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[ziran]

GT4 sold more (mainly in Europe) than GT1 and GT2 (both around 6M), GT3 was more an exception due to being an early showcase of the ps2 capabilities.

Avoiding any statistical variations, the serie has about 6-7M customer userbase, pretty constant.

The series has declined, but I do see it as a shame, it's the best car racing game ever made imo, and GT5 could be the least successful in the main series.

No it hasn't, there is just more options then ever before. GTA, Gran Turismo, Tomb Raider etc. sales might be down but that is because there are more choices and there aren't as many hidden gems that get ignored because of more media coverage.


Not it they keep releasing Carnival Games sequels.

Sales are down and budgets have increased incredibly. This isn't good anyway you spin it.

 

[kay]

The series has declined, but I do see it as a shame, it's the best car racing game ever made imo, and GT5 could be the least successful in the main series.



Sales are down and budgets have increased incredibly. This isn't good anyway you spin it.

What am I spinning? I don't know what you mean by traditional gaming but the industry is doing fine even if there are less games that sell incredibly well. The systems are still too expensive for those mainstream series to sell a lot but people are still buying a good number of games now. It was always tough for some companies to produce hits..

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Wii through the week of 2007-10-22
DS through the week of 2005-10-24

I'm not going to write a detailed comparison at the moment,

Well, it's a new day, so I am now. For purposes of this DS/Wii comparison I will ignore Wii Play.

Wii games over 100K: 11, 3 from third parties
Wii Sports (2.06M)
Mario Party 8 (870K)
Twilight Princess (506K)
WarioWare: Smooth Moves (463K)
Dragon Quest Swords (453K)
Super Paper Mario (449K)
Pokémon Battle Revolution (279K)
Big Brain Acaemy: Wii Degree (194K)
Dragon Ball Z: BT2 (158K)
Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn (153K)
Ennichi no Tatsujin (105K)

DS games over 100K: 12, 2 from third parties
WarioWare Touched! (788K)
Nintendogs (741K)
Super Mario 64 DS (719K)
Brain Age (703K)
Big Brain Academy (612K)
Jump Super Stars (404K)
Tamagotchi Connection (308K)
Pokémon Dash (274K)
Kirby Canvas Curse (208K)
Naruto: SND3 (173K)
Yoshi Touch 'n Go (146K)
Band Brothers (126K)

As I said a few days back, median sucks. Both because the median always gives us a very low number, and because due to the incompleteness of the software numbers we get, we don't have an accurate picture of the bottom of the list. Without the bottom, we can't find the middle. In a total software comparison, Wii's early weak games get an advantage over DS's early weak games since we have complete Wii software data for about a quarter. Thus we had a chance to see games do things like crawl from 4K to 12K. That said, graphically here's a bar comparison of all we know about DS and Wii software sales to this point.

There's not a uniform lead. Wii Sports definitely has a huge lead over #1 DS game WarioWare, but comparing top ten positions DS leads seven times. However, such things as #5 Big Brain Academy beating #5 Dragon Quest Swords don't aid the point that DS's early success was significantly more about core games than Wii's. Nor Tamagotchi by far being the biggest third-party DS game.

 

[iidesuyo]

According to Gamefront.de about 36.000 PS3 have been sold yesterday (when the 40GB version was released). Hardware numbers could be interesting this week.

 

[schuelma]

According to Gamefront.de about 36.000 PS3 have been sold yesterday (when the 40GB version was released). Hardware numbers could be interesting this week.

If true, then PS3 will no doubt outsell Wii this week. Should be fun.

 

[tanod]

Is this the first price official price drop for the PS3?

55k-70k seems likely for the week.

PS3 beating the DS??? Now, that would be entertaining.

 

[Jokeropia]

55-70k would hardly be enough to beat DS.

 

[schuelma]

BTW- RE:UC stand alone and zapper pack both sold out on Amazon Japan. I know it probably doesn't mean much, but it might show that hardcore demand is there.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

If true, then PS3 will no doubt outsell Wii this week. Should be fun.

I wouldn't say it's a no-doubt thing. Are Wii sales stagnant from last week? Down, up? Were PS3 sales significantly down in the preceding 6 days? Do we consider from Media Create which had a 20K difference the previous week, or from Famitsu which had a 25K difference?

