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[Pureauthor]

The Virtual Boy was the first major chink in Nintendo's armour, and it is a noteworthy failure for that reason alone. I think the concept never really gelled with most people, and given the reaction to the system I'm surprised they even bothered releasing it.

The PS3 is certainly the bigger failure at this stage though, simply because it's supposed to be Sony's bread and butter and there is *nothing* waiting in the wings to back it up if it plops. Also, reaction to the system was quite good until they uttered the magic words "five hundred ninety nine". Even with that, I think a lot of people expected the system to magically do well anyway.

When all is said and done, I think PS3's going to end up in marketing textbooks just under "New Coke".

Seems as good a time to ask as any - Hey, Segata, how'd Pepsi Blue and Vanilla Coke sell?

 

[test_account]

Would you call the GameCube a failure?

Compared to what?

How about loss of mindshare, marketshare and money? In all these respects, PS3 is a bigger failure than anything before it. (It might not yet have lost as much money as the Xbox, but is well on it's way of doing so and has already wiped out all the profits gained from PS2.)

Money is also a factor, i agree to that. But no one here knows how much money Sony will lose or make on the PS3. I have no idea how much money the other system lost so i cant comment on that.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Seems as good a time to ask as any - Hey, Segata, how'd Pepsi Blue and Vanilla Coke sell?

Pepsi Blue was a disaster of Virtual Boy proportions. Vanilla Coke was a moderate success. It sold well, but not really well enough to justify keeping it on the shelves all the time, especially since it dilutes the brand name of the original moneymaker. I expect it will be rotated in seasonally now and then in its Vanilla and Black Cherry Vanilla form for a long time to come.

Pepsi Twist was a really strange animal. It started strong, sales completely flattened, then people somehow found it made for a good mix with alcohol and sales picked up again to at least an okay level. Then people got sick of using it as mix and it went completely flat again. It's another flavour I expect we'll see now and then as a seasonal thing.

 

[BishopLamont]

I'm comparing VB to GB because both are portable systems and both are made by Nintendo. GB was incredible successful and the VB was not. Altho VB was not directly a successor to the GB, nor was it intended to replace the GB, it was still a big failure compared to the original Gameboy.

When a company makes a gaming system that is so incredible popular you would expect that their next product, direct successor or not, would be popular as well (maybe not just as popular, but relatively). Just like the PS2 to PS3 situation. People expected PS3 to be very popular due to PS1 and PS2's popularity.

Gameboy was insane popular and has somewhat 1000+ games for it. VB didnt even sell a million units, it only had 30-40 games or so and it was discontuined the following year. Does things have to be a direct successor to be a failure?

It's a failure in it's own right, but comparing it to the GB makes no sense.

 

[Pureauthor]

Pepsi Blue was a disaster of Virtual Boy proportions.

Aw, man. I loved that stuff.

 

[test_account]

It's a failure in it's own right, but comparing it to the GB makes no sense.

Both are from Nintendo, VB was released after GB as the next portable system from Nintendo and both systems are portables, so why doesnt it make sense?

 

[BishopLamont]

Both are from Nintendo, VB was released after GB as the next portable system from Nintendo and both systems are portables, so why doesnt it make sense?

It's not the successor. It's like comparing iPod to ePod instead of iPod 2.

 

[Christine]

Seems as good a time to ask as any - Hey, Segata, how'd Pepsi Blue and Vanilla Coke sell?

I'm not Segata, but I can answer this: Pepsi Blue was bomba and Vanilla Coke did great. Coca-Cola Zero is the new black, tho - especially in its Cherry variant.

 

[test_account]

It's not the successor. It's like comparing iPod to ePod instead of iPod 2.

I know its not a direct successor, but what exactly doesnt make sense? Are you saying that its impossible to compare portable systems if they arent successors? And what is an ePod?

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

If it helps make distinctions:

Virtual Boy = Pepsi Blue
Playstation 3 = New Coke

Pepsi Blue certainly had money put behind it, but it was never intended to replace any product in the line, and certainly wasn't something Pepsi was leaning on. It sold very badly and went away very quickly.

