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Microsoft should create an engine to go against Ureal.

Sega Orphan

Sega Orphan

Banned
I had seen this topic mentioned before on a forum but couldn't find it in Gaf, but it really makes good sense, at least to me.
Microsoft now has some of the best first party game engines in the buisness.
Id tech 7 (id)
Forzatech (Turn 10)
Creation Engine (Bethesda)
Slipspace (343i)
Void Engine (Arkane)
And on top of that they will be having some cutting edge Engine tech coming in via Activision Blizzard such as IW Engine (Infinity Ward).

Microsoft is in a great position to take the best of all those engines to create a brand new cutting edge engine that incorporates all the DX12 U extensions such as Mesh Shaders, ML, SFS etc and then put it out as a third party middleware engine to compete against Unreal Engine. In that space there is only really UE, Unity and a bit of Crytech, which apparently is hard to program for.

With MSs software pedigree and coding resources they could put together an engine which would rival UE5.
Infact they are the company in the best position to do so. Their DX12U API is the leading API on PC, and Xbox by default. This could allow MS to chase other buisness areas such as Hollywood movie production like Epic is doing.
It creates another ecosystem for MS.
I think it compliments their existing products and Epic need some real opposition in that space.

Why not GAF? Why not?
 
A

arvfab

Banned
Creation Engine & Slipspace

Boston Celtics Lol GIF by NBA
 
Shubh_C63

Shubh_C63

Member
One of the reason why MS might think of this IF other developers leaves Unreal and started using there's. I am sure there is big money in this but realistically not gonna happen.

I wouldn't want MS to become EA also to have just one engine Frostbite and force all their developers to use it because of cost to effort ratio.

Also coming from the creators of Vista, GFWL and Windows Store, I don't think it is as easy as we think. Might take them 10 years to really nail their engine being user friendly (so many people know how to play with Unreal already) that it might not be worth it.
 
Sega Orphan

Sega Orphan

Banned
SlimeGooGoo said:
Or just use Unreal Engine...

U real?
Click to expand...
Then why do anything? Sony make a console, so why have an xbox?
Epic make alot of money from Unreal Engine. It's a source of income. If it was just as simple to use UE, why do all the other devs still have their own engines?
Microsoft are in the prime position compared to any other company to create an engine to go in opposition to Epic.
 
Sega Orphan

Sega Orphan

Banned
Chukhopops said:
Why does MS need to compete against UE5 when none of the main Sony studios use it?

The only Sony first party using UE4 I can think of is … Bend lol. All the main ones use proprietary engines.
Click to expand...
If MS was to create an engine to go against Epic, it would also be able to be used on PS5, like all other engines are as well.
Sony has like five or six studios using their own engines. That is like 0.1% of the development market.
 
Sega Orphan

Sega Orphan

Banned
Shubh_C63 said:
One of the reason why MS might think of this IF other developers leaves Unreal and started using there's. I am sure there is big money in this but realistically not gonna happen.

I wouldn't want MS to become EA also to have just one engine Frostbite and force all their developers to use it because of cost to effort ratio.

Also coming from the creators of Vista, GFWL and Windows Store, I don't think it is as easy as we think. Might take them 10 years to really nail their engine being user friendly (so many people know how to play with Unreal already) that it might not be worth it.
Click to expand...
I would agree if MS was to make an engine from scratch with no experience, but they have idtech 7 and others to base it off.
Some engines are more suited to open worlds, some not. They could have an engine that has two or three divergent engines. Say they call it Xbox Engine Suite. In that suite there are a number of different engine types that is more tailored to that type of game they are looking at. They all use the same interface, so the devs don't have to learn the different engines for different games.
That was the mistake EA made with Frostbite. They were trying to make a car game be developed in a engine suited for FPS games.
MS has a brilliant car game engine in Forzatech, idtech 7 is a high level FPS, IW 8.0 is also an exceptional engine for FPS and so on.
Anyone thinking MS doesn't have high level engines under their control, or think that Unreal is the only engine anyone needs are way out of touch.
There should be opposition to Unreal Engine, for a healthy industry if nothing else, and MS is best positioned to do it. Unity is a beginners engine and Crytech is a pain in the arse to use.
 
vaibhavpisal

vaibhavpisal

Member
Monopoly something something.

They allow steam on their platform. Can't make everything themselves.

They do have good game engines but mostly for internal use.
 
Heisenberg007

Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
They tried with Slipspace and failed. I think it'd be a better strategic and economic decision, at least in the short term, to just use Unreal Engine 5 as most of their devs are currently doing.

Once their teams become better, perhaps Coalition and PlayGround can get together and work on an in-house open-world engine that a bunch of their teams can customize and use.
 
Leyasu

Leyasu

Banned
Heisenberg007 said:
They tried with Slipspace and failed. I think it'd be a better strategic and economic decision, at least in the short term, to just use Unreal Engine 5 as most of their devs are currently doing.

Once their teams become better, perhaps Coalition and PlayGround can get together and work on an in-house open-world engine that a bunch of their teams can customize and use.
Click to expand...
What? 343 didn’t even try, they just tried to update the decades old original engine and it has obviously backfired in spectacular fashion given the time that it takes to do anything.