 

[schuelma]

I wouldn't say it's a no-doubt thing. Are Wii sales stagnant from last week? Down, up? Were PS3 sales significantly down in the preceding 6 days? Do we consider from Media Create which had a 20K difference the previous week, or from Famitsu which had a 25K difference?

Well, I can't really see a way that Wii hardware actually goes up from 37K without any major releases.

 

[tanod]

55-70k would hardly be enough to beat DS.

Not necessarily. DS has been selling pretty consistently in the 70k. I didn't say it was likely. Just that it would be entertaining.

 

[ethelred]

Congratulations, ziran! You win the misleading and utterly dishonest argument of the week award! Your prize is a complete tanking in credibility as a serious contributor to these threads.

 

[Ynos Yrros]

Well, streams getting crossed week after week? How exciting! I remember arguing with someone about PS3 never outselling Wii, will it?

I think it's possible for SMG to sell better this week than it did last week, word of mouth among japanese gamers, and themrealizing how wrong they were not buying this game in quantities beyond absurd should make the sales skyrocket, and Wii's as well.


Oh, and to the guy sayig that GT's sales are in a decline - you're insane. GT3 had over 5 years of sales (believe it or not, people are still buying it), GT4 had half of that time, and already reached 7-8 mln. The game is actually selling faster than GT3.

 

[charlequin]

Traditional gaming has declined everywhere. It's not as apparent as Japan, but it's happened.

Oddly enough, I think the success of the DS has actually provided some pretty significant evidence against this. After all, a lot of the DS success stories are not only tradition games, but more traditional games than what's appearing on consoles lately: 2d platformers, adventure games, and challenging, gameplay-driven dungeon RPGs.

The issue has a lot to do with the misleading concept of "hardcores vs. casuals." In actuality, there aren't just two categories. What's happened with the console market recently is that publishers have tried to appeal to people increasingly far down the hardcore spectrum, because they spend a lot of money -- but the result is alienating people who are game enthusiasts but not the hardest of the hardcore. Fighters are maybe the best example here -- as games appealed more and more to the tournament-playing, frame-counting hardcore, they also declined in overall success.

Framing it as a dualistic conflict, where Nintendo can appeal to only casuals or hardcores, really misses the greatest success of the DS, to my mind -- bringing about titles that appeal to more of the audience that loves games, and thereby fighting the decline of core gaming. I'd really prefer to see the Wii do the same, but at the moment I'm not seeing the evidence.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

ziran, if you look at the phenom sales of software on 360, you'll find your hypothesis is wrong. So far.

 

[Hcoregamer00]

Oddly enough, I think the success of the DS has actually provided some pretty significant evidence against this. After all, a lot of the DS success stories are not only tradition games, but more traditional games than what's appearing on consoles lately: 2d platformers, adventure games, and challenging, gameplay-driven dungeon RPGs.

The issue has a lot to do with the misleading concept of "hardcores vs. casuals." In actuality, there aren't just two categories. What's happened with the console market recently is that publishers have tried to appeal to people increasingly far down the hardcore spectrum, because they spend a lot of money -- but the result is alienating people who are game enthusiasts but not the hardest of the hardcore. Fighters are maybe the best example here -- as games appealed more and more to the tournament-playing, frame-counting hardcore, they also declined in overall success.

Framing it as a dualistic conflict, where Nintendo can appeal to only casuals or hardcores, really misses the greatest success of the DS, to my mind -- bringing about titles that appeal to more of the audience that loves games, and thereby fighting the decline of core gaming. I'd really prefer to see the Wii do the same, but at the moment I'm not seeing the evidence.

<3 <3

Can I hug you?

The best post of the thread.

 

[ethelred]

Oddly enough, I think the success of the DS has actually provided some pretty significant evidence against this.

Sure. So too does the fact that the PS2 has over a hundred games in the US that have sold over a million copies. So does the fact that the 360 is having fantastic software sales of hardcore games -- do the more than 2 million in sales for Gears of War tell us gaming is dying? Halo's 3 million launch? Hell, GTA: San Andreas came out after Vice City, and it sold more. 7 million copies in the US, and it was only released three years ago. Has the floor fallen out that quickly? Probably not.

The main problem here is that I'd say cherry picking a few isolated examples and attempting to derive massively overbroad generalizations applicable to the entire gaming industry is a pretty scatty tactic. It'd be just as idiotic to look at how Twilight Princess has just about doubled Wind Waker's sales and say "hey, gaming industry on the rise! Traditionalism am saved!"

