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[ClosingADoor]

The thing is tho you always mention the overrepresentation with out talking about how they are discriminated against IN EVERY SINGLE STEP.
I have informed you several times but you still don't take that into account?
I'll repeat again so you lies don't mean shit.
"Research on discrimination in the judicial system clearly shows that immigrants are discriminated against in all stages of the legal process. They reported more often , they are arrested to a greater extent , they investigated much more thoroughly , they suspected more often and they are pursued more often"

And yes you should be ashamed cause of your cherrypicking stats and not reading the whole damn reports.
You are still pointing towards one small group that is part of a small piece of a problem regarding mens violence towards women.

I have not ignored it. I have said previously I doubt that makes up for all the difference.

I think you are just reading in my words what you want to read, without trying to actually understand my point now. I do get it, since we have a lot of disgusting far right parties on the rise in Europe and a lot of racists views being blatantly put online everywhere, but I am not doing that or agreeing in any way with that.

 

[Liljagare]

2016 will be known as the worst summer in history as far as rapes go for Sweden.. :\ What the fudge is going on??

 

[Jokab]

The problem isn't men. The problem is middle eastern men in Sweden why don't hold the same female values as Swedes or other Europeans.

Go watch the news on YouTube in Sweden from various outlets. Many females are terrified of going out at night because of immigrant gangs. In fact recently Sweden cancelled earth day which is an event to turn off all lighting in the cities etc. It was cancelled as a result of increased crime and sexual assaults.

What's worse, many of them (immigrants) say they are under 15 years of age(when they blatantly are not) and the police can't arrest them.

Actually yes, the problem is men. Very few women women who argue in this topic point the blame at immigrant gangs or immigrants in general; it's mostly the men who do this. Why? Because
a) men of all cultures and nationalities sexually assault women. It's not confined to any group.
b) white men feel that it's easier to remove themselves from the discussion and direct it towards another group, meaning they don't have to take any responsibility in the matter.

I've heard countless stories both on the internet and from female friends who have been harassed by people of all cultures, honestly most of what I read about and hear about concern Swedish men.

By putting the blame on immigrants and proclaiming "not all men!" you are not only wrong but you also move the problem away from its core: the problem is men, not any of its cultures in specific.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

Guy above me gets it!

I have not ignored it. I have said previously I doubt that makes up for all the difference.

I think you are just reading in my words what you want to read, without trying to actually understand my point now. I do get it, since we have a lot of disgusting far right parties on the rise in Europe and a lot of racists views being blatantly put online everywhere, but I am not doing that or agreeing in any way with that.

Well since you then DON't have any credible 100% data I think it stupid to act on it.
Untill you can prove that the MASSIVE discrimination coupled with socioeconomic and male polulation in said group aren't enough to make a difference then we have noting to speak about.
The burden of proof is on you.

The thing is that SD (sweden democrats) have used this line of attack against POC and just like you they cherrypicked stats and didn't look at it deeper, all to further their xenophobic agenda.
What you are I have no idea. I do know i see you in threads like this a lot (threads that try and link the migration crisis with rape).

I do know that you don't post in other threads regarding womens rights (perhaps you lurk).
And I have never seen you talk about men violence against women but only talk about immigrants and refugees.
So perhaps you would prove me wrong and actually do something instead of pointing fingers and moving goalposts.

 

[His Majesty]

No offence but you are the one who is constantly pointing fingers and trying to accuse people of being racist.

 

[MMaRsu]

Köln, New Year's Eve - out of 153 suspects, 149 were foreigners.

Naww man, its all just bullshit spread by nationalist hate groups!

/s

Terrible news for the victims. If identified, these fuckers should be deporter to their country of birth and thrown in jail.

Sexually assaulting a 12 year old disgusting

 

[ClosingADoor]

Well since you then DON't have any credible 100% data I think it stupid to act on it.
Untill you can prove that the MASSIVE discrimination coupled with socioeconomic and male polulation in said group aren't enough to make a difference then we have noting to speak about.
The burden of proof is on you.

The thing is that SD (sweden democrats) have used this line of attack against POC and just like you they cherrypicked stats and didn't look at it deeper, all to further their xenophobic agenda.
What you are I have no idea. I do know i see you in threads like this a lot (threads that try and link the migration crisis with rape).

