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[KingDizzi]

This is what happens when you launch something a week before the biggest game in it's genre.

Pretty sure no DQ title released December time.

Anyway what is the consensus on GT5 in Japan? I'm hoping it passes a million but recall prologue being heavily bundled during holiday 2008. Think it was when Spec III released.

 

[Spiegel]

...

My point is pretty simple. A Sony console without massive third party support is always destined to fail because they are not Nintendo.

PSP didn't get that support because it was positioned by Sony as a PS2 portable and publishers didn't need another ps2, they were already developing games for one. That's why there were long drought periods

Why were they going to spend money and resources making psp games when they could just use the same money and resources and release those games on a bigger and proven userbase?
That's why they released ports and lite games.

Normally, a console can't live only from that but years later Sony was lucky that one of those ports became big (for multiple reasons).

You could say that psp failed for having a weak first party support and that would be true too.

This is what happens when you launch something a week before the biggest game in it's genre.

Last I checked, it turned out pretty well.

2009-09-12 Pokemon Heart Gold/Soul Silver
2009-09-17 Tales of Vesperia - 337k

 

[charlequin]

If you are so interested in our conversation that you feel the need to make this remark for the second time, at least you could have quoted the whole post and tell me where am I wrong.

Where you're wrong is that you're porting over a limited version of the whiny "bububut crappy support!" line that Wii people are (rightly) excoriated for using. The PSP did not launch with terrible support; it launched with a very solid slate of titles overall, with a number of publishers strongly committed to the system. And, in fact, the games that were successful largely supported the idea that people did want the PSP to be a portable PS2, either with ports of good PS2 titles or console-style games. The top five PSP titles from its first year included Mohan, Hot Shots Golf, Ridge Racers, and Musou -- all series carried right over from the PS2 and all fairly successful.

The reason that you're wrong is that you're trying to justify an inaccurate narrative about the PSP's success. As duckroll has spelled out in more detail, almost any major publisher who's putting out significant PSP titles worth looking forward to now was already doing so early on -- S-E was, Konami was, Atlus was at least experimenting with the platform, etc. The idea that Japan saw a surge of new entrants to the PSP field or people recommitting after clearly moving away from the platform isn't really justifiable.

 

[schuelma]

Where you're wrong is that you're porting over a limited version of the whiny "bububut crappy support!" line that Wii people are (rightly) excoriated for using. .

Wait I thought everybody agreed that the Wii got crappy support from the start.

 

[Liabe Brave]

This is what happens when you launch something a week before the biggest game in it's genre.

There are at least 5 million Wii owners for whom XIII is a complete non-factor. Graces' poor performance has nothing to do with that.

 

[Hero of Legend]

I forget, does Media Create or Famitsu include copies sold in hardware bundles? How many Graces hardware bundles were shipped?

 

[schuelma]

I forget, does Media Create or Famitsu include copies sold in hardware bundles? How many Graces hardware bundles were shipped?

I read somewhere that there was like 125K bundles so the real number is like 325K


VERSPERIA PS3= OWNED

 

[Eteric Rice]

Last I checked, it turned out pretty well.

2009-09-12 Pokemon Heart Gold/Soul Silver
2009-09-17 Tales of Vesperia - 337k

I really doubt DS games would effect console game sales, honestly. Now other console releases? Yes.

Really, if you're deciding which $60-70 dollar game you're going to buy out of the two, which do you think you would pick? I think a lot of people just waited to get FFXIII, expecting a bigger bang for their buck.

I wonder if ToG will get a re-release? Maybe with extra content or something in that new program Nintendo has set up.

There are at least 5 million Wii owners for whom XIII is a complete non-factor. Graces' poor performance has nothing to do with that.

A lot of the people who buy FF and Tales games are of the otaku type. They usually own multiple consoles. Given a choice between the two, which do you think they would pick?

 

[Hero of Legend]

I read somewhere that there was like 125K bundles so the real number is like 325K


VERSPERIA PS3= OWNED

Joking aside, is that true?

