May 20 - Draw Mohammed Day

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SapientWolf said:
No, it's all about proving a pithy point. No idea, person, country or religion is free from criticism. Threats of violence should not and will not prevent people from doing so. It's sad that it had to come to this, but the point has to be made loud and clearly.

Except that the "target audience" for these caricatures are not going to see it that way. They're going to interpret it as a personal attack on their people and faith, and respond accordingly. Their culture doesn't have "South Parks", or other forums for absolute verbal expression the way that we do. The point won't be proven. However, there will be a flood of Mohammed pictures(the lion's share of which will probably be pretty fucking offensive), and nothing good will come of it. Just like nothing good came of this:

mohammed-cartoon.jpg


THAT is why it's stupid. Of course violence is a poor response to free speech and comedy. But it's not like this is going to make a difference, so why even bother?
 
MultiCore said:
I disagree. I think the implied threat of "Oh, it's not going to end well if you keep doing this." is outrageous.
Exactly. Indeed, that's the entire point of this exercise.
 
Cyan said:
You have just described a chilling effect.

Not my intent.

Voltaire's declaration goes both ways. I'll defend your right to draw whatever inflammatory criticisms of anybody you want, free from legal repercussions, threats of violence, or other coercion. It's a fundamental right essential for any free society.

But that doesn't mean I have to agree with what you're drawing, or think that's it's a good idea to draw it in the first place.
 
EschatonDX said:
This is a fucking stupid idea.

It's childish, needlessly offensive, and is less about trying to prove some pithy point and more about enraging a certain group of people just because they know they can. Facebook should honestly take this shit down before it gets worse than it is now.
You sound like Tom Cruise.
 
It makes sense for the people capable of believing (living by) in non-existent entities to be enraged by, well, images. Pixels, joined together.

PIXELS

If you guys were blind, this would be a non-issue. Hell I wish those turkeys at RevolutionMuslim were blind, just so they can shut the fuck up.
 
EschatonDX said:
THAT is why it's stupid. Of course violence is a poor response to free speech and comedy. But it's not like this is going to make a difference, so why even bother?

You mean we should skip right to death threats?
 
Several articles I've read on this topic today link to this Washington Post article: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/comic-riffs/2010/04/everybody_draw_mohammed_day_ga.html?wprss=comic-riffs

Its title is 'Everybody Draw Mohammed Day!' grows in reaction to 'South Park' [UPDATED], so before it was updated it may have been the original article the OP quoted. In any case, it has a lot of good info that hasn't been posted in this thread yet.

It also sounds like there is more than one Facebook group, but I think this is the main one: http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=113257775375783&ref=ts

Finally, here is the Seattle cartoonist's website, where she currently displays the original poster along with a message that she is not going along with Everybody Draw Mohammed Day: http://www.mollynorris.com/
 
Maleficence said:
I heard you say ban, I didn't hear him say it.

And I think comedians who do comedy at the expense of others are assholes. funny assholes, but assholes none the less.

The point is that if we shouldn't be doing certain stuff because it could be offensive to some, comedy wouldn't exist.
 
This is a childish and immature thing to do, and you know what? That's EXACTLY why it should be done. Anyone who chooses to be offended by such childish and immature things is a moron, and this is the perfect way to make people realize that.

At the end of the day, no matter what your beliefs are, when someone says something or creates something that doesn't directly hurt anyone, you CHOOSE whether or not to be offended. If you're a Muslim and a drawing of Muhammed deeply offends you to the point where you're vocally pissed off and/or violent, you're not just following your religious beliefs; you're being a moron.

In regards to the racial slur discussion: if someone calls me a racial slur, I don't get offended. I think "okay, this person is an idiot" and get on with my day. Same thing for religiously offensive shit.
 
EmCeeGramr said:
Not my intent.

Voltaire's declaration goes both ways. I'll defend your right to draw whatever inflammatory criticisms of anybody you want, free from legal repercussions, threats of violence, or other coercion. It's a fundamental right essential for any free society.

But that doesn't mean I have to agree with what you're drawing, or think that's it's a good idea to draw it in the first place.
That's fine. I certainly understand what you're getting at, I just think that some people getting angry is a lesser evil than the chilling of free speech.
 
MultiCore said:
Since when do people think they have the right to resort to violence and death to silence someone who's offending them?

Probably since about the same time it was ever right to gratuitously offend people?

Two wrongs ... and all that
 
Parallax Scroll said:
10 minute video of Jon Stewart on the South Park censorship (amusing and insightful): http://voices.washingtonpost.com/comic-riffs/2010/04/post_2.html#comments


awesome...