I do know that you don't post in other threads regarding womens rights (perhaps you lurk).
And I have never seen you talk about men violence against women but only talk about immigrants and refugees.
So perhaps you would prove me wrong and actually do something instead of pointing fingers and moving goalposts.

I have shown you the statistics. As far as I know, the report you mention still shows a significant difference when taking into account socioeconomic status and discrimination. I can't read Swedish and PDFs are hell to translate, so maybe I'm wrong there. But as far as I can find, the statistics show the over representation of immigrant groups in both sexual assault and wider crime (but the discussion isn't about the latter). This has been the case in multiple countries and the statistics I can find back this up.

I don't support parties like the Swedish Democrats or here Wilders and his PVV party. They yell a lot and don't actually provide any useful solutions. That is also why in the Brexit threads I discussed against removing the UK from the EU, because simply closing your borders and throwing everyone out is not a solution.

I don't really know what "do something" is supposed to mean here. We are on a message board discussing different things. I'm more active in refugee and immigration threads, since people there engage more with my posts it seems, leading to me replying more, that is true. If you want to read any agenda behind that, that is your call.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

I have shown you the statistics. As far as I know, the report you mention still shows a significant difference when taking into account socioeconomic status and discrimination. I can't read Swedish and PDFs are hell to translate, so maybe I'm wrong there. But as far as I can find, the statistics show the over representation of immigrant groups in both sexual assault and wider crime (but the discussion isn't about the latter). This has been the case in multiple countries and the statistics I can find back this up.

I don't support parties like the Swedish Democrats or here Wilders and his PVV party. They yell a lot and don't actually provide any useful solutions. That is also why in the Brexit threads I discussed against removing the UK from the EU, because simply closing your borders and throwing everyone out is not a solution.

I don't really know what "do something" is supposed to mean here. We are on a message board discussing different things. I'm more active in refugee and immigration threads, since people there engage more with my posts it seems, leading to me replying more, that is true. If you want to read any agenda behind that, that is your call.

And you are wrong, the difference isn't significant due to the discrimination coupled with socioeconomic and male polulation in said group as WRITTEN IN SAID REPORT.
To claim otherwise would require something more to back it up.

I don't really care what you like I'm just pointing out that this isn't my first time around this shit show of an argument and that the regressiv right use this as a point.

No offence but you are the one who is constantly pointing fingers and trying to accuse people of being racist.

Never said anyone was racist, just that they use the same arguments as racists.

 

[ClosingADoor]

And you are wrong, the difference isn't significant due to the discrimination coupled with socioeconomic and male polulation in said group as WRITTEN IN SAID REPORT.
To claim otherwise would require something more to back it up.

I don't really care what you like I'm just pointing out that this isn't my first time around this shit show of an argument and that the regressiv right use this as a point.

If you are talking about the regressive right, might as well point at the regressive left also which are shown in this thread.

So, if you use that part about discrimination from the 2005 Swedish report (https://www.bra.se/download/18.cba8...bland_personer_fodda_sverige_och_utlandet.pdf), then you must also have read this (Google Translate):

The conclusion Sarnecki draw is that it is reasonable to assume that immigrants re discriminated against, at least in the first stage of the legal process, in a way that may affect the proportion of those who are registered for the crime. He perceive, however, that this selection is only responsible for part of the difference of registered crime reported in different studies. Based on the available knowledge is good's assessment that there is a selection, but it still explains a small part of the differences that may exist between different ethnic groups in terms of recorded crime.

The conclusions based on that are also from another research, which I can no access myself I think, so I can't see the exact numbers from that. If you have them, I'd be happy to take a look.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

If you are talking about the regressive right, might as well point at the regressive left also which are shown in this thread.

So, if you use that part about discrimination from the 2005 Swedish report (https://www.bra.se/download/18.cba8...bland_personer_fodda_sverige_och_utlandet.pdf), then you must also have read this (Google Translate):



The conclusions based on that are also from another research, which I can no access myself I think, so I can't see the exact numbers from that. If you have them, I'd be happy to take a look.

No it is true that the discrimination ALONE aren't enough to explain the difference.
He is talking about one of the three factor brought up in the report.
He is talking about the rate that they are reported and charged and not socioeconomic nor the fact that more males exist in said group.
I believe as does the report that those 3 COMBINED point towards that it isn't as skewed as you would have it.

