Mask Efficacy |OT| Wuhan!! Got You All In Check
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Plague Doctor
Member
Total sense. The problem is people lost their goddamn minds and nuance is lost. You either go full force in either direction. Sensible examination and measured responses is muted.
Honestly, you just need to social distance, wear masks where it's crowded (mainly cause you may be infectious and don't know it - that's all masks help), quarantine the vulnerable, and make sure the hospitals are doing fine.
Life could and should attempt to go back to normal for the vast majority with these things in mind. But we politicized this so it's gonzo season.
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DeepBreath87
Banned
And the problem with American politics in a nutshell right here.
Any person who deliberately stands right behind another person during this pandemic is an asshole.
DeepBreath87
Banned
I agree with you sort of. Its good to give people their space whenever feasible. Just don't be that asshole walking around with a yardstick. Be courteous when asking for your space the same as you'd want some to be courteous in giving it to you. Too many people act like jerks when they think someone is too close and that usually ends badly.
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rykomatsu
Member
All I can say is, if you don't like the risk human behavior poses, don't leave your home. Doesn't really matter whether the person is an asshole or not.
12Goblins
Lil’ Gobbie
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cryptoadam
Banned
Look maybe the WHO is good for fighting diseases in 3rd world countries or whatever, but they sure as hell screwed up with this pandemic. There opinions also change week to week so I have little faith in what they say today. Maybe they are updating with new information but then might as well ignore them since they will constantly be updating.
diffusionx
Gold Member
95% of people around here are wearing a mask outside, and yea, what are the chances of getting COVID walking outside in the fresh air? Are you really going to get COVID just by walking past someone 2 feet away? Like come on.
Are we even definitively sure the mask actually prevents transmission? It makes intuitive sense, but it's exactly the opposite of what they were saying before, and I remember reading a lot about how you need a certain type of mask or whatever to stop this particular virus.
Chittagong
Gold Member
Can't deny it, that was a strong propaganda video. It did skip on the China cheerleading and no human transmission part but generally, not bad.
It is crazy how quickly everything blew up between late Feb and mid March
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hariseldon
Unconfirmed Member
I wear a mask when I leave my property to go somewhere people may be. To me that is the logical way to approach things.
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hariseldon
Unconfirmed Member
cryptoadam
Banned
If your traveling alone and in a car or bike i dont think its needed but its a good gesture and example. Since the purpose is to protect others if no one is around you the mask isnt doing anything.
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hariseldon
Unconfirmed Member
Agree that if you're alone in a car there's no point but you should have a mask with you just in case you need to get out of the car where people are present.
cryptoadam
Banned
Yup i have a mask with me whenevr i go out and once i am in an area with people i will wear the mask out of respect for others.
Wearing a mask and washing hands are a fine trade off not to have lock downs.
RULES FOR THEE! The Michigan Tyrant wanted to get her boat out on the water before Memorial Day, right after extending the lockdown until mid-June.
www.foxnews.com
Michigan Gov. Whitmer caught in Memorial Day lockdown controversy over husband's reported boat request
Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer faced backlash from Republican lawmakers after a reported request from her husband to get the family's boat out on the water before Memorial Day weekend -- far from their home in Lansing.
www.foxnews.com
prag16
Banned
The idea as far as I remember was generally CLOSE and SUSTAINED contact. A few virus particles aren't going to do anything, it's more about building up the viral load from what I had read earlier on in this debacle, which again generally requies CLOSE and SUSTAINED contact. So it seems to me that the chances of getting it strictly from walking by someone on a sidewalk is probably around the odds of getting struck by lightning.
The masks probably inhibit spread to some degree in certain situations. I'm definitely not convinced yet that it's enough to warrant blanket mask mandates, but I digress.
To me the better question is whether asymptomatic spread is actually even a thing, at least anywhere near to the degree we think it is. We have studies like this now: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7219423/
Yes it is too narrow to reach any sweeping conclusions, however I'd like to see a lot more investigation. I have seen a few studies that ostensibly "prove" asymptomatic transmission, but the major flaw at last in the ones I have read is that they all seem to rely on people self reporting their status. Putting stock in the results requires trust that the 'spreaders' are being honest about whether or not they had symptoms yet. Who wants to admit "well yeah I had a cough and a fever, but the cough wasn't too bad and I lowered the fever with Tylenol so that I could still attend that meeting or go to that party". It's much easier to say "no yeah I wasn't sick yet". It doesn't take everyone being dishonest to skew the results of a study like this, only a portion.
xellos2099alpha
Member
Asymptomatic transmission is 100% true. My relative know someone from old folks home that die from covid 19 transmiited by the daughter who came to visit from New York last month ago. The daughter show zero symptom.
