If you go back into the Snowhead Temple you will be able to warp straight to the boss, so it shouldn't take too long to melt the snow again.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Majora's Mask 3D |OT| Remakes are a Nice Thing to Have Heh, heh
- Thread starter Kriken
- Start date
If you go back into the Snowhead Temple you will be able to warp straight to the boss, so it shouldn't take too long to melt the snow again.
You can always warp straight to any boss once you've entered the boss room once before.
diffusionx
Gold Member
Great! So I should be able to go through everything.
Chuckie
Member
Yeah thank God for that, because I had to do it twice after the first time I beat Snow Temple.
MillionStabs
Banned
So I bought MM today in Target. But when I brought it home and started it up, there was already a save game on it from 4 days prior to my purchase. Even weirder, the game was behind a case when I got it, so I figured someone must have returned the game, then Target put it back behind the glass and sold it to me new?
Thought only GS did that kinda thing, I'm gonna be returning it on Thursday.
Thought only GS did that kinda thing, I'm gonna be returning it on Thursday.
Was it sealed? I don't remember the last time I bought a game from Target, but I'm pretty sure they sell sealed copies.
MillionStabs
Banned
Nope, not sealed. Which confuses me even more as to why it was behind a glass case.
Yeah, it definitely should have been sealed. I was just at Target yesterday and everything behind the glass should still be shrink-wrapped. You should probably go back and complain, since that's pretty shady.
About to finish this up. I played it and finished it once when it released in 2000 and I remember now why I never played it again. Of course being a Zelda game, it's still a very good game, but it's one of my least favourite 3D Zelda. Other than the snow temple, the other dungeons are not that good. Particularly the water temple with its water streams the camera can't handle and the finicky swimming controls (3DS version?) The canyon temple is also a bit of a pain with the constant need to switch between masks and play the song of emptyness. That remark is valid for the rest of the game too. Even with the new touch screen inventory, you still have a lot a switching between masks to do. And of course only 4 dungeons and very few items. Due to its atmosphere, the game doesn't have the magical and whimsical elements often associated with Zelda which makes them light-hearted and fun. The music in general is depressing, in Zora's bay in particular, which makes me not want to explore that area. Several of the side-quests are quite obscure and needing to know at exactly which time an event is going to happen is a bit too random. It's probably the most complex Zelda, but the most cumbersome too.
Adam Prime
hates soccer, is Mexican
Damn, I just preordered Xenoblade today.
I am LOVING Majora's Mask. I typically dislike the whole 3D Zelda franchise, but having a great time with this game. I hope that getting Xenoblade next week doesn't cause me to not finish this game. I just finished the Snow temple. So I guess I'm halfway through?
I am LOVING Majora's Mask. I typically dislike the whole 3D Zelda franchise, but having a great time with this game. I hope that getting Xenoblade next week doesn't cause me to not finish this game. I just finished the Snow temple. So I guess I'm halfway through?
TheMoon
Member
A bit less than halfway, yea.
Ben drowned.
johnsavage
Member
So almost finished the Great Bay Temple but couldn't because I ran out of time while fighting the dungeon boss. After I played the Song of Time I stopped playing because of rage. Is there a quick way to get back to the boss, or do I pretty much have to do everything again?
TheMoon
Member
There is a teleport at the entrance to every dungeon that lets you get straight to the boss after you have entered the boss chamber once. This exists for this exact scenario you're in (was also in the original).
Though you better have not just played the Song of Time but also went to the Owl Statue and saved...
johnsavage
Member
Oh awesome. I noticed the teleport at an old dungeon I finished, but I thought it only activated when you completed said dungeon. But yeah I saved right after I played the Song of Time. Thanks for the info!
Adam Prime
hates soccer, is Mexican
Damn this thread is abandoned and moved over to the Xenoblade 3D thread, huh?
I just entered the Zora's mask section. I never played the original but have read enough on the internet to know that many people consider this swimming to be the worst, it's not that bad. I haven't gotten to the temple part yet, right now doing the Pirate's hideout section.
I really really enjoy this game. I want to finish it before jumping back into Xenoblade, which I've played before.
I just entered the Zora's mask section. I never played the original but have read enough on the internet to know that many people consider this swimming to be the worst, it's not that bad. I haven't gotten to the temple part yet, right now doing the Pirate's hideout section.
I really really enjoy this game. I want to finish it before jumping back into Xenoblade, which I've played before.
Blasphemy!
Yeah, the swimming mechanic is fine now, but I do think it consumes a bit too much magic.
The mini-dungeon like sections such as the Pirates hideout are quite enjoyable.
Hello ZeldaGAF. 
Has this been posted?
I remembered people were having issues finding a full image like this around the time of release. Got it from the main Japanese site.
The moon was a separate image so I tried recreating it's position as best I could. Couldn't get the backgrounds though.
If someone can get the background texture I'll try adding it.
Or I guess another option would be to take the hi res poster and post this image over where the logo is....
Has this been posted?
I remembered people were having issues finding a full image like this around the time of release. Got it from the main Japanese site.
The moon was a separate image so I tried recreating it's position as best I could. Couldn't get the backgrounds though.
If someone can get the background texture I'll try adding it.
Or I guess another option would be to take the hi res poster and post this image over where the logo is....
