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[Duck of Death]

The latest conquest in my quest to catch up on all the PS2's gaming goodness is Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty. For years I have heard people complaining about the insane storyline, laborious cut scenes and codec sequences, and the fact that you do not play Snake for most of the game. Needless to say, I went into the game expecting the worse.

And I came out loving the game.

Although I could discuss the gameplay mechanics, I think it is better to discuss the game's most controversial aspect: it's story. Or, to be more specific, the climax of the story.

!!!!!SPOILERS AHOY!!!!! OMG DON'T ##L@@K##







Well, the weird climax certainly wasn't expected. The crazy twist about the GW and S3 certainly could seem a bit much at first. I didn't know what to think, but then it hit me. Metal Gear Solid 2's story is self-reflexive. It is a game about games. Ocelot's speech about the S3 program is probably Kojima's own philosophy about game design. Just read through this except of Ocelot's speech:

Ocelot : Given the right situation, the right story, anyone can be shaped
into Snake. Even rookies can fight like men of experience. An
instant creation of genius -- and this training kernel will
provide more than enough data to formulate such a program. You,
Dead Cell, Olga -- you're all nothing but pawns placed to create
the perfect simulation.

Is this what Kojima wants to achieve in his games? If so, does the design of the Metal Gear Solid games achieve this?

This is why I ended up liking the end of the story more than the rest. The "crazy" isn't that crazy at all. It is different, unexpected, and bold (just look at how many people were pissed off).

Well, what do you all think? Did anyone else interpret the story like this? Does the story work without this extra meaning? What else did people like about the story (or gameplay, if we want to go there)? Or is the game truly awful?

Oh, and about the thread title: Has anyone ever counted how many times Jack says "What!?" in the game? My bet it would comparable to how many times Goodfellas says fuck :lol

 

[Lord Error]

Man, I think you're too late with this. Even I'm bored of arguing about MGS2 story :\

Anyways, glad you liked the game, I really loved it too. I thought story was just fine, but the way it was told could have been better and more compact to make it more interesting. Now get MGS3 and like it even more!

 

[Ash Housewares]

I just interpreted the story as bad

 

[siege]

Yep. I get it, but I still don't like it.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Is this what Kojima wants to achieve in his games? If so, does the design of the Metal Gear Solid games achieve this?

That's what he wanted for MGS2. With all the love Solid gets, Raiden was meant to be the exact opposite. Solid looks gritty, Raiden is a pretty boy, Solid likes killing because its what he does, Raiden doesn't want to do it under any costs, Solid can be an ass, Raiden's a nice guy. But when it was all said and done he was able to do what Solid did.

 

[Duck of Death]

Man, I think you're too late with this. Even I'm bored of arguing about MGS2 story :\

I know there were a lot of threads discussing this on the old GAF, but I did a search and didn't find any compelling threads on neo GAF to read

 

[bud]

That's what he wanted for MGS2. With all the love Solid gets, Raiden was meant to be the exact opposite. Solid looks gritty, Raiden is a pretty boy, Solid likes killing because its what he does, Raiden doesn't want to do it under any costs, Solid can be an ass, Raiden's a nice guy. But when it was all said and done he was able to do what Solid did.

He even surpassed him, Solidus Snake and Big Boss.

 

[WhippinSean]

Ocelot's speech about the S3 program is probably Kojima's own philosophy about game design. Just read through this except of Ocelot's speech:

"Ocelot : Given the right situation, the right story, anyone can be shaped
into Snake. Even rookies can fight like men of experience. An
instant creation of genius -- and this training kernel will
provide more than enough data to formulate such a program. You,
Dead Cell, Olga -- you're all nothing but pawns placed to create
the perfect simulation."

Right... and even more strage... notice when it says Dead Cell... if you look back at that now... could that be a shot at Splinter Cell? Dead Cell... get it? I wouldn't doubt it if that was indeed a pot shot at Splinter Cell. Because MGS2 came out before SC did I think... but they knew it was coming obviously.

What do you think?

 

[Ash Housewares]

"Ocelot : Given the right situation, the right story, anyone can be shaped
into Snake. Even rookies can fight like men of experience. An
instant creation of genius -- and this training kernel will
provide more than enough data to formulate such a program. You,
Dead Cell, Olga -- you're all nothing but pawns placed to create
the perfect simulation."

Right... and even more strage... notice when it says Dead Cell... if you look back at that now... could that be a shot at Splinter Cell? Dead Cell... get it? I wouldn't doubt it if that was indeed a pot shot at Splinter Cell. Because MGS2 came out before SC did I think... but they knew it was coming obviously.

What do you think?

I think the story was bullshit enough without piling more shit on top of it

 

[SolidSnakex]

He even surpassed him, Solidus Snake and Big Boss.

