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[ChunderMan]

They should just throw this scumbag in a cage with some hungry hyenas, and film the feast for Pay Per View.

 

[krypt0nian]

I don't think it has anything to do with animal rights. I think anyone with that propensity for cruelty against another living thing should be locked away for a long fucking time.

This should be obvious to everyone that reads this statement. Hiding behind the law excused slavery and the like in the past. If Jay cannot see this, he's not really worth addressing.

 

[Big-E]

I don't think it has anything to do with animal rights. I think anyone with that propensity for cruelty against another living thing should be locked away for a long fucking time.

This is what I believe as well.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

Actually I love animals and I'm great with them. Doesn't mean they have rights.

I won't argue whether animals have rights or not (which is not to say that I agree with you that they don't,) but the idea that because they don't have rights, their owners have the right to abuse them is pretty disturbing. Animals are not inanimate objects, regardless of their rights, society has made a defensible decision to prosecute their abuse.

 

[Archaix]

I dunno, I'd think that's a long sentence for tax evasion on gambling profits.

Actually he didn't admit to sharing in any of the profits. He insisted throughout that he funded the operation but never received any money from the fights. He funded the operation and gave his friends money for bets, but never actually took any of the gambling winnings.


Can't we throw him in jail for actually thinking anybody would believe that bullshit?

 

[CharlieDigital]

Same principle as flag burning. Is it YOUR flag?

Does this apply to children and wives, too?

She's MY wife, I can beat her and murder her if I want to.

She's MY daughter, I can abuse her and molest her if I want to.

 

[Raistlin]

Can he get released in less time? Like 11.5 for good behavior? 23 months is a pretty long term if served in full. I hope he brought some good books.

I was under the impression that the terms of his plea prevent early release ... but I may be wrong?

 

[maynerd]

Does this apply to children and wives, too?

She's MY wife, I can beat her and murder her if I want to.

She's MY daughter, I can abuse her and molest her if I want to.

Humans have rights and are not property. He believes dogs like flags are property and have no rights so you can torture, burn, maim, and kill your dog and it's no big deal. Not defending Jaydub but your argument is off.

 

[Big-E]

The reason he is getting a longer period is also because he pissed the judge off. Judge gave him a set on conditions for the trial and Vick broke a number of them. Not the way to start off when the judge who is deciding your fate also likes dogs.

 

[kruskev]

Vick should star in a nationally televised game of football with him leading a group of dangerous inmates against corrupt guards to win back the heart of America.

 

[JayDubya]

Sure there is a practical, logical difference, especially if you look at it from the perspective that our rights are inherent in our status as living beings. Every living being has a basic right to existence (so long as that existence isn't threatening another being and of course with the usual disclaimers about hunting for survival or population control). Dogs, being living beings certainly have fewer rights than US citizens in our society but Vick cannot unilaterally decide that the dogs deserve to die for no other reason than that they're not as good at fighting. The principle that the dogs deserve an assumption of life trumps the claim that the dogs were Vick and his associates property.

Have to disagree with you, ol' chum. I don't really buy into a "basic right" construct for simply being alive. Kind of hard to justify my cheeseburger consumption.

Member of a species that is sentient (sapient) = right to life, right to liberty, right to property / pursuit of self interest. We're not likely to meet another species that warrants rights in our lifetime or our childrens' childrens' lifetimes. Maybe on another planet.

This should be obvious to everyone that reads this statement. Hiding behind the law excused slavery and the like in the past. If Jay cannot see this, he's not really worth addressing.

You're equating rational but enslaved Homo sapiens from a population that adapted to a high UV radiation environment with dogs, and you think it says something bad about me.

Does this apply to children and wives, too?

She's MY wife, I can beat her and murder her if I want to.

She's MY daughter, I can abuse her and molest her if I want to.

Can't own people. You have a fairly archaic view of marriage and parenthood.

 

[harSon]

Should the US go around and liberate the majority of the world of their barbaric ways then?