The Scrivener
Member
I love the way they have to use 3 globes to represent the whole world.
Globalists do such funny things.
jadedm17
Member
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hariseldon
Unconfirmed Member
Dominic Cummings' statement explaining his lockdown trip to Durham - full text
Full transcript of statement given by PM's senior aide in Downing Street rose garden
www.independent.co.uk
Honestly with the press encouraging the more rabid elements of the public already radicalised over Brexit to abuse him on the basis of spurious allegations of indifference to deaths due to covid, with a risk of having nobody available to look after my kid with a sick wife, sick prime minister and almost certain covid, I'd have done the exact same thing if I was fortunate enough to have those facilities available.
It's absolutely not in the same category as going to your second home for shits and giggles, not the same as having a married woman come round for sex, it's a wholly different circumstance and the press are behaving disgracefully, out for blood because they're used to demanding sackings and getting them. The vicious bullies of the press can quite frankly go fuck themselves.
Further, the emotional bullshit being pedalled, that person x made y sacrifice so why can't he? With daily threats from people who know where you live, escape becomes necessary (and look how the press are hanging around harassing his parents now that's out) - nobody was at risk of infection. People have had to miss funerals because of the risk of multiple households coming together, which risked spread. People haven't been able to go to hospital with relatives to minimise the number of potential infected people in that space because of the cross-household contact. People have been told not to go to 2nd homes because if they did, en masse, it would collapse healthcare systems in areas not designed for larger populations. With exceptions in the rules for sick children, it is disgraceful that the media and the FBPE brigade on Twitter are dredging up these comparisons.
I hope that Boris has the balls to stand up to the press as he did with Priti Patel, to wean them off the idea that they can get people to resign for any misdemeanor and reserve it for serious offences. Cancel culture started with the press (they've been demanding resignations from people for years, often getting them, way before Twitter was a thing), is rampant in leftist Twitter, and needs to be itself cancelled.
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Starlight Lotice
Member
Dominic Cummings' statement explaining his lockdown trip to Durham - full text
Full transcript of statement given by PM's senior aide in Downing Street rose garden
Honestly with the press encouraging the more rabid elements of the public already radicalised over Brexit to abuse him on the basis of spurious allegations of indifference to deaths due to covid, with a risk of having nobody available to look after my kid with a sick wife, sick prime minister and almost certain covid, I'd have done the exact same thing if I was fortunate enough to have those facilities available.
It's absolutely not in the same category as going to your second home for shits and giggles, not the same as having a married woman come round for sex, it's a wholly different circumstance and the press are behaving disgracefully, out for blood because they're used to demanding sackings and getting them. The vicious bullies of the press can quite frankly go fuck themselves.
Further, the emotional bullshit being pedalled, that person x made y sacrifice so why can't he? With daily threats from people who know where you live, escape becomes necessary (and look how the press are hanging around harassing his parents now that's out) - nobody was at risk of infection. People have had to miss funerals because of the risk of multiple households coming together, which risked spread. People haven't been able to go to hospital with relatives to minimise the number of potential infected people in that space because of the cross-household contact. People have been told not to go to 2nd homes because if they did, en masse, it would collapse healthcare systems in areas not designed for larger populations. With exceptions in the rules for sick children, it is disgraceful that the media and the FBPE brigade on Twitter are dredging up these comparisons.
I hope that Boris has the balls to stand up to the press as he did with Priti Patel, to wean them off the idea that they can get people to resign for any misdemeanor and reserve it for serious offences. Cancel culture started with the press (they've been demanding resignations from people for years, often getting them, way before Twitter was a thing), is rampant in leftist Twitter, and needs to be itself cancelled.
Getting sicck of people calling for him to go myself but I think he will walk under pressure from the Government to be honest.
He did a stupid thing, but at the same time he didn't crowd around places like the idiots that roam around the beaches like they did 2 weeks ago (and now there is a spike of cases in the SW England).
People just want to lash out because they feel the Government aren't listening to their own rules when people for weeks have been flouting them and my brother gets pissed off at people clapping for the NHS when it is those same people who don't socially distance at his retailer.