 

[ClosingADoor]

No it is true that the discrimination ALONE aren't enough to explain the difference.
He is talking about one of the three factor brought up in the report.
He is talking about the rate that they are reported and charged and not socioeconomic nor the fact that more males exist in said group.
I believe as does the report that those 3 COMBINED point towards that it isn't as skewed as you would have it.

Does the report show any numbers to back that up? Because "we think this explains it" is the same type of argument that you are telling me is not valid.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

Does the report show any numbers to back that up? Because "we think this explains it" is the same type of argument that you are telling me is not valid.

You will just need to read the whole report that puts said number into perspective.

Also found a great quote from the guy you quoted Sarnecki

"Religion förklarar inte
Arbetslöshet, dåligt boende, diskriminering, droger och en kriminell omgivning ökar risken att bli en siffra i våldtäktsstatistiken - både för svenskfödda och invandrare.
-Kulturella skillnader och religion som förklaring till våldtäkter är nonsens, säger Jerzy Sarnecki, professor i kriminologi.
-Eftersom invandrare är överrepresenterade i de mest utsatta grupperna i samhället syns de också i brottsstatistiken."

" Religion does not explain
Unemployment, poor housing , discrimination, drugs and a criminal environment increases the risk of becoming a figure in the rape statistics - both for the Swedish -born and immigrants.
-Cultural Differences and religion as an explanation for rape is nonsense, says Jerzy Sarnecki , professor in criminology .
-Because Immigrants are overrepresented in the most vulnerable groups in society, they also seem in crime statistics . "
Source: http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article10698228.ab

So once again your OWN sources are contradicting your point.
This is actually rather entertaining how you won't say you are wrong to some degree.

 

[Nivash]

2016 will be known as the worst summer in history as far as rapes go for Sweden.. : What the fudge is going on??

Don't assume that increased media attention reflects a 1:1 relationship with an actual increase in rape. The numbers of reported rape and sex offences have held relatively stable over the last ten years, with year to year differences in population victimisation measured in tenths of a percent. Lately, we've had a significant shift towards a zero tolerance attitude to these crimes (which was absolutely not the case in the past), a trend somewhat boosted by the far right using it as a wedge issue and getting conservative males (who didn't really give a damn before) involved in the debate to a much higher degree.

It's way too early to interpret the increased attention as evidence of an actual epidemic of some kind. That's how you go down the road of for example the US; where people are convinced that violent crime is on the rise despite it actually being at its lowest level in decades.

https://www.bra.se/bra/bra-in-english/home/crime-and-statistics/rape-and-sex-offences.html

 

[Juice]

I've been lurking in this thread and it's amazing how both sides seem to carry an agenda as subtext, overreaching to see what they want in this increase in assaults.

I was just in Sweden for a couple weeks as a total outsider, and most of the (affluent, white) people I talked to said that racism against refugees and immigrants was a real problem. When I followed up to ask if they were scared of being the victim of crime at the hand of immigrants, most said yes.

In the US, I'm pretty used to any purported association of immigrants with violent crime being trumped up to underscore a political point. When the data also backs that argument up, I think progressives who want to retain liberal immigration need to acknowledge it head on. Otherwise, arguments that say it's everyone else's fault for discriminating or it's account on the low SES of the immigrants just sound like their solution is to lean even harder into the uneasy policy of liberal immigration.

 

[RoadHazard]

I find it ridiculous and infuriating how some people (mainly from the political left) refuse to admit that many/most immigrants coming here now have grown up in cultures with terrible values regarding women and equality. OBVIOUSLY they're gonna be more likely to do shit like this than native Swedes (not saying Swedes can't or don't do it as well). And no, saying that doesn't make me racist. It's not about where you're from or what the color of your skin is. It's about your values, and if you've been raised in certain cultures they're bound to be pretty shitty in some regards.

We need to be able to acknowledge and talk about these issues, and thankfully most political leaders are now starting to do that.

 

[MMaRsu]

I find it ridiculous and infuriating how some people (mainly from the political left) refuse to admit that many/most immigrants coming here now have grown up in cultures with terrible values regarding women and equality. OBVIOUSLY they're gonna be more likely to do shit like this than native Swedes (not saying Swedes can't or don't do it as well). And no, saying that doesn't make me racist. It's not about where you're from or what the color of your skin is. It's about your values, and if you've been raised in certain cultures they're bound to be pretty shitty in some regards.