Adam Prime
hates soccer, is Mexican
I just finished the third temple dungeon. It was my least favorite, ya know... swimming sections and all. The camera got too janky and when I wanted to swim I floated to the top, and when I wanted to sink I swam instead, typical stuff like that. And jeesh its the first dungeon where I didn't find half of the fairies. They are getting tougher to find now!
That's the first one where I had to do it twice to get all the fairies. Or wait...I think I got all the fairies but had to come back on another cycle to fight the boss. Very tough for sure.
Are you using the great fairys mask to find fairies? It's super helpful. I would definitely recommend going back in and finishing that one up at some point.
Skel1ingt0n
I can't *believe* these lazy developers keep making file sizes so damn large. Btw, how does technology work?
Does the Majora LE for 3DS say "Not for Resale" on the cartridge, or just the box?
When this first came out I was so hype, but it had the bad timing of launching alongside MH4U. Despite my MH addiction I managed to get to and unlock the water temple, but that was over a month ago and I haven't played it since.
I blame the stupid ass beaver race. That last race to finish getting all of the items from them was so frustrating that it made me want to quit Zelda forever.
Hopefully I can find more time to get back to this! I want to 100% it eventually.
I blame the stupid ass beaver race. That last race to finish getting all of the items from them was so frustrating that it made me want to quit Zelda forever.
Hopefully I can find more time to get back to this! I want to 100% it eventually.
Adam Prime
hates soccer, is Mexican
I was thinking about playing OOT for the first time after finishing this. But I think that's OOT is going to feel rough without the camera stick use. I've never played OOT before... I tried a few time and gave up before leaving the first area.
My experience is to not force myself through a Zelda game. I just finished the third dungeon and I think I'm just going to critical path the rest of the way through the game. Finding fairies and doing other odd quests isn't that interesting to me...
Warning: lots of images/complaining incoming
I was unsatisfied with this remake but wanted to be sure nostalgia wasn't blinding me, so I decided to replay MM64. I expected that the original would feel dated and unappealing coming off the MM3D.... but the exact opposite happened. Replaying the original only cemented my belief that MM3D is a bad remake. That may put me in the minority, but here's my case beat by beat.
Visuals
The original holds up surprisingly well with GlideN64's hardware lighting, bloom, and 16:9 enhancements and the 20fps completely slipped my mind once I started playing (with 3D on, MM3D chugs at about 25fps anyway). MM3D is gorgeous, but there are occasions when I honestly think this setup looks better:
Song of Time
Going back to the original yields a big gain right away. The original save system restores this:
Starting up a clean cycle with the impact of the splash screen is great. In contrast, booting up MM3D feels like you accidentally loaded someone else's save file. You don't remember where you are or what you're doing for a second, and it can be difficult to keep track all the sidequests you were juggling. Saving anytime you want is liberating, but it lowers tension and tempts you to quit in mid-session more often. I found myself accomplishing more in each sitting with the original, and saving + resetting the 3 day cycle at once is infinitely more rewarding than the owl statue method.
If the need arises, you can still save at an owl statue any time you want. Which makes me wonder what the major problem really was with the system... Unless you have a habit of loading files and then backing out without saving, why was this such a big fucking deal?
The swamp
The Deku nerf isn't the worst change in the game, but it's still a downgrade. To my surprise, spin hopping itself wasn't nerfed in MM3D; the Deku himself simply accelerates more slowly all around, even when running on land. This means that in addition to being unable to spin hop, Link also can't do regular hops at the same speed as the original, either. I see no reasonable explanation for why this was changed.
Spin hopping in the original is not only faster, but enables you to jump to pads much further away. You have more freedom in terms of how you get across the swamp as a result, and there's a more aggressive and satisfying feel when keeping your momentum unbroken like this. It's a solid upgrade.
I was taken aback by how much better the original Odolwa fight was. MM3D reduced him to a stupefying cycle of deku bombing/head stabbing, but here he truly feels like a boss for OoT veterans. You have to watch his movements and fire an arrow just as he's about to strike in order to stun him; if you're too slow, you'll have to sidejump or backflip to dodge his blade depending on whether it's a vertical or horizontal slash. If you run out of arrows, or just want to change your approach, you can use bomb flowers or deku bomb him from above.
In MM3D, you don't even have to fucking do anything to stun him- he becomes confused the moment you burrow in a deku flower and just stands around politely waiting to get bombed. You can't even choose to ignore his extreme deku bomb weakness and fight him the original way, as his attack patterns are completely altered now.
In MM64, just when you've gotten the hang of his patterns he wildly changes his approach, encircling you with fire, spin attacking, and releasing swarms of moths and spiders. You have to dodge and figure out so many attacks rapid-fire that it can easily get overwhelming. Technically, he's still capable these things in MM3D, but the fight is over so fast he never gets a single attack in- you're invincible when in the deku flower, and he can't even see you when in flight. He never gets wise to your approach or forces you to use a different attack. In the original, the fight never seems to unfold the same way twice; in MM3D, it can only unfold one way.
The Mountains:
On the plus side, reaching snowhead is a lot easier in MM3D thanks to the C-stick. I was never able to climb the entire ramp in a single unbroken roll before, but in MM3D it's easily possible. This is one of the few times where the C-stick actually felt like a vital enhancement.
