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[Alcibiades]

A Wonderful Life started out with almost just half of what The Twin Snakes did it's first month (though TTS did have an extra week on sale), but then managed to maintain better numbers in the consequent months, and showed some very resiliant legs. I remember predicting that A Wonderful Life would come close or possibly match The Twin Snakes in sales for March (expecting The Twin Snakes to have good legs and A Wonderful Life to drop bigtime in later months), but instead the opposite happened.

The Twin Snakes

March: 122,435
April: 24,299
May: 11,919
June: 12,044
July: 7,335

Total: 178,032

A Wonderful Life

March: 68,126
April: 36,507
May: 27,812
June: 36, 452
July: 22,069

Total: 190,966

I'm not terribly surprised at A Wonderful Life's success considering the Gamecube audience and the type of games that find success there, but I'm surprised (well, maybe not) that Konami totally botched an opportunity to expand the Metal Gear Solid audience to this Nintendo demographic (who may have gone on to get excited about Snake Eater). From what I can tell, they didn't really have good distribution and I saw stores running out of their initial shipments then not getting any for months. They didn't do any extensive TV advertising either, and it would have been nice for them to get the word out with cardboard stands at gamestores and stuff like that...

It's there loss, and when A Wonderful Life for Girls comes out, Kojima better not cry like Mikami when Snake Eater numbers come in...

here is my previous thread:

http://forums.gaming-age.com/showthread.php?t=3630&highlight=wonderful+life

thing is, I can't imagine a store where Harvest Moon would outsell Metal Gear Solid, but to be honest, I'm seeing copies of A Wonderful Life on the shelves (Best Buy & Target), while The Twin Snakes gets the random shipment of 4 at Target, and the BB I work at hasn't gotten any in over a month (I think we've deleted it from our system, so I'm not expecting any more)...

 

[AniHawk]

This thread can only end in bloodshed.

 

[GaimeGuy]

I'm gonna be over there, guys. Tell me when the battle is over.

 

[SolidSnakex]

"It's there loss, and when A Wonderful Life for Girls comes out, Kojima better not cry like Mikami when Snake Eater numbers come in..."

I really doubt he's going to be upset with another 5 million sold.

Seriously Kojima said from the start, before TS was even rumored for the GC that the game wouldn't work on the GC, and that's why he wasn't even going to think about making a game on the system.

 

[AniHawk]

"It's there loss, and when A Wonderful Life for Girls comes out, Kojima better not cry like Mikami when Snake Eater numbers come in..."

I really doubt he's going to be upset with another 5 million sold.

Seriously Kojima said from the start, before TS was even rumored for the GC that the game wouldn't work on the GC, and that's why he wasn't even going to think about making a game on the system.

And it begins.

 

[Solid]

But but but Mario and Yoshi is in Twin Snakes!!! BUY!!111

 

[Drensch]

Seriously Kojima said from the start, before TS was even rumored for the GC that the game wouldn't work on the GC, and that's why he wasn't even going to think about making a game on the system.

If Konami/Kojima had given a shit about it it would have sold far better.

 

[beerbelly]

Twin Snakes is just not fun to play with. MGS was good back in 1998, but it feels very dull in 2004.

 

[Ristamar]

I'm waiting for a MGS:TTS price drop.

 

[Sho Nuff]

I'm waiting for a MGS:TTS price drop.

You mean to tell me you don't have an extra $1.99?

 

[Mooreberg]

So in other words you're glad that Gamecube is probably going to be losing the support of another major publisher because... you've got harvest moon for girls?

 

[ge-man]

If Konami/Kojima had given a shit about it it would have sold far better.

Exactly. The game was left to sell on name alone. The bulk of game was developed by a team many dislike and the advertising campaign was nothing more than some print adds and online pop ups. Nintendo would've been better of going after another exclusive.

Sadly people will still try to argue that the GC platform is to blame.

 

[jedimike]

The Twin Snakes was a total bomb. I remember the fine folks at GAF proclaiming it would crush Ninja Gaiden and Cubes would be flying off the shelf. While I didn't believe the rhetoric, I certainly thought it would outsell MGS:S on Xbox.

 

[ge-man]

So in other words you're glad that Gamecube is probably going to be losing the support of another major publisher because... you've got harvest moon for girls?

Nintendo NEVER had their support. These number only help to further illustrate how much "care" was devoted to this project.

 

[Ristamar]

You mean to tell me you don't have an extra $1.99?