But if you want to lump everyone into a “they” then you can say that “they” have already tried and made a very competent forza engine. It seems like playground are using it for fable too. It will be interesting to see how it goes.
 
Heisenberg007

Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
Leyasu said:
What? 343 didn’t even try, they just tried to update the decades old original engine and it has obviously backfired in spectacular fashion given the time that it takes to do anything.

But if you want to lump everyone into a “they” then you can say that “they” have already tried and made a very competent forza engine. It seems like playground are using it for fable too. It will be interesting to see how it goes.
Click to expand...
I don't know the inner workings of the studio of course and how much effort they put in the creation of that engine, but it seems like Microsoft as a company went big into Slipspace?

Halo franchise director Frank O'Connor talked about what Slipspace means for the future of Halo.

"We had to create an engine that was more powerful for next-generation development, but also more nimble, so the creatives and engineers are able to work more easily and iterate faster," O'Connor said in the video. "This technical groundwork is vital to build a platform for the future of Halo."

"You have to make tools that allow you to make new features that maybe weren't thought about," said David Berger, engineering director at 343 Industries. "You've gotta give the content-creators room to ideate outside of that."
Click to expand...
And to your second point, that's exactly what I said. Playground (with Coalition) can help MS create an in-house engine that other XGS studios can also use. It could be a brand new engine or in the form of a customized Forza engine that they are planning to use for Fable.
 
Sega Orphan

Sega Orphan

Banned
Heisenberg007 said:
They tried with Slipspace and failed. I think it'd be a better strategic and economic decision, at least in the short term, to just use Unreal Engine 5 as most of their devs are currently doing.

Once their teams become better, perhaps Coalition and PlayGround can get together and work on an in-house open-world engine that a bunch of their teams can customize and use.
Click to expand...
Slipspace was done by 343i. People like to quote that as a reason MS shouldn't do it, yet Forzatech is a legit high level engine that not only works in racing games but is an excellent open world game, shown by Forza Horizon and Playground choosing it to also use on Fable.

Edit : beaten by leyasu
 
Last edited:
Heisenberg007

Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
Sega Orphan said:
Slipspace was done by 343i. People like to quote that as a reason MS shouldn't do it, yet Forzatech is a legit high level engine that not only works in racing games but is an excellent open world game, shown by Forza Horizon and Playground choosing it to also use on Fable.

Edit : beaten by leyasu
Click to expand...
Yes, again, I'm saying the same thing. Playground can work on an in-house engine that not just works for vehicle-based games but also for other games, such as Hellblade, for example. Now this could be in the form of a brand-new engine or a customized version of their Forza engine (ala, the one being used for Fable). In addition, I said that I'd also like to see Coalition helping PG when they are working on that engine.
 
Leyasu

Leyasu

Banned
Heisenberg007 said:
I don't know the inner workings of the studio of course and how much effort they put in the creation of that engine, but it seems like Microsoft as a company went big into Slipspace?


And to your second point, that's exactly what I said. Playground (with Coalition) can help MS create an in-house engine that other XGS studios can also use. It could be a brand new engine or in the form of a customized Forza engine that they are planning to use for Fable.
Click to expand...
Looking at what they got, I find it hard to believe that they went in big on slipspace. If they had, We probably would have ended up with a completely new from the ground up engine. This is more on the competency of 343. We will see the difference once turn 10 unveils their new motorsport running on their new engine.

I don’t know if it’s true or not, but I read that 343 considered porting everything over to UE5. Still something isn’t right, it’s obviously still taking them a geological age to do anything with what they have.
 
Bernkastel

Bernkastel

Ask me about my fanboy energy!
arvfab said:
Bo_Hazem said:
Sometimes it's cheaper and guaranteed to use UE if you really have incompetent devs who will end up fucking up all the R&D money with a shit engine.
Click to expand...
This usually happens only 1 out of 343 times, thou.
Click to expand...
Since when Slipspace become a shit engine? Is this the new way to say "I hope Halo swiches to Unreal Engine"?
Heisenberg007 said:
They tried with Slipspace and failed.
Click to expand...
Slipspace was not "trying anything" to be Unreal Engine? Halo will not be Halo without any of the Blam Engine physics. The only purpose of Slipspace Engine is to modernize Blam Engine to make development of Halo easier, the first 3 years of Halo Infinite's development upto 2018 were spent on building the new engine. Heck even read Destiny's development which is based off Blam Engine
gearnuke.com

Destiny's Game Engine Was A Complete Mess, Took Hours Just To Do A Half-Second Change

Destiny was developed on an in-house engine by Bungie, which took quite a lot of time and years of development for them. However, it turns out that this
gearnuke.com gearnuke.com
HP_Diagram_BlamHistory-Full.png
As I was typing this your new post further proves my point
Heisenberg007 said:
I don't know the inner workings of the studio of course and how much effort they put in the creation of that engine, but it seems like Microsoft as a company went big into Slipspace?
Click to expand...
Halo franchise director Frank O'Connor talked about what Slipspace means for the future of Halo.