We need to be able to acknowledge and talk about these issues, and thankfully most politicians here are now starting to do that.

Yup. This is a good post sir .

 

[ClosingADoor]

You will just need to read the whole report that puts said number into perspective.

Also found a great quote from the guy you quoted Sarnecki

"Religion förklarar inte
Arbetslöshet, dåligt boende, diskriminering, droger och en kriminell omgivning ökar risken att bli en siffra i våldtäktsstatistiken - både för svenskfödda och invandrare.
-Kulturella skillnader och religion som förklaring till våldtäkter är nonsens, säger Jerzy Sarnecki, professor i kriminologi.
-Eftersom invandrare är överrepresenterade i de mest utsatta grupperna i samhället syns de också i brottsstatistiken."

" Religion does not explain
Unemployment, poor housing , discrimination, drugs and a criminal environment increases the risk of becoming a figure in the rape statistics - both for the Swedish -born and immigrants.
-Cultural Differences and religion as an explanation for rape is nonsense, says Jerzy Sarnecki , professor in criminology .
-Because Immigrants are overrepresented in the most vulnerable groups in society, they also seem in crime statistics . "
Source: http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article10698228.ab

So once again your OWN sources are contradicting your point.
This is actually rather entertaining how you won't say you are wrong to some degree.

I have earlier stated that I think those things you mention are contributing to it. I am not denying that.

What I don't agree with is just writing off where and how someone has grown up and that this has influence on their behavior and view of the world, among those things stuff like women's rights which are related to sexual assault. Pretty much what RoadHazard says above me here. Do you really not agree with that?

To me it is entertaining you can not find any differences in how people act in the world based on where they grew up.

 

[Nivash]

I find it ridiculous and infuriating how some people (mainly from the political left) refuse to admit that many/most immigrants coming here now have grown up in cultures with terrible values regarding women and equality. OBVIOUSLY they're gonna be more likely to do shit like this than native Swedes (not saying Swedes can't or don't do it as well). And no, saying that doesn't make me racist. It's not about where you're from or what the color of your skin is. It's about your values, and if you've been raised in certain cultures they're bound to be pretty shitty in some regards.

We need to be able to acknowledge and talk about these issues, and thankfully most political leaders are now starting to do that.

If I had any faith in our national ability to have a mature debate on that topic, I'd be all for it. But I don't. Developments over the last few months have convinced me that we're a xenophobic, cowardly bunch. The only thing I expect out of a debate like that is even more support for regressive anti-immigrant policies and even more hostility towards religions and cultures not considered sufficiently "Swedish".

Hell, you're basically framing it as "let's talk about what's wrong with immigrants and how to fix them" in that very post.

EDIT: I'm going to use the DrFurbs' post below this one as a case in point of why we're not remotely capable of having that kind of discussion yet. Wanting people to turn to alt-right media for "the truth", expressing glee over closed borders and deportations despite the consequences that is going to have for people who, at worst, just want a shot at a better life, Jesus fucking Christ. Even if you think those actions are needed they should be treated as a necessary evil, not a cause for a goddamn celebration.

 

[DrFurbs]

I find it ridiculous and infuriating how some people (mainly from the political left) refuse to admit that many/most immigrants coming here now have grown up in cultures with terrible values regarding women and equality. OBVIOUSLY they're gonna be more likely to do shit like this than native Swedes (not saying Swedes can't or don't do it as well). And no, saying that doesn't make me racist. It's not about where you're from or what the color of your skin is. It's about your values, and if you've been raised in certain cultures they're bound to be pretty shitty in some regards.

We need to be able to acknowledge and talk about these issues, and thankfully most political leaders are now starting to do that.

Boom! Head shot!!!!

Perfect post. Anyone who disagrees really needs to trawl YouTube and news sites to see the truth. It's becoming a major problem ACS thankfully the Swedish people are talking about it. Hell even Sweden had begun introducing harder immigration controls on their boarders based on the varied problem inherited with importing so many from over region. And it's estimated 80k will be deported in the next year as Sweden is doing a U-turn .

