Michael Vick hit with 23 month prison sentence

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Propagandhim said:
There's definitely nothing outlandish about someone who doesn't give any iota of sympathy for a dead animal. Looking at the context of your life, it's understandable. My father is much the same, and couldn't care less about any pet animal if he tried. That doesn't necessarily mean he's a jerk or emotionally bereft, he just has a different idea of what should be mourned. Torturing them on the other hand, is completely and ubiquitously fucked. So, I understand where you're coming from.

I definitely don't hate animals nor do I condone unneeded violence towards them. I actually had a dog for quite some time, but so many fucked up things occurred during that period of ownership that I never did develop a strong bond. People seem to mistake my love for human life as disdain towards animals, that is simply false. I just have a rather strong love for human life and will do anything to protect it.

I personally think that Vick's sentencing was fair, my problem is with punishments for crimes towards humans being remotely similar to those towards an animal.
 
harSon said:
I definitely don't hate animals nor do I condone unneeded violence towards them. I actually had a dog for quite some time, but so many fucked up things occurred during that period of ownership that I never did develop a strong bond. People seem to mistake my love for human life as disdain towards animals, that is simply false. I just have a rather strong love for human life and will do anything to protect it.

I personally think that Vick's sentencing was fair, my problem is with punishments for crimes towards humans being remotely similar to those towards an animal.

No argument here.
 
Vick noOOoOoOoOOo

Atlanta needs him, the judge must have been a carolina fan or somethin'.

We were hoping for a year. two sounds about right...but it's just enough that theres a strong possibility he won't play for anybody.
 
This is a needlessly complex issue that has always proven to be a headache to attempt honest discussion with people about.

Perspective and constancy are absolute imperatives when discussing anything that could be considered moral or emotional whilst still expect a progressive out come. Obviously this is so because these subjective emotional and moral feelings have a blanket affect on every one of us in literal, non subjective ways. That is to say, influence on our legal system.

For example it would not be productive to make, say, blinking your eye(s) illegal. Regardless of one's zeal on the issue the lone point of fact that the over whelming majority of us blink renders the idea impotent and useless. You would then incriminate all of us who blink, of course. Some don't blink however most do and almost if not every one of the people behind such a law do it as well. So naturally passing such a law would not be productive or beneficial in anyway. The only way a society could function in such a law is mass delusion that not only should blinking be illegal but that they themselves would never commit such a crime, even though they do. Which once again makes the law superfluous. This might seem completely mundane but the common sense behind this fact is every bit as fundamental to the issue of "animal cruelty".

We as a society are carnivorous. That is to say we by and large depend on meat to live. It's an integral part of our society's diet. Now, many people will and correctly so draw a distinction between that concept of need and want when it comes to the taking of an animal's life. Perhaps in another time and/or culture it would be productive to incorporate such values and practices into law as it would be an important part of said population's own constitution through action and tradition. We would then have the rational marriage between emotional/moral and legal standard. Making such laws productive by default because such practices are intuitive to their lifestyle.

As it happens to be we are not only a carnivorous society but we are also implicitly indulgent. As said about the anti-blinking movement, a society can only conduct itself under such moral and legal statutes if heavy doses of delusion are applied. For example; many hunters feel that it is moral for them to hunt and kill animals in the wild only if they eat the meat of the game they kill. However if society recognizes the distinction between want and need on the issue and uses that as the litmus test to discern moral and legal correctness then the hunter is just as guilty as Vick here is. He did not *need* the meat to survive. He did not *need* to go into the home of an animal and kill it for food. He *chose* only to do it for indulgence. Therefore he has to delude himself to appear and feel moral. Vick killed animals for enjoyment. A hunter in modern society kills animals for enjoyment. Obviously some hermit living and operating outside of the comforts of modern society would be exempt from such guilt because of the of the necessity of the hunt to survive.

------Life------
need =\= want
moral =\= immoral
legal =\= illegal

We see, several times every day advertisements for fast food. It's completely normal and taken for granted. There are posts here whenever a new sandwich pops up on the menu of McDonalds or Burger King where people go in a drool over and such. I would bet any sum of money that most or all of the people posting in such threads are cheering and lauding this sentence for Vick. This is a moral impasse. This is yet another example of society being forced to delude itself in order to function. Not a single person *needs* to go to McDonalds and shove a 1/4 chunk of beef down their throat to survive. That cow has every single one of the tenants people use when advocating animal's rights. The have a working nervous system. Can feel attachment and rejection. They feel pain and know fear. But yet millions upon millions of people see to it that they are killed for their own indulgence. They taste good, they are yummy. So people are fine with said cows being slaughtered by the millions if only to satisfy their own impulsive indulgence for ten or so minutes only to be digested then shit out and forgotten about. Mothers, fathers, all dying for nothing. That is just one example.

Modern hunters kills animal for enjoyment.

Your average American kills animals for enjoyment.

Mike Vick kills animals for enjoyment.