New Coke had a ton of money put behind it, it was meant to replace the existing mainline product, and Coke was relying heavily on it. It sold better than say, Pepsi Blue, but it didn't sell anywhere near as well as Coca Cola Classic. Even given that, New Coke hung around for a while as both New Coke and Coke 2, and had a small following that justified its existence for a while.

The problem here is that Sony can't revert to "Coca Cola Classic". They just have to ride out "New Coke" until they have their next product ready which will hopefully capture the spirit of "Classic" rather than "New".

edit: Coke Zero is an amazing success. Astonishingly, it's barely eating into the Diet Coke market, all things considered. It's hitting the exact demographic they were aiming at.

 

[Jokeropia]

Money is also a factor, i agree to that. But no one here knows how much money Sony will lose or make on the PS3. I have no idea how much money the other system lost so i cant comment on that.

SCEI financial results from PS2 release through September 30 2007:

FY      Result
2001    -409,000,000
2002    623,000,000
2003    939,000,000
2004    650,000,000
2005    404,000,000
2006    75,000,00
2007   -1,969,000,000
2008   -1,078,000,000 (Q1+Q2 only)
Totals  -765,000,000

The net result is a $765 million loss, and this is despite all the money gained from PS2, PSP and the final years of PS1. Even if PS3 has the most incredible turnaround ever and ends up performing like the PS2, they will have a hard time breaking even on the system. I feel pretty confident right now that PS3 will lose more money than any other videogame system before it.

Loss of mind and marketshare is also important. When the VB flopped for example there was no other system there to take the market away from Nintendo.

 

[test_account]

The net result is a $765 million loss, and this is despite all the money gained from PS2, PSP and the final years of PS1. Even if PS3 has the most incredible turnaround ever and ends up performing like the PS2, they will have a hard time breaking even on the system. I feel pretty confident right now that PS3 will lose more money than any other videogame system before it.

Loss of mind and marketshare is also important. When the VB flopped for example there was no other system there to take the market away from Nintendo.

We'll see how it is in 5 years PS3 might be the system that lost most money and on that level it might be the biggest failure, that i agree on, but talking about failure on how the console itself preformed its far from the biggest.

EDIT: After seeing the thread that you linked to Xbox 360 seems to take the spot for most losing money. This list was also made before the 1 billion dollar red ring of death warranty. Poor MS Atleast they did make some money in 2008 on it and they do have all the PC software too though.

 

[Christine]

Loss of mind and marketshare is also important. When the VB flopped for example there was no other system there to take the market away from Nintendo.

With respect to loss of mind-share, I think that the Virtual Boy's failure may have had a negative impact on the perception of the N64. In a similar but not identical fashion, I think that PSP's struggles on the software side may have done damage to public perception of the PlayStation brand.

 

[Jokeropia]

EDIT: After seeing the thread that you linked to, 360 seems to take the spot for most losing money.

We'll see when the new reports are released and the thread is updated. SCEI's FY 2007 loss was the biggest ever for a videogame company, and I believe the Q1+Q2 2008 loss is the biggest half year loss ever as well. (The 360 warranty was extended in early July, the results in the thread run through September. It will obviously still have an impact on future results, though.)

 

[BishopLamont]

I know its not a direct successor, but what exactly doesnt make sense? Are you saying that its impossible to compare portable systems if they arent successors? And what is an ePod?

Comparing them won't be of any use since it's not going to behave the same, whereas if you compare it to the successor you can see how well it's performing.

 

[test_account]

We'll see when the new reports are released and the thread is updated. SCEI's FY 2007 loss was the biggest ever for a videogame company, and I believe the Q1+Q2 2008 loss is the biggest half year loss ever as well. (The 360 warranty was extended in early July, the results in the thread run through September. It will obviously still have an impact on future results, though.)

Ah ok, didnt remember it was back in July. I wonder how much of the loss is on PS3 though. Obviously its the biggest part, but what about the PSP?

 

[AdmiralViscen]

Why would the PSP be having losses at this part of the cycle? By all indications the hardware is sold at a profit and the meager software sales are gravy.

 

[felipeko]

EDIT: After seeing the thread that you linked to Xbox 360 seems to take the spot for most losing money. This list was also made before the 1 billion dollar red ring of death warranty. Poor MS Atleast they did make some money in 2008 on it and they do have all the PC software too though.