No, I mean to tell you I have a nasty backlog, so it can sit tight on the shelf and drop in price until I'm ready.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Nintendo NEVER had their support. These number only help to further illustrate how much "care" was devoted to this project.

You shouldn't have expected much care by Kojima's team. The guy didn't want to develop the game on the GC. So while he wasn't going to let it be a bad game, he also wasn't going to make sure it had as much care put into it as MGS2 or MGS3 has. If anything Nintendo should've looked for a better company to do the remake, since they were the ones that chose SK.

 

[Grizzlyjin]

And it begins.

Save yourself, I'll hold them off.

I don't think Kojima is the type to whine about this. Its not like he spent a large amount of time on the Twin Snakes, from my understanding he was just brought in every once in awhile to observe the progress.

I have to say I'm a bit surprised though, I kinda had it in my mind that anything MGS could sell big time in America...I guess thats not always true.

 

[ge-man]

You shouldn't have expected much care by Kojima's team. The guy didn't want to develop the game on the GC. So while he wasn't going to let it be a bad game, he also wasn't going to make sure it had as much care put into it as MGS2 or MGS3 has. If anything Nintendo should've looked for a better company to do the remake, since they were the ones that chose SK.

But the SK is only part of the problem. They are not the ones responsible for the games low visibility.

Again, Nintendo was better off going after another exclusive. The fact that they had to have one of their teams do most of the ground work should've been a clue that their relationship with Konami is still shitty.

 

[Laurent]

You shouldn't have expected much care by Kojima's team. The guy didn't want to develop the game on the GC. So while he wasn't going to let it be a bad game, he also wasn't going to make sure it had as much care put into it as MGS2 or MGS3 has. If anything Nintendo should've looked for a better company to do the remake, since they were the ones that chose SK.

Are you saying The Twin Snakes sucked? The remake was perfectly done by Silicon Knights. The graphics were on par with Metal Gear Solid 2. This is Eternal Darkness all over again... Poor sales have nothing to do with Silicon Knights; the publisher is to blame!

I blame Nintendo for not supporting Eternal Darkness with strong advertisement. (anyone remember how they promote Perfect Dark?)

I blame Konami for not supporting The Twin Snakes with some advertisement. Unfortunately, I think that Nintendo and Konami forgot to talk about it when they dealed the game.

 

[SolidSnakex]

"Are you saying The Twin Snakes sucked?"

Absolutely not. It's a great game just like MGS.

"The remake was perfectly done by Silicon Knights."

Simply not the case.

"The graphics were on par with Metal Gear Solid 2."

Way too many inconsistancies to mention it with MGS2. MGS2 had some framerate problems but it was stable 99% of the time. It also didn't have the problem with modeling females that TS has (the Meryl scene in the bathroom is really bad). It's a good job that could've been done alot better.

 

[ge-man]

I blame Konami for not supporting The Twin Snakes with some advertisement. Unfortunately, I think that Nintendo and Konami forgot to talk about it when they dealed the game.

Hardly. Konami knew what they were doing. This game was almost pure profit for them. Why waste the budget when you have NEW MG coming the same year for the biggest console userbase?

 

[jarrod]

KCEJ should've made a Boktai game for GC instead... Yu-Gi-Oh! GC did really well for them iirc.

While I didn't believe the rhetoric, I certainly thought it would outsell MGS:S on Xbox.

Hasn't it? What did MGS2S XBox sell in it's first 5 months?

 

[Lord Error]

Watching "the battle" of Cube's 3rd party games is like.... On man, I'd better not even try...

It's there loss, and when A Wonderful Life for Girls comes out, Kojima better not cry like Mikami when Snake Eater numbers come in...

What is "A Wonderful Life for Girls" and why do you think that product will sell more than MGS3?

 

[Laurent]

Simply not the case..

Let me repeat this. The remake was perfectly done by Silicon Knights. Of course it could have been better, but Silicon Knights completed their duty perfectly. They took a game released in 1998 on a different platform, upgraded it visually and converted the MGS2 engine from PS2 to GCN (which is surely was not an easy job).

Way too many inconsistancies to mention it with MGS2. MGS2 had some framerate problems but it was stable 99% of the time. It also didn't have the problem with modeling females that TS has (the Meryl scene in the bathroom is really bad). It's a good job that could've been done alot better.

The graphics were on par with MGS2. Althought, the game is not to compare with Kojima's team work with MGS2 (the global stabily of it's framerate).