Framing it as a dualistic conflict, where Nintendo can appeal to only casuals or hardcores, really misses the greatest success of the DS, to my mind -- bringing about titles that appeal to more of the audience that loves games, and thereby fighting the decline of core gaming. I'd really prefer to see the Wii do the same, but at the moment I'm not seeing the evidence.

Entirely true.

 

[Deku]

Framing it as a dualistic conflict, where Nintendo can appeal to only casuals or hardcores, really misses the greatest success of the DS, to my mind -- bringing about titles that appeal to more of the audience that loves games, and thereby fighting the decline of core gaming. I'd really prefer to see the Wii do the same, but at the moment I'm not seeing the evidence.

The anti-fans and displaced Sony goons didn't frame it as such, Nintendo did through their deeds and various speeches.

I generally agree with your sentiment. The DS is probably one of the best hardcore platforms in the market. But it appeals to a different kind of game enthusiasm and that's a problem to some people.

 

[ksamedi]

Everybody is comparing the third year of the DS to the first year of the Wii, thats where the fundamental flaw is in the argumants made.

 

[charlequin]

The anti-fans and displaced Sony goons didn't frame it as such, Nintendo did through their deeds and various speeches.

I agree. To a certain degree, that's a canny marketing strategy that's worked out by and large well for them, but I think it leads to some bad arguments when people take it to heart.

I generally agree with your sentiment. The DS is probably one of the best hardcore platforms in the market. But it appeals to a different kind of game enthusiasm and that's a problem to some people.

Yes. Speaking as someone who loves old-school RPGs, 2d platformers, and adventure games, though, I'm happier than a pig in shit.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

The anti-fans and displaced Sony goons didn't frame it as such, Nintendo did through their deeds and various speeches.

Isn't that audience that loves games but not the hardestcore games pretty much like the lapsed gamer they've talked about wanting to get back?

 

[Deku]

Isn't that audience that loves games but not the hardestcore games pretty much like the lapsed gamer they've talked about wanting to get back?

I just think of it as liking different kinds of games. I'm not keen on using 'hardcore' either as its a distinction that generally is used to elevate one group to a special status with no particular real world merit.

As I've said, there's different kinds of enthusiasm for games, just because one group of enthusiasts has been displaced and their fetishes shat on does not mean gaming has gone awry.

I quite like the variety and the return of old genres made possible by the DS. I am also looking to Civ IV and Populous DS, which is pretty much the two titles I've asked for since day one. We're only missing StarCraft now.

 

[ziran]

Congratulations, ziran! You win the misleading and utterly dishonest argument of the week award! Your prize is a complete tanking in credibility as a serious contributor to these threads.

Don't worry, you've never had any credibility with me

Oddly enough, I think the success of the DS has actually provided some pretty significant evidence against this. After all, a lot of the DS success stories are not only tradition games, but more traditional games than what's appearing on consoles lately: 2d platformers, adventure games, and challenging, gameplay-driven dungeon RPGs.

The issue has a lot to do with the misleading concept of "hardcores vs. casuals." In actuality, there aren't just two categories. What's happened with the console market recently is that publishers have tried to appeal to people increasingly far down the hardcore spectrum, because they spend a lot of money -- but the result is alienating people who are game enthusiasts but not the hardest of the hardcore. Fighters are maybe the best example here -- as games appealed more and more to the tournament-playing, frame-counting hardcore, they also declined in overall success.

Framing it as a dualistic conflict, where Nintendo can appeal to only casuals or hardcores, really misses the greatest success of the DS, to my mind -- bringing about titles that appeal to more of the audience that loves games, and thereby fighting the decline of core gaming. I'd really prefer to see the Wii do the same, but at the moment I'm not seeing the evidence.

In that quote I was really meaning home console sales, but I see your point.

Although, I don't think the amount of hardcore games appearing on DS suggests traditional gaming isn't declining from where it was, rather it has found a system where it can survive due to low dev costs. Developers can sell a few hundred thousand of a game and make money and this is good enough to keep every kind of gaming alive on the system. Edit - But, it is expecting a lot for handheld sales in every genre to be as big as a home console's.

ziran, if you look at the phenom sales of software on 360, you'll find your hypothesis is wrong. So far.