I hope Cummings doesn't stand down but I sadly feel that he might have to under the pressure of the other Tories, Labour and even some of the Civil Service that Tweeted that he should go.
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hariseldon
Unconfirmed Member
Tbh you're not wrong, but I do honestly hope that Boris can pull it off - like Trump he's a little bit out of the ordinary. He managed it with Priti Patel when honestly the odds of her survival were overwhelmingly negative, so fingers crossed.
Starlight Lotice
Member
What happened with her anyway? She apparently bullied someone?
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hariseldon
Unconfirmed Member
Something like that but it seems they had an inquiry and decided nothing needed to be done. In truth I suspect she is probably quite 'plain-speaking' and perhaps people don't like that, but sometimes you have to to get shit done. Certainly I don't mince words at work - if people fuck up you have to make damn sure they don't do it again.
Starlight Lotice
Member
Fair enough there, but I do think it depends on the person as to whether they take it to heart or not and are committed to trying their best.
And it seems that an MP has signed over him not resigning, which I honestly don't get. Their job is not untenable just because someone else did something.
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hariseldon
Unconfirmed Member
I do of course adjust for person, but for instance the company owner is the kind of guy who will be swearing at someone on the phone and you'll hear it from several desks away, and while others take it I fire back, with the result that I get what I need far more often than others do. On the other hand, with our accounts ladies I'll typically charm them to get what needs to be done done. My devs however have thick skins and I encourage open honesty about fuckups and we work together to resolve them, but if it's something that fucks up my day I will let them know how I feel about it.
As for the resignation, honestly that's just someone being a spineless weaselly cunt and I doubt that exceedingly junior chap is going to have much of a career under Boris now.
Starlight Lotice
Member
Sounds like you take the right approach dependant on person. Sadly my old firm was not like that and had Managers mostly being dicks and never taking the heat. There was one I respected for doing the same as you and took the approach differently and I always helped him out however I could.
Probably. I know he is a Scottish MP so likely from the SNP side.
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hariseldon
Unconfirmed Member
Sounds like you take the right approach dependant on person. Sadly my old firm was not like that and had Managers mostly being dicks and never taking the heat. There was one I respected for doing the same as you and took the approach differently and I always helped him out however I could.
Probably. I know he is a Scottish MP so likely from the SNP side.
To be clear - I do also set an example by fessing up to my own fuckups and apologising if they fuck up someone's day, I also take the time to ensure that said fuckup is rectified, by me, in full. To my shame I have made someone cry before - it wasn't however about my being rude to them but rather I hadn't filled her tea sufficiently. Given the risk of spilling hot tea over myself as I walked from kitchen to desks I tended to play it safe and leave a bit of gap between cup top and beverage, but she deemed this to be too much and burst into tears. I concluded at that point that she was mad and that there's no point trying to cater to such madness.
Faenrir
Member
Nah, what are the chances that a girl jerks him off ? He has more chance catching covid, imo.
Laughing at someone because he wears a masks when going outside is hands down one of the most pathetic shit i've read here. And i've read a lot of stupid shit in here.
Faenrir
Member
Nymphae
Banned
RULES FOR THEE! The Michigan Tyrant wanted to get her boat out on the water before Memorial Day, right after extending the lockdown until mid-June.
Michigan Gov. Whitmer caught in Memorial Day lockdown controversy over husband's reported boat request
Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer faced backlash from Republican lawmakers after a reported request from her husband to get the family's boat out on the water before Memorial Day weekend -- far from their home in Lansing.
Sure come by and I'll spit in your face before giving you the bad news.
These people are so ridiculous.
Nothing to do with the mask...i just assume most neogaf users don't get laid.
Ah, pardon my mistake then
Chaplain
Member
We will soon find out how fast Covid-19 spreads due to most people not wearing N-95 masks while working in closed confined spaces.
A Death Rate of 0,1 or 0,2 Would mean that 30 or 15 Million people in New York are already infected. Not pretty Realistic.
Last thing i read, is that max 20% ( Which is heavily skewed i guess ), but even then, let's take the 20%. Meaning about 4 Million people got infected in New York. 30K died.
Math: 4.000.000/30.000 * 100 = 0,7%
0,4 - 0,7 is what many experts said for a long time.
Still many Antobody tests done in europe suggest, that the number is a lot lower.
