. The two mediums just aren't comparable like this va is trying to do.

If the games industry makes 3 times as much money then it's the people doing the real work to get a game running who deserve the money (yet it's the publishers who likely do)

Well even if you exclude all revenue with games without voice acting, of the world's total revenue, let alone exclude every other region with different languages for said voice acting/different unions.

How many games with voice acting are made, and how many actually are released in other countries, and with English voice acting? (Mostly Japan.)

The revenue their articulating at isn't right.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

All I really see this doing is encouraging publishers to hire more non-union VAs.

 

[jonno394]

I don't see why it should rub you up the wrong way, if you were an actor and you saw your colleagues doing TV and film work getting paid a lot more to do basically the same job you might get a bit disheartened. Realise the games industry brings in more money it's no surprise they want a bit more to fall in line with the other mediums.

I kind of agree on the second point though. Most devs don't get paid enough, I've heard a lot of programmers state that if they left the games industry and went into other forms of software they would have a higher salary and work less. I'm not 100% sure how true this is, but it wouldn't surprise me at all.

Basically the same job but with a different level of importance and draw. You can hear people say "I'll watch that film because Idris Elba s in it" or "Yup definitely watching that next Jennifer Lawrence film" but you won't hear people say "oh man I'm definitely playing this game because Nolan North is in it".

Actors are a much bigger draw in tv and movies than in games, and thus more integral to its potential commercial success (no mention of Critical success or overall quality here) , hence why they are rewarded more for their work.

 

[myca77]

Yeah I don't understand this, who the fuck thought this was a comparable idea. If an actor doesn't show up for an audition they get an enormous fine and the Agent would lose their license and job? I don't have enough eyes in my head to roll at the stupidity of that one.

Whoever brought that to the table is.. I won't even go there.

I kind of understand the following in bolded though in regards to capture performance (not actual voice acting).

Our employers don’t believe that Motion and Performance Capture work is covered under this contract. The companies also proposed they be allowed to hire their own employees to play characters in video games without having to join the union.

This does make some sense in regards to cutting costs for the developer. If a scene was re-written, but the dialog hadn't changed, you may need all the actors in to mo-cap it again, which could be cost prohibitive. Being able to re-do the mo-cap with devs would save a lot of money and allow for more iteration. Granted it probably wouldn't be half as good as having the actual actors do the mo-cap, but if you were making a game on a budget it would allow you to give it better production values without breaking the bank.

Basically the same job but with a different level of importance and draw. You can hear people say "I'll watch that film because Idris Elba s in it" or "Yup definitely watching that next Jennifer Lawrence film" but you won't hear people say "oh man I'm definitely playing this game because Nolan North is in it".

Actors are a much bigger draw in tv and movies than in games, and thus more integral to its potential commercial success (no mention of Critical success or overall quality here) , hence why they are rewarded more for their work.

It is true that voice actors don't have a massive amount of pull with the consumers (apart from the select people who have to know everything about the games they play). But those voice actors that are used a lot do have a massive amount of pull with the casting agents, directors and the producers as they are the ones who can generally get the job done on time and on budget, and I would never begrudge them wanting to be better compensated if they've put the work in; Which a lot of them do tirelessly day in and day out. So I would argue that the work these actors do can be integral to, if not the commercial success, at least helping to ensure a game comes in on budget.

Edit:

Something to point out. I hope they don't have to strike for purely selfish reasons, as it could have an effect on my work towards the end of the year

 

[The Dear Leader]

I don't think what they are asking for seems too unreasonable, I would imagine this will be resolved fairly soon.

 

[erawsd]

Something about this rubs me up the wrong way. In the film industry, the actor/actress are pretty much one of the major elements of a film, whereas with gaming, it's the gameplay and the devs. The two mediums just aren't comparable like this va is trying to do.

If the games industry makes 3 times as much money then it's the people doing the real work to get a game running who deserve the money (yet it's the publishers who likely do)

Yeah, I totally support these guys getting a fair share of the pie if they aren't already but I agree with you that they cannot compare themselves to Hollywood actors. I appreciate great voice acting but it never has and likely never will be the reason I'm buying a game. Meanwhile, I'll totally watch a movie because of the actor attached to it or if a particular performance is being lauded.

 

[Ravidrath]

You are massively over estimating what nearly all voice actors get paid, massively.

Granted if you hire a big Hollywood actor to do a bit in a game they sure as hell will get paid a lot more than the regular pool of voice actors. Just the same if you bring hanz zimmer into score a game, he's going to get paid a lot more than any "game" composer (which I know pisses them off).

