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[ManaByte]

Where’s the “science” that Governor Newsom continues to preach? :: Fox&Hounds

Listening to the daily COVID-19 virus updates from Governor Newsom and Los Angeles Mayor Garcetti, brings to mind one of the best-known quotes from Clara

www.foxandhoundsdaily.com

The COVID-19 “science” is the actual statistical numbers. The virus is hard on the elderly, with those 65 and older accounting for 80% of the California fatalities. The population age 65 and over represent about 15 percent of the population. It does not make a lot of statistical sense for our elected leadership to be blind to the “real science numbers” and hold the other 85 percent of the population (approximately 34 million) hostage, which results in catastrophic damage to the economy.

Where is the virus “science”? The Center for Disease Control (CDC) data shows California experienced more than 200,000 fatalities per year from 2014 thru 2017 from ALL causes including Heart Disease, Cancer, Stroke, Alzheimer’s Disease, Respiratory, Accidents, Diabetes, Influenza/Pneumonia, Hypertension, and Liver Disease.

In four years from now, before Governor Newsom decides to take a run at the Presidency of the USA, and before Mayor Garcetti decides to take a run at the Governorship of California, they both owe an explanation to the 40 million residents of the state as to why they were oblivious to the CDC science numbers that demonstrate that flu virus fatalities have been constantly less than 4 percent of all fatalities, and continued to use their authority to virtually kill the California economy.

 

[Mobile Suit Gooch]

We have about 25,720 cases with 867 deaths.

Here in NC

 

[diffusionx]

Where’s the “science” that Governor Newsom continues to preach? :: Fox&Hounds

Listening to the daily COVID-19 virus updates from Governor Newsom and Los Angeles Mayor Garcetti, brings to mind one of the best-known quotes from Clara

www.foxandhoundsdaily.com

If one good thing can come from this, it would be that people get so mad about this lockdown that it instantly kills the political ambitions of the lockdown maniacs like Cuomo, Newsom, Garcetti, Whitmer, etc.

 

[ManaByte]

Forget 6 feet, it’s now 30 feet in San Francisco.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Forget 6 feet, it’s now 30 feet in San Francisco.

I'm sure they will enforce this on the hordes of homeless sidewalk-shitters.

 

[Just Sayin]

Where is the virus “science”? The Center for Disease Control (CDC) data shows California experienced more than 200,000 fatalities per year from 2014 thru 2017 from ALL causes including Heart Disease, Cancer, Stroke, Alzheimer’s Disease, Respiratory, Accidents, Diabetes, Influenza/Pneumonia, Hypertension, and Liver Disease.

COVID-19 has killed over 100,000 Americans in 2 1/2 months. Citing the hundreds of thousands who perished from multiple maladies and accidents in a year does nothing to detract from how grave and unprecedented a threat the virus is.

 

[Stouffers]

so Social distancing doesn't work?

We should all be required to wear super magnets around our torsos that repel others if you get within 15 ft.

 

[darkinstinct]

Presented with no comment

The funniest thing about this is a guy that lets women shit on them and eats their poo tweeting about what is normal.

 

[Collz69]

The funniest thing about this is a guy that lets women shit on them and eats their poo tweeting about what is normal.

We’re through the looking glass people!

 

[The Scrivener]

so Social distancing doesn't work?

The government, or all governments, told you it works or face a high fine. Why would they lie to you? Aren't you scared enough yet?

 

[GeorgPrime]

Presented with no comment

Jeah not with 2 meters you have to stay away for 10 meters

 

[diffusionx]

Here is what the experts are saying now.

Healthy people should wear masks only if caring for coronavirus patients, WHO says

The World Health Organization is recommending healthy people, including those who don’t exhibit COVID-19 symptoms, only wear masks when taking care of someone infected with the contagion…

nypost.com

 

[hariseldon]

Here is what the experts are saying now.

Healthy people should wear masks only if caring for coronavirus patients, WHO says

The World Health Organization is recommending healthy people, including those who don’t exhibit COVID-19 symptoms, only wear masks when taking care of someone infected with the contagion…

nypost.com

Yeah they can fuck right off.

 

[cryptoadam]

The WHO has zero credibility.

But the mask stuff is getting annoying. I support wearing one but some people act like its the cure to the virus.

 

[hariseldon]

The WHO has zero credibility.