You'll have to take in account that's the entire division, of both companies..

I mean, on PS3 side you have PS2 profiting like hell and PSP also profiting. (Still, look how big was the damage with PS3, and probably it started doing it before the release with the money going into research)

And on X360 you have.. X360, that multitouch table and.. Zune?!


PS3 clearly is losing a hell a lot money than any other system..

 

[AdmiralViscen]

You'll have to take in account that's the entire division, of both companies..

I mean, on PS3 side you have PS2 profiting like hell and PSP also profiting. (Still, look how big was the damage with PS3, and probably it started doing it before the release with the money going into research)

And on X360 you have.. X360, that multitouch table and.. Zune?!


PS3 clearly is losing a hell a lot money than any other system..

Yea, but what about Virtual Boy?

 

[Grampa Simpson]

Pepsi Blue vs New Coke

This post makes me think that you're a soft drink historian.

 

[Graphics Horse]

This post makes me think that you're a soft drink historian.

It makes me wonder if there are forums dedicated to discussing weekly soft drink sales.

 

[felipeko]

Yea, but what about Virtual Boy?

GB > VB > GBA, right?
So GBA is the biggest turnaround in the history of the industry, it kinda negate VB failure

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

It makes me wonder if there are forums dedicated to discussing weekly soft drink sales.

Not weekly, but yes, there are.

I don't think the VB was anywhere near the size of the loss that the PS3 is so far, for a few reasons. First, Nintendo always makes money or cuts even on their hardware. Secondly, even though they had to slash and burn about 80% of the shipped hardware eventually, that number was like... 120,000 systems at most.

Nintendo knew they had a bomb on their hands before they even shipped one system or game. It really makes me wonder (again) why they even released it.

 

[Grecco]

Virtual Boy was the third pillar before the third pillar. No way in shape comparable to the giant flop called PS3


Oh and Vanilla coke rules

 

[Sage00]

This latest discussion just points out how much of a mess the games industry is. No wonder there's only 3 main companies actively involved in hardware production. Who would want to be in a market where you can sell MILLIONs of $200+ products and still fail?

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

This latest discussion just points out how much of a mess the games industry is. No wonder there's only 3 main companies actively involved in hardware production. Who would want to be in a market where you can sell MILLIONs of $200+ products and still fail?

It's a rich man's game, but it's far from the only biz like that. Imagine manufacturing cars. :O

 

[test_account]

Comparing them won't be of any use since it's not going to behave the same, whereas if you compare it to the successor you can see how well it's performing.

I compared them on a level that both were portable systems from the same company and that one was really successful while the other was a big failure. I dont see why you say it wont make any sense to compare 2 products that are in the same category, and thats even made by the same company.

Knowing how a system will behave, successor or not, is impossible. PS3 and Wii are crystal clear examples of this. Nintendo did of course belive that the Virtual Boy would do well, else they would never had made it. If VB had color screens and were $99 at launch i'm sure it would be doing great. Also, if VB was a smashing success i'm absolutely positive that people would credit the success of the Gameboy due to it's amazing success. Its just like people are crediting the PS1 due to the sucess of the PS2.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

See, I don't think Nintendo did think it would do well. I think Gunpei Yokoi did and no one else, and he used his clout to get it out there. The initial shipment numbers for the hardware were pathetically small, they only ended up with 23 games released on it, and the only title they ever bothered to support was Wario Land. The advertising budget for the system, even for launch, was very, very small, and they didn't even figure out a proper way for non-NP mags to have screenshots of games.

People talk a lot about things that were sent to die, but the VB is one of the most clear and true examples of that, in my opinion.

 

[test_account]

Why would the PSP be having losses at this part of the cycle? By all indications the hardware is sold at a profit and the meager software sales are gravy.

Thats why i asked. Please give me the numbers on how much Sony is making on the PSP, i would like to see them

You'll have to take in account that's the entire division, of both companies..

I mean, on PS3 side you have PS2 profiting like hell and PSP also profiting. (Still, look how big was the damage with PS3, and probably it started doing it before the release with the money going into research)

And on X360 you have.. X360, that multitouch table and.. Zune?!


PS3 clearly is losing a hell a lot money than any other system..