This one is just a dick move. This snowhead fairy was already the hardest in the game, but for some reason MM3D decided to make it exponentially more tedious by adding a divot to prevent you from accessing it with a jump, even with the bunny hood on. You now have to slowly float down from the deku flower at the very top of the tower to get this. Fuck you, Mr. Aonuma.
As another small plus for MM3D, Goht is a little more interesting in MM3D thanks to the eyeball weak point breaking up the pacing. After getting used to stopping to use the sword or arrows to attack, it's a little duller to go back to the original since you're doing nothing but rolling the entire time. That said, the fact that his hooves now kick you back when rolling directly into his back is annoying; you have to hit him in the side or ramp up onto his upper back now. His lightning bolt attacks are also noticeably nerfed and don't seek you as accurately.
Fuck you, Mr. Aonuma (cont'd)
The worst thing about MM3D isn't that it penalized Zora swimming with magic use. The worst thing is that they didn't add magic to even allow Zora swimming as an option. The best swimming controls in history were effectively restricted from use. It's amazing how fast magic drains even without trying to use the original swimming- between constantly having to ram boards open and attack enemies, I still nearly ran out of a double bar of magic when doing the pirate fortress and narrowly avoided running completely out before finding shiro with the lens of truth.
Having the original swimming back felt so great that it'll be painful to ever replay MM3D again. No scouring the bay for magic, no dreadful slow-swimming, no bullshit... just fun. The controls are so natural I found myself effortlessly dolphin diving out of the water and onto platforms without even realizing I was doing it. It's not just fun- the bay was designed around this mechanic. Omitting it makes those expanses tedious to explore, and the consumption of magic can easily break the game- running out prevents Pinnacle rock and the stone mask soldier quests from being completable.
Not only that, but the fact that players are punished for Zora swimming with magic loss means that new players will never really use it outside of the beaver race (which is much more annoying thanks to the constant buzzing). The new Zora playground on the moon forces you to dolphin jump onto ledges with strict timing and no room for error- I find it hard to believe that new players will be adept enough at handling a control scheme they were forbidden to use the entire game to get through this section without major frustrations.
The slow swim has its uses, but making it come at the cost of one of the best mechanics in the game was just stupid. It's such bad game design that it honestly makes me concerned about Aonuma's judgement for Zelda U.
Gyorg's new fight is admittedly fuller and more interesting, but the final stage drags on too long and the atmosphere of the arena itself is severely reduced; the original really channels the darker, heavily shadowed concept art for the game, and the lack of visibility in the water makes Gyorg more frightening. It's hard to call either way, but the original is more atmospheric and quick to get to the point- I didn't miss the new fight much.
Ikana Canyon
By this point, I'm really not sure who Nintendo was remaking this game for. I never had a problem catching Skull Keeta. In the event that he slipped away, I accepted I had simply been too slow. It was a challenge, but simple with the right items- the bunny hood and gilded sword are quick enough to cut your way right to keeta without even needing to slow him down with an arrow.
MM3D made this fight so stupidly easy that the entire premise of a combined fight/chase sequence collapses. He can be caught so abruptly that the chase component of the fight never even gets started- I effortlessly caught after the first barrier, only fighting two skeletons, without using arrows or the bunny hood at all. The point of the fight is that it's a gauntlet of enemies and you have to cut through them as fast as you can to reach Keeta- killing two guys doesn't exactly have the same impact. Did anyone here fail to catch him in MM3D even once?
This is a case of the game not changing something that led to disappointment. The elegy of emptiness was this game's "iron boots" equivalent. If there was one uncontroversial change this game could have made to make everyone happy, streamlining this segment was it.
After the song was played once, they could have added a "clone" icon on the touchscreen to allow Link to copy himself on the fly from there. At bare minimum, they could have omitted the encore performances so that the player doesn't have to sit through the song 18 times during the Stone Tower climb alone- Wind Waker HD actually did this, making it all the more baffling that they didn't do something here.
Twinmold is another tricky fight to judge. Once again, it's a fuller, worthier boss that's undone by poor pacing. The original wasn't as weak and gimmicky as I remembered it, but MM3D turned it into something closer to what the boss of the final dungeon should be. It starts off really strong, but just drags on too long and too awkwardly in the final phase to fulfill its potential. I also didn't mind going back to the original that much here.
Miscellaneous
Going back to 3 buttons was rough, but it's not as if MM3D resolved this problem. ZL and ZR on the New 3DS aren't even available, and only one direction on the D-pad is used for anything. The other 3 directions would have made great spots for permanent transformation mask placements so that players would never need to swap them out of inventory again. Again, Wind Waker HD did something similar to this with the D-pad when sailing, so it's frustrating that Nintendo seemed to forget that lesson so soon. Had they utilized all 5 of those wasted buttons, a player could feasibly get through the game without ever having to swap their main items out at all.
The fairy rewards also could have been handled better. Getting the fairy sword after every dungeon was completed is pretty lame, as you don't really get any opportunities to appreciate it aside from the final boss- OoT gave you biggoron's sword right after reaching adulthood, allowing you to use it for over half the game. It's also a little lame that the sword itself is still an item and can't perform a normal spin attack, even if it does work when cursed.
As long as they were rearranging the rewards, it would have made more sense for the great fairy sword to be given after Great Bay, then save the double-heart enhancement for Stone Tower. OoT only rewarded something as huge as double hearts at the very end- literally halfway through Ganon's tower.
