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Malaysia Airlines flight en route from Amsterdam shot down over Ukraine; no survivors

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R

rakhir

Member
It's usless If they want to hide the shooting down - if the plane was hit by a missile there would be a lot of particles everywhere, even if they destroy the part that was actually hit. The technology is good enough to determine that by plenty other means.
 
R

RandyBobandy

Banned
What purpose do the black boxes hold when we know what happened to the plane? The pilots wouldn't have seen it coming and everyone would've been incapacitated straight away wouldn't they? Whether being blown out if the plane or rendered unconscious due to the lack of oxygen
 
O

Opus Angelorum

Member
RandyBobandy said:
What purpose do the black boxes hold when we know what happened to the plane? The pilots wouldn't have seen it coming and everyone would've been incapacitated straight away wouldn't they? Whether being blown out if the plane or rendered unconscious due to the lack of oxygen
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Depends where the missile hit. If it struck the tail or one of the wings the plane would have been intact for a period of time.
 
P

Partial Gamification

Banned
Enkidu said:
I think convincing Russians of anything is a lost cause at this point. The population at large has made their bed with Putin and no amount of evidence to suggest any wrongdoing will work. The best one can hope for is that they eventually wise up further down the line.

Any investigation would be for the rest of the world. The goal should be to try and force Russia to leave Ukraine alone so it can stabilize and hopefully eventually prosper. Crimea is a lost cause, I doubt Russia will be willing to hand it back no matter what, but hopefully the rest of Ukraine can be left intact.
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I'd say trying to convince everyone in Russia would be a lost cause from the get-go. Even if the Putin Government is approved by truly 80% of the population one-in-five are critical of his decisions. You can't tell me that Pussy Riot is believing everything that is told on Russian State-sponsored media. I don't want to suggest undermining the regime's narrative, just counter it with the irrefutable proof (if established) that there is a clear link between the separatists and Putin or the Kremlin.

I feel it is still a leap over circumstantial evidence, and it could very well be a blind eye from Moscow when it comes to; the former president of Ukraine sponsoring this, Russian ultra-nationals sponsoring this, or an organized crime element working as paramilitary for Putin/Kremlin. There is an attempt to push the idea that the BUK system is highly sophisticated and requires advanced training that the Russians likely supplied; see Rear Adm. Kirby's press release from around three days ago. I'm sorry but that is not the only option and until there is a solid body of evidence disseminated, all that is known is that there is support coming from the Russian side and on that side there has been a Russian military build-up. Is Igor Strelkov still on the Russian payroll?Pending being hampered with planted red herrings and destruction of evidence (missile parts), the investigation should be able to do a great deal with the intelligence that is being passed around and referred to (satellite images and intercepted communications).

I think the investigation will do its job for the World, but it could end up aggravating a longer-term relationship between Ukraine and Russia. Its a problem, I'm not suggesting that there is a viable solution -but irrefutable evidence is necessary if Russia is going to be implicated in having a direct role in shooting down MA-17, in my opinion.
 
A

antonz

Member
Looks like UK may not be the only one to bring up prior events. Looks like more and more in Poland are bringing up the 2010 crash that killed Poland's President and a ton of other officials
 
S

sangreal

Member
Jx9KUDh.png


CNN is saying the US government provided this image showing what they believe to be the missile trajectory
 
M

Midnight Phoenix

Member
Last few days Russian TV is full about EU must make alliance with Russia and bring down USA superiority in the world. That EU must stop being puppet of Obama.

P.S. I am in Crimea, that occupied by Russia, so there is only Russian TV, so this is hilarious to watch.
 
M

Mental Atrophy

Banned
FinalD said:
That's it? I could've made that in Paint. I'm hoping they can provide something else to back up their statements.
Click to expand...