I wonder if ToG will get a re-release? Maybe with extra content or something in that new program Nintendo has set up.

All that really is, is just the game itself, inside a sleeve showing it's now budget priced, I highly doubt we'll ever see any content additions.

 

[Chris1964]

FFXIII affected Graces to a (small) degree but wasn't the main reason for it's performance.

 

[schuelma]

Joking aside, is that true?

.

No

 

[NeonZ]

There are at least 5 million Wii owners for whom XIII is a complete non-factor. Graces' poor performance has nothing to do with that.

Do you really think that the audience of Tales and Final Fantasy are that different?

Obviously Tales' is smaller, but I'd think that there's a lot of crossover between the two, considering how both are games in the same genre with similar styles, even if Tales' graphical style isn't nearly as realistic as FF's and their battle systems are different.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Last I checked, it turned out pretty well.

2009-09-12 Pokemon Heart Gold/Soul Silver
2009-09-17 Tales of Vesperia - 337k

Hmm. Based on the Vesperia:HGSS and Graces:XIII ratio, it sounds like a recipe for selling 10% as well as the more successful game. Who's with me on releasing a 2D platformer a week before the next SMB?

In other words, NSMB is totally surpassing Diamond/Pearl soon. Not exactly a fair comparison in a few ways (Platinum says hi), but after this happens, and NSMB Wii's eventually surpassing of Wii Fit (well... this is hard to measure too), the GC will be the sole Nintendo platform in which a Mario game wasn't at the top.

I don't know. I think N64's Mario Kart 64 and GCN's Super Smash Bros. Melee each have a piece of the puzzle.

 

[Hero of Legend]

No

Well I was hoping for an honest answer, oh well.

 

[krea]

This is what happens when you launch something a week before the biggest game in it's genre.

4 weeks later: "End of Eternity and Star Ocean was too big"

8 weeks later: "No holidays, christmas would be the better option"

come on! the wii isn't a ps2, for the third parties, winning eleven is the best example.

 

[schuelma]

Well I was hoping for an honest answer, oh well.

I don't think we ever found out the exact number but it probably wasn't more than 15K or so, and yes, I believe they are tracked.

 

[thestopsign]

Pokemon and Tales have a completely different audience, while Tales and Final Fantasy don't. The comparison is null.

 

[Kurosaki Ichigo]

Ah, yes. The sweet taste of bullshit going on to spin Graces once again.

 

[Nirolak]

Ah, yes. The sweet taste of bullshit going on to spin Graces once again.

We need next week's sales so we can debate some new titles. It's getting a bit ridiculous lately. :lol

 

[NeonZ]

come on! the wii isn't a ps2, for the third parties, winning eleven is the best example.

I'd say that the recent Musou game is a better example. Wii's Winning Eleven always was a late release. Anyway, at this point, it's pretty obvious the Wii isn't the PS2, but Graces getting lower sales than the Symphonia spin off which didn't even have a proper leveling system for most of the cast isn't a normal situation.

 

[schuelma]

Graces is going to haunt this thread for years.

 

[Linkup]

Wait I thought everybody agreed that the Wii got crappy support from the start.

Similar to how a goal post can move, so does history rewrite itself.

 

[velvet_nitemare]

4 weeks later: "End of Eternity and Star Ocean was too big"

8 weeks later: "No holidays, christmas would be the better option"

come on! the wii isn't a ps2, for the third parties, winning eleven is the best example.

Agree that the Wii isn't the PS2 for 3rd parties, but Winning Eleven isn't the best example to use, since the Wii versions get released later.

 

[duckroll]

Well I was hoping for an honest answer, oh well.

The first thing you need to realize is that schuelma is your friend. He is on your side. He would love to see the Wii do well, and for third party Wii games to sell really well. When even he is starting to troll you, I think you need to take a step back and think about why. :lol

Spoiler

Hint: Tales of Graces is a lost cause, time to move on.