I know, but how much are they losing on Zune? Are you thinking of Origami, that UMPC? If so, i think that project is long dead. Afaik there havnt been any talk about it in a year or so.

GB > VB > GBA, right?
So GBA is the biggest turnaround in the history of the industry, it kinda negate VB failure

Nope, GB > VB > GBC > GBA No one said that VB was a true successor to GB either (or did you just say it? ).

 

[sphinx]

I have little to add, what with all the solid data and historical references commented so far.

There is but one thing that made me say " holy freakin crap, what a failure " last generation. I visited London in Sept 2005 and went to some of these "GAME" stores to see what was british gaming life like.

the chain was not carrying gamecube software..-_-... I asked the clerk! he told me only one big department store in the center of London could perhaps have GC software. This was LONDON, not some lost 500 people village and there was no GC stuff to be found???

When and if the PS3 reaches that kind of situation, then you can say "owned" or whatever your favorite mocking meme is. I doubt UK/EU will ever treat the PS3 like they treated the GC, that's why I doubt the PS3 will do as bad in overall sales.

 

[Grecco]

The virtual boy was just a distraction between the 16bit and 64bit systems. Nothing more. They couldnt get the Nintendo 64 in time to go against the Saturn and the PS.

 

[test_account]

See, I don't think Nintendo did think it would do well. I think Gunpei Yokoi did and no one else, and he used his clout to get it out there. The initial shipment numbers for the hardware were pathetically small, they only ended up with 23 games released on it, and the only title they ever bothered to support was Wario Land. The advertising budget for the system, even for launch, was very, very small, and they didn't even figure out a proper way for non-NP mags to have screenshots of games.

People talk a lot about things that were sent to die, but the VB is one of the most clear and true examples of that, in my opinion.

Maybe in the begining and Yokoi convinced them, but in the end i'm sure Nintendo did belive it would do good to some extend. They might have had some doubts, but using millions on developing a new system if they didt have any faith in it wouldnt be wise. They took a chance The first Wii shipment wasnt exactly the largest one either, but did that mean that Nintendo thought it wouldnt sell well? Its a thing in between of course, it wouldnt be wise to produce i.e 2 million units before even testing the market.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

I'm sure Nintendo did belive it would do good to some extend. They might have had some doubts, but using millions on developing a new system if they didt have any faith in it wouldnt be wise. They took a chance The first Wii shipment wasnt exactly the largest one either, but did that mean that Nintendo thought it wouldnt sell well? Its a thing in between of course, it wouldnt be wise to produce i.e 2 million units before even testing the market.

Ehn, you can't compare the first Wii shipment to the first VB shipment (which was also the last VB shipment). The first Wii shipment was smaller (but still much, much larger than the VB shipment) because it was launching worldwide and they literally couldn't make any more in time. The first VB shipment was small because there was absolutely zero confidence in the product from any angle.

I think when they were developing the system they probably thought it would do better, but just as it was quite apparent just before launch that the Wii would be a hit, it was equally apparent that the VB was going splash hard.

 

[test_account]

Ehn, you can't compare the first Wii shipment to the first VB shipment (which was also the last VB shipment). The first Wii shipment was smaller (but still much, much larger than the VB shipment) because it was launching worldwide and they literally couldn't make any more in time. The first VB shipment was small because there was absolutely zero confidence in the product from any angle.

I'm not comparing the size of the shipments of course, i compared them to both being small (all is relative of course). I think the first Wii shipment was at it's size due to unsure on how popular it would be. If they knew in advance that it would be as popular as it is today i'm sure the first Wii shipment would be bigger.

I think when they were developing the system they probably thought it would do better, but just as it was quite apparent just before launch that the Wii would be a hit, it was equally apparent that the VB was going splash hard.

Yep, maybe

 

[felipeko]

First Wiis shipments were HUGE. From that came the meme "you will be able to walk in a store in the launch day and pick one".

Everyone on gaf said Nintendo went crazy with 6 million units to March. I mean, that was Sony goal on PS3! (that they finally hit yay)

 

[DeadyFernGarden]

I have little to add, what with all the solid data and historical references commented so far.