How do certain groups move west and think that they can somehow exist as if they still in their old country? If you cant take the heat... What’s happening here is not a personal attack against Muslims. Its highlighting a real problem with dangerously extreme intolerance.



Its also funny that everyone has that line that shouldn't be crossed which is almost always based on their own situation. Then again most people just get pissed and not homicidal.


phisheep said:
Probably since about the same time it was ever right to gratuitously offend people?

Two wrongs ... and all that

Not is this country my friend... at least not now. Jesus has taken his lumps and came out as strong as ever. If you think killing someone over an offensive remark/drawing/show is ok then you are part of the problem.
 
RustyNails said:
Right...so to combat religious intolerance, we promote religious intolerance but this time, under the garb of freedom of expression.
Didn't we just covered that?
Hooray going in circles!

This is not religious intolerance.
The only thing that is not being tolerated here is putting limitations on freedom of speech due to religious sensitivities.
You can argue that such limitations should be put, that's fine, but painting this as religious intolerance is intellectually dishonest.
 
Cyan said:
That's fine. I certainly understand what you're getting at, I just think that some people getting angry is a lesser evil than the chilling of free speech.
I don't see it as a chilling of free speech at all. It's something that everybody does subconsciously in their everyday lives.

I could make a thread calling everyone on GAF *insert racial slur* and telling them to *perform lewd sexual and/or scatological act* and it would be in my rights as an American. I could do that to my friends and family too, or hold up a sign on a street corner inviting all pedestrians to consider my theory of their matrilineal descendancy from canines, or that the the center of their nervous system may be comprised of feces.

I don't do that though, and you don't do it either, because even if it's within our rights (and indeed is a right to be defended, since there are some people out there who deserve it... well, not the racial slur part, but you get it), it's a dumb thing to do and would result in us getting permabanned, shouted at, or punched in the face. Not to mention feeling really stupid.


Obviously this situation is different in that there's one side attempting to stifle that freedom in the first place. But on the other hand reacting in an inflammatory manner will be playing into their hands, and feeding one of the largest and most dangerous movements on the planet (and a central issue in modern international politics) is more than "some people getting angry." It's not an implied threat to say that, it's warning you of a threat. Caution and carefulness are not cowardice or spinelessness.



Rebuke threats of violence. Speak out against coercion. Heck, draw Mohammad. But remember that having a noble goal doesn't excuse poor execution.

For example, if this sort of movement was organized by actual political or social activists instead of being a bunch of Facebook groups, then there would be a central message attached, and it might not be a bunch of Facebook kids drawing a stereotypically ugly Arab donned as a stereotypical terrorist and labeled "Mohammad." How about drawing Mohammad as just a man, without making him look like a monster or subhuman? Suddenly you're achieving two goals: you're asserting that threats of religious violence will not trump freedom of speech and expression, AND you're making it harder for the extremists who spearhead these anti-free-speech movements to gain ground. When Muhammad is drawn in a way that doesn't naturally incite anger or offense in Muslims of all stripes, then the extremists' case that these drawings prove that the West "hates" Islam and wants to blaspheme their faith all day long falls apart.


Bam. You've protected freedom of speech, while at the same time helping to calm the situation, and possibly planted seeds of understanding (that freedom of speech is not some veiled form of blasphemy) in the minds of Muslims worldwide.
 
:lol at the people against this.

Don't hold your religion's silly fucking rules to the whole world. You can't. You won't. YOU agree to your mythology. YOU are told you can't draw your prophet. OTHERS have agreed to no such thing.

I'll be drawing the shit out of everything I can on the 20th, I assure you. Ignoring the radicals since they're not even worth talking about, muslims against this need to get over it. Your religion isn't the whole world's religion. Deal with it. Get over it.

Yes, some people have to "pay" (lol) for the crazy actions of some, but it needs to be set in fucking stone that free speech > any religion's quirks.
 
The seeds of understanding have to be planted from both sides. People won't stop drawing cocks because some people can't handle their basic emotions.
 
SnakeXs said:
:lol at the people against this.

Don't hold your religion's silly fucking rules to the whole world. You can't. You won't. YOU agree to your mythology. YOU are told you can't draw your prophet. OTHERS have agreed to no such thing.

I'll be drawing the shit out of everything I can on the 20th, I assure you. Ignoring the radicals since they're not even worth talking about, muslims against this need to get over it. Your religion isn't the whole world's religion. Deal with it. Get over it.

Yes, some people have to "pay" (lol) for the crazy actions of some, but it needs to be set in fucking stone that free speech > any religion's quirks.

You don't need to be a complete motherfucking asshole about it either.
 
SnakeXs said:
:lol at the people against this.

Don't hold your religion's silly fucking rules to the whole world. (etc.)