Justice is blind. Every single one of McDonald's 40 trillion served are guilty of the same crime. Taking the lives of animals for no reason other than selfish indulgence. But yet only Mike Vick is on trial here. How is that justice?

Animals are bought and sold like every other manner of property

You can have your pet put to sleep

You tell the animal what to do and punish it when it doesn't comply

You tear children from their mothers, break families/litters apart

You expect them to work without compensation

And none of that with the consent of the animal!

It's does not matter how nice you think your brand of humanity is to them, how much you claim to love them, how much you think they appreciate being pet and loved on. Maybe they don't want to be there, never did, don't like you but are afraid to do anything about it because of your power. It's the same concept of a mildly compassionate slave owner treating a black slave to an extra bowl of soup and a spot by the fire place during a cold winter night. That means that the owner cares about the feelings of the slave then right? He should be greatful? No. He is bought and sold. Animals are bought and sold and no one in their right mind would say "black people had rights before the civil war". So how in the green HELL can people claim animals have rights? That's right, delusion. They where/are not different.

People try to take their own admiration for their favorite pet and us it in an attempt to color over these facts. However I can do the same with my Wii. I LOVE it. I think it's awesome and would NEVER want to hurt it. I don't want to throw it, break it and catch it on fire. But that does not give me the right to tell you how to treat yours. It's yours, you bought it, you dictate what goes on with it - you do what you want with your own property. So until the nation wide delusion that we are a country that gives a flying shit about animals in practice fades way and we as a society stop wasting food and getting fucking obese off the remains of live, breathing animals for mere enjoyment; having such laws that dictate the contrary are impotent and superfluous as are the ideals behind them.

Now if some one was to bring about a movement to stop the buying and selling of pets and casual consumption of meat and so forth that could possibly have merit and would stand the test of legislation. But until that law passes, it is not ME saying animals have no rights; it's the practices of nearly every single citizen that say it. With their actions. Words mean nothing, death still happens.
 
BenjaminBirdie said:
ElcorRox.jpg

I only just noticed. Is the typo in your avatar deliberate? "Entusiasm"?
 
JayDubya said:
There is no practical, logical difference. Just emotional rhetoric.
What about humans? What is the "practical logical difference" from enslaving and beating a human? What exactly is the difference besides emotional rhetoric?

Some of your stuff I agree with, but this is pretty dumb.
 
Valcrist said:
too bad vick wasn't a wrestler huh?
wheres the people to defend his work ethic and all the good things that he did.

lol cooooold blooded

I hate to admit it as a ATLboi, but meeeeeh I dunno about that work ethic and great things on the field part. Damn entertaining dude tho and the whole city misses him.
 
The Grand Lucifarius said:
This is a needlessly complex issue that has always proven to be a headache to attempt honest discussion with people about.

Perspective and constancy are absolute imperatives when discussing anything that could be considered moral or emotional whilst still expect a progressive out come. Obviously this is so because these subjective emotional and moral feelings have a blanket affect on every one of us in literal, non subjective ways. That is to say, influence on our legal system.

For example it would not be productive to make, say, blinking your eye(s) illegal. Regardless of one's zeal on the issue the lone point of fact that the over whelming majority of us blink renders the idea impotent and useless. You would then incriminate all of us who blink, of course. Some don't blink however most do and almost if not every one of the people behind such a law do it as well. So naturally passing such a law would not be productive or beneficial in anyway. The only way a society could function in such a law is mass delusion that not only should blinking be illegal but that they themselves would never commit such a crime, even though they do. Which once again makes the law superfluous. This might seem completely mundane but the common sense behind this fact is every bit as fundamental to the issue of "animal cruelty".

We as a society are carnivorous. That is to say we by and large depend on meat to live. It's an integral part of our society's diet. Now, many people will and correctly so draw a distinction between that concept of need and want when it comes to the taking of an animal's life. Perhaps in another time and/or culture it would be productive to incorporate such values and practices into law as it would be an important part of said population's own constitution through action and tradition. We would then have the rational marriage between emotional/moral and legal standard. Making such laws productive by default because such practices are intuitive to their lifestyle.

As it happens to be we are not only a carnivorous society but we are also implicitly indulgent. As said about the anti-blinking movement, a society can only conduct itself under such moral and legal statutes if heavy doses of delusion are applied. For example; many hunters feel that it is moral for them to hunt and kill animals in the wild only if they eat the meat of the game they kill. However if society recognizes the distinction between want and need on the issue and uses that as the litmus test to discern moral and legal correctness then the hunter is just as guilty as Vick here is. He did not *need* the meat to survive. He did not *need* to go into the home of an animal and kill it for food. He *chose* only to do it for indulgence. Therefore he has to delude himself to appear and feel moral. Vick killed animals for enjoyment. A hunter in modern society kills animals for enjoyment. Obviously some hermit living and operating outside of the comforts of modern society would be exempt from such guilt because of the of the necessity of the hunt to survive.

