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Microsoft: XBox 360 outpowers PS3

from the original source

==============================================
Xbox 360 vs. PS3

Posted: May 20, 2005 @ 10:37 am (8 hours, 5 minutes ago) By: Major Nelson
One of the great things about working at Xbox is that we have some of the
smartest people in the world working on the Xbox 360. When Sony came
announced the PS3, along with the product specs some of our team started
looking at some of the numbers to see what they mean. Floating Point,
shaders, bandwidth..what does it all mean. Clearly there are some numbers
and stats that mean more to gaming then others, so the team cranked out some
facts for everyone to absorb. Our world class technology team looked at the
numbers and claims and decided to do what everyone else does: compare them
to the PS3. The difference it that these guys are uniquely qualified to do
so, and can cut through the smoke and mirrors to see what the real deal is.
To that end, I present this summary, which I have broken up into four parts
to make it more RSS Reader friendly.

Warning: Some of this stuff may make your head hurt, but these are the facts
as they stand right now. Enjoy the read:

XBOX 360 / PLAYSTATION 3 PERFORMANCE COMPARISON

SUMMARY
Now that the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 specifications have been announced,
it is possible to do a real world performance comparison of the two systems.

There are three critical performance aspects of a console:
. Central Processing Unit (CPU) performance.
o The Xbox 360 CPU architecture has three times the general purpose
processing power of the Cell.
. Graphics Processing Unit (GPU) performance
o The Xbox 360 GPU design is more flexible and it has more processing power
than the PS3 GPU.
. Memory System Bandwidth
o The memory system bandwidth in Xbox 360 exceeds the PS3's by five times.



index.7.gif


The Xbox 360's CPU has more general purpose processing power because it has
three general purpose cores, and Cell has just one.



index.8.gif


Cell's claimed advantage is on streaming floating point work which is done
on its seven DSP processors.



index.3.gif


The Xbox 360 GPU has more processing power than the PS3's. In addition, its
innovated features contribute to overall rendering performance.

index.4.gif


Xbox 360 has 278.4 GB/s of memory system bandwidth. The PS3 has less than
one-fifth of Xbox 360's (48 GB/s) of total memory system bandwidth.





CONCLUSION
When you break down the numbers, Xbox 360 has provably more performance than
PS3. Keep in mind that Sony has a track record of over promising and under
delivering on technical performance. The truth is that both systems pack a
lot of power for high definition games and entertainment.

However, hardware performance, while important, is only a third of the
puzzle. Xbox 360 is a fusion of hardware, software and services. Without the
software and services to power it, even the most powerful hardware becomes
inconsequential. Xbox 360 games-by leveraging cutting-edge hardware,
software, and services-will outperform the PlayStation 3.







DETAILED ANALYSIS OF PERFORMANCE SPECIFICATIONS

CPU
The Xbox 360 processor was designed to give game developers the power that
they actually need, in an easy to use form. The Cell processor has
impressive streaming floating-point power that is of limited use for games.

The majority of game code is a mixture of integer, floating-point, and
vector math, with lots of branches and random memory accesses. This code is
best handled by a general purpose CPU with a cache, branch predictor, and
vector unit.

The Cell's seven DSPs (what Sony calls SPEs) have no cache, no direct access
to memory, no branch predictor, and a different instruction set from the PS3's
main CPU. They are not designed for or efficient at general purpose
computing. DSPs are not appropriate for game programming.

Xbox 360 has three general purpose CPU cores. The Cell processor has only
one.

Xbox 360's CPUs has vector processing power on each CPU core. Each Xbox 360
core has 128 vector registers per hardware thread, with a dot product
instruction, and a shared 1-MB L2 cache. The Cell processor's vector
processing power is mostly on the seven DSPs.

Dot products are critical to games because they are used in 3D math to
calculate vector lengths, projections, transformations, and more. The Xbox
360 CPU has a dot product instruction, where other CPUs such as Cell must
emulate dot product using multiple instructions.

Cell's streaming floating-point work is done on its seven DSP processors.
Since geometry processing is moved to the GPU, the need for streaming
floating-point work and other DSP style programming in games has dropped
dramatically.

Just like with the PS2's Emotion Engine, with its missing L2 cache, the Cell
is designed for a type of game programming that accounts for a minor
percentage of processing time.

Sony's CPU is ideal for an environment where 12.5% of the work is
general-purpose computing and 87.5% of the work is DSP calculations. That
sort of mix makes sense for video playback or networked waveform analysis,
but not for games. In fact, when analyzing real games one finds almost the
opposite distribution of general purpose computing and DSP calculation
requirements. A relatively small percentage of instructions are actually
floating point. Of those instructions which are floating-point, very few
involve processing continuous streams of numbers. Instead they are used in
tasks like AI and path-finding, which require random access to memory and
frequent branches, which the DSPs are ill-suited to.