"We had to create an engine that was more powerful for next-generation development, but also more nimble, so the creatives and engineers are able to work more easily and iterate faster," O'Connor said in the video. "This technical groundwork is vital to build a platform for the future of Halo."

"You have to make tools that allow you to make new features that maybe weren't thought about," said David Berger, engineering director at 343 Industries. "You've gotta give the content-creators room to ideate outside of that."
Click to expand...
Its only made for Halo or if anything else 343i or there partners like Certain Affinity dip into.
Heisenberg007 said:
Once their teams become better, perhaps Coalition and PlayGround can get together and work on an in-house open-world engine that a bunch of their teams can customize and use.
Click to expand...
Heisenberg007 said:
And to your second point, that's exactly what I said. Playground (with Coalition) can help MS create an in-house engine that other XGS studios can also use. It could be a brand new engine or in the form of a customized Forza engine that they are planning to use for Fable.
Click to expand...
They have id Tech, which apart from id Software is used by Arkane, MachineGames and Tango Gameworks for there own tools(like Arkane's Void Engine). It once competed with Unreal Engine as a third party engine. Both Valve's Source Engine and Activision's IW engine for COD were based off id Tech. But Zenimax stopped licensing id Tech when they bought them. That said these should not be studio wide mandate like Frostbite, studios like Coalition that prefer Unreal should stick to it.
 
Last edited:
C

CuteFaceJay

Member
I don't think MS has enough assburgers to even make something on the same caliber as Unreal. Sure they've got talent but it takes a lot of work and time to make something that Epic has with Unreal.

Unreal has been developed since day 1 of GPU's being a thing pretty much. I don't want to sound like a hype man for Epic but they've done well with developing Unreal over the years.
 
G

gundalf

Member
OP I understand your thought but you have to see that all those engines are not general purpose and solve specific issues those studios needed to have solved.
Its just cheaper to use UE than building your own general purpose engine.
 
nemiroff

nemiroff

Gold Member
These discussions are usually of high entertainment value but only because it usually generates an output which is so fucking stupid it's beyond beleif.. I mean, first of all let's define what an "engine" actually is. Let me give an obvious hint: It's not necessarily what you see on the screen as an end user.. It's more about the flexibility and efficiency of the toolset. I love this topic, but I wish the discussion went a little deeper than usual for once.

Edit: I see that some people are on point, good to see, thank you!
 
Last edited:
ZehDon

ZehDon

Gold Member
Sega Orphan said:
I had seen this topic mentioned before on a forum but couldn't find it in Gaf, but it really makes good sense, at least to me.
Microsoft now has some of the best first party game engines in the buisness.
Id tech 7 (id)
Forzatech (Turn 10)
Creation Engine (Bethesda)
Slipspace (343i)
Void Engine (Arkane)
And on top of that they will be having some cutting edge Engine tech coming in via Activision Blizzard such as IW Engine (Infinity Ward).

Microsoft is in a great position to take the best of all those engines to create a brand new cutting edge engine that incorporates all the DX12 U extensions such as Mesh Shaders, ML, SFS etc and then put it out as a third party middleware engine to compete against Unreal Engine. In that space there is only really UE, Unity and a bit of Crytech, which apparently is hard to program for.

With MSs software pedigree and coding resources they could put together an engine which would rival UE5.
Infact they are the company in the best position to do so. Their DX12U API is the leading API on PC, and Xbox by default. This could allow MS to chase other buisness areas such as Hollywood movie production like Epic is doing.
It creates another ecosystem for MS.
I think it compliments their existing products and Epic need some real opposition in that space.

Why not GAF? Why not?
Click to expand...
You should be drawn and quartered for comparing Id Tech to the absolute garbage that is Slipspace.
 
Bernkastel

Bernkastel

Ask me about my fanboy energy!
Both Blizzard and Zenimax Online Studios also use their own thing.
www.neogaf.com

Zenimax Online Studios is working on a new IP with a brand new engine

It was actually known for a while and has supposedly been a thing since 2018, but its great to see more official confirmation from the Lead Graphics Engineer.
www.neogaf.com www.neogaf.com
Microsoft also owns the Hex engine used in Killer Instinct, which was really good for action games.
Sega Orphan said:
With MSs software pedigree and coding resources they could put together an engine which would rival UE5.
Click to expand...
These examples I mentioned are meant for specific use cases like Slipspace with 343i. They should not force devs to use one engine for everything. It would be like Microsoft making a mandate that all their software be developed in C# with .NET framework.
Sega Orphan said:
Id tech 7 (id)
Void Engine (Arkane)
Click to expand...
Void Engine and by extension engine tech used by MachineGames and Tango Gameworks and also Valve's Source Engine and COD's IW engine are all based off id Tech. What Microsoft should use is license id Tech to third party like it was the case when it directly competed with Unreal.
 
Last edited:
Bernkastel

Bernkastel

Ask me about my fanboy energy!
arvfab said:
Exactly, that's why I can see that the Forza engine is a good one, even thou I'm not into racing games, while Slipspace is a bad one.
Click to expand...
But ForzaTech(or Unreal or id Tech) can't make a Halo game that plays like a Halo game.
 
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