Finally, the new bomber's notebook is really annoying. Yes, it's more comprehensive and helpful, but the constant interruptions get the point of actually slowing the pace of the game down. It also interjects and opens just as you're about to receive a heart piece to tell you that you're about to receive a heart piece, which dampens the perfect pace of the classic reward theme/victory animation. The original notebook's subtle popups were fine; opening the book and completely pausing the game every time you speak to a NPC is too much. They also removed the original notebook jingle, which was a variation of the clocktown theme, and for whatever reason replaced it with a generic "bing" noise.
Conclusion-
There's honestly only one thing about the original that I found hard to go back to, and that's the lack of gyro aiming:
It's amazing how much the ability to freely move the camera helps out. I found myself dreading the target shooting games and Romani ranch segments because of this, though the analog stick is serviceable enough to get by.
It's also the case that the targeting was improved in MM3D. The bow originally fired at a vague point above the arrow head, requiring a certain amount of intuition about where the arrow would strike. Now, the arrow fires precisely at the pixel above the arrowhead, making it faster and more reliable. Similarly, Zora Link's fins now fire from the top of his head rather than his neck.
There are obviously tons of other improvements MM3D makes that I didn't mention here, but that's because they're mostly trifling, minor tweaks that are easily sacrificed. I like having the banker default to depositing my max rupees, and the secret backdoor in the deku palace is convenient, but I can easily play without these.
The same isn't true in reverse. The things MM3D takes away are massive, and I feel that regaining these huge mechanics in the original makes up for the loss of a hundred small tweaks. A remake shouldn't diminish anything that made the original title great. It should only enhance and expand on those things, the way that REmake and Zero Mission did. With its callous disregard for the original mechanics, MM3D just came off feeling like a Special Edition.
Because of those poorly thought out omissions, MM3D led to a few frustrating moments that made me feel like I hated this game for the first time in my life. In contrast, I enjoyed replaying the original through and through, 20fps and all, and the entire experience reaffirmed my love for the game. I was holding out hope that Nintendo would patch MM3D since it became obvious that fans were upset about the Zora changes, but it's clear now that this is the way the game will stay.
What does everyone else think? The consensus seemed to be that most people loved it, even though it was incontrovertible fact that the Zora swimming sucked dick. I'd be interesting to hear what people have to say now half a year later.
I was unsatisfied with this remake but wanted to be sure nostalgia wasn't blinding me, so I decided to replay MM64. I expected that the original would feel dated and unappealing coming off the MM3D.... but the exact opposite happened. Replaying the original only cemented my belief that MM3D is a bad remake. That may put me in the minority, but here's my case beat by beat.
Visuals
The original holds up surprisingly well with GlideN64's hardware lighting, bloom, and 16:9 enhancements and the 20fps completely slipped my mind once I started playing (with 3D on, MM3D chugs at about 25fps anyway). MM3D is gorgeous, but there are occasions when I honestly think this setup looks better:
Song of Time
Going back to the original yields a big gain right away. The original save system restores this:
Starting up a clean cycle with the impact of the splash screen is great. In contrast, booting up MM3D feels like you accidentally loaded someone else's save file. You don't remember where you are or what you're doing for a second, and it can be difficult to keep track all the sidequests you were juggling. Saving anytime you want is liberating, but it lowers tension and tempts you to quit in mid-session more often. I found myself accomplishing more in each sitting with the original, and saving + resetting the 3 day cycle at once is infinitely more rewarding than the owl statue method.
If the need arises, you can still save at an owl statue any time you want. Which makes me wonder what the major problem really was with the system... Unless you have a habit of loading files and then backing out without saving, why was this such a big fucking deal?
The swamp
The Deku nerf isn't the worst change in the game, but it's still a downgrade. To my surprise, spin hopping itself wasn't nerfed in MM3D; the Deku himself simply accelerates more slowly all around, even when running on land. This means that in addition to being unable to spin hop, Link also can't do regular hops at the same speed as the original, either. I see no reasonable explanation for why this was changed.
Spin hopping in the original is not only faster, but enables you to jump to pads much further away. You have more freedom in terms of how you get across the swamp as a result, and there's a more aggressive and satisfying feel when keeping your momentum unbroken like this. It's a solid upgrade.
I was taken aback by how much better the original Odolwa fight was. MM3D reduced him to a stupefying cycle of deku bombing/head stabbing, but here he truly feels like a boss for OoT veterans. You have to watch his movements and fire an arrow just as he's about to strike in order to stun him; if you're too slow, you'll have to sidejump or backflip to dodge his blade depending on whether it's a vertical or horizontal slash. If you run out of arrows, or just want to change your approach, you can use bomb flowers or deku bomb him from above.
In MM3D, you don't even have to fucking do anything to stun him- he becomes confused the moment you burrow in a deku flower and just stands around politely waiting to get bombed. You can't even choose to ignore his extreme deku bomb weakness and fight him the original way, as his attack patterns are completely altered now.
In MM64, just when you've gotten the hang of his patterns he wildly changes his approach, encircling you with fire, spin attacking, and releasing swarms of moths and spiders. You have to dodge and figure out so many attacks rapid-fire that it can easily get overwhelming. Technically, he's still capable these things in MM3D, but the fight is over so fast he never gets a single attack in- you're invincible when in the deku flower, and he can't even see you when in flight. He never gets wise to your approach or forces you to use a different attack. In the original, the fight never seems to unfold the same way twice; in MM3D, it can only unfold one way.