Of course it coud have been better. But they are a lot of crappier games out there that sold much more for one unique reason; Advertisement.

 

[Memles]

What is "A Wonderful Life for Girls" and why do you think that product will sell more than MGS3?

It's Harvest Moon with a female main character.

I think that was an attempt at humour, that failed miserably...at least I hope it was. I love HM, but still...you don't joke about that.

 

[Alcibiades]

yeah, it was tongue-in-cheeck, but honestly, I expect this Snake Eater to kind of underperform to expectation this holiday season because of the massive competition (days within Halo 2, Killzone, GT4, Echoes, NFS: Underground 2, Call of Duty, GoldenEye 2). I doubt it will sell what MGS 2 did, but maybe I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first sequel to do less than it's previous version this generation...

 

[dark10x]

The graphics were on par with MGS2.

I'd say they came within 60% of matching MGS2. The framerate was very in-consistant, the models were poorly designed (IMO), the game was very grainy and dithered (including many textures, especially alpha textures), and -ALL- of the cinematic effects I LOVED in MGS2 were flat out GONE. That was actually one of the things that bothers me the most...the lack of post-processing effects really hurt the cinemas and the framerate hurt the gameplay.

I certainly enjoyed the game and have played through it several times, but it was technically rather poor (which is a shame).

It did have SOME advantages, though. Many textures (though certainly not all) were sharper than anything in MGS2, the game supports 480p, and some of the lighting was a bit better.

 

[jarrod]

Out of curiousity, does anyone know how well Save the Homeland sold on PS2?

 

[jedimike]

Way too many inconsistancies to mention it with MGS2. MGS2 had some framerate problems but it was stable 99% of the time. It also didn't have the problem with modeling females that TS has (the Meryl scene in the bathroom is really bad). It's a good job that could've been done alot better.

From a consumer standpoint, the graphics were on par... you can nitpick them all day long, but that certainly isn't why consumers didn't buy the game.

Like others have said, it's just doesn't fit the GC's demographic. Advertising can only take you so far. Just like all of those EA sports ads that only mention GC... they certainly didn't have an impact on GC sales of EA products.

 

[ge-man]

From a consumer standpoint, the graphics were on par... you can nitpick them all day long, but that certainly isn't why consumers didn't buy the game.

Like others have said, it's just doesn't fit the GC's demographic. Advertising can only take you so far. Just like all of those EA sports ads that only mention GC... they certainly didn't have an impact on GC sales of EA products.

Here's the problem--the game wasn't even advertised. MGS:TTS had the most non-existant ad campaign I have ever seen for a title of such prestige. That doesn't mean it would've done better anyway, but I think people should keep in mind that so many things followed Murphy's law when it came to MGS:TTS that simply pointing out one factor would be simplify the issue too much.

I'm sure GC owners wanted a Konami title, but what would you expect sales wise when only the hardcore know that a title is coming out or if said title is developed by a company that many considered to be the worst that Nintendo had. And let's not forget that this is remake of game that wasn't all that old and can still be played on your PS2.

 

[Mooreberg]

I just don't understand how a remake of a five and a half year old game on one system indicates how a new installment is going to sell on another system. It's ignoring the fact that the metal gear fanbase is on PlayStation 2 to begin with.

And like I said before, it just means konami (and other third parties) are going to be less likely to put a high priority game on the system. They didn't waste development resources on this, so it wasn't a major blow to them, but at the same time they can take it as an inexpensive lesson of where they distribute their franchises. I don't see how that helps Nintendo in the long run, or how being happy about harvest moon selling more is a good sign. I'd say it's a pretty damning example of how third parties are going to regard the system in the future. It's one thing if meathead publishers like Acclaim, Midway, or Eidos use the system as an excuse (lets face it, Gamecube has nothing to do with DX2 being a piece of crap, and TS2 sold competively across all three systems). But Nintendo reamins competitive on a worldwide scale thanks to their lead over xbox in Japan, which is bolstered by Japanese third party support. Once you've got the second or third largest third party in Japan (I think Konami is behind Square-Enix and now Sega-Sammy) questioning the worth of the system, it spells trouble.

 

[jedimike]

Here's the problem--the game wasn't even advertised. MGS:TTS had the most non-existant ad campaign I have ever seen for a title of such prestige. That doesn't mean it would've done better anyway, but I think people should keep in mind that so many things followed Murphy's law when it came to MGS:TTS that simply pointing out one factor would be simplify the issue too much.