------Life------
need =\= want
moral =\= immoral
legal =\= illegal

We see, several times every day advertisements for fast food. It's completely normal and taken for granted. There are posts here whenever a new sandwich pops up on the menu of McDonalds or Burger King where people go in a drool over and such. I would bet any sum of money that most or all of the people posting in such threads are cheering and lauding this sentence for Vick. This is a moral impasse. This is yet another example of society being forced to delude itself in order to function. Not a single person *needs* to go to McDonalds and shove a 1/4 chunk of beef down their throat to survive. That cow has every single one of the tenants people use when advocating animal's rights. The have a working nervous system. Can feel attachment and rejection. They feel pain and know fear. But yet millions upon millions of people see to it that they are killed for their own indulgence. They taste good, they are yummy. So people are fine with said cows being slaughtered by the millions if only to satisfy their own impulsive indulgence for ten or so minutes only to be digested then shit out and forgotten about. Mothers, fathers, all dying for nothing. That is just one example.

Modern hunters kills animal for enjoyment.

Your average American kills animals for enjoyment.

Mike Vick kills animals for enjoyment.

Justice is blind. Every single one of McDonald's 40 trillion served are guilty of the same crime. Taking the lives of animals for no reason other than selfish indulgence. But yet only Mike Vick is on trial here. How is that justice?

Animals are bought and sold like every other manner of property

You can have your pet put to sleep

You tell the animal what to do and punish it when it doesn't comply

You tear children from their mothers, break families/litters apart

You expect them to work without compensation

And none of that with the consent of the animal!

It's does not matter how nice you think your brand of humanity is to them, how much you claim to love them, how much you think they appreciate being pet and loved on. Maybe they don't want to be there, never did, don't like you but are afraid to do anything about it because of your power. It's the same concept of a mildly compassionate slave owner treating a black slave to an extra bowl of soup and a spot by the fire place during a cold winter night. That means that the owner cares about the feelings of the slave then right? He should be greatful? No. He is bought and sold. Animals are bought and sold and no one in their right mind would say "black people had rights before the civil war". So how in the green HELL can people claim animals have rights? That's right, delusion. They where/are not different.

People try to take their own admiration for their favorite pet and us it in an attempt to color over these facts. However I can do the same with my Wii. I LOVE it. I think it's awesome and would NEVER want to hurt it. I don't want to throw it, break it and catch it on fire. But that does not give me the right to tell you how to treat yours. It's yours, you bought it, you dictate what goes on with it - you do what you want with your own property. So until the nation wide delusion that we are a country that gives a flying shit about animals in practice fades way and we as a society stop wasting food and getting fucking obese off the remains of live, breathing animals for mere enjoyment; having such laws that dictate the contrary are impotent and superfluous as are the ideals behind them.

Now if some one was to bring about a movement to stop the buying and selling of pets and casual consumption of meat and so forth that could possibly have merit and would stand the test of legislation. But until that law passes, it is not ME saying animals have no rights; it's the practices of nearly every single citizen that say it. With their actions. Words mean nothing, death still happens.

Exactly.

I said something similar (and a hell of a lot shorter) in the NFL thread I believe. People only care when it is convenient to do so. That statement carries into many aspects of people's lives.
 
Timedog said:
What about humans? What is the "practical logical difference" from enslaving and beating a human? What exactly is the difference besides emotional rhetoric?

Some of your stuff I agree with, but this is pretty dumb.

Well, though I disagree with JayDub on this issue at least partially, the clear difference between humans and animals is that humans are sentient, we understand our world in a way animals do not. That's not to say animals are not intelligent, some are even "self aware" enough to pass the "mirror test" (most animals are not aware if they look in the mirror that they're viewing themselves, a few species, chimps, and I believe Elephants recently, have been shown to react to their "mirror image" differently enough that they identify the image as themselves). Yet even with that, they are not as self aware and capable of understanding the world in the way we do.

I think there are many ways to look at it (and I'm not a biologist so this is going to be a relatively unscientific example) but most humans have the capacity (if not always the inclination) to make long term plans, not just today or tomorrow or next weeks, but 1 year from now or 5 years from now. I know that some animals will store food for the winter, but how many are able to plan for 5 years? or 10? how many have long term goals? How many really, truly, grasp the passage of time beyond light and dark, night and day?

animals can be very intelligent, they might even have a level of self awareness (the mirror test, one reason I'd diagree with JayDub and suggest that in a very limited sense animals should have basic considerations as to treatment) but they are NOT considered sentient as humans are.
 
The Grand Lucifarius said:
******Epic Post*******

Word,

Although i'm not to keen on the connection between pets and objects of entertainment. But, unfortunately thats what pets are. Ugh, i don't even want to get into this topic lol. Because everytime i think about it I get a little heated. Because at the end of the day everybody is bottling up pets for a slow and painful death.
 