The Mountains:
On the plus side, reaching snowhead is a lot easier in MM3D thanks to the C-stick. I was never able to climb the entire ramp in a single unbroken roll before, but in MM3D it's easily possible. This is one of the few times where the C-stick actually felt like a vital enhancement.
This one is just a dick move. This snowhead fairy was already the hardest in the game, but for some reason MM3D decided to make it exponentially more tedious by adding a divot to prevent you from accessing it with a jump, even with the bunny hood on. You now have to slowly float down from the deku flower at the very top of the tower to get this. Fuck you, Mr. Aonuma.
As another small plus for MM3D, Goht is a little more interesting in MM3D thanks to the eyeball weak point breaking up the pacing. After getting used to stopping to use the sword or arrows to attack, it's a little duller to go back to the original since you're doing nothing but rolling the entire time. That said, the fact that his hooves now kick you back when rolling directly into his back is annoying; you have to hit him in the side or ramp up onto his upper back now. His lightning bolt attacks are also noticeably nerfed and don't seek you as accurately.
Fuck you, Mr. Aonuma (cont'd)
The worst thing about MM3D isn't that it penalized Zora swimming with magic use. The worst thing is that they didn't add magic to even allow Zora swimming as an option. The best swimming controls in history were effectively restricted from use. It's amazing how fast magic drains even without trying to use the original swimming- between constantly having to ram boards open and attack enemies, I still nearly ran out of a double bar of magic when doing the pirate fortress and narrowly avoided running completely out before finding shiro with the lens of truth.
Having the original swimming back felt so great that it'll be painful to ever replay MM3D again. No scouring the bay for magic, no dreadful slow-swimming, no bullshit... just fun. The controls are so natural I found myself effortlessly dolphin diving out of the water and onto platforms without even realizing I was doing it. It's not just fun- the bay was designed around this mechanic. Omitting it makes those expanses tedious to explore, and the consumption of magic can easily break the game- running out prevents Pinnacle rock and the stone mask soldier quests from being completable.
Not only that, but the fact that players are punished for Zora swimming with magic loss means that new players will never really use it outside of the beaver race (which is much more annoying thanks to the constant buzzing). The new Zora playground on the moon forces you to dolphin jump onto ledges with strict timing and no room for error- I find it hard to believe that new players will be adept enough at handling a control scheme they were forbidden to use the entire game to get through this section without major frustrations.
The slow swim has its uses, but making it come at the cost of one of the best mechanics in the game was just stupid. It's such bad game design that it honestly makes me concerned about Aonuma's judgement for Zelda U.
Gyorg's new fight is admittedly fuller and more interesting, but the final stage drags on too long and the atmosphere of the arena itself is severely reduced; the original really channels the darker, heavily shadowed concept art for the game, and the lack of visibility in the water makes Gyorg more frightening. It's hard to call either way, but the original is more atmospheric and quick to get to the point- I didn't miss the new fight much.
Ikana Canyon
By this point, I'm really not sure who Nintendo was remaking this game for. I never had a problem catching Skull Keeta. In the event that he slipped away, I accepted I had simply been too slow. It was a challenge, but simple with the right items- the bunny hood and gilded sword are quick enough to cut your way right to keeta without even needing to slow him down with an arrow.
MM3D made this fight so stupidly easy that the entire premise of a combined fight/chase sequence collapses. He can be caught so abruptly that the chase component of the fight never even gets started- I effortlessly caught after the first barrier, only fighting two skeletons, without using arrows or the bunny hood at all. The point of the fight is that it's a gauntlet of enemies and you have to cut through them as fast as you can to reach Keeta- killing two guys doesn't exactly have the same impact. Did anyone here fail to catch him in MM3D even once?
This is a case of the game not changing something that led to disappointment. The elegy of emptiness was this game's "iron boots" equivalent. If there was one uncontroversial change this game could have made to make everyone happy, streamlining this segment was it.
After the song was played once, they could have added a "clone" icon on the touchscreen to allow Link to copy himself on the fly from there. At bare minimum, they could have omitted the encore performances so that the player doesn't have to sit through the song 18 times during the Stone Tower climb alone- Wind Waker HD actually did this, making it all the more baffling that they didn't do something here.
Twinmold is another tricky fight to judge. Once again, it's a fuller, worthier boss that's undone by poor pacing. The original wasn't as weak and gimmicky as I remembered it, but MM3D turned it into something closer to what the boss of the final dungeon should be. It starts off really strong, but just drags on too long and too awkwardly in the final phase to fulfill its potential. I also didn't mind going back to the original that much here.
Miscellaneous
Going back to 3 buttons was rough, but it's not as if MM3D resolved this problem. ZL and ZR on the New 3DS aren't even available, and only one direction on the D-pad is used for anything. The other 3 directions would have made great spots for permanent transformation mask placements so that players would never need to swap them out of inventory again. Again, Wind Waker HD did something similar to this with the D-pad when sailing, so it's frustrating that Nintendo seemed to forget that lesson so soon. Had they utilized all 5 of those wasted buttons, a player could feasibly get through the game without ever having to swap their main items out at all.