I said some, not all.

But even at base rates, a good voice actor is busy and makes a good living.

I'm fairly certain our non-SAG VAs make more than any of us do, and for many fewer hours. They're probably not working 2000 hours a year, but they're still probably making well over the average pay/hour of a game developer in the end.

For comparison, most devs earn under $75k a year. But let's just say they make $75k a year on average - that comes out to $37.50 an hour, assuming no crunch. Which of course is a wonderful lie - many devs probably actually work 3000-4000 hours a year.

A non-SAG VA makes around $200-250 an hour, so they can earn the same amount in 300-400 hours a year. And they probably actually work a lot more than that.

A lot of these voice actors are cool people from interviews and twitter and they do a good job (Erin Fitzgerald in particular seems delightful from her podcast with Greg Miller) I hope they get fair pay

Erin is indeed incredibly amazing, but she's not SAG.

 

[myca77]

I said some, not all.

But even at base rates, a good voice actor is busy and makes a good living.

I'm fairly certain our non-SAG VAs make more than any of us do, and for many fewer hours. They're probably not working 2000 hours a year, but they're still probably making well over the average pay/hour of a game developer in the end.




Erin is indeed amazing, but she's not SAG.

You said

Additionally, some of these actors can get paid six figures for a few days of work, far more than anyone that actually developed the game.

"These actors" I took to be voice actors in general who do the bulk of game dialog. There is no way on earth any of them, even the ones on the top of their game who have the highest demand will take home a six figure salary for a few days work, none of them. No one I know would ever pay that.

As I said earlier though, if you stick a Hollywood A lister in there their agent is going to make sure they get paid, most won't get out of bed for sums of money I can barely dream of

I do agree though, an actor who keeps busy can do well for themselves, and I have no doubt will earn more than I do in a year. I ain't mad though, featuring in two student films years ago was enough to make me realise I could never be an actor, it's actual hard work trying to draw emotions on cue. I'd have been a contender in silent cinema though, as no-one would hear my stutter.

Getting up to 400 hours of work a year though would be a dream to some, that's four sessions a week. You know your Nolan Norths and what have you will maybe get that from games, but most will also be looking into commercials, radio, animation and whatever else they can find to get them paid as there are only a finite number of games made each year that require large amounts of VO.

 

[Ravidrath]

"These actors" I took to be voice actors in general who do the bulk of game dialog. There is no way on earth any of them, even the ones on the top of their game who have the highest demand will take home a six figure salary for a few days work, none of them. No one I know would ever pay that.

As I said earlier though, if you stick a Hollywood A lister in there their agent is going to make sure they get paid, most won't get out of bed for sums of money I can barely dream of

SAG actors command higher pay than non-SAG, usually. And those are the ones pushing for this.

A-list Hollywood guys that make that kind of money are rare in games, but they are out there.

I'm just trying to illustrate the range that exists. But I think its likely that pretty much any VA you care about makes more money in a year than a game developer, for much less work.

 

[Breads]

Vocal stress and working conditions are huge ones I often hear horror stories about from friends of mine.

 

[myca77]

SAG actors command higher pay than non-SAG, usually. And those are the ones pushing for this.

A-list Hollywood guys that make that kind of money are rare in games, but they are out there.

I'm just trying to illustrate the range that exists. But I think its likely that pretty much any VA you care about makes more money in a year than a game developer, for much less work.

Believe it or not I'm aware of your first point, fortunately I don't deal with contractual stuff I'm the more tech/post guy

The A-listers who may appear in games are often used as a marketing push too which is where big money will come into play, I'm sure Kevin Spacey got payed well for COD.

I'm positive the higher earning Voice Actors do get paid more than most devs as you state, but I'd say that was more of damning statement on how developers are paid rather than a testament to how "well off" voice actors are.

 

[Lime]

I wish developers would do the same. They deserve it.

 

[Ravidrath]

I wish developers would do the same. They deserve it.

Devs on big games can get bonuses, and sizable ones at that. In the vast majority of cases I wouldn't think it's enough to justify the amount of overtime usually required by those projects, though.

The big difference, though, is that they're bonuses, not royalties or residuals. Hollywood-style royalties / residuals follow you around whether you still work at that company or not.

So it's not uncommon for someone to crunch for a year or more and then get laid off, and thus get no bonuses for the work they did.

 

[_woLf]

With all due respect to their cause, they should be happy they have a union. The rest of the industry desperately needs one.

 

[OléGunner]

With all due respect to their cause, they should be happy they have a union. The rest of the industry desperately needs one.

Is there no union for developers? That's shocking if true.