Besides all that, using a low Death Rate to frame the diseaase as "not so bad", is pretty illogilcal when the disease spreads like shit. What makes COVID dangerous is the fact that it spreads like nothing we have seen until now. Combine that with a comparatively high death rate and you get this mess.
Last thing i read, is that max 20% ( Which is heavily skewed i guess ), but even then, let's take the 20%. Meaning about 4 Million people got infected in New York. 30K died.
Math: 4.000.000/30.000 * 100 = 0,7%
0,4 - 0,7 is what many experts said for a long time.
Still many Antobody tests done in europe suggest, that the number is a lot lower.
Besides all that, using a low Death Rate to frame the diseaase as "not so bad", is pretty illogilcal when the disease spreads like shit. What makes COVID dangerous is the fact that it spreads like nothing we have seen until now. Combine that with a comparatively high death rate and you get this mess.
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cryptoadam
Banned
Israeli scientists: Gaucher’s disease drugs effective against coronavirus
Scientists found that antiviral treatment using both drugs led to a significant reduction in the replication capacity of the coronavirus.
m.jpost.com
diffusionx
Gold Member
Well, the CDC believes, when the dust is settled, the total death rate is going to be 0.26%. It is Scenario 5 in the linked page, the "best estimate." They are also assuming asymptomatic people are as infectious as symptomatic, and as we have seen recently, that may not be the case.
So this is what "the experts" and "the science" currently believes right now. Yet we are continuing with a ridiculous lockdown that was predicated on the belief that the death rate was ~10% across all age groups, not 0.26% with a massive skew towards old ages.
I truly believe a year from now, we will be looking at this lengthy lockdown, which destroyed the economy, destroyed the future earnings for a generation, led to a massive mental health crisis, increased suicides, and led to a whole host of illnesses caused by undiagnosed and untreated non-COVID illnesses, as one of the biggest and most foolish mistakes ever done by government.
So this is what "the experts" and "the science" currently believes right now. Yet we are continuing with a ridiculous lockdown that was predicated on the belief that the death rate was ~10% across all age groups, not 0.26% with a massive skew towards old ages.
I truly believe a year from now, we will be looking at this lengthy lockdown, which destroyed the economy, destroyed the future earnings for a generation, led to a massive mental health crisis, increased suicides, and led to a whole host of illnesses caused by undiagnosed and untreated non-COVID illnesses, as one of the biggest and most foolish mistakes ever done by government.
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cryptoadam
Banned
The death rate is not the same for older people as younger people. The one good thing about CV is its death rate is wildly different between age groups.
In Mass they say they have 900K infected. Out of those 70 were under the age of 50. 80+ had like 3600 deatsh. Can you really say both had a .4 death rate?
cryptoadam
Banned
Well, the CDC believes, when the dust is settled, the total death rate is going to be 0.26%. It is Scenario 5 in the linked page, the "best estimate." They are also assuming asymptomatic people are as infectious as symptomatic, and as we have seen recently, that may not be the case.
So this is what "the experts" and "the science" currently believes right now. Yet we are continuing with a ridiculous lockdown that was predicated on the belief that the death rate was ~10% across all age groups, not 0.26% with a massive skew towards old ages.
I truly believe a year from now, we will be looking at this lengthy lockdown, which destroyed the economy, destroyed the future earnings for a generation, led to a massive mental health crisis, increased suicides, and led to a whole host of illnesses caused by undiagnosed and untreated non-COVID illnesses, as one of the biggest and most foolish mistakes ever done by government.
There will be books written about it.
But here is what i think happened.
Everyone was saying its just the flu whatever its not that bad.
Then Trump comes out ans says its the flu the death rate is lower than 1% etc...
So since everyone has TDS they flipped and did a 180 and had to go hard against Trump. So this all of a sudden became the black plague and the only choice was forever lockdown.
So even though Trump was just saying what the media and expers were saying at the time becuase he said it now the opposite is true.
And then we got into this situtation.
diffusionx
Gold Member
Every once in a while I go on CNN.com and read about what not to believe. Now, about a month ago, I read a twitter feed from some guy who said that the media was using camera tricks to make public places look more crowded than they actually are. What was cited was a "packed beach" scene from Jacksonville Florida (and by the way, a month out, Florida did not have a spike in cases, which the media never talked about).
So today I go on CNN's front page and see this picture, that makes the boardwalk look like Hong Kong.