The fairy rewards also could have been handled better. Getting the fairy sword after every dungeon was completed is pretty lame, as you don't really get any opportunities to appreciate it aside from the final boss- OoT gave you biggoron's sword right after reaching adulthood, allowing you to use it for over half the game. It's also a little lame that the sword itself is still an item and can't perform a normal spin attack, even if it does work when cursed.
As long as they were rearranging the rewards, it would have made more sense for the great fairy sword to be given after Great Bay, then save the double-heart enhancement for Stone Tower. OoT only rewarded something as huge as double hearts at the very end- literally halfway through Ganon's tower.
Finally, the new bomber's notebook is really annoying. Yes, it's more comprehensive and helpful, but the constant interruptions get the point of actually slowing the pace of the game down. It also interjects and opens just as you're about to receive a heart piece to tell you that you're about to receive a heart piece, which dampens the perfect pace of the classic reward theme/victory animation. The original notebook's subtle popups were fine; opening the book and completely pausing the game every time you speak to a NPC is too much. They also removed the original notebook jingle, which was a variation of the clocktown theme, and for whatever reason replaced it with a generic "bing" noise.
Conclusion-
There's honestly only one thing about the original that I found hard to go back to, and that's the lack of gyro aiming:
It's amazing how much the ability to freely move the camera helps out. I found myself dreading the target shooting games and Romani ranch segments because of this, though the analog stick is serviceable enough to get by.
It's also the case that the targeting was improved in MM3D. The bow originally fired at a vague point above the arrow head, requiring a certain amount of intuition about where the arrow would strike. Now, the arrow fires precisely at the pixel above the arrowhead, making it faster and more reliable. Similarly, Zora Link's fins now fire from the top of his head rather than his neck.
There are obviously tons of other improvements MM3D makes that I didn't mention here, but that's because they're mostly trifling, minor tweaks that are easily sacrificed. I like having the banker default to depositing my max rupees, and the secret backdoor in the deku palace is convenient, but I can easily play without these.
The same isn't true in reverse. The things MM3D takes away are massive, and I feel that regaining these huge mechanics in the original makes up for the loss of a hundred small tweaks. A remake shouldn't diminish anything that made the original title great. It should only enhance and expand on those things, the way that REmake and Zero Mission did. With its callous disregard for the original mechanics, MM3D just came off feeling like a Special Edition.
Because of those poorly thought out omissions, MM3D led to a few frustrating moments that made me feel like I hated this game for the first time in my life. In contrast, I enjoyed replaying the original through and through, 20fps and all, and the entire experience reaffirmed my love for the game. I was holding out hope that Nintendo would patch MM3D since it became obvious that fans were upset about the Zora changes, but it's clear now that this is the way the game will stay.
What does everyone else think? The consensus seemed to be that most people loved it, even though it was incontrovertible fact that the Zora swimming sucked dick. I'd be interesting to hear what people have to say now half a year later.
Delicious Waffles
Member
Resurrecting this thread for a question.
I finished Snowhead Temple and just stumbled onto how to make the Razor Sword. It says you have to sharpen your sword but this has to happen on the first day or night. When I finished Snowhead Temple, I was already on the second day.
Following how to make the Razor Sword, it says you have to play the Song of Time, return to the Snowhead Temple and defeat Goht again. Now, if I go through Snowhead Temple again, will it be like going through it for the first time again or is it already set up that I could get to Goht quickly?
I finished Snowhead Temple and just stumbled onto how to make the Razor Sword. It says you have to sharpen your sword but this has to happen on the first day or night. When I finished Snowhead Temple, I was already on the second day.
Following how to make the Razor Sword, it says you have to play the Song of Time, return to the Snowhead Temple and defeat Goht again. Now, if I go through Snowhead Temple again, will it be like going through it for the first time again or is it already set up that I could get to Goht quickly?
Barrow Roll
Member
After you beat a temple boss and have obtained their mask you can return to the temple after playing the Song of Time and warp straight to the boss without going through the rest of the temple.
Delicious Waffles
Member
Fantastic. Thank you!
J
Jotamide
Unconfirmed Member
Also, if you didn't get around to it the first time, once you beat Goht again make surge you grab the heart piece and the rupees in the area in between the Blacksmith and Goron Village using the Zora mask.
Sorry to bring that thread back from the dead, but it seems I have a bit of an issue...
I'm in the Gerudo Fortress and I keep taking pictures of one of her (a close-up, since I'm using the Stone mask), but it doesn't save it? When I take it back to the guy on the beach (to get the hippocampus), it doesn't let me show it to him, it just allows me to take a picture of him, as if I never took or saved the picture of the Gerudo...
I don't get it, is my game bugged or something? I never encountered this issue in the N64 version so that's weird... Maybe my picture isn't good enough? I keep trying but it acts as if I didn't take one. And yes, I do press "yes" whenever it asks me if I want to save the picture
I'm in the Gerudo Fortress and I keep taking pictures of one of her (a close-up, since I'm using the Stone mask), but it doesn't save it? When I take it back to the guy on the beach (to get the hippocampus), it doesn't let me show it to him, it just allows me to take a picture of him, as if I never took or saved the picture of the Gerudo...
I don't get it, is my game bugged or something? I never encountered this issue in the N64 version so that's weird... Maybe my picture isn't good enough? I keep trying but it acts as if I didn't take one. And yes, I do press "yes" whenever it asks me if I want to save the picture
Fuck that's why I didn't remember this part, because it wasn't there in the first place.