 

[TONX]

Have to disagree with you, ol' chum. I don't really buy into a "basic right" construct for simply being alive. Kind of hard to justify my cheeseburger consumption.

Member of a species that is sentient (sapient) = right to life, right to liberty, right to property / pursuit of self interest. We're not likely to meet another species that warrants rights in our lifetime or our childrens' childrens' lifetimes. Maybe on another planet.

So you're saying just because they don't understand the concept of rights, they aren't entitled to them?

 

[thesoapster]

Well that tends to be one argument, that people willing to do that to a dog are sociopaths and would inevitably do that to other people.

Yeah, the only problem is that you cannot make a general assumption like that. People obviously cannot considered legal property anymore. There's a huge difference between causing harm to a dog versus a human. Plus there's the cultural perspective that must be taken into account.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Should the US go around and liberate the majority of the world of their barbaric ways then?

Vick was a US citizen and on US soil when he pulled this shit. Let's just start there.

 

[Big-E]

So you're saying just because they don't understand the concept of rights, they aren't entitled to them?

Im sure a baby doesn't understand the concept of rights either.

 

[mckmas8808]

Fuck this.

I believe in animal rights and I believe in harsh sentences for those acting against those that cannot protect themselves but I'm disturbed at how people who molest children get off with lighter sentences.

That is distrubing.

 

[mckmas8808]

This is what I believe as well.

But you should get more time for killing a human right?

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

That is distrubing.

It doesn't mean the ridiculously inadequate sentence of one person of grotesque morality should get less of a sentence just to match up the ridiculously inadequate sentence of another person of even more grotesque morality.

 

[krypt0nian]

You're equating rational but enslaved Homo sapiens from a population that adapted to a high UV radiation environment with dogs, and you think it says something bad about me.

I'm equating hiding behind moral bankrupt laws as they are the same. Trying to bring in race issues here is beneath all of us.

 

[WrathOfOtaibah]

It doesn't mean the ridiculously inadequate sentence of one person of grotesque morality should get less of a sentence just to match up the ridiculously inadequate sentence of another person of even more grotesque morality.

I don't think Vick should have received a lighter sentence but it is just irritating how fucked up the US Justice system is.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

But you should get more time for killing a human right?

Well, technically it should be less, as they'd be in the ground way before an 85 year old Vick carved
"Vick Was Here" on the roof of the flophouse he was staying in before his trip to Zihuataneo.

 

[DarthWaiter]

Why is it that any half-assed celebrity gets off so easy. It pisses me off.

 

[mckmas8808]

Why is it that any half-assed celebrity gets off so easy. It pisses me off.

He got 2 years and lost his NFL contract (10s of millions of dollars) and endorsements. And is banned from the league.

He got it really good.

 

[Big-E]

But you should get more time for killing a human right?

I don't think anyone is saying he should get the death penalty which he would be getting if this is was done against humans. Personally I believe he deserves a more stricter sentence and that the penalty for cruelty to animals should be a lot more severe. But what transcends this is what this event says about Michael Vick the person. If you can do what he did to dogs and be able to sleep at night and fully function then I don't see how he isn't capable of doing this to a human.

 

[JayDubya]

Should the US go around and liberate the majority of the world of their barbaric ways then?

Some people would argue that it's a moral imperative, actually. Neoconservatives, generally.

Me? Not so much. Just because you have rights doesn't mean other people have an obligation to fight for them for you. By not reorganizing into a society that protects your liberties or not taking part in some kind of resistance or revolt or attempt to leave, you're pretty much consenting to exist in your situation.

With regards to canines et. al., when Animal Farm comes to fruition, then we'll know something's up and we need to rethink things a bit.

 

[WrathOfOtaibah]

He got 2 years and lost his NFL contract (10s of millions of dollars) and endorsements. And is banned from the league.

He got it really good.

Agreed. Vick is finished.