I see people pull this ad trump card way too often. I don't watch a lot of TV, but I certainly saw print ads and in store ads for TTS. A game without ads won't sell, but shoving ads down people's throats isn't going to make a big difference. (see PGR2, RSC2).

 

[jarrod]

but shoving ads down people's throats isn't going to make a big difference. (see PGR2, RSC2).

see SOCOM, Jak & Daxter, ATV Offroad Fury, Bloodwake, Driv3r, Brute Force, Animal Crossing...

 

[ge-man]

I see people pull this ad trump card way too often. I don't watch a lot of TV, but I certainly saw print ads and in store ads for TTS. A game without ads won't sell, but shoving ads down people's throats isn't going to make a big difference. (see PGR2, RSC2).

Again, look at what I wrote. PGR and RSC are not Metal Gear Solid. MGS is a huge, well established name--the ad campaign did not reflect. There isn't guarentee that a better adversiting plan would've done anything, but that isn't my point. The game wasn't worth it to Konami.

 

[suikodan]

I remember reading a topic from a person in this thread saying that MGS:TTS would sell 750K copies.

We're still a long way off from that.

It's also funny to read that Pikmin 2 will sell huge quantities

(FYI: I bought MGS:TTS)

 

[jarrod]

It's also funny to read that Pikmin 2 will sell huge quantities

Prediction: It'll outsell Ninja Gaiden.

 

[ge-man]

Prediction: It'll outsell Ninja Gaiden.

Your an evil SOB

 

[AniHawk]

I remember reading a topic from a person in this thread saying that MGS:TTS would sell 750K copies.

I predicted 280,000 for this year in NA, and I remember someone getting on my case about it (after the first month of sales, I lowered it to 230,000 though). It was the lowest real prediction in that thread.

 

[Justin Bailey]

You mean to tell me you don't have an extra $1.99?

What's this about $1.99? I'm looking to buy back some games that were stolen from me. . .

 

[Laurent]

From a consumer standpoint, the graphics were on par... you can nitpick them all day long, but that certainly isn't why consumers didn't buy the game.

Here's the problem--the game wasn't even advertised. MGS:TTS had the most non-existant ad campaign I have ever seen for a title of such prestige. That doesn't mean it would've done better anyway, but I think people should keep in mind that so many things followed Murphy's law when it came to MGS:TTS that simply pointing out one factor would be simplify the issue too much.

I agree with those posts.

I'm sure GC owners wanted a Konami title, but what would you expect sales wise when only the hardcore know that a title is coming out or if said title is developed by a company that many considered to be the worst that Nintendo had. And let's not forget that this is remake of game that wasn't all that old and can still be played on your PS2.

Wrong. The worst company that Nintendo had was Rareware, post-Perfect Dark.

 

[Mooreberg]

see SOCOM, Jak & Daxter, ATV Offroad Fury, Bloodwake, Driv3r, Brute Force, Animal Crossing...

That doesn't really work in all cases. Brute Force has sold horribly (less than 200K to date, despite the fact that oxm called it the next Halo).

Sales are gonna be dictated by two things

01. Consumer interest
02. Quality

In that order. You can have a game like Rallisport Challenge 2 that is brilliant but sells poorly because at the end of the day, Rally games aren't popular in the US (Sony doesn't even publish the WRC games here).

With games like Socom and ATV, the advertising helped raise interest, and the fact the games are good (I don't see them getting a 6.5 score from anywhere) helped the word of mouth.

Twin Snakes is a remake of a game that didn't need to be remade, and it was released on a system that isn't really associated with the franchise. You can make the argument that the first metal gear games appeared on NES, but by that logic the main Final Fantasy installments and Ninja Gaiden should be on Gamecube as well.

It was a flawed idea, but I don't seeing it hurting Konami nearly as much in the long run as it will hurt Nintendo's attempts to get more big third party exclusives. Does anyone really think RE4 would be GC exclusive if Capcom wasn't bound by a contract? Code Veronica X on PS2 has sold more on PS2 than the new GC RE's have, and that was a port of a Dremcast game. Using sales of a remake on Gamecube to forecast sales of a new installment on PS2 is dimwhitted at best...

 

[AniHawk]

That doesn't really work in all cases. Brute Force has sold horribly (less than 200K to date, despite the fact that oxm called it the next Halo).