Sol.. said:
Word,

Although i'm not to keen on the connection between pets and objects of entertainment. But, unfortunately thats what pets are. Ugh, i don't even want to get into this topic lol. Because everytime i think about it I get a little heated. Because at the end of the day everybody is bottling up pets for a slow and painful death.

I myself have 12 cats (yes 12, they were all strays) and care for them a great deal so yeah I agree that the idea that they are property is a bit disheartening at first but really though not all property is treated the same. But that is still the reality as it happens.
 
The Grand Lucifarius said:
I myself have 12 cats (yes 12, they were all strays) and care for them a great deal so yeah I agree that the idea that they are property is a bit disheartening at first but really though not all property is treated the same. But that is still the reality as it happens.

lol my neighboor has a cat. I like how they work with their cat. They just let it live out in the woods. When it's hungry or thirsty it cames back home (or to our house and we occationally feed it) . When it rains it likes to rest on our door step, under our (or the neighboor's) car, and sometimes ontop of the car if it gets cold lol.

It doesn't like me tho, one morning I stepped on it. It was kinda funny. I stepped on all belly (but no ribs) and it walked around the yard for 5 minutes all dizzy and making funny noises then it passed out. she got over it though after her little drama cat phase. Although, she's extra attentive when she catches my scent.
 
Sol.. said:
lol my neighboor has a cat. I like how they work with their cat. They just let it live out in the woods. When it's hungry or thirsty it cames back home (or to our house and we occationally feed it) . When it rains it likes to rest on our door step, under our (or the neighboor's) car, and sometimes ontop of the car if it gets cold lol.

It doesn't like me tho, one morning I stepped on it. It was kinda funny. I stepped on all belly (but no ribs) and it walked around the yard for 5 minutes all dizzy and making funny noises then it passed out. she got over it though after her little drama cat phase. Although, she's extra attentive when she catches my scent.

I've got 2 males that do not ever like being in the house. We are good friends with our neighbors and when they go out, the end up meowing at her door and she lets him in. Some days I'll ask one of my daughters, "Where's Tig and Gimper?" and she'll casually say "They are at Sharol's" like they are kids spending the night somewhere or something. lol

Sluts.
 
Even with good behavior, Vick will have to serve 19 months, since these are Federal charges.

Not to mention, he won't be allowed to own a firearm or vote, and since he'll be on probation for 3 years after he is released, he'll be royally fucked if he gets arrested for anything.
 
Gaborn said:
Well, though I disagree with JayDub on this issue at least partially, the clear difference between humans and animals is that humans are sentient, we understand our world in a way animals do not. That's not to say animals are not intelligent, some are even "self aware" enough to pass the "mirror test" (most animals are not aware if they look in the mirror that they're viewing themselves, a few species, chimps, and I believe Elephants recently, have been shown to react to their "mirror image" differently enough that they identify the image as themselves). Yet even with that, they are not as self aware and capable of understanding the world in the way we do.

I think there are many ways to look at it (and I'm not a biologist so this is going to be a relatively unscientific example) but most humans have the capacity (if not always the inclination) to make long term plans, not just today or tomorrow or next weeks, but 1 year from now or 5 years from now. I know that some animals will store food for the winter, but how many are able to plan for 5 years? or 10? how many have long term goals? How many really, truly, grasp the passage of time beyond light and dark, night and day?

animals can be very intelligent, they might even have a level of self awareness (the mirror test, one reason I'd diagree with JayDub and suggest that in a very limited sense animals should have basic considerations as to treatment) but they are NOT considered sentient as humans are.

So it would be okay to kill or harm a severely mentally retarded human?
 
Timedog said:
So it would be okay to kill or harm a severely mentally retarded human?

Way to spot the technicality, theres an exception to nearly every train of thought. To point out small minute details that are insignificant to the larger picture is pretty useless.
 
The Experiment said:
Fuck this.

I believe in animal rights and I believe in harsh sentences for those acting against those that cannot protect themselves but I'm disturbed at how people who molest children get off with lighter sentences.
So because other injustices occasionally happen might as well fuck them all up right? Nice logic.
 
Chichikov said:
Eating meat isn’t necessary.
Eating mammals isn’t necessary.

What kind of fantasy world do you live in where meat products aren't necessary? Are you serious? Our country couldn't even come close to sustaining itself with agriculture alone.

Chichikov said:
The fact that Vick may or may not been entertained by the killing of those dogs is a minor point.
Sure, it reflects on his character.
But just as murder is wrong if done for money or for pleasure, why do you draw the line at the killing of animals by the motivation and method of the killer?

Because that is how the law works?

We have many, many different distinctions for human deaths as well. Murder/Manslaughter and the varying degrees of each, for instance. Intent plays a large role in our legal system.
 
BenjaminBirdie said:
GAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!

I've had that for like a month o my god what the hell is wrong with me god damn it what the fuck SHIT.
I noticed it a long time ago...thought you were trying to save space. :lol
 
Timedog said:
So it would be okay to kill or harm a severely mentally retarded human?

