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[Phoenix]

Hmmm I don't think so. If EA is doing Madden for the Xbox 2 launch it means they will have to make a quite different looking game from what they will sell at the same time on PS2 and NGC. Producing new characters models / textures and making a new engine to go with them costs a lot of money. And even with all that EA just can't be totally sure a Madden launch title would sell more than your yearly Xbox 1 upgrade.

When the PS2 first came out, EA was still supporting the PS1. This is no different. There is always an overlap where content is wrapping up for the previous generation console when the new one comes out. Again, this is pretty much common sense.

 

[Duckhuntdog]

Amazing, the article doesn't touch upon the big lay off at FASA. They are down to one puny team.

 

[Blimblim]

^ true
I don't really like what MS is doing with MGS since Ed Fries is gone, I guess he quit for a good reason.

 

[TheGreenGiant]

^ true
I don't really like what MS is doing with MGS since Ed Fries is gone, I guess he quit for a good reason.

I could be wrong but wasn't he actually ousted for costing them all that money for ... RARE. The whole.. leaving MGS thing is just a nice way of covering up the internal hijinks.

Isn't Seamus gone too? And pimping Phantom now? And he was their no.1 Xbox guy. Allard and Moore are fuckwits. Especially the latter.

I think this move could play out real bad - The one thing MS needs is titles on shelves. For Xenon, more so, considering how had they'll have to work to get Jap 3rd party.

 

[explodet]

Amazing, the article doesn't touch upon the big lay off at FASA. They are down to one puny team.

Aw, boooo!

 

[jedimike]

I could be wrong but wasn't he actually ousted for costing them all that money for ... RARE. The whole.. leaving MGS thing is just a nice way of covering up the internal hijinks.

Isn't Seamus gone too? And pimping Phantom now? And he was their no.1 Xbox guy. Allard and Moore are fuckwits. Especially the latter.

I think this move could play out real bad - The one thing MS needs is titles on shelves. For Xenon, more so, considering how had they'll have to work to get Jap 3rd party.

Nothing was ever official, but I think Fries was chastised for going after developers instead of games (Lanning, Shafer, Molyneux, and eventual the Stamper bros.). Shortly after his departure Kim came in and cleaned house, sans Molyneux.

Blackley left about a year after launch. I truly think he was just burnt out and wanted something different.

MS has plenty of titles on shelves and they needed to turn out quality instead of quantity. The XSN announcement was huge for them, even if it is hyperbole. Developers seem to welcome it.

 

[Guileless]

With PS2 Madden, EA knew it was building a new engine that would be the foundation of Madden for the next 5 years with the PS2 as the lead platform. Why rush to get something done for Xenon that won't sell much, when you can wait another year, develop it primarily for the PS3 (which should be more powerful), and sell millions copies of Madden 2006 on the PS2/Xbox/GC?

 

[Duckhuntdog]

Nothing was ever official, but I think Fries was chastised for going after developers instead of games (Lanning, Shafer, Molyneux, and eventual the Stamper bros.). Shortly after his departure Kim came in and cleaned house, sans Molyneux.

Blackley left about a year after launch. I truly think he was just burnt out and wanted something different.

MS has plenty of titles on shelves and they needed to turn out quality instead of quantity. The XSN announcement was huge for them, even if it is hyperbole. Developers seem to welcome it.

Always count on Jedimike for your daily Xbox spin.

 

[Duckhuntdog]

Aw, boooo!

Well it sucks as that little FASA team just waits till the other shoe drops. They are basically just another team that is burning cash, that for the most part isn't needed.

Bungie, MS will let burn cash, while they figure out what they are going to do next and MS will keep funding the blunder that is Rare, till either they get a ROI or can finally liquidate the company. That doesn't leave FASA a whole lot of room to manuver.

I think MS is going to trim down their development teams for Xbox down to just two companies, Bungie and Rare. The Utah team will get the axe soon as well.

 

[jarrod]

Nothing was ever official, but I think Fries was chastised for going after developers instead of games (Lanning, Shafer, Molyneux, and eventual the Stamper bros.). Shortly after his departure Kim came in and cleaned house, sans Molyneux.

Massive Attack has said repeatedly Fries mainly took the fall for the Rare buyout... I believe him.

 

[Phoenix]

With PS2 Madden, EA knew it was building a new engine that would be the foundation of Madden for the next 5 years with the PS2 as the lead platform. Why rush to get something done for Xenon that won't sell much, when you can wait another year, develop it primarily for the PS3 (which should be more powerful), and sell millions copies of Madden 2006 on the PS2/Xbox/GC?

Because primarily you won't have the exact same development team working on both projects. You will have core portable C/C++ code that is shared across all platforms and you will have an engine team building/porting the engine to the next generation platform. Unless you just don't plan on ever doing it - you lost absolutely nothing by having a team working on a next-gen port of your title to any platform that will support it. Its not like you can't do both - you do have more than 5 people working for you.

As to why rush - you rush for the same reason you do for any next generation platform, to establish your brand before anyone else. Additionally I'm not sure how you arrive at the conclusion that the Xenon won't sell much and that the PS3 will be more powerful because there is no evidence to support either statement.

