Feel free to defend them while they're being threatened.
Man shoots and kills intruder. Police determine she was not pregnant.
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Feel free to defend them while they're being threatened.
Old people with guns aren't the best idea, but that guy was just nuts, especially since he knew that she was pregnant.
My main question is why she was robbing a house while pregnant. What if the cops had tackled her to the ground?
The old man is clearly very cruel and unforgiving based on that interview, but they did break into his house (apparently multiple times), and getting shot is one of the risk factors of breaking into a person's house, especially one who is paranoid because they are old and living alone. What if the cops had tackled her to the ground? That could cause her to lose her baby too.
My main question is why she was robbing a house while pregnant. What if the cops had tackled her to the ground?
The old man is clearly very cruel and unforgiving based on that interview, but they did break into his house (apparently multiple times), and getting shot is one of the risk factors of breaking into a person's house, especially one who is paranoid because they are old and living alone. What if the cops had tackled her to the ground? That could cause her to lose her baby too.
The Silver
Member
Man people gotta stop screwing with old people, they WILL shoot your ass.
I'm young and still have too much to lose to go around shooting fleeing robbers, If I'm an elderly man who's too old for this shit then god help the next fool who decides to rob me.
I'm young and still have too much to lose to go around shooting fleeing robbers, If I'm an elderly man who's too old for this shit then god help the next fool who decides to rob me.
Juke Joint Jezebel
Member
The loss of the baby is sad and all, but I really don't have sympathy for home invaders or burglars. It's a bit conflicting for me.
After a fair trial, we can toss her corpse in jail.
And then the guy who killed her.
I don't either. I also don't have sympathy for killers.
kurtrussell
Banned
I think that's the problem. All parties concerned exercised free will with a messy end result.
It ultimately comes down to the precedent for self-defense. You go and say he was in the right for shooting her in the back twice while fleeing, and you open up a whole new can of worms. I'm not sticking up for her whatsoever, but had she been in the home and he felt his life was in danger, then he'd have a reason to shoot.
Shao Kahn on the Lawn
Member
Someone who has established a pattern of home invasion is arguably still a threat even after they've left. I doubt that they were going to have some moral epiphany after this third excursion that preempted a fourth had the shooting not taken place.
What in the actual fuck is wrong with you
Continuing to pursue them off the property could be taken as premeditation.
Pre-meditation is not the issue.
A mother has the right to abort her own child, another person does not have the right to make that decision for her. How is that not obvious?
Read the post that was made in response to. Context is important, and given that context no, what I quoted doesn't fit with that.
Mr.Wreckless
Banned
And that's the key right, while, because if I arrive a split second too late and the guy has his back to me then I might as well give him an ice cold beer on the way out according to the people here.
Better wait for the 4th time they rob me right?
travisbickle
Member
Why are people questioning a pregnant woman committing burglary?
She needed money for her unborn child.
She needed money for her unborn child.
robertlebrone
Member
This is a risk you take when you try to rob someone in their own home. Robbery isn't a low risk activity. Sucks she got killed, but I won't lose any sleep over what happened to her. If she really cared about her unborn child she wouldn't be out robbing seniors in the middle of the night. They slept on the old man, thinking he was an easy mark and he made them pay. The world spins on.
goldenpp72
Member
What is with all these sheltered responses? These robbers are constantly robbing the same damn person routinely and likely only didn't engage in outright assault because they themselves discovered they were at risk. Why is it that when some morons decide to rob a persons house, it's suddenly a line of 20 questions?
Hey Mr. Robber, will you be planning to murder me, rape my wife or abduct my children today fine sir? Oh you just want my stuff and plan to flee, that's cool, it's not like you could possibly come back again and finish the job after fleeing, and I know for sure the cops will definitely catch ya because they do on TV every time. Have a nice day!
When someone enters a persons home, they forfeit their right to live in my mind. The reason for this is because you do NOT know their intention, but no matter what their intention, you KNOW it's to do harm to you, be it because of stolen goods (things you likely work hard for), assault, murder, etc. In an instance where people routinely rob the same damn person multiple times, it's very clear there is no remorse for the actions they are committing, removing them from society through one means or another is doing society a favor. I'd probably not personally gun down a pregnant woman (even though she may well have just been lying), but I also can't tell you how livid I would be knowing I have now been robbed three damn times by the same people. How about this novel idea, don't come into my home uninvited, and you won't ever get gunned down or harmed by me, ever. It's a very simple peace offering, don't inflict harm on me and I won't to you, I have no blood lust, but I do desire to be safe and peaceful, and if that requires removing a violent element then so be it.