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that anyone opposed to this is Muslim or otherwise religious.

That's wrong as well.

Basic human politeness is enough.
 
Trip Warhawkins said:
The seeds of understanding have to be planted from both sides. People won't stop drawing cocks because some people can't handle their basic emotions.

Of course not. But it's a small step.

And to make clear once again, lest anyone skim that and think I'm saying that religious sensitivity trumps criticism and free speech, that's not the case at all. I just view my saying "Hey, that isn't the best thing to say" as the same thing that everybody says when they disagree with somebody else. If a friend of mine said (or was about to say) something stupid that he should probably refrain from saying in the future, I would say so. I wouldn't see that as a chilling effect on his right to free speech. I'm just expressing myself in turn.
 
and you ask why people hate west some times. some muslim in small afghan village or iraq or any other country will read this in news paper and what do you think he will think? There is no point to it. Stupid site owner did this probably to get famous and more stupid people will do more stupid thing.
 
crazy monkey said:
and you ask why people hate west some times. some one is small afghan village or iraq will read this in news paper and what do you think he will think? There is no point to it. Stupid site owner did this probably to get famous and more stupid people will do more stupid thing.

Yes and it will be awesome.
 
crazy monkey said:
and you ask why people hate west some times. some one is small afghan village or iraq will read this in news paper and what do you think he will think? There is no point to it. Stupid site owner did this probably to get famous and more stupid people will do more stupid thing.
"Hmm, I wonder why people hate the west."

"Because a minuscule percentage of the population is volunteering to draw pictures of the prophet Muhammed in response to a grass-roots celebration of snark, and no civil authorities will stop it."

"Oh. OK."
 
If you are in a small afghan village, your resources should be completely spent on figuring out how to bail the heck out, not on getting the paper. What's the paper good for? wipe your ass a couple of times? Great! your uninformed ass is clean 'till the next batch of shit!
 
phisheep said:
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that anyone opposed to this is Muslim or otherwise religious.

That's wrong as well.

Basic human politeness is enough.

The problem here is that in America, there is no law that says you have to be nice to people.

Freedom of speech = freedom to be a complete cockbite. People are then free to label you a cockbite, and choose not to associate with you, your company, or any products your produce, but your freedom to be a cockbite remains.

Here we have a group in New York saying "Don't be a cockbite...or else."

And the logical response follows (different example, same story):

20090817.jpg


Attempts to censor language are just going to make it worse. Attaching a societal stigma to it is the worst you can do, but it's not going to make it go away, nor are threats of violence.
 
:lol Fighting violence and closed mindedness with humor and drawings! This is great! :lol

Can't wait to draw my Calvin and Hobbes strip where they meet Mr. M. in the forest.
 
phisheep said:
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that anyone opposed to this is Muslim or otherwise religious.

That's wrong as well.

Basic human politeness is enough.

It is true that basic human politeness is a valued concept.

I would argue, however, that that MURDEROUS INTENT should be a concept that should be addressed and removed from society first.

Basically, you can condemn people for being rude. This is just.

However, it is not REMOTELY comparable to those willing to murder because their feelings were hurt. Completely unacceptable and beyond compare.
 
Evlar said:
"Hmm, I wonder why people hate the west."

"Because a minuscule percentage of the population is volunteering to draw pictures of the prophet Muhammed in response to a grass-roots celebration of snark, and no civil authorities will stop it."

"Oh. OK."

you blame all the religious person when only even one of them does something wrong. Isn't it. Minuscule will not matter in the end.

Trip Warhawkins said:
If you are in a small afghan village, your resources should be completely spent on figuring out how to bail the heck out, not on getting the paper. What's the paper good for? wipe your ass a couple of times? Great! your uninformed ass is clean 'till the next batch of shit!
inform you ass first.
 
jaxword said:
It is true that basic human politeness is a valued concept.

I would argue, however, that that MURDEROUS INTENT should be a concept that should be addressed and removed from society first.

Basically, you can condemn people for being rude. This is just.

However, it is not REMOTELY comparable to those willing to murder because their feelings were hurt. Completely unacceptable and beyond compare.

First?

What - before we start being polite we have to get rid of every murderous intent?

I don't understand - that sounds like impossible madness to me.

I guess what you must mean is that someone who expresses murderous intent forfeits their right to politeness - which I can sort of see. But that doesn't in turn give anyone the right to at the same time gratuitously offend something like a billion other people who don't have any murderous intent.

(And I don't think I ever claimed that murderous intent and impoliteness were comparable, beyond them both being wrong - which I would have thought was fairly obvious.)
 
crazy monkey said:
you blame all the religious person when only even one of them does something wrong. Isn't it. Minuscule will not matter in the end.
Strangely, I don't recall blaming all religious people for anything.
phisheep said:
First?