In terms of being a pure badass though, no one surpasses

 

[Duck of Death]

Speaking of badass, MGS 2 had one truly awesome moment, when Raiden was firing at Fortune and the bullet swerves away from her and hits Vamp in the head :lol

 

[ge-man]

I certainly subscribe to your interpetation. I also think that Kojima made a pretty interesting observation about danger in the future. The old Metal Gear's played up the fear of nuclear war. And while obliteration by nuclear attacks is still something to be concern about in the post cold-war era, the real battles seem to be occuring in the realm of information. As we become more connected and flow of that information is becomes more and more concentrated in the hands of a few, it becomes easier to manipulate the public mind. The frightening element about MGS2 wasn't the Metal Gears themselves, it was the knowlegde that world could be shaped by a handful of individuals hidden from our view, that our sense of freedom that we have come to value in the modern era could be nothing more than an illusion.

Like the Matrix and Blade Runner, the story addresses the scariest things about Descartes' idea of the Cogito. It's an old problem that won't go away and in some respect it is heightened by the way our world has evolved recently.

 

[FightyF]

ge-man hit the nail on the head (as far as how I interpreted it).

At the same time, I did recognize exactly what you said DoD. Going a bit further, games are media, and the media can control us.

That was the meaning behind my music alias "nrXic", that we are all annoerexic to some degree, as we are all controlled by the media in some sense (our fashion, our likes and dislikes). Not that this is a bad thing, it's a completely natural thing...but we should be aware of it.

 

[Dr_Cogent]

I just interpreted the story as bad

Worse than that IMO - it was downright stupid.

 

[Stinkles]

There is a difference between deep and senseless. That appears to be lost here.

 

[KilledByBill]

Right... and even more strage... notice when it says Dead Cell... if you look back at that now... could that be a shot at Splinter Cell? Dead Cell... get it? I wouldn't doubt it if that was indeed a pot shot at Splinter Cell. Because MGS2 came out before SC did I think... but they knew it was coming obviously.

What do you think?

That's not correct, or at least I doubt that's what Kojima was thinking. Dead Cell is actually based off of the Navy Warefare Development Command's Red Cell:

One of the most important Ops function is to provide a "Red Cell," or adversary view, of emerging concepts. By taking the enemy's perspective, the Red Cell can more easily pinpoint weaknesses and vulnerabilities. This approach covers the entire spectrum of warfare, including the increasingly important area of Information Operations. The interactive process between concepts, experiments, and Red teaming will ensure that only robust, well-rounded innovations are introduced as fleet doctrine. The Red Cell also takes the lead in the development and coordination of live and simulated Opposition Forces (OPFOR) for experimentation and war gaming. During recent Fleet Battle Experiments this has included arranging for the use or construction of realistic adversary target weapons systems.

In MGS2 Dead Cell was supposed to function much like the real life Red Cell. A kind of "Devil's advocate" to prepare for possible terrorist operations.

 

[Demigod Mac]

The endless montage of backstabs at the end... Comical. They only ceased because MGS2 eventually ran out of villains to backstab each other.

 

[ronito]

Kojima was trying to make a statement about controlling people by controlling the information they get, but as a story teller he failed...miserably. Falling into a bit of seriousness followed by silliness. Of course we could call it "post-modern" in which case it's a raging success and genuis!

Fission Mailed!

 

[Date of Lies]

the funny thing is, the people that bought into the hype and got the game on release were dissapointed while the people that played it years later without the hype or fame backing it up have more chance of liking it.


I loved MGS2, even moreso than MGS3.

 

[Mallrat83]

MGS 2's story is fantastic. Made the game for me. I always found it funny that I played the Metal Gear Solid series for the story, and the Splinter Cell series for the gameplay.

Anyways, back on topic. You know what needs to happen is that Kojima has to write a book or something that explains the storyline from Metal Gear Solid 3 on out to Metal Gear Solid 2.

 

[themadcowtipper]

 

[Triumph]

I thought everyone knew by now that Kojima outsourced the storywriting duties for MGS2 to a chimpanzee with a crack habit? I mean, it is KNOWN and all.

 

[ToyMachine228]

I personally enjoyed the story of MGS2. I didn't like Raiden, but the storyline overall was very engaging.

 

[Bishman]

Raiden = you

 

[Ranger X]

I love those Matrix / Blade Runner type of stories. MGS2 was having one of the most well done, interesting, deep and intelligent story i've ever seen in a videogame.
There is some gameplay parts that i'm not fond of but all in all, it was just as good in overall as the first Metal Gear Solid. Nice to see that some other people appreciated it.

 

[Dr_Cogent]

PA nailed that bitch right between the fucking eyes.

 

[Goreomedy]

I dug the MGS2 storyline, as I'm a fan of zany melodrama. But I did think the pacing was entirely off. Snake Eater has that balance of gameplay/story perfected, imho.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

People that like the story actually scare me and I wouldn't want to be near them in real life. Their ablilty to make something out of nothing borders and still appear to make normal conversation is terrifying.

 

[speedpop]

I'll get back to this thread when I replay the game.

 

[MarkRyan]

Right... and even more strage... notice when it says Dead Cell... if you look back at that now... could that be a shot at Splinter Cell? Dead Cell... get it? I wouldn't doubt it if that was indeed a pot shot at Splinter Cell. Because MGS2 came out before SC did I think... but they knew it was coming obviously.

What do you think?

I don't think Splinter Cell existed when MGS2 came out