What do you expect to see? Raw IR data itself would reveal specific capabilities, such that weapons developers know what they need to design around to avoid detection. Google Earth or ArcGIS plots communicate the point to non-technical people anyway. What you're seeing in this image is pretty standard for non-technical reporting that you'll find in daily/weekly briefings, albeit sanitized for public consumption--even the earth textures used have to come from non-classified sources to be used on TV. Take the data, put it into a form that decision makers can understand. The plot isn't drawn by hand in MS Paint, it's generated from accurate, reliable data.
 
P

Partial Gamification

Banned
more recent:
Hollande said a first warship was nearly finished and would be delivered as planned in October.

"For the time being, a level of sanctions has not been decided on that would prevent this delivery," Hollande said.

"Does that mean that the rest of the contract - the second Mistral - can be carried through? That depends on Russia's attitude," Hollande added.

The EU has so far hit 72 Ukrainian and Russian figures with travel bans and asset freezes but there is reluctance to go further due to close economic ties between Russia and some EU member states, notably Germany and France. The current sanctions are referred to as “Phase 2” in diplomatic circles.

British Prime Minister David Cameron on Monday had called on the EU to adopt tougher "Phase 3" sanctions and to halt all arms sales to Russia, specifically citing the 1.1 billion-euro French contract for two warships.

But speaking to reporters on Monday, Hollande noted that, “The Russians have paid. Should we repay 1.1 billion euros if the boat was not delivered to the purchaser?” he asked. "The contract was signed in 2011, the boat is almost finished and should be delivered in October."
[...]
http://www.france24.com/en/20140722-us-uk-oppose-france-sale-mistral-warship-russia-ukraine-cameron/
Click to expand...
 
K

Knurek

Member
antonz said:
Looks like UK may not be the only one to bring up prior events. Looks like more and more in Poland are bringing up the 2010 crash that killed Poland's President and a ton of other officials
Click to expand...

The people here are bringing the crash only in the relation to the fact that 'Russians don't seem to like for other nations to inspect plane crashes'. Nobody sane is suggesting the Polish plane was shot down by a Russian missile.
(Lots of insane people do suggest that, similar to how lots of US folk suggest 9/11 was an inside job).
 
T

Tom_Cody

Member
BlastProcessing said:
A good article on New Republic about how the Russian media is covering the event.

My favorite quote
Click to expand...
I just came to post this. I'm going to create a thread for it unless someone else wants to. The conspiracy theories that are being reported by the state controlled news are beyond belief:

The New Republic said:
The best of the bunch is, of course, an elaborate one: MH17 is actually MH370, that Malaysia Airlines flight that disappeared into the Indian Ocean. According to this theory, the plane didn’t disappear at all, “it was taken to an American military base, Diego-Garcia.”

Then it was taken to Holland. On the necessary day and hour, it flew out, bound for Malaysia, but inside were not live people, but corpses. The plane was flown not by real pilots; it was on autopilot. Or take-off (a complicated procedure) was executed by live pilots, who then ejected on parachutes. Then the plane flew automatically. In the necessary spot, it was blown up, without even using a surface-to-air missile. Instead the plane was packed with a bomb, just like the CIA did on 9/11.
Click to expand...
 
Nikodemos

Nikodemos

Member
MacNille said:
What the fuck is wrong with Hollande? Every thing that he do (except for Mail) is a major fuck up.
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He's a bog-standard Champagne Socialist idiot. Mali was conducted with intel and army folks left over from Sarkoleon (whom a sizeable number of French people now regret having dumped).
 
Chuckie

Chuckie

Member
Tom_Cody said:
I just came to post this. I'm going to create a thread for it unless someone else wants to. The conspiracy theories that are being reported by the state controlled news are beyond belief:
Click to expand...


My god who comes up with this shit?

So whose corpses were on the plane? The ones who were in MH370 or MH17?
And no matter what the answer to that is... where are the people from the other flight?
 
M

Mael

Member
Nickodemos said:
He's a bog-standard Champagne Socialist idiot. Mali was conducted with intel and army folks left over from Sarkoleon (whom a sizeable number of French people now regret having dumped).
Click to expand...