 

[Big-E]

I don't think Vick should have received a lighter sentence but it is just irritating how fucked up the US Justice system is.

The Canadian one is even more fucked up. A serial killer here who picked up hookers and homeless off the street killed them and then fed them to the pigs only got charged with second degree murder.

 

[mckmas8808]

I don't think anyone is saying he should get the death penalty which he would be getting if this is was done against humans. Personally I believe he deserves a more stricter sentence and that the penalty for cruelty to animals should be a lot more severe. But what transcends this is what this event says about Michael Vick the person. If you can do what he did to dogs and be able to sleep at night and fully function then I don't see how he isn't capable of doing this to a human.

This is one of the more stupider things that I've read when people talk about this case. Cruelty to animals does not directly correlate to cruelty to humans.

 

[firex]

I'm glad to see Vick get hit this hard with a sentence, because for once a superstar athlete doesn't get off lightly when they're guilty of a crime. I don't really care what the crime is, he earned his punishment and hopefully now he has to deal with it.

 

[Gaborn]

He got 2 years and lost his NFL contract (10s of millions of dollars) and endorsements. And is banned from the league.

He got it really good.

The bolded part is incidental to his confession and his association with the crime or any other serious offense. I'm not sure that the sentence is particularly harsh or light, it was slightly above recommendation but that was probably due to testing positive for marijuana (which shouldn't be a crime, though it is, and even if I think it should be legal I don't have a huge problem with forbidding non-physician-authorized drug use as part of your parole before you're formally sentenced) which ticked off the judge. I think it was probably at the low end of what he COULD have gotten though.

 

[mashoutposse]

Isn't animal cruelty considered a "gateway crime?" I can somewhat understand the stiff penalties, but this ruling is a bit OD. Unlike 99.99% of felons, Vick is well known and has much to lose -- 23 months aren't necessary to teach him a lesson here; strikes me as total overkill.

 

[harSon]

This is one of the more stupider things that I've read when people talk about this case. Cruelty to animals does not directly correlate to cruelty to humans.

I concur.

 

[Big-E]

This is one of the more stupider things that I've read when people talk about this case. Cruelty to animals does not directly correlate to cruelty to humans.

If you can hang a dog, electrocute, beat and drown them and sit there with a straight face then you should be able to stomach the same things being done to a human.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

If you can hang a dog, electrocute, beat and drown them and sit there with a straight face then you should be able to stomach the same things being done to a human.

Even if they can't, even they draw a line beyond that, that is still cruelty on a horrific and quantifiably punishable scale. They shouldn't have to be "suspected of going further". That is disgraceful and punishable enough.

 

[WrathOfOtaibah]

Isn't animal cruelty considered a "gateway crime?" I can somewhat understand the stiff penalties, but this ruling is a bit OD. Unlike 99.99% of felons, Vick is well known and has much to lose -- 23 months aren't necessary to teach him a lesson here; strikes me as total overkill.

Only if you are younger.

I've actually attended dogfights before. Not by will but by force (I was 11). It was seriously one of the most disturbing things I've ever witnessed. Luckily, I only went twice.

 

[thesoapster]

If you can hang a dog, electrocute, beat and drown them and sit there with a straight face then you should be able to stomach the same things being done to a human.

How can you possibly make that call?

 

[maynerd]

This is one of the more stupider things that I've read when people talk about this case. Cruelty to animals does not directly correlate to cruelty to humans.

Actually many serial killers that have been caught were found to be cruel to animals earlier in their life before moving onto 'bigger' things.

Not to say that one leads to the other but there have been many cases that this occured.

 

[WickedAngel]

Would I think they were an asshole? Sure. Same way I'd think someone was an asshole for disrespecting the flag by setting it on fire.

A domestic animal is property in every legal sense.

We've already heard your ignorant, one-dimensional views on the subject several times before. We have laws regarding how property can or can't be used and Michael Vick and his group clearly violated a significant amount of them.