Well that depends on the situation in part I think. You could in accurately describe Terri Schiavo as severely mentally retarded yet her situation was different than someone born with, say, Downs Syndrome or with other mental conditions. If someone was mentally competent and decided if they ever become permanently mentally incompetent to withhold food/treatment then I've got no problem with withholding medical treatment if they have a pre-existing request (or, in the case of Schiavo if and when the person responsible for her decision making decides what is closest to her wishes).

However, if a mother decides to carry someone to full term and deliver them, no, I don't think they should be unilaterally killed if they're severely mentally handicapped. A human being represents an extreme level of potential. Potential doesn't just mean intellect or problem solving or even self awareness. When I refer to potential I refer to the ability to impact lives and to have others lives impact you. I fear for a society that kills fully physically formed infants just because of a mental retardation when they would live with a reasonable level of care free from pain and were unlikely to suffer a painful death otherwise. I think that human life is a precious commodity, though I'm probably more agnostic on the question of abortion than JayDub (though I believe we both agree it should be left to the states).
 
The Grand Lucifarius said:
This is a needlessly complex issue that has always proven to be a headache to attempt honest discussion with people about.

Perspective and constancy are absolute imperatives when discussing anything that could be considered moral or emotional whilst still expect a progressive out come. Obviously this is so because these subjective emotional and moral feelings have a blanket affect on every one of us in literal, non subjective ways. That is to say, influence on our legal system.

For example it would not be productive to make, say, blinking your eye(s) illegal. Regardless of one's zeal on the issue the lone point of fact that the over whelming majority of us blink renders the idea impotent and useless. You would then incriminate all of us who blink, of course. Some don't blink however most do and almost if not every one of the people behind such a law do it as well. So naturally passing such a law would not be productive or beneficial in anyway. The only way a society could function in such a law is mass delusion that not only should blinking be illegal but that they themselves would never commit such a crime, even though they do. Which once again makes the law superfluous. This might seem completely mundane but the common sense behind this fact is every bit as fundamental to the issue of "animal cruelty".

We as a society are carnivorous. That is to say we by and large depend on meat to live. It's an integral part of our society's diet. Now, many people will and correctly so draw a distinction between that concept of need and want when it comes to the taking of an animal's life. Perhaps in another time and/or culture it would be productive to incorporate such values and practices into law as it would be an important part of said population's own constitution through action and tradition. We would then have the rational marriage between emotional/moral and legal standard. Making such laws productive by default because such practices are intuitive to their lifestyle.

As it happens to be we are not only a carnivorous society but we are also implicitly indulgent. As said about the anti-blinking movement, a society can only conduct itself under such moral and legal statutes if heavy doses of delusion are applied. For example; many hunters feel that it is moral for them to hunt and kill animals in the wild only if they eat the meat of the game they kill. However if society recognizes the distinction between want and need on the issue and uses that as the litmus test to discern moral and legal correctness then the hunter is just as guilty as Vick here is. He did not *need* the meat to survive. He did not *need* to go into the home of an animal and kill it for food. He *chose* only to do it for indulgence. Therefore he has to delude himself to appear and feel moral. Vick killed animals for enjoyment. A hunter in modern society kills animals for enjoyment. Obviously some hermit living and operating outside of the comforts of modern society would be exempt from such guilt because of the of the necessity of the hunt to survive.

------Life------
need =\= want
moral =\= immoral
legal =\= illegal

We see, several times every day advertisements for fast food. It's completely normal and taken for granted. There are posts here whenever a new sandwich pops up on the menu of McDonalds or Burger King where people go in a drool over and such. I would bet any sum of money that most or all of the people posting in such threads are cheering and lauding this sentence for Vick. This is a moral impasse. This is yet another example of society being forced to delude itself in order to function. Not a single person *needs* to go to McDonalds and shove a 1/4 chunk of beef down their throat to survive. That cow has every single one of the tenants people use when advocating animal's rights. The have a working nervous system. Can feel attachment and rejection. They feel pain and know fear. But yet millions upon millions of people see to it that they are killed for their own indulgence. They taste good, they are yummy. So people are fine with said cows being slaughtered by the millions if only to satisfy their own impulsive indulgence for ten or so minutes only to be digested then shit out and forgotten about. Mothers, fathers, all dying for nothing. That is just one example.

Modern hunters kills animal for enjoyment.

Your average American kills animals for enjoyment.

Mike Vick kills animals for enjoyment.

Justice is blind. Every single one of McDonald's 40 trillion served are guilty of the same crime. Taking the lives of animals for no reason other than selfish indulgence. But yet only Mike Vick is on trial here. How is that justice?

Animals are bought and sold like every other manner of property

You can have your pet put to sleep

You tell the animal what to do and punish it when it doesn't comply

You tear children from their mothers, break families/litters apart

You expect them to work without compensation

And none of that with the consent of the animal!