...No

XBX BRUTE FORCE 454,693 (Courtesy of Subitai)

 

[Mooreberg]

How many of those were after the price drop that occured extremely fast? Even then 450K is way, way short of a game that was called "the next halo." I doubt MS would ever say that game reached their expectations.

 

[AniHawk]

How many of those were after the price drop that occured extremely fast? Even then 450K is way, way short of a game that was called "the next halo." I doubt MS would ever say that game reached their expectations.

Think it had sold near 400,000 or at least over 300,000 by June 2003's LTD thread.

 

[Solid]

I love this picture.

 

[Mooreberg]

Think it had sold near 400,000 or at least over 300,000 by June 2003's LTD thread.

I think we were both off here. I'm pretty sure it sold poorly at first because the price dropped to $29 pretty fast. The less than 200K I was thinking of was probably full price sales. If somebody has the June 2003 NPD feel free to correct me.

 

[dark10x]

How many of those were after the price drop that occured extremely fast? Even then 450K is way, way short of a game that was called "the next halo." I doubt MS would ever say that game reached their expectations.

It was called the next Halo, but everyone quickly discovered that it was VERY far from BEING the next Halo. Brute Force simply sucks and the public figured that out before it got TOO far...

 

[Panajev2001a]

That doesn't really work in all cases. Brute Force has sold horribly (less than 200K to date, despite the fact that oxm called it the next Halo).

Sales are gonna be dictated by two things

01. Consumer interest
02. Quality

In that order. You can have a game like Rallisport Challenge 2 that is brilliant but sells poorly because at the end of the day, Rally games aren't popular in the US (Sony doesn't even publish the WRC games here).

With games like Socom and ATV, the advertising helped raise interest, and the fact the games are good (I don't see them getting a 6.5 score from anywhere) helped the word of mouth.

Twin Snakes is a remake of a game that didn't need to be remade, and it was released on a system that isn't really associated with the franchise. You can make the argument that the first metal gear games appeared on NES, but by that logic the main Final Fantasy installments and Ninja Gaiden should be on Gamecube as well.

It was a flawed idea, but I don't seeing it hurting Konami nearly as much in the long run as it will hurt Nintendo's attempts to get more big third party exclusives. Does anyone really think RE4 would be GC exclusive if Capcom wasn't bound by a contract? Code Veronica X on PS2 has sold more on PS2 than the new GC RE's have, and that was a port of a Dremcast game. Using sales of a remake on Gamecube to forecast sales of a new installment on PS2 is dimwhitted at best...

What would have happened if MGS: TTS got good TV advertising from Nintendo and Konami ?

I think it would have helped sales.

 

[AirBrian]

What would have happened if MGS: TTS got good TV advertising from Nintendo and Konami ?

I think it would have helped sales.

Definitely. I also think most people assumed it would get an advertising campaign and based high sales predictions off of that. I know I did.

 

[jarrod]

That doesn't really work in all cases.

I didn't say it did, I was only giving examples of where it has.

With games like Socom and ATV, the advertising helped raise interest, and the fact the games are good (I don't see them getting a 6.5 score from anywhere) helped the word of mouth.

Indeed, all the games mentioned are well made products (except probably Driv3r). But you're naieve if you don't think Jak's huge success mainly stems from the year long agressive TV ad campaign SCEA rolled out (though the swift drop to budget pricing helped out too). Advertising is where awareness comes for likely 90% of console owners, and not advertising a casual favorite series like MGS was a fatal mistake.

Twin Snakes is a remake of a game that didn't need to be remade, and it was released on a system that isn't really associated with the franchise.

I'd agree, advertising was just one of many problems stacked against TTS (developer, release timeframe, userbase, etc). Though I'd say advertising is probably the lergest downfall here for a brand of Metal Gear's stature. This game really should've sold regardless.

It was a flawed idea, but I don't seeing it hurting Konami nearly as much in the long run as it will hurt Nintendo's attempts to get more big third party exclusives.

No doubt... Nintendo will likely think twice about funding another Konami project after TTS blew up in their face.

Code Veronica X on PS2 has sold more on PS2 than the new GC RE's have, and that was a port of a Dremcast game.

At full price? That argument swings both ways, the majority of CVX PS2's sales were from the bargin bins... Outbreak on the other hand has performed about in line with REmake/Zero.

I doubt MS would ever say that game reached their expectations.

It's their 7th best selling XBox game... I doubt it's a release they're too dissapointed in.