But the mask stuff is getting annoying. I support wearing one but some people act like its the cure to the virus.

It's not necessarily a cure but consider Asians have long worn masks and have fewer problems than us, then consider that if 60% of the population wear masks that are 60% effective the spread of the virus will halt pretty rapidly - it doesn't have so many places to go in that it might leave person A (not wearing a mask) and get to person B (wearing a mask) but after that it's at a dead end, it's not going to be able to leave person B so easily, where without the mask person B would infect person C who would infect person D. That's how you burn the virus out.

 

[funcojoe]

This thing has completely screwed up my family.

My mom, a 63 year old boomer, disney fanatic has essentially lost her mind over the grandkids.

You have me, 40, my wife 43, and our 7 year old, we are in the belief of following the smartest minds through this, so when my mom asks to have our child over for the night I keep telling her I'm sorry, no. Her husband still works, and in a hospital system, just not comfortable.

My brother 38, his wife 37, their kids 8 and 6. Same feelings as my wife and I, also won't let his kids over.

My sister 35, husband 35, and their 1 year old. My sister is livid about my koms actions of late and has stopped talking to her

My mom is sending me texts, obvious manipulation tactics such as , I want to jump off a bridge, or I'm selling my house, you all can be controlled my thd government.

We live in nj, and she considdrs our democratic governor a power hungry socialist lol.

I dunno, im so sick of just all of this. Sorry for rant.

 

[hariseldon]

This thing has completely screwed up my family.

My mom, a 63 year old boomer, disney fanatic has essentially lost her mind over the grandkids.

You have me, 40, my wife 43, and our 7 year old, we are in the belief of following the smartest minds through this, so when my mom asks to have our child over for the night I keep telling her I'm sorry, no. Her husband still works, and in a hospital system, just not comfortable.

My brother 38, his wife 37, their kids 8 and 6. Same feelings as my wife and I, also won't let his kids over.

My sister 35, husband 35, and their 1 year old. My sister is livid about my koms actions of late and has stopped talking to her

My mom is sending me texts, obvious manipulation tactics such as , I want to jump off a bridge, or I'm selling my house, you all can be controlled my thd government.

We live in nj, and she considdrs our democratic governor a power hungry socialist lol.

I dunno, im so sick of just all of this. Sorry for rant.

Not quite so dramatic but my mum has also gone off the deep end. She was on about tanks on Oxford Street and Bill Gates putting microchips in vaccines - the former was her response to me offering to get her a fuckload of rice and chicken and deliver it to her as at the time food supplies looked dodgy (with my wife in a vulnerable group it would have to be contactless - I was willing to go do that and do a horrendous drive to get it done). She's an absolute fucking idiot sadly, but in the end I had to accept that I can't fix stupid. I did my best, but as she declined the offer I have been supporting people in my local community instead. Ultimately if your mum is coming out with that stuff the tendency was already there, the covid just brought it out.

 

[AltOmega]

I'm going to Wuhan.

 

[funcojoe]

Yea my mom was sending me the conspiracy videos on gates as well lol. I also agree with you, this was there well before covid it just helped pop her bubble she lived in.

I mean it popped all of our bubbles of what was a pretty comfortable existence, but after the initial discomfort of change, humans should be able to manage the risk, assess the situation critically, and make coherent educated decisions on how one should go about their day to avoid getting the virus and live that way until those smarter then us come up with a global plan.

I personally cannot fathom how here in America, we managed to politicize this thing lol, like its almost fucking surreal but thats what happened. From the president on down, its all political nonsense. It's honestly scaring me at this point.

 

[diffusionx]

It's not necessarily a cure but consider Asians have long worn masks and have fewer problems than us, then consider that if 60% of the population wear masks that are 60% effective the spread of the virus will halt pretty rapidly - it doesn't have so many places to go in that it might leave person A (not wearing a mask) and get to person B (wearing a mask) but after that it's at a dead end, it's not going to be able to leave person B so easily, where without the mask person B would infect person C who would infect person D. That's how you burn the virus out.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the practice in Asia is generally to wear a mask if you are feeling sick or worried about getting sick. It's not that 100% of people wear a mask in public, even during flu season. But if you're not feeling well, throw it on as a courtesy.

I certainly support that, but this idea that we all must wear a mask throughout all interactions - it's not something I've ever seen before, in any capacity.