It's does not matter how nice you think your brand of humanity is to them, how much you claim to love them, how much you think they appreciate being pet and loved on. Maybe they don't want to be there, never did, don't like you but are afraid to do anything about it because of your power. It's the same concept of a mildly compassionate slave owner treating a black slave to an extra bowl of soup and a spot by the fire place during a cold winter night. That means that the owner cares about the feelings of the slave then right? He should be greatful? No. He is bought and sold. Animals are bought and sold and no one in their right mind would say "black people had rights before the civil war". So how in the green HELL can people claim animals have rights? That's right, delusion. They where/are not different.

People try to take their own admiration for their favorite pet and us it in an attempt to color over these facts. However I can do the same with my Wii. I LOVE it. I think it's awesome and would NEVER want to hurt it. I don't want to throw it, break it and catch it on fire. But that does not give me the right to tell you how to treat yours. It's yours, you bought it, you dictate what goes on with it - you do what you want with your own property. So until the nation wide delusion that we are a country that gives a flying shit about animals in practice fades way and we as a society stop wasting food and getting fucking obese off the remains of live, breathing animals for mere enjoyment; having such laws that dictate the contrary are impotent and superfluous as are the ideals behind them.

Now if some one was to bring about a movement to stop the buying and selling of pets and casual consumption of meat and so forth that could possibly have merit and would stand the test of legislation. But until that law passes, it is not ME saying animals have no rights; it's the practices of nearly every single citizen that say it. With their actions. Words mean nothing, death still happens.

So, since we are carnivores, we should be allowed to let animals suffer for no reason? Killing for meat is not the same as killing for sport, no matter how eloquently you try to describe it using any amount of words.

Almost nothing is a necessity. Saying that since something isn't a necessity, it, regardless of what it is, should be allowed to be destroyed is ludicrous, and counter to human development throughout history.
 
mckmas8808 said:
I disagree with this statement. The correct statement would be, "the black people that white america talks about and shows on TV view dogs as guard animals."

There's plenty of white people that fight dogs too, but the white media isn't going to say to much about that (except CNN of course).

And there's plenty of black people that view their dogs as true pets and not guard dogs.


Agreed. Racial differences are probably nil when you factor in socio economic status (SES).
 
GhettoGamer said:
Uhhmm Vick wasnt the one toturing the dogs FYI.

That may or may not be the case. Vick never confessed to it. All he confessed to is that he funded dogfighting, he chose which dogs were under performing and should die. And he watched them die. Prosecutors claim he killed dogs. Purnell Peace said he killed dogs. But you're right, never confessed to it. His claim is that he only watched them suffer.
 
Timedog said:
So, since we are carnivores, we should be allowed to let animals suffer for no reason? Killing for meat is not the same as killing for sport, no matter how eloquently you try to describe it using any amount of words.

Almost nothing is a necessity. Saying that since something isn't a necessity, it, regardless of what it is, should be allowed to be destroyed is ludicrous, and counter to human development throughout history.

No, hunting for meat is not needed. It's an excuse. Either way the deer, or fox, or bunny would have been alive and would have had if not already had a little critter family of his/her own had the hunter arbitrarily not decided that instead of eating a can of food or going to the super market decided that it would be more fun to stalk, kill and eat said animal.

What I am saying is that if people did concern themselves with the welfare of animals they would not trivialize them at every juncture. Be it individual liberties or the very right to live. If people really cared about animal rights we would not allow businesses to exploit the very lives of animals in such an irresponsible way and there would be a solid and strict ban on casual meat eating. But this society would never go through such pains to ensure the life of a being they know to be insignificant and therefore treat it accordingly. People will speak all sorts of moving and emotional rhetoric until you tell them to prove it by getting rid of McDonalds, Burger King, Taco Bell, Applebees, Hardies and so on. They WANT those things. If life was such a precious commodity et al it would be treated like a precious commodity and meat would not be taken for granted.

My point is society talks out of both sides of its mouth. Animals cannot be even in the same universe as humans whilst we knowingly, willingly and eagerly kill them, make them suffer for admittedly petty reasons. (IE "WOW I want a burger, lets go kill a cow so I can take a part of it body because it's just so yummy!)

Like I said, the bridge between morality and legality can only be made out of perspective and consistency. And so far society is completely and totally lacking in both and as such is completely unprepared to pass any kind of judgment on the issue. Having laws with ideals that are completely counter intuitive to it's citizens way of thinking and more importantly actions are worthless and implicate a great deal more people than those of Vick's ilk.

If society is ok with animals being treated like property = they should be fine with labeling them as property.

property = private ownership = can use however the owner sees fit. Again, no one can come to your home and tell you how to treat you Wii or Xbox. And likewise you cannot tell a cattle farmer to not put a rod through that cows head because it's mean. He owns it. But the whole consistency thing is completely drowned out with incessant political and ethical double speak.
 