Based on measurements of running next generation games, only ~10-30% of the
instructions executed are floating point. The remainders of the instructions
are load, store, integer, branch, etc. Even fewer of the instructions
executed are streaming floating point-probably ~5-10%. Cell is optimized for
streaming floating-point, with 87.5% of its cores good for streaming
floating-point and nothing else.

index.7.gif


index.8.gif




GPU
Even ignoring the bandwidth limitations the PS3's GPU is not as powerful as
the Xbox 360's GPU.

Below are the specs from Sony's press release regarding the PS3's GPU.

RSX GPU
. 550 MHz
. Independent vertex/pixel shaders
. 51 billion dot products per second (total system performance)
. 300M transistors
. 136 "shader operations" per clock

The interesting ALU performance numbers are 51 billion dot products per
second (total system performance), 300M transistors, and more than twice as
powerful as the 6800 Ultra.

The 51 billions dot products per cycle were listed on a summary slide of
total graphics system performance and are assumed to include the Cell
processor. Sony's calculations seem to assume that the Cell can do a dot
product per cycle per DSP, despite not having a dot product instruction.

However, using Sony's claim, 7 dot products per cycle * 3.2 GHz = 22.4
billion dot products per second for the CPU. That leaves 51 - 22.4 = 28.6
billion dot products per second that are left over for the GPU. That leaves
28.6 billion dot products per second / 550 MHz = 52 GPU ALU ops per clock.

It is important to note that if the RSX ALUs are similar to the GeForce 6800
ALUs then they work on vector4s, while the Xbox 360 GPU ALUs work on
vector5s. The total programmable GPU floating point performance for the PS3
would be 52 ALU ops * 4 floats per op *2 (madd) * 550 MHz = 228.8 GFLOPS
which is less than the Xbox 360's 48 ALU ops * 5 floats per op * 2 (madd) *
500 MHz= 240 GFLOPS.

With the number of transistors being slightly larger on the Xbox 360 GPU
(330M) it's not surprising that the total programmable GFLOPs number is very
close.



index.5.gif


The PS3 does have the additional 7 DSPs on the Cell to add more floating
point ops for graphics rendering, but the Xbox 360's three general purpose
cores with custom D3D and dot product instructions are more customized for
true graphics related calculations.

The 6800 Ultra has 16 pixel pipes, 6 vertex pipes, and runs at 400 MHz.
Given the RSX's 2x better than a 6800 Ultra number and the higher frequency
of the RSX, one can roughly estimate that it will have 24 pixel shading
pipes and 4 vertex shading pipes (fewer vertex shading pipes since the Cell
DSPs will do some vertex shading). If the PS3 GPU keeps the 6800 pixel
shader pipe co-issue architecture which is hinted at in Sony's press
release, this again gives it 24 pixel pipes* 2 issued per pipe + 4 vertex
pipes = 52 dot products per clock in the GPU.

If the RSX follows the 6800 Ultra route, it will have 24 texture samplers,
but when in use they take up an ALU slot, making the PS3 GPU in practice
even less impressive. Even if it does manage to decouple texture fetching
from ALU co-issue, it won't have enough bandwidth to fetch the textures
anyways.

For shader operations per clock, Sony is most likely counting each pixel
pipe as four ALU operations (co-issued vector+scalar) and a texture
operation per pixel pipe and 4 scalar operations for each vector pipe, for a
total of 24 * (4 + 1) + (4*4) = 136 operations per cycle or 136 * 550 = 74.8
GOps per second.



index.3.gif


Given the Xbox 360 GPU's multithreading and balanced design, you really can't
compare the two systems in terms of shading operations per clock. However,
the Xbox 360's GPU can do 48 ALU operations (each can do a vector4 and
scalar op per clock), 16 texture fetches, 32 control flow operations, and 16
programmable vertex fetch operations with tessellation per clock for a total
of 48*2 + 16 + 32 + 16 = 160 operations per cycle or 160 * 500 = 80 GOps per
second.

Overall, the automatic shader load balancing, memory export features,
programmable vertex fetching, programmable triangle tesselator, full rate
texture fetching in the vertex shader, and other "well beyond shader model
3.0" features of the Xbox 360 GPU should also contribute to overall
rendering performance.







Bandwidth
The PS3 has 22.4 GB/s of GDDR3 bandwidth and 25.6 GB/s of RDRAM bandwidth
for a total system bandwidth of 48 GB/s.

The Xbox 360 has 22.4 GB/s of GDDR3 bandwidth and a 256 GB/s of EDRAM
bandwidth for a total of 278.4 GB/s total system bandwidth.

index.4.gif




Why does the Xbox 360 have such an extreme amount of bandwidth? Even the
simplest calculations show that a large amount of bandwidth is consumed by
the frame buffer. For example, with simple color rendering and Z testing at
550 MHz the frame buffer alone requires 52.8 GB/s at 8 pixels per clock. The
PS3's memory bandwidth is insufficient to maintain its GPU's peak rendering
speed, even without texture and vertex fetches.

The PS3 uses Z and color compression to try to compensate for the lack of
memory bandwidth. The problem with Z and color compression is that the
compression breaks down quickly when rendering complex next-generation 3D
scenes.