I want to hear one person tell me they have been robbed and not feel like they were totally violated and in fear for the next time it will happen, 3 times would break many people. While it would be nice to live in candy land and feel that 100 percent of robbers are just sad, desperate people who wouldn't harm a fly, the reality is they are usually a bunch of scumbags who are often sociopaths with no remorse over the fact they are harming other people who would not harm them. If people feel they have been abandoned so much by society that they can start robbing people, then let society deal with them.
Hey Mr. Robber, will you be planning to murder me, rape my wife or abduct my children today fine sir? Oh you just want my stuff and plan to flee, that's cool, it's not like you could possibly come back again and finish the job after fleeing, and I know for sure the cops will definitely catch ya because they do on TV every time. Have a nice day!
When someone enters a persons home, they forfeit their right to live in my mind. The reason for this is because you do NOT know their intention, but no matter what their intention, you KNOW it's to do harm to you, be it because of stolen goods (things you likely work hard for), assault, murder, etc. In an instance where people routinely rob the same damn person multiple times, it's very clear there is no remorse for the actions they are committing, removing them from society through one means or another is doing society a favor. I'd probably not personally gun down a pregnant woman (even though she may well have just been lying), but I also can't tell you how livid I would be knowing I have now been robbed three damn times by the same people. How about this novel idea, don't come into my home uninvited, and you won't ever get gunned down or harmed by me, ever. It's a very simple peace offering, don't inflict harm on me and I won't to you, I have no blood lust, but I do desire to be safe and peaceful, and if that requires removing a violent element then so be it.
I want to hear one person tell me they have been robbed and not feel like they were totally violated and in fear for the next time it will happen, 3 times would break many people. While it would be nice to live in candy land and feel that 100 percent of robbers are just sad, desperate people who wouldn't harm a fly, the reality is they are usually a bunch of scumbags who are often sociopaths with no remorse over the fact they are harming other people who would not harm them. If people feel they have been abandoned so much by society that they can start robbing people, then let society deal with them.
Because you'd be putting the unborn child at an insane level of risk.
Ignore if that was sarcasm.
This mindset not only confuses me, it legitimately scares me.
She was of no threat to him at that point in time. Is the punishment for robbery death? No it is not. And even if it were he has no right to carry out the sentence. This is ridiculous, it is not okay to kill someone for breaking into your home if they are not posing an immediate physical threat to you.
travisbickle
Member
Not killing someone isn't the same as giving them an ice cold beer, I question the morals of some people.
No they aren't, and certainly not to any extent to justify shooting either of them.
Your only justification for doing them any harm is the fact they present a threat. If they no longer present a threat you obviously lose the justification. I don't understand the difficulty you're having.
robertlebrone
Member
Man, there are so many programs out their for mothers in low income situations it's insane. She didn't need to do this for her child, there were plenty of other options if that was her primary concern.
You do not have the right to kill that person after he is off your property, either by the law or by any moral perspective.
Scully Scully Scoo
Member
But they had attacked him and this was the third time they were robbing him. Enough is enough
ReturnOfTheRAT
Member
This guy.
http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Press-Conference-Scheduled-About-Man-Who-Shot-Intruder-Who-Said-She-Was-Pregnant-268507272.html
it's also not clear if she was even pregnant
User 100115
Banned
I was saying that just because someone turns to theft doesn't automatically make them worthless. I really wish the US prison system was rehabilitation based instead of punishment based.
I also don't believe it's right to take the life of someone who's no threat to you in that moment.
Mr.Wreckless
Banned
If these people are REPEATEDLY robbing me they continue to pose a threat to me until they are either dead or in jail.
Furthermore the point I was originally making is that after you just got jumped and robbed you aren't in the same state of mind you would be otherwise. You won't just say "hey these people just beat my ass and robbed me but now that he turned around I no longer feel threatened, I'll just let them go". That's just absurd and only happens in the minds of people on message boards.
kurtrussell
Banned
I just find that curious. As I said, ignoring the whole moral issue, the end result is the same - a "life" was ended through the decision of another "life".
So... the inconsistencies that trouble me are:
1 - the definition of whether an unborn child is a "life", because you can only murder something that's alive and if an unborn baby IS considered alive in the eyes of the law, surely the professional carrying out an abortion is a murderer?
2 - how can the legal definition of murder, i.e. the death of a life through the actions of a third party separate to the victim be applied consistently here?
To reiterate, I'm really trying very hard to sidestep the moral issues here, as I just don't have an opinion on it either way. What I *am* poking at is the seemingly contradictory legal arguments being applied inconsistently solely based on who choose to dispatch of the life.
Old guy felt helpless and angry after being a victim to their crime three times. He should not have killed her, but you can't at all understand his feelings or convictions? Give me a break.
Not an immediate threat justifying deadly force, no. That may be a question for some morally (it shouldn't be) but it is absolutely not legally.
also causing grievous harm to my person
So if when you arrive they are outside and fleeing, are you seriously going to chase them down and kill them?