Looking at it now, you could be right. It was going out on a limb bringing in ww sales and I was going on the old data we used to get, where many genres were facing a decline, but I was probably being too Sony specific. It's clear the 360 is having great sw sales in NA and probably the UK in several genres.

 

[charlequin]

Isn't that audience that loves games but not the hardestcore games pretty much like the lapsed gamer they've talked about wanting to get back?

I actually didn't use the phrase because I know people hate it. :lol Also, "lapsed gamer" is really just a subset of it -- people like my friends from Rochester who still play Super Mario Kart on a rapidly aging SNES and talk wistfully about Chrono Trigger and Secret of Mana. There are other points on the continuum, like people who really only started to get worn down as the PS2 generation wore on, etc. I hate "casuals" and "hardcores" because it creates this false dichotomy, and on its own "lapsed gamers" can just turn it into a three-way false categorization, rather than a complicated set of demographics.

But, yes, to simplify: I think DS has effectively bridged the gap, shot the moon, what have you by appealing to non-gamers, casuals, lapsed gamers, hardcores, and every other spot in-between; right now I think the VC is the best thing the Wii has going for it in bringing in lapsed gamers (and it's very effective at doing that) but I don't think it's got the right genre spread so far to bring in the various categories of lapsed gamers, and it's showing worrisome numbers in terms of appealing to the hardcore.

 

[ethelred]

Don't worry, you've never had any credibility with me

That hurts me so.

Looking at it now, you could be right. It was going out on a limb bringing in ww sales and I was going on the old data we used to get, where many genres were facing a decline, but I was probably being too Sony specific.

The PS2 has continued seeing very strong software sales despite the emergence of the new console generation. Many industry analysts have cited this; so, too, have the publishers who continue to make money off of it. So that's wrong. It's also wrong when you say that "new traditional games aren't taking up the slack to a sufficient degree." Guitar Hero? God of War? Kingdom Hearts? Bioshock? Gears of War? Lost Planet? Saint's Row? Kingdom Hearts? Dead Rising? Do you posit all of these to be failures? Mass Effect, Rock Band, and Assassin's Creed are all out shortly -- is it your expectation that these will be failures as new IPs as well?

Your argument is flatly untrue regardless of whether one splits things out as Microsoft or Sony. Traditional gaming has not been declining. You can't point to a number of isolated series that have seen decline -- sometimes the normal cycle of series premiering to strongest sales at the start of a console's life and then seeing diminishing returns with successive entries; sometimes declining for other, series-specific reasons (like MGS3 suffering in sales due to the MGS2 bait and switch). You can't look at the entire gaming industry negatively through the prism of a handful of series anymore than you can rationally look at the amazing success of Twilight Princess or New! Super Mario Bros. and attempt to evaluate everything based on those. Your idea of looking at these cherry picked series and then trying to spin a broad narrative that encompasses the entire industry is the sort of stuff I'd expect from dopes like spwolf or Phoenix Down, but hey, aim high, Ziran, aim high.

 

[charlequin]

Although, I don't think the amount of hardcore games appearing on DS suggests traditional gaming isn't declining from where it was, rather it has found a system where it can survive due to low dev costs.

I think you're kind of missing the point. Things that are unquestionably "core games" are often performing better on DS than they were elsewhere in addition to being cheaper to make; Mario Kart and NSMB are two pretty good examples. This does represent a shift in what "core game" genres are successful, but that happens pretty often with hardware transitions anyway. My point is that the market of people who are interested in playing things that are unquestionably games isn't actually shrinking; that perception is more to do with a narrow definition of what sorts of games really count as "core."

Guitar Hero? God of War? Kingdom Hearts?

Exactly. Note that these are all real, unquestionable games, but they share something -- accessibility and mass appeal. That's helped make them some of the biggest breakout franchises of the past generation. It's games that appeal to a reasonably large but fundamentally limited audience -- like nitpicky action games, or ten thousand subtly different FPSes, or whatever -- that are most likely to see fatigue or decline.

 

[ziran]

I know. I've never been much of a Jonestowner.

Really? :lol

I think you're kind of missing the point. Things that are unquestionably "core games" are often performing better on DS than they were elsewhere in addition to being cheaper to make; Mario Kart and NSMB are two pretty good examples. This does represent a shift in what "core game" genres are successful, but that happens pretty often with hardware transitions anyway. My point is that the market of people who are interested in playing things that are unquestionably games isn't actually shrinking; that perception is more to do with a narrow definition of what sorts of games really count as "core."