Yeah not so much if you look up what he costs us in total and Sarkozy should have handled the problem before he got booted out of office and Hollande was basically forced into the situation.
Hollande is shite but let's not romanticize what the former did, if there's any justice he'll get his time...in prison
 
S

sangreal

Member
Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera posted an interview w/ separatist soldiers

http://www.corriere.it/english/14_l...wn-51e99c60-118f-11e4-affb-3320a03d21e8.shtml

“On Thursday afternoon, our commanders ordered us to get into the lorries with our weapons and plenty of ammunition. Perhaps ten minutes earlier, there had been a huge explosion in the sky. ‘We’ve just shot down one of the Kiev Fascists’ planes’, they told us, warning us to take care because at least some of the crew had reportedly baled out. White objects had been seen floating in the clouds. We might have had to fight to round them up”, the soldier explained.“
Click to expand...
 
M

Mael

Member
Aiii said:
I don't think this has been posted yet, but here's a speech by Dutch Minister of Foreign Affairs Frans Timmermans to the UN Security Council: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcGCBHNcKyI

It's heartbreaking, but all said: pretty much perfect.
Click to expand...

It's absolutely infuriating that this speech has even been made.
The situation should never had come to this.
the allegations are pretty powrfull too.
Regardless of who shot the planes, you've got shitty inhumane thugs looting corpses in broad daylight while people elsewhere mourn their deaths.
 
R

raindoc

Member
Looking at the pictures of the shrapnel-ridden wreckage: could, or better would an Air-to-Air missile do that kind of damage?
As far as I understand SAM technology it works very much like Anti-Air-Artillery: exploding not on contact with, but in close proximity to the target, thus sending a huge amount of shrapnel flying, resulting in a shotgun-like effect on the target.
An Air-to-Air missile is smaller - even if they utilize the same principle (which I don't know), how easy would it be to rule out the russian version of an attack-jet firing the missile, just by the distribution pattern?
 
H

HelloMeow

Member
raindoc said:
Looking at the pictures of the shrapnel-ridden wreckage: could, or better would an Air-to-Air missile do that kind of damage?
As far as I understand SAM technology it works very much like Anti-Air-Artillery: exploding not on contact with, but in close proximity to the target, thus sending a huge amount of shrapnel flying, resulting in a shotgun-like effect on the target.
An Air-to-Air missile is smaller - even if they utilize the same principle (which I don't know), how easy would it be to rule out the russian version of an attack-jet firing the missile, just by the distribution pattern?
Click to expand...

How likely is it than an air to air missile explodes in front of the target?
 
M

Midnight Phoenix

Member
raindoc said:
Looking at the pictures of the shrapnel-ridden wreckage: could, or better would an Air-to-Air missile do that kind of damage?
As far as I understand SAM technology it works very much like Anti-Air-Artillery: exploding not on contact with, but in close proximity to the target, thus sending a huge amount of shrapnel flying, resulting in a shotgun-like effect on the target.
An Air-to-Air missile is smaller - even if they utilize the same principle (which I don't know), how easy would it be to rule out the russian version of an attack-jet firing the missile, just by the distribution pattern?
Click to expand...

Well, http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/22/w...act-by-supersonic-missile-analysis-shows.html
 
O

Osiris

I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
raindoc said:
Looking at the pictures of the shrapnel-ridden wreckage: could, or better would an Air-to-Air missile do that kind of damage?
As far as I understand SAM technology it works very much like Anti-Air-Artillery: exploding not on contact with, but in close proximity to the target, thus sending a huge amount of shrapnel flying, resulting in a shotgun-like effect on the target.
An Air-to-Air missile is smaller - even if they utilize the same principle (which I don't know), how easy would it be to rule out the russian version of an attack-jet firing the missile, just by the distribution pattern?
Click to expand...

The investigators will be able to determine what type of missile shot down the aircraft fairly easily, a small Air to Air missile, such as that carried by the SU-25 only has a 3kg warhead, whereas a Buk SA-11 has a 70kg warhead. The pattern of shrapnel damage over the fuselage will point to the size of warhead used by the missile.
 