Obviously this is framed as a justification for the endless lockdown from our Governor Mommys. It is obviously deception and obviously a falsehood, but they are pushing a story, to drive fear and hysteria. Maybe it is TDS, maybe it is because it's great for clicks, but this dishonesty has real-world consequences we are living with.
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Well, the CDC believes, when the dust is settled, the total death rate is going to be 0.26%. It is Scenario 5 in the linked page, the "best estimate." They are also assuming asymptomatic people are as infectious as symptomatic, and as we have seen recently, that may not be the case.
So this is what "the experts" and "the science" currently believes right now. Yet we are continuing with a ridiculous lockdown that was predicated on the belief that the death rate was ~10% across all age groups, not 0.26% with a massive skew towards old ages.
I truly believe a year from now, we will be looking at this lengthy lockdown, which destroyed the economy, destroyed the future earnings for a generation, led to a massive mental health crisis, increased suicides, and led to a whole host of illnesses caused by undiagnosed and untreated non-COVID illnesses, as one of the biggest and most foolish mistakes ever done by government.
Again, this is not about the Death Rate, but about the R0. A disease like MERS had a Death rate of 40% but a really really small R0. Noone would say that MERS was more dangerous to humanity than COVID.
If i have one diseas that infects 1000 People in one week and kills 5% of them, i've got 50 Deaths. Second disease infects 10.000 in one week and "only" 0,1% of them die. That's still 100 Death.
You can have a Death Rate of 0,1%, if whole US People you would have 350K Deaths. Since it's robably at least 3 Times higher, you'd have 1 Million Deaths.
Also to quote your last post, look at Sweden. They did not go into Lockdown and the situation is dire there. Many people are questioning the decision, even leading swedish virologists.
Nevertheless, Humanity survived 2 World Wars including one that spanned several years and destroyed many countries. We recovered from that pretty well i'd say. If everything turns into shit because we had to close down things for 1 Month, i'm not sure we live in better times than 70 years ago.
Of course younger people have a lower CFR, but older people have a much higher. 0,4 Percent is the Average. Old people have a much higher CFR.
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diffusionx
Gold Member
So how long do you think this lockdown should last then? The consequences I stated cannot just be brushed off. They are real, and they affected the bulk of the population a lot more than a 0.05% mortality rate (from the CDC page, people <50). Do these consequences matter at all?
Look, you can go back to before the lockdowns, all the powers that be were saying, hey eventually everyone is going to get this virus. They said that because it is a virus. Yes the virus spreads, it may or may not spread quickly. The fear was that hospitals would collapse with a flood of patients and be unable to treat anybody. But just because we went into lockdowns, doesn't mean that reality of the virus changed. The most likely outcome of all this in the end is that we all get it. The lockdown is just prolonging the misery, and while it is doing so, taking down our economy and our ability to have a functioning healthcare system. This must be factored into a rational (as opposed to fear-driven) cost-benefit analysis of this lockdown.
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How do you know that? I'm not saying that there are no consequences. But why is it worse than people dying? If The economy isn't strong enough to last 1 Month on hold, we've build a shitty World to begin with.
Lockdowns shouldn't last. In Fact, if you do it right, you don't even have to lock down at all. Most European states are already in Phase 2 and have no Lockdowns anymore. They can do that, because they are having really low numbers for weeks now. Germany removed the Lockdowns about 3 Weeks ago and numbers are going down steadily. Why? Because the numbers are managablle. With Rules and Contact Tracing you can solve this without needing Lockdowns.
No it's not. As i said, when you reach a point where you can contact Trace and back to mitigation again, you can go through this without needing everyone to get this. Again, look at european countries. Most of them lifted Lockdowns weeks ago and numbers are still declining/stable.
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diffusionx
Gold Member
The economy is made up of a lot of people doing stuff, selling stuff, and building stuff. if nobody is building stuff, and nobody is doing stuff, and nobody is selling stuff, we have no economy. That is what we are seeing now. And we aren't talking about one month, we are one week 10 or 11 of this shit.
Asking "why is it worse than people dying" is like me asking why we still have cars when we have tens of thousands of car accident deaths every year. We don't have CNN out there saying cars should be banned and they take pictures of car dealers asking why we are choosing "cars over lives." People die, we don't stop civilization over it. Especially when the people who are dying are an almost totally distinct cohort from the people who keep the economy afloat and need to take care of their families. I would argue there is a good way to implement policies that help both (strict policies for nursing home employees, intake, etc.) without forcing everyone to stay inside and be tracked by their government.
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