 

[cryptoadam]

It's not necessarily a cure but consider Asians have long worn masks and have fewer problems than us, then consider that if 60% of the population wear masks that are 60% effective the spread of the virus will halt pretty rapidly - it doesn't have so many places to go in that it might leave person A (not wearing a mask) and get to person B (wearing a mask) but after that it's at a dead end, it's not going to be able to leave person B so easily, where without the mask person B would infect person C who would infect person D. That's how you burn the virus out.

I dont disagree i support masks. Im just getting annoyed at people who act like if you dont wear a maks your a murderer and its the crime of the century.

I support masks but there is some debate on them and i dont like the shaming and BS and then the moral superiority shown by people over the mask issue.

 

[BigBooper]

It's funny to complain about this being political when the advice you follow only comes from one political party; even ignoring the advice of the :ahem: "experts" at the WHO.

 

[Jooxed]

And with Corona its more than typically its like to the power of 100.

In Montreal under 50=20 dead
Over 80 = 2000

I would say thats a lot more than old people dying typically more than young people.

I think if you add in all the asymptomatic people then the IFR (not CFR) for the elderly probably is around 4%, if you are above 80 its probably higher. I would say from about 65 and on the average would come out to between 1% and 5%.

Add in that 90-99% of deaths all have a pre exsisting condition and even for the healthy young population the IFR is way below .5%.

Once more studies come out the IFR outside of a nursing home even for the sick and old is probably going to be magnitudes lower than those inside nursing home.

At least outside the USA. I think in the USA you guys have a lot of fatties and unhealthy people skewing the data in the 50-70 age range where there are probably more deaths.

80% of the deaths coming from 16% of the population.

Things start ramping up once you get to the 55 age group, but thats odd of place compared to the rest of the world, but welp fatties.

I am going to be quite honest this is the weirdest virus I have ever seen. I am working in a care home where this is going through right now MOST of the people that have it are asymptomatic. We have had 4 deaths in the resident's


3 Had COPD and CHF
1 refused to use her oxygen when she was told to

I work as the Director of Dining and 4 of my staff members had had it and we work in a very small kitchen. The Dietary Supervisor has had it and she shares her office with me and I am surprised I didn't get it we talk in the office with our masks off etc.

1 of my girls is in her 50's and overweight. No issues
1 of my girls is in her late 50's asthma breast cancer survivor also no issues

The other two folks who had it were in their 50's as well but healthier and asymptomatic. I think one of them was run down for about a day. They all returned to work this week. Out of 30 cases so far in the building only one had to be hooked up to a ventilator and unfortunately he was one that passed away.

 

[WhiskeyDiver]

Presented with no comment

Those proportions don't make sense. I'm being serious. It looks like the human part of a centaur was slapped on the legs of a wimpy boy. The fuck is going on here?

 

[TheGreatLeon]

I’d say all bets are off on coronavirus after the terrorist attacks in Minneapolis, Louisville, Columbus, and New York last night.

Not much social distancing going on there.

 

[diffusionx]

It's funny to complain about this being political when the advice you follow only comes from one political party; even ignoring the advice of the :ahem: "experts" at the WHO.

Obviously it's political and has been for a while; but I'm not sure what your point is.

The experts at the CDC say I should wear a mask all the time.
The experts at the WHO say I shouldn't wear a mask all the time.

Obviously both can't be right.

 

[funcojoe]

It's funny to complain about this being political when the advice you follow only comes from one political party; even ignoring the advice of the :ahem: "experts" at the WHO.

I have been a republican my whole life, yet I never have taken the politicized view on this. For me it transcends politics. Im not reading or educating myself on anything other then every ounce of info thats come out since early Jan. Ive made up my own mind in regsrds to what the consequences are.

My mother blindly follows trumps rhetoric, which im sorry to say is highly political and based in the interests of the corporations, the market, and whoever else it benefits that are of importance to the system.

The dems imo lack a voice, a message. Thry also aren't doing much in regards to steer the population through this.

So if your comment was directed towards me, no I don't follow any line but the one I conclude after each days reading of everything available.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

i found this pretty interesting. aside from the idiotic questions from reporters, it gives some insight into what congress is trying to do with the information they have. odd how Nancy Pelosi doesn't want us to look into China or the source of all this because "it's irrelevant".