Exactly. Note that these are all real, unquestionable games, but they share something -- accessibility and mass appeal. That's helped make them some of the biggest breakout franchises of the past generation. It's games that appeal to a reasonably large but fundamentally limited audience -- like nitpicky action games, or ten thousand subtly different FPSes, or whatever -- that are most likely to see fatigue or decline.

That's really what I was getting at, if there hasn't been a decline in traditional gaming outside Japan, I was wrong and extrapolating too far.


Edit - Like you said, transition happens every gen, and that's likely to be all that's happening now.

 

[Amir0x]

oh it's a ziran argument. these are fun!

I am playing SUPER MARIO GALAXY while reading a ziran argument. Groundbreaking.

 

[Scum]

oh it's a ziran argument. these are fun!

I am playing SUPER MARIO GALAXY while reading a ziran argument. Groundbreaking.

Curse you NoE for making us wait 'til Friday!

 

[ziran]

oh it's a ziran argument. these are fun!

I am playing SUPER MARIO GALAXY while reading a ziran argument. Groundbreaking.

I've learnt something, so it's been good. My hat's off to charlequin.

It's not groundbreaking to see you playing a new Nintendo game, but it is interesting if you really like it, I've stayed away from the official thread for spoilers. I see you weren't a fan of PH, and I can see where you were coming from.

SMG does seem pretty hardcore, which could really affect its sales in Japan. It's going to be interesting to see what it manages by mid Jan, it could drop pretty hugely this week.


Edit - Actually, I wonder if there are any similarities between SMG and Nintendo's strategy with PH, in practice? I know they wanted to make it as universal as possible but is that going to happen in a 3D Mario? It really seems more hardcore than their other games, and I can see the planet perspective putting people off. Is Nintendo going to succeed in managing their new audience with their old or is it going to end up mainly for their hardcore fans? Is it going to alienate their new/returning audience?

The game looks truly spectacular, it's going to be a shame if its sales put Nintendo off making this kind of game again. Although, it might further encourage them to make a 2D Mario for Wii which can only be a good thing.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Another DS vs Wii thing.

Top 10 DS third party games through the end of 2005
Tamagotchi Connection: 826K
Naruto SND3: 213K
DQ Rocket Slime: 200K
DBZ SW2: 186K
Naruto RPG 2: 121K
Mushiking: 109K
Harvest Moon DS: 106K
Ace Attorney: 102K
Feel the Magic: 100K
Pac-Pix: 99K

Top 10 Wii third party games as of now Well, as of a week or two ago.
DQ Swords: 453K
DBZ BT2: 158K
Ennichi no Tatsujin: 104K
Naruto GNT EX: 97K
One Piece UA: 95K
RE4 Wii: 88K
Power Pro Wii: 72K
Bleach SB: 69K
Fishing Master: 66K
Elebits: 62K

Can Wii catch up in the next two months? I doubt it will have a Tamagotchi-size success, but the rest is doable. Notables like REUC and Chocobo's Mysterious Dungeon should make their way onto the list, and existing games will end up with higher totals whenever we get the 2007 Top 100 or 500 lists.


Top 10 DS third party games through two years ago Well, a week or two before two years ago.
Tamagotchi Connection: 308K
Naruto SND3: 174K
Naruto RPG2: 90K
Ace Attorney: 82K
Pac-Pix: 75K
SD Gundam G Generation: 73K
Egg Monster Hero: 72K
Power Pocket Koushien: 66K
Harvest Moon DS: 59K
Yu-Gi-Oh! NT: 58K

 

[Dalthien]

In a total software comparison, Wii's early weak games get an advantage over DS's early weak games since we have complete Wii software data for about a quarter. Thus we had a chance to see games do things like crawl from 4K to 12K.

If you're worried about the extra quarter for Wii sales affecting your comparisons, don't forget that we also have complete DS/PSP sales for about the same time period (through Apr 10/05). These are Media Create numbers, but we also have complete Wii/PS3 Media Create sales here through Apr 1/07 if you are looking to keep the comparisons restricted to the same tracker - although I don't personally see the differences between the trackers as being significant enough to worry about.