What - before we start being polite we have to get rid of every murderous intent?

I don't understand - that sounds like impossible madness to me.

I guess what you must mean is that someone who expresses murderous intent forfeits their right to politeness - which I can sort of see. But that doesn't in turn give anyone the right to at the same time gratuitously offend something like a billion other people who don't have any murderous intent.

(And I don't think I ever claimed that murderous intent and impoliteness were comparable, beyond them both being wrong - which I would have thought was fairly obvious.)
See, the right to free speech sort of encompasses the right to be impolite to however many billion people you wish. That's what freedom of speech implies. It's a little surprising to have to point this out, since the implications of free speech on society have been debated and visible in practice for hundreds of years now.

EDIT: The strangest thing, to be frank, is surprise at being insulted. Others have said it already: people are insulted all the time. It's practically endemic. You cannot reserve for yourself a special category of being insulted when everything is open to insult.
 
Kettch said:
If this movement were about forcing Muslims to stare at images of Mohammed, that would be an asshole thing to do. Hell, if Muslims objected to image inserts on the forum and wanted Mohammed images hyper linked so as to be able to avoid them, I'd even consider that a reasonable request.

But to be offended by the drawing of him anywhere by anyone that has absolutely no effect on them is not something that deserves respect.

This. I don't see this event as mocking Islam at all.

All it does is send the message that we aren't compelled to adhere to the same guidelines. And for good reason. Especially if the reason Mohammed didn't want to be visually represented was for reasons of idolatry... well, we're not likely to be doing that, anyways, since we aren't even muslim! The only reason we'd draw him would be the same reason we'd draw anything: visual representation. Idolatry may be an issue for muslims and their relationship to their prophet, but it sure isn't for us.

I really don't see any issue except some whiners thinking we should all play by their rules, because their feelings are too easily hurt, or they haven't yet learned to dissociate personal from public standards. Some people may create intentionally malicious illustrations of Mohammed, but that is a fault of the individual submitting those works and even then freedom of expression is honored... it really can't be claimed with any certainty that the intent of this event is anything but benign.

edit:

Dever said:
I don't get this. I get we want to protest the asshats that make death threats and everything, but I don't think this is a good way of doing it. It will also offend muslims who never had anything to do with the threats, for no good reason. Yeah, no right not to be offended, but there's no point in drawing Muhammed everywhere. The moderates would probably join these protests if they didn't include mocking all of their religion instead of just the crazies.

The rights of those muslims would only be negatively affected if they were subjected to the representations of their prophet against their will, as Kettch said.
 
phisheep said:
First?

What - before we start being polite we have to get rid of every murderous intent?

I don't understand - that sounds like impossible madness to me.

I guess what you must mean is that someone who expresses murderous intent forfeits their right to politeness - which I can sort of see. But that doesn't in turn give anyone the right to at the same time gratuitously offend something like a billion other people who don't have any murderous intent.

(And I don't think I ever claimed that murderous intent and impoliteness were comparable, beyond them both being wrong - which I would have thought was fairly obvious.)

Actually. Yes we do have the right to offend billions of people. It's called the first amendment. And let me tell you why that's important. Let's say it was my belief that Muhammad was a pedophile for marrying a six year old girl and that it offends me that anyone would hold him in high regard. Does that mean Muslims should have to stop respecting Muhammad because it would hypothetically offend me? No, it doesn't and that's the beauty of free speech; it works both ways.
 
I don't get this. I get we want to protest the asshats that make death threats and everything, but I don't think this is a good way of doing it. It will also offend muslims who never had anything to do with the threats, for no good reason. Yeah, no right not to be offended, but there's no point in drawing Muhammed everywhere. The moderates would probably join these protests if they didn't include mocking all of their religion instead of just the crazies.
 
I think that there is a double standard that needs to be addressed.

When South Park depicts Jesus slicing the Pope in half, that must be horribly offensive to devout Christians, let alone devout Catholics, and yet no one is threatened and everyone agrees that it's within the show's rights to do that.

But when Mohammed is portrayed on the show (not extraordinarily I might add, without demonizing him or deifying him) in an episode that's critiquing the double standard, Comedy Central decides that it's best to censor him out. Why?

Satire is one of the strongest forms of free speech, and if visual depictions (re:cartoons) is an effective vehicle for satire, then we lose something when we're threatened into compliance with a religious world-view that deserves satirical treatment just as much as any other religion does. With that in mind, I say draw away. **** it if people think it's offensive. Free speech isn't for the people you agree with.
 
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