I came in here to pre-emp your inevitable fallback upon "lolz, hamburgers" due to the fact that that ridiculous argument has been slapped down (Time, time, and time again) but I see you've already clamped onto it yet again.

 

[thetrin]

This is one of the more stupider things that I've read when people talk about this case. Cruelty to animals does not directly correlate to cruelty to humans.

Not in every single situation, no. But, studies HAVE shown a correlation between cruelty to animals and psycho/sociopathy. Kind of a non-point, but the fact of the matter is, to torture animals is pretty fucked up in the head. Anyone who enjoys that is probably not far from doing something truly terrible to people as well.

 

[bluemax]

My reply from the NFL thread:



I'd just like to add that I am perfectly fine with the sentencing, the barbaric act deserved strict punishment. I just hate the fact that a person who commits manslaughter, rape, etc can potentially be given a lighter sentence to someone who killed animals. The court system needs a serious overhaul.

You're a sick fuck you know that.

I would never dress a dog and I don't know if I'd equate killing animals to people, but your disdain for those of us who mourn the loss of an animal sickens me.

I'm man enough to admit I cried when my dog died earlier this year. Yes he wasn't a person, but he was a friend and had been a part of my family. Thankfully he got to live a long and happy dog life, but if he'd died some other horrible way it would've been much worse.

 

[thesoapster]

Not in every single situation, no. But, studies HAVE shown a correlation between cruelty to animals and psycho/sociopathy. Kind of a non-point, but the fact of the matter is, to torture animals is pretty fucked up in the head. Anyone who enjoys that is probably not far from doing something truly terrible to people as well.

I'd still say it's hard to make a call like that. Would you say Mexicans who have cock fights (actual chickens I mean) and do all sorts of nasty things are "probably not far from doing something truly terrible to people as well"?

I still maintain culture plays a HUGE role here.

 

[Cauliflower of Love]

I wish people would put this much attention and protest to people getting less time for murders and rapes of human beings.

 

[thesoapster]

I wish people would put this much attention and protest to people getting less time for murders and rapes of human beings.

Some people are, but they are being treated as not caring for animals even if they may. I love animals.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Some people are, but they are being treated as not caring for animals even if they may. I love animals.

I think it's quite possible to have, say, the position I have in this thread and be even more outraged about those who commit similar or worse acts cruelty against humans.

 

[thetrin]

I'd still say it's hard to make a call like that. Would you say Mexicans who have cock fights (actual chickens I mean) and do all sorts of nasty things are "probably not far from doing something truly terrible to people as well"?

I still maintain culture plays a HUGE role here.

Perhaps not, but I'm still against cock fights. I think that kind of thing is sick. Watching the demise of an animal for pleasure and cash is fucking disturbing, no matter the animal.

I think it's quite possible to have, say, the position I have in this thread and be even more outraged about those who commit similar or worse acts cruelty against humans.

nod. I am of the same opinion.

 

[mckmas8808]

If you can hang a dog, electrocute, beat and drown them and sit there with a straight face then you should be able to stomach the same things being done to a human.

Maybe, maybe not. Who really knows?

 

[thesoapster]

I think it's quite possible to have, say, the position I have in this thread and be even more outraged about those who commit similar or worse acts cruelty against humans.

Well I'm not really pointing fingers here...I'm not going to read the whole thread over again. I just see some people looking like they are taking what others say out of context. Some people feel really strongly about this issue and protecting animals' rights (even as property). I don't know. Most people here agree that if we punish crimes in the way that we do we should alter our punishment system.

 

[mckmas8808]

Actually many serial killers that have been caught were found to be cruel to animals earlier in their life before moving onto 'bigger' things.

Not to say that one leads to the other but there have been many cases that this occured.

Did those same serial killers play any video game in their life? If so video games lends to being a serial killer.

 

[Escape Goat]

Did those same serial killers play any video game in their life? If so video games lends to being a serial killer.

what about before video games were invented?