 

[hariseldon]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the practice in Asia is generally to wear a mask if you are feeling sick or worried about getting sick. It's not that 100% of people wear a mask in public, even during flu season. But if you're not feeling well, throw it on as a courtesy.

I certainly support that, but this idea that we all must wear a mask throughout all interactions - it's not something I've ever seen before, in any capacity.

I can't speak with 100% certainty but certainly when I lived in Asia mask usage in big cities was pretty high (lower out in the sticks). At the time I thought it was because of pollution (maybe it was). I would imagine though that with a lot of people having masks, they will automatically put them on when a nasty pandemic hits, especially with their previous experience of Chinese exports.

I dont disagree i support masks. Im just getting annoyed at people who act like if you dont wear a maks your a murderer and its the crime of the century.

I support masks but there is some debate on them and i dont like the shaming and BS and then the moral superiority shown by people over the mask issue.

We don't need everyone to wear them certainly, the more the better, but we can get by as long as a decent number do it. I think that can probably be done without compulsion, and without the need for incivility.

 

[All Hail C-Webb]

Here is what the experts are saying now.

Healthy people should wear masks only if caring for coronavirus patients, WHO says

The World Health Organization is recommending healthy people, including those who don’t exhibit COVID-19 symptoms, only wear masks when taking care of someone infected with the contagion…

nypost.com

The NY Post is trash.
The videos are from February and March. These aren't new guidelines from the WHO.

 

[funcojoe]

I think the question is for alot of mssk detractors is, is it unconstitutional to enforce the wearing of a mask.

Personally I have no idea. I have no problem wearing a mask, here in nj its mandatory. I never questioned the authority of it though as I do believe it dampens the spread.

 

[All Hail C-Webb]

I think the question is for alot of mssk detractors is, is it unconstitutional to enforce the wearing of a mask.

Personally I have no idea. I have no problem wearing a mask, here in nj its mandatory. I never questioned the authority of it though as I do believe it dampens the spread.

We're required to wear pants in public.
People wanted to go to war because Janet Jackson didn't wear a nipple covering.
Many stores have a "no shirt, no shoes, no service" sign.

Why weren't these idiots standing up and complaining before?

 

[JORMBO]

Those proportions don't make sense. I'm being serious. It looks like the human part of a centaur was slapped on the legs of a wimpy boy. The fuck is going on here?

This is what happens when one person decides to be all the different made up genders at the same time.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

We're required to wear pants in public.

this is to hide genitals. nobody has genitals on their face. additionally wearing pants doesn't constrict your breathing.

People wanted to go to war because Janet Jackson didn't wear a nipple covering.

a company was fined by another company. LOL @ "people wanted to go to war"

Many stores have a "no shirt, no shoes, no service" sign.

yes if you enter a store you follow their guidelines. mandatory masks are not about whether you are entering a store or not, but enforcing it all the time. walking on the street. out in the park. anywhere in public. not just "in stores"

I think the question is for alot of mssk detractors is, is it unconstitutional to enforce the wearing of a mask.

otm. yes this is a free country we do not like being told to do things. considering that EVEN THE EXPERTS DONT KNOW HOW EFFECTIVE THIS IS then i think skepticism is fine and natural.

 

[funcojoe]

That's why personally I have alot of problems with the constitution , I understand the original values but I do think it should be rewritten every 100 or so years, or when needed. Were a baby civilization for fucks sake, its asinine to live out advancement because of the rules written in essence an infant civilization compared to one now close to 300 years later.

I could understand if we were a civilization that was hundreds of thousands, even millions of years old hanfing down all those years of learning to a new civilization and saying ok let's follow their rules they advanced well beyond what looks like we will lol.

The whole thing is weird imo.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

yeah im not a fan of rewriting the constitution so that the government can force us to wear masks based on incomplete data.

Were a baby civilization for fucks sake

we're babies at Covid. the science is baby science. this is why it's called a NOVEL virus. it's new. we DONT know what works or not.

that's the funny thing people keep ignoring. it's not like we know all about this virus and how to fight it and have all this established science based on it. we don't! all of the world's most brilliant scientists are babies when it comes to COVID. the mask stuff is based on incomplete information and the experts don't even know for sure and keep changing their minds.

LOL complaining that people don't want to listen to experts who haven't actually figured it out themselves.

 

[funcojoe]

Person A hss the virus but Asymptomatic.

Person B has no virus.

Both walk into office setting , its their choice to wear a mask.