This one is just a dick move. This snowhead fairy was already the hardest in the game, but for some reason MM3D decided to make it exponentially more tedious by adding a divot to prevent you from accessing it with a jump, even with the bunny hood on. You now have to slowly float down from the deku flower at the very top of the tower to get this. Fuck you, Mr. Aonuma.
Also the first boss, I remembered him being more challenging and better overall I just thought it was nostalgia.
Seriously why make changes like these?
Just the casual save would be enough.
Sorry to bring that thread back from the dead, but it seems I have a bit of an issue...
I'm in the Gerudo Fortress and I keep taking pictures of one of her (a close-up, since I'm using the Stone mask), but it doesn't save it? When I take it back to the guy on the beach (to get the hippocampus), it doesn't let me show it to him, it just allows me to take a picture of him, as if I never took or saved the picture of the Gerudo...
I don't get it, is my game bugged or something? I never encountered this issue in the N64 version so that's weird... Maybe my picture isn't good enough? I keep trying but it acts as if I didn't take one. And yes, I do press "yes" whenever it asks me if I want to save the picture
Hi Grizzo
My experience is that the picture takes best if you don't zoom too much in it. That is very odd that it's not saving when you take it. As to the error you're having--
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/877120-the-legend-of-zelda-majoras-mask-3d/71247384
I did some cursory research and that seems like it might help. Here's hoping.
Hippocampus is part of a brain. Do you mean seahorse?
Hi Grizzo
My experience is that the picture takes best if you don't zoom too much in it. That is very odd that it's not saving when you take it. As to the error you're having--
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/877120-the-legend-of-zelda-majoras-mask-3d/71247384
I did some cursory research and that seems like it might help. Here's hoping.
Hippocampus is part of a brain. Do you mean seahorse?
Haha yes sorry! Hippocampus is a false friend since sea horse is "hippocampe" in french
As for my issue well it turns out all you had to do was to check the sea horse next to the guy, not just talk to that guy (which was not that logical). So anyway, it all worked out in the end!
But there should be a sign that says you already have a picture in your pictograph box... Thanks a lot for the help Max!
Because the first boss wasn't very clear on how you beat him. Honestly, when I first beat him in the N64 version I had no idea what I did. Then I went back to work it out and after beating him a second time I still wasn't sure. In the 3DS version it was quite obvious.
Haha yes sorry! Hippocampus is a false friend since sea horse is "hippocampe" in french
As for my issue well it turns out all you had to do was to check the sea horse next to the guy, not just talk to that guy (which was not that logical). So anyway, it all worked out in the end!
But there should be a sign that says you already have a picture in your pictograph box... Thanks a lot for the help Max!
Glad it worked out and it looks like that was the same solution they had in the link also. Man, I know you have played the game many times before but I really loved the 3D remake so I hope you will feel the same.
I don't know "false friend"--is that same as false cognate?
Glad it worked out and it looks like that was the same solution they had in the link also. Man, I know you have played the game many times before but I really loved the 3D remake so I hope you will feel the same.
I don't know "false friend"--is that same as false cognate?
Oh yeah, the 3D remake is everything I could have dreamt of and more (just like OOT3D)! I've only played 10 hours of it in April and then forgot about it but I'm diving right back into it at the moment. The graphics look just... lush. Every second of it is an enchantment for the eyes.
(and I checked for false friend and thought you could say that in English, but I guess false cognate is more accurate)
Are you talking about this post? They make it pretty clear they're happier with the emulated setup itself, not just "N64 version had better graphics".
Necro-bumping because I didn't realize people responded here.
That's part of what made Odolwa a fun boss. He wasn't a simplistic or formulaic boss with a "hit the weak point" mechanic. It's not as if he was confusing to fight- you could hit him anywhere at any time and do damage. You just had to work out a strategy of how to get close enough to do that without getting killed yourself, and the game left that entirely up to you. You could use arrows, bombs, or Deku bomb him from above. As long as you landed more hits than him, you won.
I have to reiterate how boring the new fight is. It's a clean, easy to understand cookie-cutter boss fight with an easy to execute pattern. You do the exact same thing 3 times in a row and you win. This boss is now sub-miniboss level difficulty. I'm not opposed to adding a little more structure so that new players can find a simpler way to beat him, but locking the fight so that the casual method is the only way to beat him is bullshit. He no longer attacks as he did before, nor can you attack him. Instead of intensely sword fighting a huge warrior, you're performing a chore while the boss politely waits. Sometimes Nintendo is so concerned about protecting gamers from challenge that they end up protecting them from playing the game itself.
I never complained about the graphics in MM3D, just a few changes to the art design, and even there I think MM3D looks better overall (it's beautiful). The emulator is a legitimate comparison because it's the best available option for replaying the original game; if this remake is worth its salt, it should be competitive even with an enhanced emulated version.
I'm honestly really disappointed that I can't like the remake. I want to. I'd love to play a fresh version of the game and enjoy it, but every bad change is a like a roadblock that grounds my enjoyment to a halt, and those changes hit often. Great Bay is an absolute slog in MM3D. I hope there'll be another release someday- maybe a HD Zelda remaster compilation- that will take the opportunity to reverse some of the changes or improve the implementations. It's obvious that the Zora swimming was not well received by... pretty much anybody, and quite a few people are also bummed out about the elegy of emptiness not being fixed. It would be so damned easy to fix these things and make the game an absolute masterpiece (toggling the Zora speeds would take less than a day).