 

[jedimike]

Massive Attack has said repaetedly Fries mainly took the fall for Rare failing to make any substantial returns (besides Nintendo published GBA ports) and deliver on their release timeframe promises... I believe him.

Isn't that what I just said?

It wasn't just Rare that got him in trouble... Lanning and Shafer were both sucking the MS tittie without delivering anything in return. Molyneux was also, but I guess MS figured they might be able to make a return on that investment.

 

[jarrod]

Isn't that what I just said?

Not really... sure Oddworld/Psychonauts/etc weren't coming along too well but by all respects the Rare investment has been a pretty high profile, expensive blunder so far. If not for Rare, Fries would still be securely in place.

 

[Guileless]

I meant that there won't be many Xenon owners soon after its launch, compared to the other established platforms. That will severely limit how many copies EA can sell. I'm wasn't talking about the long-term sales prospects. Also, I'm assuming that if the Xenon beats PS3 to market then the PS3 will be more powerful.

I will defer to you on the technical part of the argument: if it's easy to write a base code and port it to the other platforms, then it does indeed make sense to do it as early as possible. I'm also assuming that EA will build a new engine for the game from the ground up, as the current one is definitely showing its age. If they already have a true next-gen product ready to go next fall, then release it on Xenon. I hope they do, because I will buy it the day it comes out.

But if not, they should just wait a year. The Madden legions (you will pry their Dual Shock from their cold, dead hands) will happily wait for Sony's new console for the next Madden.

 

[jedimike]

Not really... sure Oddworld/Psychonauts/etc weren't coming along too well but by all respects the Rare investment has been a pretty high profile, expensive blunder so far. If not for Rare, Fries would still be securely in place.

"The world may never know"

I don't think Rare is thought of by MS as a blunder... just like the Xbox, it's an investment. However Tork, Psychonauts, Stranger, and TFLO were like car leases gone bad. At least MS owns Rare and the possibility for a return is there plus there are the intangibles that Rare buyout provided MS... like increased developer/publisher recognition, market presence, and increased consumer acceptability and conversely the decrease of such items for Nintendo.

 

[element]

I think MS is going to trim down their development teams for Xbox down to just two companies, Bungie and Rare. The Utah team will get the axe soon as well.

Outside of publishing, it looks like there will only be Bungie, Rare, and Ensemble soon.

However Tork, Psychonauts, Stranger, and TFLO were like car leases gone bad.

Not to mention games like, Kung Fu Chaos, Whacked!, Nightcaster, Quantum Redshift, Tao Feng, Voodoo Vince, and bunch of other games that never saw the light of day.

 

[jarrod]

I don't think Rare is thought of by MS as a blunder...

Fair enough, I should've specified the lack of any sort of significant return (critically or commercially) from the Rare investment.

However Tork, Psychonauts, Stranger, and TFLO were like car leases gone bad.

Eh, I'm not so sure about that in every case. Psychonauts sure wasn't shaping up too well evidently but Tork was solid (canned for being redundant after the Rare buyout), TFLO hugely anticipated (the current theory for the game's cancelation stems from it's potential release being too late in the XBox lifecycle for a MMORPG) and Stranger's actually turning out pretty good (now with EA on board).

At least MS owns Rare and the possibility for a return is there plus there are the intangibles that Rare buyout provided MS... like increased developer/publisher recognition, market presence, and increased consumer acceptability and conversely the decrease of such items for Nintendo.

All is very arguable, I'd say the Rare name is second only to Sega this generation for utterly damaged gaming brands. The past decade all Rare's high level success stories were either based off Nintendo licenses (DK, GoldenEye, SFA) or followed in their footsteps (Banjo, PD)... they've been bleeding staff the past few years, software delays generally stretch into years and the company's failed to make any sort of real world impact on the XBox market... I think even Microsoft has realized that $350 million would've been better spent elsewhere.

 

[element]

Fair enough, I should've specified the lack of any sort of significant return (critically or commercially) from the Rare investment.

Rare was a longterm investment. The payoff for Rare will be post-xbox, so Xenon and beyond.

 

[jarrod]

Rare was a longterm investment. The payoff for Rare will be post-xbox, so Xenon and beyond.

I dunno, seems everything concerning gaming with Microsoft is a "longterm investment" suddenly, absolved of even the idea of any sort of returns within the forseeable future. We'll see how long this excuse lasts...

 

[cvxfreak]

I dunno, seems everything concerning gaming with Microsoft is a "longterm investment" suddenly, absolved of even the idea of any sort of returns within the forseeable future. We'll see how long this excuse lasts...

I wonder how long it took Nintendo to make a 2 Billion profit over several years.

 

[Phoenix]

I dunno, seems everything concerning gaming with Microsoft is a "longterm investment" suddenly, absolved of even the idea of any sort of returns within the forseeable future. We'll see how long this excuse lasts...