 

[KonradLaw]

Shameful incident.
At least for once I'm glad for the low wealth level of my country (Poland), because no sensible migrant from middle east or africa will be stupid enough to come here

 

[ClosingADoor]

If I had any faith in our national ability to have a mature debate on that topic, I'd be all for it. But I don't. Developments over the last few months have convinced me that we're a xenophobic, cowardly bunch. The only thing I expect out of a debate like that is even more support for regressive anti-immigrant policies and even more hostility towards religions and cultures not considered sufficiently "Swedish".

Hell, you're basically framing it as "let's talk about what's wrong with immigrants and how to fix them" in that very post.

EDIT: I'm going to use the DrFurbs' post below this one as a case in point of why we're not remotely capable of having that kind of discussion yet. Wanting people to turn to alt-right media for "the truth", expressing glee over closed borders and deportations despite the consequences that is going to have for people who, at worst, just want a shot at a better life, Jesus fucking Christ. Even if you think those actions are needed they should be treated as a necessary evil, not a cause for a goddamn celebration.

I agree that some talk about immigration has become very shameful in Europe. While I have advocated tougher immigration laws and primarily going through the UN (like the US, UK and Canada are doing) compared to the current situation, nobody should be celebrating over all this.

But this is nothing really new. The refugee crisis was the event that pushed things over the edge. This feeling about immigration has been there for some time already in multiple countries and problems surrounding it have been ignored. The lack of transparency from the government and police with this do nothing to calm people. Just look at this thread where it is impossible to find actual numbers over the last few years. Not publishing those numbers simply pushes people to websites that do run stories about it, but in a dishonest way. That is also why I have said in this thread police and government should better their communication about these issues to take away the feeling among the population that nothing is being done about their fears.

 

[Nivash]

I agree that some talk about immigration has become very shameful in Europe. While I have advocated tougher immigration laws and primarily going through the UN (like the US, UK and Canada are doing) compared to the current situation, nobody should be celebrating over all this.

But this is nothing really new. The refugee crisis was the event that pushed things over the edge. This feeling about immigration has been there for some time already in multiple countries and problems surrounding it have been ignored. The lack of transparency from the government and police with this do nothing to calm people. Just look at this thread where it is impossible to find actual numbers over the last few years. Not publishing those numbers simply pushes people to websites that do run stories about it, but in a dishonest way. That is also why I have said in this thread police and government should better their communication about these issues to take away the feeling among the population that nothing is being done about their fears.

The problem is that this also sets a precedent that something is uniquely wrong with immigrants. The government hasn't collected certain types of statistics in a long time- like religion, race or political leanings - when dealing with issues like crime, because it's been heavily abused in the past. The infrequent studies looking at the relationships of those aspects to crime are sociological studies that create their own databases rather than government databases, that's why they're so infrequent - they require a lot of work. Similarly, the police and news media have never really reported more than basic aspects about suspects and victims (like age and sex) and now people want every immigrant suspect to be highlighted. Acquiescing to public demands like those otherises immigrants, which is a damaging attitude in a democracy.

That aside, I think it's more concerning that we can't agree on reality regarding the statistics that we actually have. We collect and present the raw numbers for crimes committed every year showing that there hasn't been a massive increase in rape, yet we have tons of people thinking there has, because their gut feeling tells them so. Similarly, we have people constantly being factually wrong on primary aspects of immigration such as laws and numbers of applicants and rejections because the reality isn't aligning with their convictions, and they go out spouting ridiculous claims like Sweden being majority muslim by 2030.

Here's one example: a survey asked people how large a proportion of Swedes are muslim, and the answer averaged 17 %. The actual number is less than a third of that - 5 %.

https://www.ipsos-mori.com/research...lity-Things-the-world-gets-wrong.aspx#gallery

That was an international study by the way, and Sweden was the closest to being right despite overestimating the proportion with more than 300 %. Australians overestimated it by 900 %.

The numbers are out there, available to anyone who wants them. But it's not enough to stop people from believing what they want. Because of that, I seriously doubt that even more information is going to do any good as far as people turning to alt-right sites and conspiracy theories when the official narrative doesn't align with what they want to hear is concerned. The problem isn't that there isn't enough information, it's that people are forming a world view independently of what the information says whether it's there or not.

EDIT: The IPSOS survey was really interesting. You can still take their quiz through the link, and I'm going to admit that I was way off myself - I only got 2/10 right, but the questions were pretty tough and I did at least lean towards the more correct answer most of the time. You can choose your own country and see if your impression of things matches reality or not.