Triumph said:
Why not? He plead last and his buddies got 18 and 21 months. 23 months is totally within reason since the people that cut the first deals get the lighter sentences.
See, this is such a bullshit system. I fucking hate the fact that you get penalized for exercising your consitutional right to a trial. I'd love to see the whole plea-bargaining system thrown out the window.
 
Green Shinobi said:
See, this is such a bullshit system. I fucking hate the fact that you get penalized for exercising your consitutional right to a trial. I'd love to see the whole plea-bargaining system thrown out the window.

He wasn't penalized for exercising his constitutional right to a trial; he was penalized for trying to take advantage of that constitutional right by lying and pleading not guilty to charges he was guilty for. Your constitutional right to a trial does not protect the act of lying in order to escape a conviction.
 
The Grand Lucifarius said:
No, hunting for meat is not needed. It's an excuse. Either way the deer, or fox, or bunny would have been alive and would have had if not already had a little critter family of his/her own had the hunter arbitrarily not decided that instead of eating a can of food or going to the super market decided that it would be more fun to stalk, kill and eat said animal.

To put it short, you need to do a little research into population control and why hunting is seasonal in most (If not all) areas of the country. Hunting is a necessary evil to protect crops; whether or not the meat is consumed (And it often is; it isn't uncommon to have animals like deer processed for consumption) isn't relevant.

You keep generalizing to get your point across and it really doesn't do much to help you. Everyone is aware that different animals receive different treatment. As has been said time and time again, certain animals must die in order for us to live. That does not make it right to torture an animal for amusement and it certainly doesn't justify the destruction of animals that have nothing to do with our survival in the first place.
 
WickedAngel said:
To put it short, you need to do a little research into population control and why hunting is seasonal in most (If not all) areas of the country. Hunting is a necessary evil to protect crops; whether or not the meat is consumed (And it often is; it isn't uncommon to have animals like deer processed for consumption) isn't relevant.

That obviously is not the hunting scenario I portrayed but you have failed to how what you said even reaffirms my point. The deaths of countless animals are still rationalized by the convenience of humans. They are trivial when compared to our modern travel systems and agriculture. So we weed them out with no concern with their welfare.

We don't live with them. We over power, enslave, eat and destroy the ones that do not assimilate unconditionally to man kinds desire. This is not a matter of opinion here.

If only that was understood and accepted. At best society has shown to only grasp one of those at a time. Depending on what day, where at and to whom they are in front of when you ask.
 
WickedAngel said:
You keep generalizing to get your point across and it really doesn't do much to help you. Everyone is aware that different animals receive different treatment. As has been said time and time again, certain animals must die in order for us to live. That does not make it right to torture an animal for amusement and it certainly doesn't justify the destruction of animals that have nothing to do with our survival in the first place.

You simply do not get it.

Supply me with sound, objective reasons as to why a cow has a less of a right to life than a kitty cats. Not your opinion, but facts. If you establish that animals have rights as a fact you then have to show why that applies only to the ones its easy for you apply that too and doesn't to the ones that's difficult.

And as for the second comment I bolded; It's already been said to death that we do not need a massive majority of the meat we consume to survive. Meat is an indulgence here in America, how can this even begin to be disputed within fast food USA?? Like I said in my original post the only person immune to this would be someone who literally lives off the land away from modern society. He hunts and kills to survive. We do not a majority of the time. We do not NEED double quarter pounders to survive.

We treat them as property.
 
krypt0nian said:
This should be obvious to everyone that reads this statement. Hiding behind the law excused slavery and the like in the past. If Jay cannot see this, he's not really worth addressing.
Are you fucking insane?

I don't which who to attack, JayDuby's strict reading of law or the retarded arguments against him, most have no basis in logic or law, but are completely dependent on emotion.
 
The Grand Lucifarius said:
That obviously is not the hunting scenario I portrayed but you have failed to how what you said even reaffirms my point. The deaths of countless animals are still rationalized by the convenience of humans. They are trivial when compared to our modern travel systems and agriculture. So we weed them out with no concern with their welfare.

You seem to be having some extreme difficulties with this so I'll explain it as simply as possible.

1. Going to get a can of food from the supermarket does not do anything to control the current population of animals in the wild.

2. If that population is not managed, it will grow too rapidly.

3. The population becomes an overpopulation.

4. The overpopulation destroys aggricultural assets.

It really isn't that hard of a concept to follow but I can see why you're lost, considering how you are going back and forth across thoughts in an attempt to make a point.

Animals that are legal to hunt are legal to hunt because they must be destroyed. Even then, there are rules and regulations regarding the treatment of those animals and I have a hard time believing that a game warden would allow you to rig your car battery to a felled deer and finish it off.

The Grand Lucifarius said:
We don't live with them. We over power, enslave, eat and destroy the ones that do not assimilate unconditionally to man kinds desire. This is not a matter of opinion here.