Well it would be difficult to break into the market and make money right away. So for the first generation it would be like almost any other Microsoft product (or any other company for that matter) - you bleed money just to establish a market presence just like everyone else. The real question will be whether or not the investors get antsy if Xenon doesn't turn profit right away. While Microsoft has a bunch of cash, they are a public company and in the investors start to feel like Microsoft *really* doesn't have a clue about the market - Xenon could be the last console.

 

[PhatSaqs]

I dunno, seems everything concerning gaming with Microsoft is a "longterm investment" suddenly, absolved of even the idea of any sort of returns within the forseeable future. We'll see how long this excuse lasts...

Meh. As if this is the first time a company has chosen to make money losing investments in order to gain a foothold/respectability in a chosen market. This stuff is covered in high school.

 

[jarrod]

Meh. As if this is the first time a company has chosen to make money losing investments in order to gain a foothold/respectability in a chosen market. This stuff is covered in high school.

And how has MS gained "a foothold/respectability" with Rare exactly?

 

[Ghost]

And how has MS gained "a foothold/respectability" with Rare exactly?

[-] <--What you are looking at

[--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------] <--Big Picture


Its like saying 'how does buying a pad of paper write you a book' Its all part of the process of gaining a foothold.

 

[PhatSaqs]

Hence applying the term "longterm investment"?

 

[jarrod]

[-] <--What you are looking at

[--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------] <--Big Picture


Its like saying 'how does buying a pad of paper write you a book' Its all part of the process of gaining a foothold.

Well, I'm looking at the past 2 years... so you're saying we might see a return on that Rare investment in about 182 years? Wow that's some real longterm investment.

And $350M is pretty expensive for paper...

 

[Ghost]

Rare dont write books either, its called a metaphor.

 

[jarrod]

Rare dont write books either, its called a metaphor.

Understood, evidently you missed my point. To put it in terms of the metaphor, I doubt a publisher would spent more resources on paper than they expected to make a return from booksales using that paper. Even if they were a brand new publisher who wanted to grab a foothold in the publishing world.

So I guess long term investment is a nice way of saying short term failure?

 

[Lazy8s]

Guileless:

Why rush to get something done for Xenon that won't sell much, when you can wait another year, develop it primarily for the PS3 (which should be more powerful), and sell millions copies of Madden 2006 on the PS2/Xbox/GC?

... because SEGA Sports will be going all out for a Xenon launch title in an attempt to gain a hold on next-generation sports game marketshare. MS loves that the competition created by SEGA won't allow EA to wait until the later PS3 launch to start turning out polished next-generation product.

 

[JJConrad]

Guileless:

... because SEGA Sports will be going all out for a Xenon launch title in an attempt to gain a hold on next-generation sports game marketshare. MS loves that the competition created by SEGA won't allow EA to wait until the later PS3 launch to start turning out polished next-generation product.

Does EA really care what Sega is doing? Especially with a mid-season release, on a secondary console, for only one year? The 2k series did really well on the DC, but fell apart when facing Madden on the other consoles.

 

[element]

doesn't really matter if EA is making some kick ass launch xenon games!!

 

[Lazy8s]

EA has gotten where they are by acting competitively.

 

[JJConrad]

EA has gotten where they are by acting competitively.

They have?

I'm no EA basher, but I just don't see that. I credit most of their success to marketing and licenses. But this thread isn't about EA.


I think MS cutting off their sport labels is a mistake. Nintendo has never had their own regular sports line-up and I would blame the system's lack of sports fans on this. Even, if they don't sell terribly well, they create a selection of games that appeal to your general sports fan; which in turn, makes their system more appealing. The Genisis, Playstation, Ps2 and Xbox were all know (at least in part) for their sports game.


Let's play make-believe:
You're a casual gamer, who likes football, beer, and hooters. You know nothing of polygons, AA, or RAM. You want to play football, and maybe a few racing and/or shooting games inbetween, but those aren't as important. You hear Madden is the best, some say ESPN, but more say Madden. You look at each console and see:

Console A:
-Madden

Console B:
-Madden
-ESPN Football

Console C:
-Madden
-ESPN Football
-Gameday

Which would you choose? Even if you're only ever planning on getting Madden, Console C would look the most appealing.

This may be slightly over-simplified, but...There are too many uninformed sports fans out there give up this advantage.

 

[Guileless]

If there are 2 quality next gen football games ready for Xenon launch, then you really can't blame Microsoft for this. Has any console ever launched with 2 good football games? I can't think of one. That will be impossible for many people to resist, even knowing that the PS3 is coming.

 

[jarrod]

Has any console ever launched with 2 good football games? I can't think of one.

XBox had Mdden 2002 and NFL 2K2.

 

[JJConrad]

If there are 2 quality next gen football games ready for Xenon launch, then you really can't blame Microsoft for this. Has any console ever launched with 2 good football games? I can't think of one. That will be impossible for many people to resist, even knowing that the PS3 is coming.

"Quality" has yet to be seen.

What jarrod said, plus the PS2 launched with Madden and then Gameday three weeks later. GD may not had been quality, but brand was about as popular as Madden was at the time.