I'm all up for supporting voice actors too, but would especially like to see devs have better bonuses for the insane crunch periods they go through. The horror stories of crunch and being randomly laid off truly sadden me.

 

[patapuf]

I don't really see why voice actors should get royalties when pretty much no one does in the game industry.

 

[Ravidrath]

Is there no union for developers? That's shocking if true.

There is no union for developers.

And the way the industry works for most people, with frequent layoffs after you ship, it may as well migrate to per-project contracts with a union for benefits.

I don't really see why voice actors should get royalties when pretty much no one does in the game industry.

Some do, but it's contingent on your continued employment. They're really more like bonuses than royalties, since royalties and residuals follow you around after you leave that production.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

On the one hand I completely support everything they are asking for and wish them nothing but the best, on the other hand I miss the days when games were all text with no VO at all.

That's great but we're talking about realities, not living in fantasy land.

 

[BumblebeeCody]

Now the programmers need to be unionized, too.

This needs to happen!

 

[komplanen]

I support this strike and I support unions.

 

[thepotatoman]

Is there no union for developers? That's shocking if true.

I'm all up for supporting voice actors too, but would especially like to see devs have better bonuses for the insane crunch periods they go through. The horror stories of crunch and being randomly laid off truly sadden me.

Software developers in general are treated far worse than they deserve thanks to their utter lack of unionization, and game developers have it the worst of all.

Many of them practically work minimum wage given the amount of hours they're expected to work for their salary.

 

[Ravidrath]

Software developers in general are treated far worse than they deserve thanks to their utter lack of unionization, and game developers have it the worst of all.

Many of them practically work minimum wage given the amount of hours they're expected to work for their salary.

CGI people have it even worse, actually. But it's pretty bad in games.

 

[LordCiego]

This strike will only work if Nolan North and Troy Baker join it.

Good luck VA actors, this is the benefit of having an union, even if they try to convince you that they are evil anticapitalism organitazions.

 

[thepotatoman]

CGI people have it even worse, actually. But it's pretty bad in games.

I bet.

After the anti-unionization movement of the 80s, all the new professions born from the digital revolution got left behind on the unionization front. It just became too difficult to start any new unions, and the old established unions never gave a crap about expanding into the new professions.

 

[dark_inferno]

I hope this means we get back to the time where the story was only in the manual.

 

[liquidtmd]

I don't think what they are asking for seems too unreasonable, I would imagine this will be resolved fairly soon.

It's not happening soon for a lot of people of code and develop the game, so vocal actors coming and throwing around 'B-b-but Hollywood money' is a bit...I don't know.

I believe fundamentally the developer imbalance needs more spotlight that the vocal actors and I just really, really don't care who voices my games.

Some of my favourite games have non-ironic downright shitty vocal performance

 

[charlequin]

Shouldn't bonuses be more allocated to the Developers, the people who actually make the game?

Developers aren't unionized, and in general there's a lot of bad ideas (libertarian nonsense and "passion project" stuff) that are common in fields like software engineering and that actively get in the way of employees getting a good deal out of their employers.

These guys have actually taken the steps to organize and collectively stand up for themselves; I'm going to support that when it happens, not wait for groups that are collectively self-sabotaging to catch up.

 

[TetraGenesis]

I don't think the inconsistency in VA is as much to do with talent as it it the budget and time restraints given to the task at hand.

In film, TV and theatre you often have a rehearsal period and you are normally interacting with other actors, and you normally have no where near the amount of dialog as you may in a game. Anything but a massive AAA title with all the mocap bells and whistles will leave you with an actor on their own in a booth having to read off x amount of lines of dialog an hour with little context but what a director gives them. Very difficult work.

Unfortunately budgets won't normally allow for more than this, as it's expensive to add voice to a game. Actors, agents, directors, studio time, post production time all take their toll on a budget.

That's certainly a big part of it, you're absolutely right. I was glossing over that a bit.

But I think there's really no question that the talent pool is much smaller in video games than film and television, despite the industry's burgeoning size. You lure more and better actors in there and you're going to find a lot more Troy Bakers and Nolan Norths than we have now.

 

[tattooed_dwarf]

Shouldn't bonuses be more allocated to the Developers, the people who actually make the game?

Whynotboth.gif

This is weird attitude, if one part of industry wants better contract, it doesn't mean others can't have better contract too.

 

[AdaWong]

All this talk about how video game devs have it TERRIBLE in this industry is making me kinda depressed for my future. RIP my video game creating fantasies. <3

 

[Liha]

I support unions and this strike. They do a good job and deserve better contracts.