Support NeoGAF

[SidViscous]

Construction seems to be one of those areas where modern technology appears to be inferior to older building methods, at least as far as longevity is concerned. When you hear about a collapsed building these days, it‘s usually something that was build relatively recently, meaning within the last few decades. On the other hand, you almost never hear about this kind of thing happening to any of those old cathedrals or castles in Europe, or to mosques, temples or palaces in other parts of the world.

There are buildings that have stood for over a thousand years which are still being used to this day, while I have a hard time imagining that any building built after 1950 will still stand a thousand years from now.

Well, they only really have two criteria - build something which ticks all required regulations, and build it for as cheaply as possible so they can sell it on for the highest margins. You've got CAD tools now which will let you know if you can get away with using one less RSJ, or weaker concrete etc. Historically before we had all these other tools and materials you had to either build it properly or not build it at all.

 

[Ownage]

Construction seems to be one of those areas where modern technology appears to be inferior to older building methods, at least as far as longevity is concerned. When you hear about a collapsed building these days, it‘s usually something that was build relatively recently, meaning within the last few decades. On the other hand, you almost never hear about this kind of thing happening to any of those old cathedrals or castles in Europe, or to mosques, temples or palaces in other parts of the world.

There are buildings that have stood for over a thousand years which are still being used to this day, while I have a hard time imagining that any building built after 1950 will still stand a thousand years from now.

No, because most have a 70-100 year lifespan before demo and new construction.

Vancouver is well known to have a number of poorly built residential buildings downtown. So many shady construction companies that cut corners. Some of the floors are warped so bad you can watch things roll to the ends of the room. One in particular I'm thinking of was built in the late 1990s.

 

[MastaKiiLA]

Construction seems to be one of those areas where modern technology appears to be inferior to older building methods, at least as far as longevity is concerned. When you hear about a collapsed building these days, it‘s usually something that was build relatively recently, meaning within the last few decades. On the other hand, you almost never hear about this kind of thing happening to any of those old cathedrals or castles in Europe, or to mosques, temples or palaces in other parts of the world.

There are buildings that have stood for over a thousand years which are still being used to this day, while I have a hard time imagining that any building built after 1950 will still stand a thousand years from now.

This. I visited temples in Cambodia that were built not long after the calendars flipped from BC to AD, and they've seen millenia of monsoons and typhoons. Meanwhile, something built in the year 2000 might be lucky to make it to 2100, before needing a major renovation or rebuild. In Miami, the strongest homes are usually those built like 100 years ago, when everything was literally brick and mortar. Standards have really dropped over time.

 

[kuncol02]

There are buildings that have stood for over a thousand years which are still being used to this day

And there is many times more buildings which failed and killed people. Buildings rarely fail because of bad construction or design. It almost always is because negligence of administrators.

 

[MastaKiiLA]

Initial suggestions say the failure happened at or near the base of the building:

https://archive.ph/2021.06.28-005545/https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/27/us/miami-building-investigation-clues.html

A woman who was on the balcony talking to her husband on the phone said that "the pool is caving in" seconds before the line went dead:

A woman standing on her balcony was on the phone to her husband as the Miami condo began to collapse and described the unfolding disaster before the line went dead

The husband of Cassie Stratton heard a "blood-curdling scream" on the other end of the phone as his wife was engulfed in the Miami condo collapse.

news.yahoo.com

The NYT article shows that the pool is above the parking garage, where some suspect the failure might have originated.

 

[jason10mm]

Construction seems to be one of those areas where modern technology appears to be inferior to older building methods, at least as far as longevity is concerned. When you hear about a collapsed building these days, it‘s usually something that was build relatively recently, meaning within the last few decades. On the other hand, you almost never hear about this kind of thing happening to any of those old cathedrals or castles in Europe, or to mosques, temples or palaces in other parts of the world.