:lol

I'm not sure what is worse; the radical, sociopathic "lols, animals dunt need rites" zealots or the opposite end of the spectrum that can't seem to understand the need for certain animals to die in order for humanity to live. It's like talking to a brick wall.

*Edit*

Ugh, why do people continually fall back on the "lols, private property" argument anyways? Private property is not excluded from laws and it never has been. Ownership does not give you the right to do whatever you want with your property. Want to find out for yourself? Run outside and wave a gun around in your yard. Build a pipebomb from household materials and inform the police of what you've done. Walk around outside naked (On your own property). Use your computer/cellphone to plot against the government. You will get the reality from your misfounded opinions rapidly enough.
 
avatar299 said:
It's some fucking dogs.

WickedAngel, you're arguing in circles.

I'm arguing with scholastic invalids who can't seem to acknolwedge ground that has been covered hundreds of times. Fortunately, the forum provides me with an option to take care of that.
 
DarkAngelYuna said:
Which are probably better than you.
:lol :lol We'll I know who to support now. People's attitude towards Canines is amazingly stupid.

George W. Bush fucked up. We should have invaded Iraq to liberate dogs. He'll still have support today if that was the case.

I'm arguing with scholastic invalids who can't seem to acknolwedge ground that has been covered hundreds of times. Fortunately, the forum provides me with an option to take care of that.

Oh I agree, but it is a blurry area in terms of animals being property or not. Everyone knows( or atleast I thought) hunting is necessary for the population, but the fact that we can do what we do is pretty damning evidence that animals can be seen as property.

I don't want to be the judge in that case.
 
WickedAngel said:
You seem to be having some extreme difficulties with this so I'll explain it as simply as possible.

1. Going to get a can of food from the supermarket does not do anything to control the current population of animals in the wild.

2. If that population is not managed, it will grow too rapidly.

3. The population becomes an overpopulation.

4. The overpopulation destroys aggricultural assets.

It really isn't that hard of a concept to follow but I can see why you're lost, considering how you are going back and forth across thoughts in an attempt to make a point.

Animals that are legal to hunt are legal to hunt because they must be destroyed. Even then, there are rules and regulations regarding the treatment of those animals and I have a hard time believing that a game warden would allow you to rig your car battery to a felled deer and finish it off.



:lol

I'm not sure what is worse; the radical, sociopathic "lols, animals dunt need rites" zealots or the opposite end of the spectrum that can't seem to understand the need for certain animals to die in order for humanity to live.

Why fuck are you acting condescending? You have done nothing but swim around in a circle. You continue to betray your cause by highlighting examples of mankind's destruction of animals instead of tolerance. Our population grows, theirs shrinks. You think American society respects that? You think American society is even conscious of it? Do you REALLY think they give a shit where or what has to die in order for them to drive their cars and eat their big macs?

You call me sociopathic because I attempt to equate our societies treatment of animals to their fucking morals and laws? Why am I the villain without a conscious when society as a whole is to blame for their hypocritical and circumstantial stance. I'm merely pointing it out!

You take your own self delusion at face value. The only difference between me and the majority of society that espouses animals rights is I'm conscious of the fact that it is not possible given our actions and practices. Which ironically I'm the sociopath because of said consciousness. I don't think you know what that even means which is especially amusing considering your condescending attitude.
 
avatar299 said:
:lol :lol We'll I know who to support now. People's attitude towards Canines is amazingly stupid.

George W. Bush fucked up. We should have invaded Iraq to liberate dogs. He'll still have support today if that was the case.



Oh I agree, but it is a blurry area in terms of animals being property or not. Everyone knows( or atleast I thought) hunting is necessary for the population, but the fact that we can do what we do is pretty damning evidence that animals can be seen as property.

I don't want to be the judge in that case.

Everyone knows that animals can be property though. That doesn't mean that the property can be used in whatever way you see fit. The use of private property is regulated (Just like everything else in the country).
 
WickedAngel said:
Everyone knows that animals can be property though. That doesn't mean that the property can be used in whatever way you see fit. The use of private property is regulated (Just like everything else in the country).

Of course it's regulated. It's regulated to the point to where I can do what I want with my legal property as long as it doesn't harm any one else.
 
WickedAngel said:
Everyone knows that animals can be property though. That doesn't mean that the property can be used in whatever way you see fit. The use of private property is regulated (Just like everything else in the country).

Regulated, yes. Overregulated.

What you do with your property should be your business and your business alone so long as you don't use it to do harm to someone else.

Once we get to the point where we agree that domesticated animals are property and wild animals are commodities / natural resources, then we're simply arguing about a need for regulation and restriction on how one uses the property.
 
JayDubya said:
Regulated, yes. Overregulated.

What you do with your property should be your business and your business alone so long as you don't use it to do harm to someone else.

BUT THEY HAVE RIGHTS

*Chomps double quarter pounder*

I sure am glad I ate that, I was about to starve to death.
 
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