Is person a wrong for not wearing a mask or person b wrong for complaining?


What does office do?

Install mask required agreement.

Person a feels like this is illegal.
Person b feels safer and more protected.


Whos right whos wrong?

 

[Mobile Suit Gooch]

I know I'm late but, I heard on Steve Crowder that the guy beating up that old guy in the nursing home; was sent there because he was tested positive for Covid-19.

That Whitmer...

 

[All Hail C-Webb]

this is to hide genitals. nobody has genitals on their face. additionally wearing pants doesn't constrict your breathing.

Why does the government have the right to dictate what part of my body can be showing? I can show my nipples but my girl can't (but in NY she can), and neither can show our asses?

a company was fined by another company. LOL @ "people wanted to go to war"

The internet, and conservative media were full of outrage.

yes if you enter a store. mandatory masks are not about whether you are entering a store or not, but enforcing it all the time.

Most of the idiots making issues and starting conflicts are trying to enter, or already inside places of business.

yes this is a free country we do not like being told to do things. considering that EVEN THE EXPERTS DONT KNOW HOW EFFECTIVE THIS IS then i think skepticism is fine and natural.

Masks make a big difference, all of the data supports that.
We are told what to do many times throughout our day, we all have rules we must follow. This is just political stupidity.

Person A hss the virus but Asymptomatic.

Person B has no virus.

Both walk into office setting , its their choice to wear a mask.

Is person a wrong for not wearing a mask or person b wrong for complaining?


What does office do?

Install mask required agreement.

Person a feels like this is illegal.
Person b feels safer and more protected.


Whos right whos wrong?

It's tough shit for person A. If person A wants to work at the Company, then he must follow the company rules and guidelines. I'm sure there are many rules the company makes him follow already.
Person A should be fired for being a moron if he doesn't know this.

 

[funcojoe]

yeah im not a fan of rewriting the constitution so that the government can force us to wear masks based on incomplete data.

we're babies at Covid. the science is baby science. this is why it's called a NOVEL virus. it's new. we DONT know what works or not.

that's the funny thing people keep ignoring. it's not like we know all about this virus and how to fight it and have all this established science based on it. we don't! all of the world's most brilliant scientists are babies when it comes to COVID. the mask stuff is based on incomplete information and the experts don't even know for sure and keep changing their minds.

LOL complaining that people don't want to listen to experts who haven't actually figured it out themselves.

I would argue just knowing its kills. Spreads human to human pretty easily is more then enough information?

As for the legality of imposing restrictions, well that is beyond anyone's answer without a complete understanding of the constitution, and your state laws.

I feel as if one side looks at the other as sheep, where as the other looks at the other side as ignorant.

I feel both are far from the truth. Both are being completely misunderstood, and pitted against each other politically.

 

[hariseldon]

That's why personally I have alot of problems with the constitution , I understand the original values but I do think it should be rewritten every 100 or so years, or when needed. Were a baby civilization for fucks sake, its asinine to live out advancement because of the rules written in essence an infant civilization compared to one now close to 300 years later.

I could understand if we were a civilization that was hundreds of thousands, even millions of years old hanfing down all those years of learning to a new civilization and saying ok let's follow their rules they advanced well beyond what looks like we will lol.

The whole thing is weird imo.

So let's imagine the 100 years was up today - how well do you think the update to the constitution would go? Would there be a cat in hell's chance of it getting through both houses and whatever additional branches of legislature it needs to?

 

[prag16]

This thing has completely screwed up my family.

My mom, a 63 year old boomer, disney fanatic has essentially lost her mind over the grandkids.

You have me, 40, my wife 43, and our 7 year old, we are in the belief of following the smartest minds through this, so when my mom asks to have our child over for the night I keep telling her I'm sorry, no. Her husband still works, and in a hospital system, just not comfortable.

My brother 38, his wife 37, their kids 8 and 6. Same feelings as my wife and I, also won't let his kids over.

My sister 35, husband 35, and their 1 year old. My sister is livid about my koms actions of late and has stopped talking to her

My mom is sending me texts, obvious manipulation tactics such as , I want to jump off a bridge, or I'm selling my house, you all can be controlled my thd government.

We live in nj, and she considdrs our democratic governor a power hungry socialist lol.

I dunno, im so sick of just all of this. Sorry for rant.