 

[ClosingADoor]

The numbers are out there, available to anyone who wants them. But it's not enough to stop people from believing what they want. Because of that, I seriously doubt that even more information is going to do any good as far as people turning to alt-right sites and conspiracy theories when the official narrative doesn't align with what they want to hear is concerned. The problem isn't that there isn't enough information, it's that people are forming a world view independently of what the information says whether it's there or not.

I disagree with this a bit. Sure, a portion of people will believe what they want, you can't stop that.

But a large amount I think also hold these views because if lack of communication and information - or clear sharing of that information. The government for years have been trying very hard to downplay any trouble with immigration, while there are certain problems there, like the earlier mentioned crime, more people on welfare, joblessness, etc. This all has different explanations, but to start you have to be able to talk about the problem. For a long time, that was not possible and lead in part to the rise of the far right who were willing to talk about those things, but of course in the wrong way and with bad 'solutions'.

Now we are at the point were most people when reading about crime will straight away think it was immigrants or people of a different ethnicity then the local population. Not talking about who the actual suspects are is in that way now doing more hurt then good I think.

 

[Nivash]

I disagree with this a bit. Sure, a portion of people will believe what they want, you can't stop that.

But a large amount I think also hold these views because if lack of communication and information - or clear sharing of that information. The government for years have been trying very hard to downplay any trouble with immigration, while there are certain problems there, like the earlier mentioned crime, more people on welfare, joblessness, etc. This all has different explanations, but to start you have to be able to talk about the problem. For a long time, that was not possible and lead in part to the rise of the far right who were willing to talk about those things, but of course in the wrong way and with bad 'solutions'.

Now we are at the point were most people when reading about crime will straight away think it was immigrants or people of a different ethnicity then the local population. Not talking about who the actual suspects are is in that way now doing more hurt then good I think.

I think you're underestimating the impact of bias, though. If you start posting information that, say, immigrants are overrepresented in crime (which they are, factually speaking, for a number of reasons), this will match people's bias that immigrants are criminals, despite that overrepresentation not changing the fact that only a small minority actually are criminals.

Similarly, posting the ethnicities of suspects is only going to trigger a selection bias. People are going to react to crimes where immigrants are suspects and ignore crimes where they are not, and debates like this thread will shift from whether or not immigrants committed a certain crime to discussing the times that we now know they did. This will fortify the previously held bias that immigrants are criminals and, depending on who "wins" the debate, potentially recruit more people to hold the same bias.

The presence or lack of information does not impact what people believe, because people form beliefs based on personal experience and anecdotes, not statistics. Adding more statistics to the mix simply gives them something to cherry pick for ammunition to defend it with. That goes for all sides, by the way, I'm not being partial here.

However, I'm only in favor of abandoning the status quo on highlighting ethnicity if there's a reason to believe it would help things. Seeing as how I do not, I oppose it because I think there's a very real risk that it will give the impression that the government is tacitly admitting that immigrants are a threat, not matter what the information actually says.

 

[BrassDragon]

I think you're underestimating the impact of bias, though. If you start posting information that, say, immigrants are overrepresented in crime (which they are, factually speaking, for a number of reasons), this will match people's bias that immigrants are criminals, despite that overrepresentation not changing the fact that only a small minority actually are criminals.

This is a good summary of the general feeling at my workplace - too much public information might bring unwanted shifts in public perception.

However, law enforcement doesn't have the luxury of just talking about these figures, we're also supposed to identify, prevent and solve crimes. That's practically impossible if you can't look at the context: ethnicity, culture and community are major components of that context (and also the key to many solutions.)

So professionals in the Netherlands have this weird thing where we debate the over-representation of certain ethnicities in certain crimes constantly but only internally - to ever go outside 'the system' is considered beyond the pale.

Any practical solution has to be carefully worded and stealthily implemented because accusations of 'ethnic profiling' scuttle individual careers, partnerships and departmental budgets.

Having said that, the problems are real and can't be ignored. Those who want to wish them away or get indignant that they're even discussed have that prerogative (and their concerns are widely represented in the media and political landscape.)

Just know that people in the crimefighting trenches feel their warnings have been unheeded for years and are increasingly unwilling to participate in the public debate.