Jesus Christ dude.
Hmm I'm not sure about this. I think he does have the right to defend himself from the intruders but since one of the intruders is a pregnant woman who was shot and killed is why I'm not sure if the old man made the right decision to pull that trigger. I just wonder what the other man (I guess it's her boyfriend or husband) must be feeling loosing both her and the baby.
That's always a possibiltiy instead of 100% certainty.
If what he says was true, then I can see why he would get a gun after being assaulted and was in the process of being robbed.
But the second they started running then they no longer posed an immediate threat and he should have contacted the police.
Being proud to admit he shot a defenseless woman who pleaded for her life and that of her unborn child turned this case from possible self-defense to cold murder.
OriginalNameGuy
Member
She wasn't thinking about her baby when she was traumatizing this old guy by repeatedly robbing his house. They pushed him into a corner and he snapped so it comes as no surprise he didn't care about them running away or her physical state.
Shao Kahn on the Lawn
Member
That's your opinion. I disagree with it. This is an 88 year-old man: aside from the obvious fact that they could have caused a heart attack/stroke easily enough by doing what they did, they outright assaulted him. On their third robbery of his home. I find it amazing that anyone can sit here and claim that these people were no longer a threat because they'd vacated the premises. They didn't have the upper hand but they never stopped being a threat.
Scully Scully Scoo
Member
I dont see anything wrong it. Break in to my home be prepared to face the consequence
unholyrevenger72
Banned
the 1% think so
Vermillion
Banned
I think he's saying that if the child is alive, she's alive regardless of the mother's choices. Either abortion is murder or it is not, as it's killing a living being.
Anyways, upon reading this thread in full, I recognize that this discussion (as well as the one in the paragraph above) is not possible (and will likely never be) on NeoGAF, as it's simply too complex to be solved by pithy retorts or simple statistics.
It is an interesting discussion, though.
Mr.Wreckless
Banned
Don't want to be killed, don't repeatedly threaten the safety of my family.
It's not like I'm asking for something unreasonable here.
Oh it turns out they were robbing him repeatedly. That makes it even worse on them.
travisbickle
Member
People do crazy shit when they perceive it's there only option.
I've read stories about heavily pregnant prostitutes.
Roe v Wade affirmed the woman's right to choose an abortion up to the point of the fetus achieving viability, weighing the potential life against the choices and health of the mother. In the case of an unborn child being killed by someone else, half of that scale is gone and the potentiality of life clearly wins out. It's not at all contradictory given the reasoning behind making abortion legal.
A hypothetical but fair point.
One could also say the old man doesn't deserve to be vilified because he could very well be drifting into senility, missing medications, etc. He's an 80 year old man, potentially not all there, being robbed on a somewhat consistent basis (repeated burglaries by the same people at least once). He finally caught those who were stealing from him and went off the rails, but he didn't necessarily do it out of some evil he has deep within his heart.
We're making a lot of bold statements/name-calling knowing the full story regardless, but I guess that is to be expected. I kind of feel bad for everyone.
Don't rob people. You don't know how crazy they are or what they might do. Ultimately you'll probably end up dead or in prison as a result of it.
That said, I perfectly understand those that find this level of vigilante justice indefensible, and I kind of agree with them.
kurtrussell
Banned
They're fun, but they charge a premium for the novelty value :-
freethoughtbubble
Member
My family's home was robbed years ago. I was the first to arrive home from school. The house was empty, except for my dog who was only a pup at the time cowering under my sister's bed. They took my mother's jewelry. Games, DVDs, my original SNES. Drawers pulled out and cupboards wide open. They scrawled profanities on the walls of my little brothers' room.
Exactly as you said, I felt violated and afraid. I remember running out the door and to a neighbor's house, my heart beating so damn fast. I still remember the way my mother cried seeing her home in shambles.
So, no, mine is not a sheltered response. You don't forfeit your life simply because you break into somebody's home. A person has the right to defend himself under such circumstances, yes. But that's different from saying you have a right to kill somebody and can act on that right as they flee down the street begging for their life.
What you describe is illegal, but more than that it's evil.
Edit: Regarding the story at hand, I feel sad for the loss of the woman and her child under these circumstances. Yes, she was wrong for having broken into the old man's home, but that did not give him the right to execute her. If the facts show that the victim no longer posed a threat to him at the time of the shooting, then he's a murderer and should be prosecuted as one.
I'm sure that woman had feelings and convictions too. And like her, he still committed a terrible crime.
If you can't have sympathy for assault and burglary, I'm not sure how you can have sympathy for murder.
No only that but they broke his collar bone, the pregnancy hasn't been confirmed either.
This was the fourth time. At some point people just snap, doesn't make it right but it is what it is.
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