There is but one thing that made me say " holy freakin crap, what a failure " last generation. I visited London in Sept 2005 and went to some of these "GAME" stores to see what was british gaming life like.

the chain was not carrying gamecube software..-_-... I asked the clerk! he told me only one big department store in the center of London could perhaps have GC software. This was LONDON, not some lost 500 people village and there was no GC stuff to be found???

When and if the PS3 reaches that kind of situation, then you can say "owned" or whatever your favorite mocking meme is. I doubt UK/EU will ever treat the PS3 like they treated the GC, that's why I doubt the PS3 will do as bad in overall sales.

I would concur. Much Like the American farmer who is heavily subsidized and year on year will sell at a loss to keep its produce on the shelf

 

[test_account]

First Wiis shipments were HUGE.

How huge?

 

[Xeke]

How huge?

Far more than either the 360 or PS3.

 

[felipeko]

How huge?

Look at the first dot. Wii first shipments were bigger than any other system.

 

[test_account]

Far more than either the 360 or PS3.

That doesnt tell me much since i'm not sure how big those shipments were PS3 was somewhat 80k in Japan, no? And somewhat 40k in Scandinavia. Thats pretty much all it know.

Look at the first dot. Wii first shipments were bigger than any other system.

Thanks. I didnt know it was that big, altho it was a worldwide launch, so to say. I wonder how long they produced to reach that number, since its amazing that they still cant supply USA with enough consoles.

 

[Xeke]

That doesnt tell me much since i'm not sure how big those shipments were PS3 was somewhat 80k in Japan, no? And somewhat 40k in Scandinavia. Thats pretty much all it know.




Thanks. I didnt know it was that big, altho it was a worldwide launch, so to say. I wonder how long they produced to reach that number, since its amazing that they still cant supply USA with enough consoles.

Yeah, but it should be reason enough to not compare the Wii to the VB unless you're going to compare both the 360 and PS3 to it based on launch shipments.

 

[test_account]

Yeah, but it should be reason enough to not compare the Wii to the VB unless you're going to compare both the 360 and PS3 to it based on launch shipments.

In retrospect that shipment comparison wasnt the best, i agree to that. I'm only human though

 

[jarrod]

Maybe, but even so it wouldnt be the worse. I think Virtual Boy is the worse. GB sold over 100 million, but VB didnt even sold 1 million afaik. This is handhelds though, but still.

Just a few minor corrections, but VB wasn't a "handheld", wasn't positioned as the Game Boy successor and GB had only moved about ~30-35 systems when VB was released. The original GB brick moved an additional ~5-10m afterwards and the GB Pocket (which released over a year later following the VB) moved about ~30m units total. That followed with GBC (technically a new platform itself though) moving a record ~50m units in just 3-4 years or so.

Game Boy was really just a nominal success initially (far, far less successful than NES/SNES comparatively at the same time). It wasn't really until the Pocket released, and later Pokemon landed, that the machine got a second wind became an incomparably huge games platform and money driver for Nintendo.

Oh, and before the N64, you could ask any people about videogames, they would have told you "super nes", or "nintendo". After that, video games and playstation were synonymous.

Unless you lived in the US or parts of Europe, in which case you'd have likely heard "SEGA" first.

Which brings up another point... SNES/SFC, while market leader overall worldwide, still placed second in some markets and was overall a less successful venture than NES/FC about everywhere by about every metric. It's not like N64 was Nintendo's first stumble, the decline started gradually and far earlier than that even... which is quite a bit unlike the PS1/PS2/PS3 transitions. Going from the unparalleled high of PS2 to the current doldrums of PS3 would've been like going from Famicom to GameCube in one step for Nintendo.

 

[The_Joint]

In retrospect that shipment comparison wasnt the best, i agree to that. I'm only human though

It was odd. I was half expecting you would start suggesting that all the consoles this generation were expected to fail based on initial shipments.

 

[stilgar]

Virtual Boy was the third pillar before the third pillar. No way in shape comparable to the giant flop called PS3

So right

Oh and Vanilla coke rules

So wrong


How can a man be so paradoxical ?