 

[velvet_nitemare]

Graces is going to haunt this thread for years.

Same reaon MHTri is brought up as proof that the Wii can pull healthy sales traditional 3rd party recognized IP's, Graces will be used as a counterpoint. Especially because it was advertized, and still tanked.

 

[schuelma]

The first thing you need to realize is that schuelma is your friend. He is on your side. He would love to see the Wii do well, and for third party Wii games to sell really well. When even he is starting to troll you, I think you need to take a step back and think about why. :lol

Wow after all these years I'm still nothing but the equivalent of Hero of Legend's slightly smarter Ntard cousin to ducky

I guess I need to enroll in another session of charlequin's "How to be an Unbiased Sales Ager" class.

 

[Kurosaki Ichigo]

Its all Famitsu fault. We had our weekly routine all planned and they just shat on it. We would be discussing first day sales now about how Valkyria PSP is doing compared to Valkyria PS3, yet we are back at Graces.

Damn you, Famitsu. Damn you. Better give us that Top50+sell-through every week to try to start making up for this.

Lets show them predicting for next week titles going by Media Create instead. Hah, didn't see that coming eh Famitsu?

Spoiler

do we agree on using DQVI, EOE PS3, EOE 360 and Ar Tonelico 3?

 

[Oldschool]

No first day sales for Valkyria chronicles 2 yet?

 

[krea]

Agree that the Wii isn't the PS2 for 3rd parties, but Winning Eleven isn't the best example to use, since the Wii versions get released later.

Last year, the wii version came with the psp and ps2 version. the psp and ps2 (afaik) versions sells better than the wii version.

 

[schuelma]

Its all Famitsu fault. We had our weekly routine all planned and they just shat on it. We would be discussing first day sales now about how Valkyria PSP is doing compared to Valkyria PS3, yet we are back at Graces.

Damn you, Famitsu. Damn you. Better give us that Top50+sell-through every week to try to start making up for this.

Lets show them predicting for next week titles going by Media Create instead. Hah, didn't see that coming eh Famitsu?

Spoiler

do we agree on using DQVI, EOE PS3, EOE 360 and Ar Tonelico 3?

Sounds like a plan.

 

[Nirolak]

Spoiler

do we agree on using DQVI, EOE PS3, EOE 360 and Ar Tonelico 3?

Sounds good to me. I'm looking forward to predicting again.

Wow after all these years I'm still nothing but the equivalent of Hero of Legend's slightly smarter Ntard cousin to ducky

I guess I need to enroll in another session of charlequin's "How to be an Unbiased Sales Ager" class.

Clearly the answer is to play games on more platforms. Does wonders for getting different perspectives.

 

[boiled goose]

Similar to how a goal post can move, so does history rewrite itself.

ummm....

DQ swords?

 

[schuelma]

Clearly the answer is to play games on more platforms. Does wonders for getting different perspectives.

Wow, you've unlocked the key to objectivity!

Thanks for that buddy!

 

[duckroll]

Same reaon MHTri is brought up as proof that the Wii can pull healthy sales traditional 3rd party recognized IP's, Graces will be used as a counterpoint. Especially because it was advertized, and still tanked.

Instead of using either as a point or counterpoint, isn't it more productive to say that traditional third party core games can indeed sell on the Wii, but it is not a foregone conclusion that they will sell well across any genre and demographic as long as they are of quality and is marketed?

The way I see it, the Wii has the highest user base, but definitely not the highest user base across all demographics and fan bases. This is very obvious and hence the discussion would be more interesting to analyze what sorts of franchises and genres could do very well on the Wii but are not on it yet. Also, what genres and franchises would actually be counter productive to attempt to put on the Wii?

To illustrate the point, I'll suggest that things which could certainly do well on the Wii: Kingdom Hearts, Final Fantasy Tactics (Fire Emblem sells!), more Monster Hunter, Dragon Quest, maybe Phantasy Star. Things which should never even be considered for the Wii: Ryu ga Gotoku, Metal Gear Solid, Ace Combat.