Anyway, here are the MC DS/PSP numbers through Apr 10/05, which should allay your concerns about the extra Wii data through the first quarter.

 

[Jokeropia]

Not necessarily. DS has been selling pretty consistently in the 70k.

DS has been very consistent above 70k, so 55-70k would not be enough.

 

[Leonsito]

This is awesome, last week: 360 > PS3 and now PS3 > Wii :lol

 

[reilo]

This is awesome, last week: 360 > PS3 and now PS3 > Wii :lol

If it's really up to 70K like some predict, it will be PS3 > Wii + PS2 + X360.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

If it's really up to 70K like some predict, it will be PS3 > Wii + PS2 + X360.

That seems incredibly unlikely, though, if it did get ~36K on Sunday. That would leave 34K for the other six days, an average of 5.7K/day. The previous week, the average was 2.5K/day (MC).

 

[reilo]

That seems incredibly unlikely, though, if it did get ~36K on Sunday. That would leave 34K for the other six days, an average of 5.7K/day. The previous week, the average was 2.5K/day (MC).

It's unlikely, but not not that far fetched.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Yeah, I doubt it will make it that high, but really only because of the 7th day launch. Knowing the system was coming probably slowed sales on the days leading up to it.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

It's unlikely, but not not that far fetched.

But it IS far-fetched, taking the Sunday number at face value. Why would the 6 days immediately preceding a new cheaper SKU have a sales rate twice what it's ever been in the last two months? 40-50K seems more likely.

 

[P90]

Oddly enough, I think the success of the DS has actually provided some pretty significant evidence against this. After all, a lot of the DS success stories are not only tradition games, but more traditional games than what's appearing on consoles lately: 2d platformers, adventure games, and challenging, gameplay-driven dungeon RPGs.

The issue has a lot to do with the misleading concept of "hardcores vs. casuals." In actuality, there aren't just two categories. What's happened with the console market recently is that publishers have tried to appeal to people increasingly far down the hardcore spectrum, because they spend a lot of money -- but the result is alienating people who are game enthusiasts but not the hardest of the hardcore. Fighters are maybe the best example here -- as games appealed more and more to the tournament-playing, frame-counting hardcore, they also declined in overall success.

Framing it as a dualistic conflict, where Nintendo can appeal to only casuals or hardcores, really misses the greatest success of the DS, to my mind -- bringing about titles that appeal to more of the audience that loves games, and thereby fighting the decline of core gaming. I'd really prefer to see the Wii do the same, but at the moment I'm not seeing the evidence.

This post rocks.

 

[sprsk]

Why would it be up to 70k?

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Why would it be up to 70k?

Well, if you add them together, and carry the two, and then multiply the sum by the number of systems Sony has made divided by the number of Metal Gear Solid games that make sense, I think you'll have your answer, sp0rsk.

 

[Opus Angelorum]

If it's really up to 70K like some predict, it will be PS3 > Wii + PS2 + X360.

Not a chance.

 

[reilo]

But it IS far-fetched, taking the Sunday number at face value. Why would the 6 days immediately preceding a new cheaper SKU have a sales rate twice what it's ever been in the last two months? 40-50K seems more likely.

Okay, then let's say 50K.

 

[Eteric Rice]

Whats up to 70k?

 

[dionysus]

Well, if you add them together, and carry the two, and then multiply the sum by the number of systems Sony has made divided by the number of Metal Gear Solid games that make sense, I think you'll have your answer, sp0rsk.

Dividing by zero equals 70k?

 

[StevieP]

Wait, Guitar Hero is a hardcore game now? :lol

 

[charlequin]

Wait, Guitar Hero is a hardcore game now? :lol

Guitar Hero definitely qualifies as what I call a "core game" -- it's got fully interactive, success-driven gameplay; it rewards skill over luck; it benefits from skills learned in other games; it has the potential to be extremely difficult and rewards dilligence and skill with the possibility of mastery. It has, in short, everything that hardcore gamers love about games.

It's also a wildly successful casual game (for two reasons: its subject matter and its accessibility), but that doesn't detract in any way from its value as a core game, unless you're buying into the false dichotomy I talked about earlier.

 

[spwolf]

Why would it be up to 70k?

rock'n'roll baby...

 

[Meier]

I thought it was 4 ???

Why did you edit SMG and SSBB's numbers? I'm so confused.