elrechazado
Banned
Baki said:
A bit much? Bug off.
May 20 - Draw Mohammed Day
- Thread starter Roi
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A bit much? Bug off.
Except for the fact that Christians worship one God... But most don't pay attention to that.Comic said:But that's how it is seen. I don't think anything said could really change how any traditionally religious devout see other faiths. It's particularly bad in areas like Saudi Arabia, from what I've heard.
Intolerance for everyone!
Okay, I thought you were supporting that view, sorry.Comic said:But that's how it is seen. I don't think anything said could really change how any traditionally religious devout see other faiths. It's particularly bad in areas like Saudi Arabia, from what I've heard.
Intolerance for everyone!
People shouldn't be offended by a pictorial representation of a HUMAN who DOES have a shape and form who lived in the 600s. Oh, this human who murdered and slaughtered many people by the way is not a God and it's a joke that people call it 'blasphemous' to have a pictorial representation of him. And of course, we all burn in hell, die, etc if we do it. Not sure the 40 virgin harem is what I'm looking for anyway.Maleficence said:
This is America, you want to draw a picture there is no reason in the world that you shouldn't. People will be offended regardless of what you do, back down and they'll edge closer.
1st amendment bitches
speculawyer
Member
Maleficence said:
I find this image offensive. I often browse GAF and my 4 year-old daughter who looks over my shoulder may see that image. So keeping that avatar is intentionally hateful and offensive.
Are you going to switch now?
While I do believe that Muslims have their reasons to be offended by these images and I respect that, nobody has the right to restrict another person's free speech or threaten violence, no matter how offensive it may be.
I hope this day turns out to be more about bringing out discussion of the topic, and hopefully helping to destroy the chokehold that extremists have on the subject, rather than just mean spirited mocking that helps nobody.
I hope this day turns out to be more about bringing out discussion of the topic, and hopefully helping to destroy the chokehold that extremists have on the subject, rather than just mean spirited mocking that helps nobody.
speculawyer said:
I find this image offensive. I often browse GAF and my 4 year-old daughter who looks over my shoulder may see that image. So keeping that avatar is intentionally hateful and offensive.
Are you going to switch now?
You missed the part where he is the one who decides what is intentionally offense, not you.
Yeah and the most important religious text says this:PoliceCop said:
"We sent down to you THIS BOOK truthfully, confirming all previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall judge among them according to what is sent down from God (this book), and do not follow their wishes if they deviate from the truth.... You shall judge among them according to what is send down from God (this book); do not follow their wishes, and BEWARE lest they divert you from that which is sent down to you from God (this book).... Would they seek the laws of ignorance? WHO IS BETTER THAN GOD as a lawmaker, for those who sincerely believe?" (Quran 5:48-50)
"They almost diverted you (O Muhammad) from our revelations to you; they wanted you to fabricate something else to consider you a friend. If it were not that we strengthened you, you almost leaned towards them a little bit. Had you done it, we would have doubled the punishment for you in this life, and after death; no one could have protected you against us." (17:7375)
"When our verses are recited for them, those who do not expect to meet us would say, 'Bring a Quran other than this, or change it.' Say (O Muhammad), 'I cannot change it on my own initiative. I simply follow what is revealed to me. I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the retribution of a terrible day.' ...Who is more wicked than one who invents lies about God, or rejects His revelations? The guilty never succeed. Yet, they idolize beside God those who possess no power to harm them or benefit them, and say, 'These are our intercessors with God.' ...such is idolworship." (10:15-18)
"Say (O Muhammad), 'Whose testimony is greater?' Say, 'God is the witness between me and you that THIS QURAN was given to me to preach it to you, and to whomever it reaches.' However, you certainly bear witness that you set up other gods beside God (by upholding other sources beside Quran). Say, 'I will never do what you are doing; I disown your idolworship.'" (6:19)
Why people choose to follow the Hadith is beyond me.
edit: Qu'ran is the word of God. Any Muslim would state the Qu'ran as the most important sadly no one takes the time to actually read it.
In this thread, folks striving to be offensive just for the sake of being offensive.
In this thread, folks defending the actions of extremists pushing their believes and fears on others for the sake of...manners?
In this thread, folks presenting great, level-headed analysis.
In this thread, me being thoroughly entertained.
In this thread, folks defending the actions of extremists pushing their believes and fears on others for the sake of...manners?
In this thread, folks presenting great, level-headed analysis.
In this thread, me being thoroughly entertained.