 

[test_account]

Just a few minor corrections, but VB wasn't a "handheld", wasn't positioned as the Game Boy successor and GB had only moved about ~30-35 systems when VB was released. The original GB brick moved an additional ~5-10m afterwards and the GB Pocket (which released over a year later following the VB) moved about ~30m units total. That followed with GBC (technically a new platform itself though) moving a record ~50m units in just 3-4 years or so.

Game Boy was really just a nominal success initially (far, far less successful than NES/SNES comparatively at the same time). It wasn't really until the Pocket released, and later Pokemon landed, that the machine got a second wind became an incomparably huge games platform and money driver for Nintendo.

I wrote portable systems in all my other posts since i know VB isnt a handheld like the GB, but both are portable systems. I see now that i did indeed write handhelds in my first post, but i ment portable there, it was a small typing mistake I also said that i know its not a true successor to the GB in my later posts, but still, both are portable systems where one was a big success and one wasnt and one of them was released right after the other (as there was no system in between them). Thats why i compared them.

It was odd. I was half expecting you would start suggesting that all the consoles this generation were expected to fail based on initial shipments.

Hehe, that would be stupid of me if i did that I never mentioned anything about that any systems were expected to fail this generation if the first shipment was low btw. If i see that i written something that wasnt correct or so i will admit it. I dont start to discuss things that i dont mean just so it should look like i'm right and what other say is wrong. Doing mistakes are what humans does so i dont know why someone has so hard to admit mistakes or why it should be so hard.

 

[jarrod]

I wrote portable systems in all my other posts since i know VB isnt a handheld like the GB, but both are portable systems. I see now that i did indeed write handhelds in my first post, but i ment portable there, it was a small typing mistake I also said that i know its not a true successor to the GB in my later posts, but still, both are portable systems where one was a big success and one wasnt and one of them was released right after the other (as there was no system in between them). Thats why i compared them.

Understood, but the comparison still falls apart when held up against PS2/PS3... it's like trying to make an example using say GBA & Pokemon Mini, which are actually more similar platforms (both being actual handheld gaming platforms) and fit all the same criteria you laid out.

 

[test_account]

Understood, but the comparison still falls apart when held up against PS2/PS3... it's like trying to make an example using say GBA & Pokemon Mini, which are actually more similar platforms (both being actual handheld gaming platforms) and fit all the same criteria you laid out.

I wouldnt say its the same. Pokémon Mini was a system that was based only on Pokémon (all the games are Pokémon related (not counting homebrew)). I would compare Pokémon Mini closer to the Mega Man Battle Network barcoder batler (altho this one is much more limited than the Pokémon Mini) due to both being systems based around 1 franchice and nothing more. Virtual Boy was a system like any other system, in the terms of having 3rd party games etc.

PS2/PS3 and GB/VB is not quite the same, PS3 is set to take over for the PS2 while VB was not set to take over for the GB in the same way, so im not i'm saying that its the same with PS2 and PS3 as it is with GB and VB. What i'm saying is that both GB and VB can in my opinion easily be compared due to both being portable systems with full 3rd party support (well.. VB didnt see too much support, but if it was more popular i'm sure it would have). The VB is not a spinoff or anything like that, it is a own fullblooded system that was released after the first Gameboy. VB did had potentials and it could have been a hit with a few ajustments like having color screens instead of red/black and cost around $99 (having 2x color LCD screens and being $99 would probly not be possible at the time though, but in theory). I wonder how a system like this would preform today.

 

[ethelred]

PS2/PS3 and GB/VB is not quite the same, thats not what i'm saying. What i'm saying is that both GB and VB can easily be compared due to both being portable systems with full 3rd party support (well.. VB didnt see too much support, but if it was more popular i'm sure it would have). The VB is not a spinoff or anything like that, it is a own fullblooded system that was released after the first Gameboy. VB did had potentials and it could have been a hit with a few ajustments like having color screens instead of red/black and cost around $99 (having 2x color LCD screens and being $99 would probly not be possible at the time though, but in theory). I wonder how a system like this would preform today.

Imagine if a new Virtual Boy were released and it outsold everything else in the market. :O

 

[Grampa Simpson]

Imagine if a new Virtual Boy were released and it outsold everything else in the market. :O

It would have to have some new unique control method. Like brainwaves.

Think of it. Lying in bed, VB Specs on, playing a Super Mario first person platformer.