Let the woman see her grandchildren for christ's sake. Maybe not a sleep over, but they can fucking play outside for an hour or something. My mother is completely sane, and not wholly unconcerned about COVID. But I guarantee she'd be losing her shit if she hadn't seen my kids in 10 weeks, living just 10 minutes away.

 

[funcojoe]

So let's imagine the 100 years was up today - how well do you think the update to the constitution would go? Would there be a cat in hell's chance of it getting through both houses and whatever additional branches of legislature it needs to?

You're absolutely right. Which leads me down the rabbit hole of how is this all fixed lol.

 

[Nymphae]

How are asymptomatic people spreading it? Didn't the CDC drastically revise the data for how long it stays on various surfaces, basically saying, it doesn't? And if I'm asymptomatic, this would mean no cough droplets right?

CDC Advice On Surface Spread Of COVID-19 'Has Not Changed,' Agency Says

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention says a headline change on its website seemed to trigger news reports saying its guidelines have changed.

www.npr.org

Last month, the page listed "Spread from contact with contaminated surfaces and objects" under its own subheading, just below a similar subhead on "Person-to-person spread."

The page now lists surfaces and objects in a new subsection titled "The virus does not spread easily in other ways."

"Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 to persons from surfaces contaminated with the virus has not been documented,"

But it adds, "Current evidence suggests that SARS-CoV-2 may remain viable for hours to days on surfaces made from a variety of materials."

So which is it? And how do asymptomatic people spread it?

 

[funcojoe]

Let the woman see her grandchildren for christ's sake. Maybe not a sleep over, but they can fucking play outside for an hour or something. My mother is completely sane, and not wholly unconcerned about COVID. But I guarantee she'd be losing her shit if she hadn't seen my kids in 10 weeks, living just 10 minutes away.

I have, shes had one sleepover during lockdown, im not completely unreasonable. Hes allowed to have day visits. My problem was with allowing my kid with my brothers intermixed at the same time.

 

[funcojoe]

How are asymptomatic people spreading it? Didn't the CDC drastically revise the data for how long it stays on various surfaces, basically saying, it doesn't? And if I'm asymptomatic, this would mean no cough droplets right?

CDC Advice On Surface Spread Of COVID-19 'Has Not Changed,' Agency Says

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention says a headline change on its website seemed to trigger news reports saying its guidelines have changed.

www.npr.org

So which is it? And how do asymptomatic people spread it?

Very good question.

 

[hariseldon]

You're absolutely right. Which leads me down the rabbit hole of how is this all fixed lol.

It wasn't always thus of course - I'd wager up til around the Clinton years it could have been done, but that's where things started getting super-partisan I think (admittedly my knowledge of these things is limited but I don't recall much of the current problems in Bush v1 or Reagan years but I'm a Brit so I know nothing). Obviously there was always disagreement but I think that's when you started to see one party acting to simply block all legislation and now we have a situation where whoever is in opposition will simply go all out to block everything even if it's good, which is why we've seen government shutdowns etc. I'd be curious to know what caused the shift - though I think the answer would likely be different according to the political affiliation of the speaker.

 

[prag16]

I have, shes had one sleepover during lockdown, im not completely unreasonable. Hes allowed to have day visits. My problem was with allowing my kid with my brothers intermixed at the same time.

Ha, gotcha, I'll put my pitchfork away.

 

[hariseldon]

I have, shes had one sleepover during lockdown, im not completely unreasonable. Hes allowed to have day visits. My problem was with allowing my kid with my brothers intermixed at the same time.

Pretty reasonable. The thing is that the wider the 'circle of trust', the more chance of someone within that circle being a dick and breaking the rules and going and getting covid and spreading it to the rest of the circle. Now you're ok, as are your kids, you're not particularly at risk. Your mum however is the one at risk, but if she's willing to take that risk that's on her (though she should also be mindful of your desire not to be responsible for killilng her). The problem however is if any of that circle has contact outside the circle and it gets to someone vulnerable who didn't consent to this arrangement. It's a complicated business really.

 

[funcojoe]

Yea American politics has been a joke for awhile now. Definitely not my most informative subject but something Definitely happened after Clinton.

I'm sure there's alot of current day political scholars that could explain it but the thing thst jumps out to me is the internet.

It gave more of a voice to the politicians and the people, and as we all know from gaming , giving the populace the technology doesn't necessarily mean they're going to use it for good lol.