P

Partial Gamification

Banned
raindoc said:
Looking at the pictures of the shrapnel-ridden wreckage: could, or better would an Air-to-Air missile do that kind of damage?
As far as I understand SAM technology it works very much like Anti-Air-Artillery: exploding not on contact with, but in close proximity to the target, thus sending a huge amount of shrapnel flying, resulting in a shotgun-like effect on the target.
An Air-to-Air missile is smaller - even if they utilize the same principle (which I don't know), how easy would it be to rule out the russian version of an attack-jet firing the missile, just by the distribution pattern?
Click to expand...

There is around 40lb/kg [?] [70kg, above] of explosive on the warhead of most of the rockets the BUK fires (assuming that's what fired the missile). Not sure how that compares to standard air-to-air missiles being used but I'd think they are likely not so massive and certainly have less range. The amount of shrapnel and concussive damage (seen in how the aircraft broke-up and fractured) would be able to b determined, and point toward a certain armament, or armaments.

If enough of the plane is able to be pieced back together then it can be determined if it was one or multiple shots and an estimate of how much force and shrapnel hit the plane (and estimate how much shrapnel there would have been in total). From those pieces of shrapnel impacting the plane, you can reverse the vectors to the bits exploded and determine how far the missile was (approximately) from the plane when proximity fuse triggered (or it detonated -depending on what was fired). Having all the evidence makes it easier than having part of the evidence, and that is obvious but the only way I can really answer the question. It can and will be done by the investigation team. edit: scorch marks too.
 
R

raindoc

Member
HelloMeow said:
How likely is it than an air to air missile explodes in front of the target?
Click to expand...
that obviously depends on the angle of attack and how the warhead works. which is my question: are air-to-air missiles designed to directly hit a target like they show it in Top Gun or will they also detonate in the near vicinity of a target.

Midnight Phoenix said:
Well, http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/22/w...act-by-supersonic-missile-analysis-shows.html
Click to expand...

that article only states what I wrote about SAM missiles, but does not give info about the difference to air-to-air missiles. does that class of weapons also use fragmentation warhead and if so: how reliably can they be differentiated from another, by effect on target (distribution pattern of perforations).

EDIT: Osiris, PG - that's what I figured, but since there's other factors, like how close was the missile when it detonated, the patterns should vary. with the 70kg/3kg difference however, I reckon it should be fairly obvious once the wreckage is thoroughly examined..
 
P

Poona

Member
Aiii said:
I don't think this has been posted yet, but here's a speech by Dutch Minister of Foreign Affairs Frans Timmermans to the UN Security Council: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcGCBHNcKyI

It's heartbreaking, but all said: pretty much perfect.
Click to expand...

Seems to spend some time talking on what the passengers must have been thinking and doing before the plane hit the ground which surprised me.

I thought it had been pretty much accepted that they died instantaneously when the missile hit. Firstly because no distress signals were sent and even if people didn't die from the missile somehow then the freezing temperatures, drop of air pressure and loss of oxygen would have got them so quickly that there wouldn't have been time to react.
 
Alx

Alx

Member
HelloMeow said:
How likely is it than an air to air missile explodes in front of the target?
Click to expand...

Apparently there are some missiles that are specifically designed for that : stabilize in front of the plane and explode there, to be sure to harm the pilot(s) in the cockpit. That's what some weapon expert said on French TV the other day, anyway (sounds like high technology).
Of course there are other more simple missiles that will just track heat signature, and will rather explode near the engines.
 
M

Midnight Phoenix

Member
raindoc said:
that obviously depends on the angle of attack and how the warhead works. which is my question: are air-to-air missiles designed to directly hit a target like they show it in Top Gun or will they also detonate in the near vicinity of a target.



that article only states what I wrote about SAM missiles, but does not give info about the difference to air-to-air missiles. does that class of weapons also use fragmentation warhead and if so: how reliably can they be differentiated from another, by effect on target (distribution pattern of perforations).
Click to expand...

To say about what type of warhead is used, you need to know missile mark.
 
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