Chichikov said:
You promote religious intolerance when your intention is to get others to be intolerant. I think there's a difference between promoting behaviour that others dislike and promoting intolerant beliefs, and I think that the difference lies in the intention of that action: when you use a hateful image your intention is to get others to be hateful; when most people eat port in public they don't intend to encourage others to do so to spite and insult Muslim or Jewish people.
blame space
Banned
2San said:
my friends would sometimes catch me saying it on friday nights.
"what was that?"
"oh, it was nothing," i'd say as i finished off a beer, "hey, you want to grab me another?"
it went on like this for years: drinking whilst secretly insulting Islam after every beer; until one day, i could hide it no longer. i tenaciously shotgunned my 12th natty light of the evening. upon the frothy completion i threw the can to the wayside and screamed with a fiery indignation the reason i had been drinking for all those years,
"FUCK ISLAM!"
Blair said:
Yeah, just like a nigger is just a word. Words can't hurt you. Of course there is history behind that word and ugly history but Islamophobia has also an ugly history and after 2001 it has raised it's head in western countries. Word and pictures are same thing, not a big deal yet they both causes huge fuss.
speculawyer said:
I find this image offensive. I often browse GAF and my 4 year-old daughter who looks over my shoulder may see that image. So keeping that avatar is intentionally hateful and offensive.
Are you going to switch now?
I'm with you. I personally believe in Zeus and this Kratos fella chasing and killing my God and his buddies ain't cool with me
Gotta boycottSony and Santa Monica Studio.gerg said:
Explain why Candide wasn't hateful and then why drawings of Mohamed can't be not hateful for the same reasons. Or you could acknowledge that drawings may not be hateful in which case I don't understand what we are debating. I guess you are really worried that some of them may be offensive.
idahoblue said:
Nope, just trying to spread some context! I find most organized religions to have been twisted for someone's personal gain at some point in history, and many of them incorporate the beliefs of those they try to 'turn' in order to satiate them over time. They're rather unreliable! They can serve a positive purpose though, and aren't inherently bad, but then you get into the fact that a 'religion' is separate from the culture that actually practices it... however which way they choose, with whatever added rules that have been added over time. Religion in particular is often used as a political weapon these days!
Pctx said:
Except for when that One God is a Trinity or the son of Himself or... it might go on from there but those are the only examples I can think of. I do know that the idea of God having a human son can also considered rather assumptive, and then rather confusing when it is also supposed to be God Himself!
Couple of things -gerg said:
Not everything that is hateful is religious intolerance.
I totally agree that the intention matter, but once again, the intention was not to piss Muslim people. Didn't we just covered that? I feel like we're going in circles.
The only thing that is not being tolerated here, is putting limitation on freedom of speech due to religious sensitivities.
Again, this is not an a-priori true assertion, and one that can certainly be argued, but don't try to frame it as religious intolerance.
ElectricBlue187
Member
CiSTM said:
I agree. I wonder if I really agree or am just hypnotized by your avatar
Guileless
Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
And my final thought on the incoherence of people who are upset about this: let's say you all got your way and the government installed a Blasphemy Commission to police blasphemy and "intolerance." If they appointed me, the first thing I would do, as a believing Christian in a country with mostly Christian voters, is to decree that anyone who practices a religion that does not acknowledge the divinity of Christ is guilty of blasphemy, is intolerant to core religious beliefs, and will be sent to reeducation camps.
Problem solved! Before you say that's ridiculous, that's the way it's been for the vast majority of people who have ever lived. We all like it better this way, right? If you have to let some things roll off you back so we enjoy this unprecedented freedom, eh.
Problem solved! Before you say that's ridiculous, that's the way it's been for the vast majority of people who have ever lived. We all like it better this way, right? If you have to let some things roll off you back so we enjoy this unprecedented freedom, eh.
speculawyer said:
I find this image offensive. I often browse GAF and my 4 year-old daughter who looks over my shoulder may see that image. So keeping that avatar is intentionally hateful and offensive.
Are you going to switch now?
You let your 4-year old daughter watch as you browse GAF? There better not be a #1 Father mug in your kitchen.
Chichikov said:
Perhaps. I think you're stretching the meaning of "hateful" by saying so, though. A better word might be "offensive".
I think that this conflict is what makes the matter so difficult.
On the one hand, the intentions of the original idea seem to be good, and so I would support the action.
On the other hand, the intentions of some of the drawings produced as a result of the action would be bad, and so I would not support the action, given that I'd prefer no negative consequences rather than some good consequences.
At the moment, at least, I'm not trying to frame the original idea of "Draw a Mohammud day!" as religiously intolerant.