There are buildings that have stood for over a thousand years which are still being used to this day, while I have a hard time imagining that any building built after 1950 will still stand a thousand years from now.

This is survivor bias. Only the best ancient structures survive, not all of them. And many have been alternating between dilapidated and renovated.

Kinda like the bomber damage report from WW2. You reinforce the areas returning bombers DIDN'T show damage, not the parts shot to hell. Because bombers shot elsewhere crashed.

 

[HoodWinked]

Hmm weird that she said the pool is caving in cause the pool is kind of the only part that didn't.

But also the 2018 inspection seemed like it was mostly focused around the area around the pool, (note how far the pool is from the center part of the building that collapsed).

My guess, considering the area that crumbled first was towards the middle maybe it was some kind of structural flaw where the void to the underground garage ramp made it carry too much load combined with crumbling damaging underlying support.

Garage entrance https://goo.gl/maps/WdJTfjoGAuHtUNBG6

 

[MastaKiiLA]

Hmm weird that she said the pool is caving in cause the pool is kind of the only part that didn't.

But also the 2018 inspection seemed like it was mostly focused around the area around the pool, (note how far the pool is from the center part of the building that collapsed).

My guess, considering the area that crumbled first was towards the middle maybe it was some kind of structural flaw where the void to the underground garage ramp made it carry too much load combined with crumbling damaging underlying support.

Garage entrance https://goo.gl/maps/WdJTfjoGAuHtUNBG6

I assume water sloshing in the pool was the first visual indicator of imminent collapse. She didn't get much of a chance to elaborate.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Well the ground collapsed a few feet from the actual pool; she probably just meant that.. "the pool" being short for just.. the pool area of the complex.

 

[CloudNull]

 

[nush]

Well the ground collapsed a few feet from the actual pool; she probably just meant that.. "the pool" being short for just.. the pool area of the complex.

yes, it means pool deck.

 

[nush]

I'd still imagine building of a similar age and construction method in the area are going to be looked at very closely after this.

 

[Pol Pot]

It may have been them instead.
You're killing it, humanity. Crackerjack fucking job.

 

[Kev Kev]

they brought down the rest of the building



obviously the loss of life is the biggest tragedy here. but i still feel bad for the rest of the people who had to leave everything behind in their condos. family photos, important documents, hard drives full of god knows how much important stuff, pets (i hope they got them out but i imagine a few cats, birds or fish didnt make it out), art work, and god knows what else. this whole story is so fucking sad and awful. its all but certain now that everyone who is still missing will not be found, and the death toll will be somewhere around 145. smh.

 

[nush]

pets (i hope they got them out but i imagine a few cats, birds or fish didnt make it out)

They would have done a search of the remaining structure before demolition. Just to be sure there were no people inside before they blew it up. They would have saved the pets for sure, the rest of your stuff? Not likely, hope you have insurance.

 

[MastaKiiLA]

Pretty good amateur analysis of the failure, that ends up aggregating most of what we already know.


I also saw another video that suggests the pool deck collapsing caused the building supports to break due to twisting force from all the material tugging outward at the base of those supports. It is indeed strange seeing support pillars punched through the surface they were supposed to support. Like any crossbeams were just sheered clean off the supports. I'm pretty sure that's not how it's supposed to work. And such catastrophic failure at all the support pillars? A few maybe, but all of them failed in that way? Strange.

 

[nush]

Pretty good amateur analysis of the failure, that ends up aggregating most of what we already know.


I also saw another video that suggests the pool deck collapsing caused the building supports to break due to twisting force from all the material tugging outward at the base of those supports. It is indeed strange seeing support pillars punched through the surface they were supposed to support. Like any crossbeams were just sheered clean off the supports. I'm pretty sure that's not how it's supposed to work. And such catastrophic failure at all the support pillars? A few maybe, but all of them failed in that way? Strange.

water and salt water got into the crossbeams causing corrosion of the rebar. They were already weak from years of untreated corrosion.