Wow after all these years I'm still nothing but the equivalent of Hero of Legend's slightly smarter Ntard cousin to ducky

I guess I need to enroll in another session of charlequin's "How to be an Unbiased Sales Ager" class.

Hey, I never said that! I'm just pointing out to him that as far as being "on his side" goes, you are so much closer than I will ever, ever, ever be. :lol

 

[Nirolak]

Wow, you've unlocked the key to objectivity!

Thanks for that buddy!

I wasn't being entirely serious. Hence the "".

 

[velvet_nitemare]

Last year, the wii version came with the psp and ps2 version. the psp and ps2 (afaik) versions sells better than the wii version.

But still, it's delayed in comparison to the PS360 versions. Konami obviously want you to buy it on those platforms. Also, the Wii versions have been delayed all generation long, so there's that stigma that they're like side games. Plus the control scheme is pretty different, which can be polarizing, but now they've added classic pro evo controls.

Also, the Wii audience seems a tad resistant to yearly franchise iterations with few upgrades.

 

[gerg]

Wow, you've unlocked the key to objectivity!

Thanks for that buddy!

Hey, at least charlequin talks to you now and then... :lol

Instead of using either as a point or counterpoint, isn't it more productive to say that traditional third party core games can indeed sell on the Wii, but it is not a foregone conclusion that they will sell well across any genre and demographic as long as they are of quality and is marketed?

The way I see it, the Wii has the highest user base, but definitely not the highest user base across all demographics and fan bases. This is very obvious and hence the discussion would be more interesting to analyze what sorts of franchises and genres could do very well on the Wii but are not on it yet. Also, what genres and franchises would actually be counter productive to attempt to put on the Wii?

To illustrate the point, I'll suggest that things which could certainly do well on the Wii: Kingdom Hearts, Final Fantasy Tactics (Fire Emblem sells!), more Monster Hunter, Dragon Quest, maybe Phantasy Star. Things which should never even be considered for the Wii: Ryu ga Gotoku, Metal Gear Solid, Ace Combat.

The thing is, I don't think that the values of the 18-35 male fanbase in Japan are as clearly known as they are for their counterparts in the West.

For example, is it not possible that MH3 would have sold more had it been released on the PS3?

This isn't to say that there aren't games which would sell well on the Wii, but I don't think that there's any third-party series (outside of, say, Dragon Quest or Kingdom Hearts) that would suit the Wii especially well.

 

[Liabe Brave]

A lot of the people who buy FF and Tales games are of the otaku type. They usually own multiple consoles. Given a choice between the two, which do you think they would pick?

Do you really think that the audience of Tales and Final Fantasy are that different?

My point was that there are (at least) 5 million Wii owners who do not own a PS3. Sure, you can take Eteric Rice's tack that "well, all the Tales fans who own a Wii also probably own a PS3". But that's the equivalent of saying that Graces has no appeal to any of the 5 million folks who only own a Wii. That seems to me to be a more cogent reason for underperformance than the release of another game in the genre, no matter how massive.

Besides, if we try to guess the mentality of consumers that game can be played the other direction too. To wit: Most Tales fans are otaku type, which means they're savvy about the discounting protocols of retailers. FF XIII was extremely expensive at launch. PS3-only otaku had no other RPG choices, so they were boned. But the guys with PS3 and Wii could buy Graces, beat it in three weeks, and then get FF XIII for cheap. Voila!

Because there's definitely some overlap in the fanbases, my saying that XIII had "nothing" to do with Graces' performance is perhaps too strong. But to say that it was the primary reason for it--which Eteric Rice implied--is too extreme a converse.

 

[velvet_nitemare]

Instead of using either as a point or counterpoint, isn't it more productive to say that traditional third party core games can indeed sell on the Wii, but it is not a foregone conclusion that they will sell well across any genre and demographic as long as they are of quality and is marketed?