DevelopmentArrested
Banned
This is a perfectly acceptable idea. Nothing sacred about religion or beliefs. Sorry.
The fact that the word Trinity doesn't appear in the Torah or Injil makes it a theological word to discuss the character of God. Scholars have been trying to figure that one out for ages but it remains in the realm of the unknowable.Comic said:
In terms of Isa... If he was simply another Joe schmoe Jewish carpenter, then why did he get crucified?
When the Daily Show makes a mean joke about the right it is likely the far right will take only offense whereas the middle and left will think there's something to the joke.
Why is this any different? Who gives a shit if the strict fundamentalists are or aren't offended and why is it only about them?
That's slightly embarrassing.
Why is this any different? Who gives a shit if the strict fundamentalists are or aren't offended and why is it only about them?
gerg said:
That's slightly embarrassing.
Mad Max said:
I don't see the difference. N-word is an racial slur that usually is used to offend people. These pictures are used to offend muslims. Just because you don't think it's offensive doesn't make it any less offensive, even if it's just Islam saying it.
Lots of stupid things offend people and there is no ways around it. How about buring flags ? I get arrested in most countries for burning a piece of cloth.
Pctx said:
I won't argue what God is or isn't, as I won't ever claim to be an expert, but lots of people got crucified! It was a means of execution in those days. Nothing particularly special about crucifixion on its own!
Edit: Additionally, even the Islam faith does not consider him to be a 'Joe schmoe' and any religious references tend to hold him in some of the highest regard as a highly effectual prophet. Mohammed was also just a prophet! There's actually an acronym that follows every mention of either Christ or Mohammed (I think they're different though? I can't recall) which basically is something along the lines of May He Be Glorified.
CiSTM said:
Yeah, drawing a picture of a prophet is really comparable to bringing up centuries of slavery and discrimination. Maybe we should ban the Quran since that shitty book goes out of its way to insult everyone who isn't a muslim.
Fuck those uptight religious morons who want to destroy our freedom of expression, I support this day.
CiSTM said:
You have to look at the reason why they are considered offensive, the word nigger is considered offensive by black people because europeans used it to refer to them when they where sold as/used as slaves in america. The reason depicting mohammed is considered offensive is because the qu'ran says it is, and in a modern western liberal society that isn't and shouldn't be a reason to not allow something to be shown. People who are doing this aren't doing it because they want to specifically offend muslims, but because they want to make a statement against this part of islam that is seen as dated and incompatible with modern society.
NullPointer
Member
Here's the thing: just because some people believe it's wrong doesn't actually make it wrong.jakonovski said:
Those who consider this to be idolatry can stand by their beliefs and look the other way, or god forbid, consider that not everybody agrees with them and go about their lives.
The rest of us will stand by what we believe and depict historical persons as we see fit. Not because it may piss you off - but to show that solidarity overcomes threats of violence.
Mad Max said:
The Qu'ran actually doesn't! Which is why not all Muslims will be offended, but much as you wouldn't wear a wifebeater and cutoff jean shorts to church many religious families wouldn't dream of supporting such a depiction! (Though due to the importance of religion in the culture it's quite a bit more extreme than simply showing up as a slob to Mass).
gerg said:
Aren't you going to school for philosophy?
And I'm just having a little fun at your expense. I call it teasing but others may call it hateful, offensive, immoral speech.
gerg said:
OK, I remembered this incorrectly and it is sort of relevant as Voltaire wrote Candide and is considered a philosopher. It makes more sense now why you'd be unfamiliar with the work. My apologies.
That's probably because I'm all for freedom of speech. I just hope people don't forget freedom of religion falls under freedom of speech as well.Dreams-Visions
Member
this.Maleficence said:
dinazimmerman
Incurious Bastard
jay said:
It's horrible debating with dudes whose arguments rely on cultural references and who can't make arguments that stand on their own. Cultural knowledge is worth shit in comparison to "critical thinking" skills.
Also, some people don't like to read because they normally find what authors have to say fatuous and boring.
So just get over yourself and explain to him what Candide is and how it's relevant, or at the very least offer an example he is familiar with. Geez.
sneakypete
Member
Keyser Soze said:
Can we be best friends now?
Mad Max said:
Again, I fail to see how this is any different from calling someone an nigger. By drawing pictures of muhammad you insult something that billions of people keep dear and holy to themselfs. I don't either see how this work as a statement. Small group of muslims take the extreme road and to "stop" them you will offend the rest of the group.
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