 

[CloudNull]

Great information.
- Over 200 buildings that fit into specific criteria that could potentially have similar issues.... needs more investigating
- People think that photos show pillars with less rebar in pillars than the design called for..... needs more investigating

 

[ResilientBanana]

Yeah I bet some one goes to jail.

Engineer found major structural damage to Florida condo tower nearly three years before collapse

"Failure to replace the waterproofing in the near future will cause the extent of the concrete deterioration to expand exponentially," the report said.

www.cnbc.com

Doesn't sound like an issue of poor architectural work, just major neglect. These might be Condo's but there has to be someone maintaining the building.

Construction seems to be one of those areas where modern technology appears to be inferior to older building methods, at least as far as longevity is concerned. When you hear about a collapsed building these days, it‘s usually something that was build relatively recently, meaning within the last few decades. On the other hand, you almost never hear about this kind of thing happening to any of those old cathedrals or castles in Europe, or to mosques, temples or palaces in other parts of the world.

There are buildings that have stood for over a thousand years which are still being used to this day, while I have a hard time imagining that any building built after 1950 will still stand a thousand years from now.

Well yeah, you can spare no expense when you have slaves and/or serf's at your disposal. It's never really the materials that are the most expensive part of building something. It's the labor.

 

[Taxexemption]

Don't condos usually have a condo association that you pay dues to, some of which are supposed to be saved for major repairs and replacements? I'd be really curious as to what kind of fees they were paying, and where that money went. If they don't have a condo association, then I'm not sure how these things would have worked.

Edit: NPR article confirms there is a condo association and they are being sued.

Surfside, Fla., Condo Owners Are Suing The Collapsed Building's Association

As of Friday morning, 159 people remain unaccounted for as rescue crews work at the scene. The suit says the condo association failed to "secure and safeguard" the owners' lives and property.

www.npr.org

Generally, for accounting reasons in order to account for any major repairs or replacements condo associations are supposed to get a study done by a professional to identify major repairs and replacements, and their financials are supposed to show the amount of that obligation, and how much they have saved up for it. These studies are supposed to be updated every so often. I don't know about any specific rules for Florida but I doubt whatever they do there is drastically different.

It's a pretty big deal for something like this to happen as there are numerous people that should have known this could have happened and who collected money from the condo owners specifically to make sure they were in acceptable condition. There are a lot of people that had a hand in this, and the lawsuits will be interesting.


You can't just willy nilly open up even a small condo, there are a lot of rules that in theory should prevent stuff like this, and the fact that they didn't makes me think a lot of people are going to be in legal trouble.

 

[CrankyJay™]

Great information.
- Over 200 buildings that fit into specific criteria that could potentially have similar issues.... needs more investigating
- People think that photos show pillars with less rebar in pillars than the design called for..... needs more investigating

Seriously a dumb question, but could you basically X-Ray (or something similar) on existing pillars to check for enough rebar?

 

[CloudNull]

Seriously a dumb question, but could you basically X-Ray (or something similar) on existing pillars to check for enough rebar?

This seems plausible on standing buildings but not sure how they could prove it on a building that has fully collapsed. Maybe the rubble will still have parts of the pillars intact.

 

[CrankyJay™]

This seems plausible on standing buildings but not sure how they could prove it on a building that has fully collapsed. Maybe the rubble will still have parts of the pillars intact.

Eh I'm just trying to think of ways to identify standing buildings that might have a similar issue in Miami/elsewhere.

 

[The Pleasure]

Well, they only really have two criteria - build something which ticks all required regulations, and build it for as cheaply as possible so they can sell it on for the highest margins. You've got CAD tools now which will let you know if you can get away with using one less RSJ, or weaker concrete etc. Historically before we had all these other tools and materials you had to either build it properly or not build it at all.

I can testify to this. My aunts mcmansion is falling apart. It's 20 years old. The house I'm in is still standing and it's 100+ years old.