 

[TM94]

I find it ridiculous and infuriating how some people (mainly from the political left) refuse to admit that many/most immigrants coming here now have grown up in cultures with terrible values regarding women and equality. OBVIOUSLY they're gonna be more likely to do shit like this than native Swedes (not saying Swedes can't or don't do it as well). And no, saying that doesn't make me racist. It's not about where you're from or what the color of your skin is. It's about your values, and if you've been raised in certain cultures they're bound to be pretty shitty in some regards.

We need to be able to acknowledge and talk about these issues, and thankfully most political leaders are now starting to do that.

Indeed, but that's the Regressive Left for you.

What a terrible shame it's took incidents like these to be able to have that discussion.

The women being assaulted are the only victims here.

 

[Nivash]

This is a good summary of the general feeling at my workplace - too much public information might bring unwanted shifts in public perception.

However, law enforcement doesn't have the luxury of just talking about these figures, we're also supposed to identify, prevent and solve crimes. That's practically impossible if you can't look at the context: ethnicity, culture and community are major components of that context (and also the key to many solutions.)

So professionals in the Netherlands have this weird thing where we debate the over-representation of certain ethnicities in certain crimes constantly but only internally - to ever go outside 'the system' is considered beyond the pale.

Any practical solution has to be carefully worded and stealthily implemented because accusations of 'ethnic profiling' scuttle individual careers, partnerships and departmental budgets.

Having said that, the problems are real and can't be ignored. Those who want to wish them away or get indignant that they're even discussed have that prerogative (and their concerns are widely represented in the media and political landscape.)

Just know that people in the crimefighting trenches feel their warnings have been unheeded for years and are increasingly unwilling to participate in the public debate.

The problems are real and shouldn't be ignored, but that's not license to jump on any suggested solution presented. The political climate in Europe is heavily volatile right now. Any shift in attitude from government agencies needs to be carefully considered because any backfire could have severe consequences. The ham-fisted reaction to the immigration crisis has already hurt a lot of people - asylum seekers and native Europeans alike. We really don't need a similar reaction towards immigrants that have already settled.

I'm in favor of targeted and measured attempts at dealing with segregation and its consequences, and I'm referring to both cultural and geographical segregation here, but I'm deeply opposed to knee-jerk reactions made in an attempt to cater to far right sentiments. This is a complicated issue. It needs complicated solutions. So far, any solution I've seen has been simplistic and antagonistic, which is why I remain skeptical about any suggestion until convinced otherwise.

That includes misguided "transparency" that will only get abused as well as equally misguided "national conversations" about the issue when there's an overwhelming risk that it will just be used as license by people to rail against immigrants.

EDIT: Let me clarify that a bit with an example, because this post ended up sounding a lot like political speak. For instance, I'm in favor of increasing police presence in troubled neighborhoods because that's not a drastic departure from normal procedure. If done right, it can even open up an avenue for police to improve their relationship with the locals. I am, however, deeply opposed to enforced curfews for young people in troubled neighborhoods (which is something the Sweden Democrats recently proposed, actually) because it is a drastic departure, and one that reeks of authoritarianism and collective punishment to boot.

 

[Elabis]

The real scandal was how Swedish authorities swept those kinds of incidents under the rug for quite some time and eventually had to admit them. There surely were good intentions behind this approach but unfortunately the end result is much worse when stuff like this is uncovered. It plays right into the hands of certain right-wing circles.

If there is a problem caused by a culture clash and not least by the insufficient integration of the many young, male refugees, it needs to be faced and discussed openly.

Now this is just racist...

 

[Jokab]

Now this is just racist...

I disagree. Can you elaborate on why it's racist?

 

[verbatimo]

Another harassment case. This time on Gothia Soccer Cup.

Perpetrators was whole team 30 young boys and an adult male.

It started with the guys in the gang wanted to take pictures with the girls, but then when girls wanted to leave they did not get out and was held down by the gang.

https://www.gp.se/sport/tjejer-omringades-och-antastades-fick-slå-sig-loss-1.3491750

 

[Jokab]

Another harassment case. This time on Gothia Soccer Cup.

Perpetrators was whole team 30 young boys and an adult male.

It started with the guys in the gang wanted to take pictures with the girls, but then when girls wanted to leave they did not get out and was held down by the gang.

https://www.gp.se/sport/tjejer-omringades-och-antastades-fick-slå-sig-loss-1.3491750

And the team was sent home, for the first time in Gothia Cup history.