The way I see it, the Wii has the highest user base, but definitely not the highest user base across all demographics and fan bases. This is very obvious and hence the discussion would be more interesting to analyze what sorts of franchises and genres could do very well on the Wii but are not on it yet. Also, what genres and franchises would actually be counter productive to attempt to put on the Wii?

To illustrate the point, I'll suggest that things which could certainly do well on the Wii: Kingdom Hearts, Final Fantasy Tactics (Fire Emblem sells!), more Monster Hunter, Dragon Quest, maybe Phantasy Star. Things which should never even be considered for the Wii: Ryu ga Gotoku, Metal Gear Solid, Ace Combat.

At a glance, those seem to be titles that would pull decent numbers on any of the platforms. I think the Wii could have benefited from a new quality 3rd party IP that did great numbers. Too late for that now.

 

[schuelma]

This is very obvious and hence the discussion would be more interesting to analyze what sorts of franchises and genres could do very well on the Wii but are not on it yet. Also, what genres and franchises would actually be counter productive to attempt to put on the Wii?

To illustrate the point, I'll suggest that things which could certainly do well on the Wii: Kingdom Hearts, Final Fantasy Tactics (Fire Emblem sells!), more Monster Hunter, Dragon Quest, maybe Phantasy Star. Things which should never even be considered for the Wii: Ryu ga Gotoku, Metal Gear Solid, Ace Combat.

Now this could be constructive.

As far as genre's/franchises that can sell, I think action adventure stuff like Monster Hunter and Musou games are at least viable. I think a Phantasy Star could work if it taps into the MH Tri base a bit.

I would say that maybe outside of Kingdom Hearts/DQ RPG's should just stay off the platform. Neither 3rd parties or Nintendo has cultivated any sort of base.


Oh and I still think a real honest to goodness Resident Evil effort would prove worthwhile for Capcom.

(I realize I basically just repeated what you said)

I'm just pointing out to him that as far as being "on his side" goes, you are so much closer than I will ever, ever, ever be. :lol

Personal insults are not allowed, even from a mod! :lol

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Last year, the wii version came with the psp and ps2 version. the psp and ps2 (afaik) versions sells better than the wii version.

WSWE 12: PES 2009 PS3/X360 2008-11-27
WSWE 12: PES 2009 PS2/PSP 2009-01-29
WSWE Playmaker 2009 Wii 2009-05-14

The previous year things were a bit closer, though.
WSWE 2008 PS2/PS3/X360 2007-11-12
WSWE Ubiquitous Edition 2008 2008-01-24
WSWE Playmaker 2008 2008-02-21

 

[duckroll]

Personal insults are not allowed, even from a mod! :lol

I'm sorry, will you ever forgive me?

 

[schuelma]

I'm sorry, will you ever forgive me?

I suppose.

 

[krea]

WSWE 12: PES 2009 PS3/X360 2008-11-27
WSWE 12: PES 2009 PS2/PSP 2009-01-29
WSWE Playmaker 2009 Wii 2009-05-14

The previous year things were a bit closer, though.
WSWE 2008 PS2/PS3/X360 2007-11-12
WSWE Ubiquitous Edition 2008 2008-01-24
WSWE Playmaker 2008 2008-02-21

I mean the "last october" last year - okay?

 

[RPGManiac]

Nice Wii sales this week

 

[duckroll]

I suppose.

;_;

 

[freddy]

I mean the "last october" last year - okay?

okay!

 

[Nirolak]

Personal insults are not allowed, even from a mod! :lol

Please note I didn't mean to insult you either there.

I think you're quite objective honestly. Much more than a very large portion of GAF.

 

[thestopsign]

Just to clarify what I said above. I wasn't protecting Graces, I was just saying that I don't think it was a valid comparison.

 

[krea]

At a glance, those seem to be titles that would pull decent numbers on any of the platforms. I think the Wii could have benefited from a new quality 3rd party IP that did great numbers. Too late for that now.

i think, the wii (in japan but worldwide too) have a "nintendo blockbuster"-mentality, the nintendo brandmark is very important.