That's part of what made Odolwa a fun boss. He wasn't a simplistic or formulaic boss with a "hit the weak point" mechanic. It's not as if he was confusing to fight- you could hit him anywhere at any time and do damage. You just had to work out a strategy of how to get close enough to do that without getting killed yourself, and the game left that entirely up to you. You could use arrows, bombs, or Deku bomb him from above. As long as you landed more hits than him, you won.
I have to reiterate how boring the new fight is. It's a clean, easy to understand cookie-cutter boss fight with an easy to execute pattern. You do the exact same thing 3 times in a row and you win. This boss is now sub-miniboss level difficulty. I'm not opposed to adding a little more structure so that new players can find a simpler way to beat him, but locking the fight so that the casual method is the only way to beat him is bullshit. He no longer attacks as he did before, nor can you attack him. Instead of intensely sword fighting a huge warrior, you're performing a chore while the boss politely waits. Sometimes Nintendo is so concerned about protecting gamers from challenge that they end up protecting them from playing the game itself.
I never complained about the graphics in MM3D, just a few changes to the art design, and even there I think MM3D looks better overall (it's beautiful). The emulator is a legitimate comparison because it's the best available option for replaying the original game; if this remake is worth its salt, it should be competitive even with an enhanced emulated version.
I'm honestly really disappointed that I can't like the remake. I want to. I'd love to play a fresh version of the game and enjoy it, but every bad change is a like a roadblock that grounds my enjoyment to a halt, and those changes hit often. Great Bay is an absolute slog in MM3D. I hope there'll be another release someday- maybe a HD Zelda remaster compilation- that will take the opportunity to reverse some of the changes or improve the implementations. It's obvious that the Zora swimming was not well received by... pretty much anybody, and quite a few people are also bummed out about the elegy of emptiness not being fixed. It would be so damned easy to fix these things and make the game an absolute masterpiece (toggling the Zora speeds would take less than a day).
I beat the second dungeon and I have to say I love how organically designed the new areas are. The dungeons feels like actual temples and not a collection of random puzzles. Snowhead temple is easily one of my favorite dungeons of the series, I hope the other two are great as well.
There aren't really any new areas in the game, that's all the original design.
I personally like all the temples in the game. Not to spoil much, but the next temple is a water one, which of course means people hate it. However, I think it's great; it makes better use of the water theme than OoT's water temple and has some really visually stimulating design going on. It's one of the more intensely complicated dungeons in the series, which you'll either find fun or frustrating depending on whether you're up for it.
The fourth temple is commonly regarded as one of the toughest and best in Zelda history, so you've got nothing to worry about there (other than actually beating it).
Other than the fishing holes, of course.
Ah, yes. They were a much better use of time than fixing the elegy of emptiness.
One thing I do really love about MM3D is that the gyro aiming is incredibly good, and it's almost a dealbreaker for revising the original for me. The target games and alien sequences are just so much less appealing when using stick-only aim. I've been trying to configure the Steam controller to get gyro in the original, but it's extremely complicated and doesn't seem to practically possible.
At this point, the ideal scenario is that people dump the textures for MM3D and convert them for use with the original to close some of the gap and the Steam controller becomes configurable enough outside of Steam to get gyro aim. If that never happens, I may just have to play MM3D and drink heavily when using the Zora mask.
ajim
Member
Been playing this on my 3ds and reqlly enjoying it so far. I never finished the original on 64 because I was so burnt out on 3d zelda after playing OOT to absolute death.
I forgot a lot about this game so it feel completely new to me, even the mechanics were lost on me with reversing/slowing time etc.
The game looks absolutely glorious and plays like a dream. I jusr can't help but wish I could map masks to the dpad which seems like an oversight.
I can't reqlly empathise with the complaints others have because I barely remember the original and never completed it, so it's all thumbs up for me.
Whilst I'm really enjoying it I think I enjoyed a link between world's a bit more and wind water hd a lot less than both.
Would love a hd version of this... But bring on twilight princess!
I forgot a lot about this game so it feel completely new to me, even the mechanics were lost on me with reversing/slowing time etc.
The game looks absolutely glorious and plays like a dream. I jusr can't help but wish I could map masks to the dpad which seems like an oversight.
I can't reqlly empathise with the complaints others have because I barely remember the original and never completed it, so it's all thumbs up for me.
Whilst I'm really enjoying it I think I enjoyed a link between world's a bit more and wind water hd a lot less than both.
Would love a hd version of this... But bring on twilight princess!
Effigenius
Member
I am really enjoying this game a lot now also. My only complaint is the time mechanic makes me feel obligated to consult a guide in dungeons so I don't run out of time and have to repeat things. Otherwise the time mechanic isn't that bad now that I know how to handle it, and it's nice using it to keep getting the same rupee chests over and over and putting the money in the bank. Every time I reset time, I first play the inverted song of time and then get the 100 rupee chest in east clock town.
Inquisitive_Ghost
Member
You should have plenty of time for any dungeon without a guide as long as you use the Inverted Song of Time and go at the beginning of the first day, unless you're totally unfamiliar with Zelda dungeons. The only one that might not be true for is the fourth dungeon, but it can certainly still be done.