HDR, alpha-blending, and anti-aliasing require even more memory bandwidth.
This is why Xbox 360 has 256 GB/s bandwidth reserved just for the frame
buffer. This allows the Xbox 360 GPU to do Z testing, HDR, and alpha blended
color rendering with 4X MSAA at full rate and still have the entire main bus
bandwidth of 22.4 GB/s left over for textures and vertices.

CONCLUSION
When you break down the numbers, Xbox 360 has provably more performance than
PS3. Keep in mind that Sony has a track record of over promising and under
delivering on technical performance. The truth is that both systems pack a
lot of power for high definition games and entertainment.

However, hardware performance, while important, is only a third of the
puzzle. Xbox 360 is a fusion of hardware, software and services. Without the
software and services to power it, even the most powerful hardware becomes
inconsequential. Xbox 360 games-by leveraging cutting-edge hardware,
software, and services-will outperform the PlayStation 3.
============================================



this HAS to be at least partly BS.

you know, an equally biased article could be written showing that PS3 outpowers Xbox360 360. :lol :lol
 
What bullshit.

Apart from the obviously iffy bandwidth comparisons, how exactly did MS determine that "The Xbox 360 CPU architecture has three times the general purpose
processing power of the Cell.". :lol

Ah damage control, how sweet it is.
 
doesn't mean anything to me either... but I'll push the I belive button.

Microsoft still has the most powerful hardware!

Of course, none of us will be able to tell the difference (in the games).
 
Goreomedy said:
Well, if that doesn't smack of insecurity.
Because Microsoft is the first to make graphs depicting their system's superior power..
 
Its a joke...The XGPU is an awsome piece of hardware without having to resort to stupid graphs like these.

Of paticular stupidity are the comparisons of general purpose CPU comparisons and the bandwidth chart.
 
microsoft is doing everything it can to get the xbox 360 to outsell the ps3 next gen. by any means necessary

hey CVXFREAK, you see Final Fight Streetwise? ehhh
 
Striek said:
What bullshit.

Apart from the obviously iffy bandwidth comparisons, how exactly did MS determine that "The Xbox 360 CPU architecture has three times the general purpose
processing power of the Cell.". :lol

Ah damage control, how sweet it is.

I know that the RSX can use the 256 XDR ram for extra VRAM and other realted GFX process, but if the cell can't do this then MS has a point with that argument.
 
Don't know why MS is getting itself involved in this pissing match. Being the most powerful doesn't guarantee success. If the X360 is close that is fine and power won't be a huge issue.

*Unless* MS wants to make it an issue and it is a battle they will lose and look stupid in the process. Meh.
 
Striek said:
Apart from the obviously iffy bandwidth comparisons, how exactly did MS determine that "The Xbox 360 CPU architecture has three times the general purpose
processing power of the Cell.". :lol

because MS has 3 cores while Sony only has 1! Duh. Didn't you read your MS viral marketing pamphlet?
 
face it fanboys xbox360 is more powerful, its not worth living in denial.

at least tons of casuals will read it and know the truth instead of hearing rumors about cgi being gameplay.

+10 microsoft.
 
Joe said:
face it fanboys xbox360 is more powerful, its not worth living in denial.

at least tons of casuals will read it and know the truth instead of hearing rumors about cgi being gameplay.

+10 microsoft.

LMFAO

Hey guys, I'm back! Is the Xbox360 more powerful yet?






















What about now?
 
It seems a little disturbing that TeamXbox more-or-less reprinted this without telling anyone that it's direct-from-Microsoft spin. Partially because it's plaigarism (not that MS would care), and partially because it looks like someone's independent analysis. I know the site is supposed to have a huge pro-Xbox bias for the sake of getting its readers riled up, but at least let them know when you're just repeating when a corporation tells you. The whole concept of ViralMarketerNelson.com is kind of shady, so it's no surprise to see this there sans disclaimer.

The bandwidth comparison is kind of corny, just in that there's only 10 megs of memory that have a lot of bandwidth and the rest is pretty much comparable to the Playstation 3. But since there's some tiny amount with a little bit of memory they add it in. Amusingly, if you use the the same philosophy to compare current gen systems, PS2 murders the original Xbox.....

chart.jpg
 
Wario64 said:
microsoft is doing everything it can to get the xbox 360 to outsell the ps3 next gen. by any means necessary

hey CVXFREAK, you see Final Fight Streetwise? ehhh
what? there's a new final fight?

*goes off to check ign/gamespot*
 
first 360 runs at 30 - 40 % of its power and now this bullshit, I think microsoft really in a very bad situation :lol :lol :lol
 
Twix said:
first 360 runs at 30 - 40 % of its power and now this bullshit, I think microsoft really in a very bad situation :lol :lol :lol

Oh please. I guess you wasn't there to compare the performance difference of the Alpha Kits (G5) on Microsoft booth with the Beta device on ATI's booth.

Nuff said.
 
Instead of making this crap up, shouldn't they be spending their time working on those beta dev kits they are shipping next month?
 
border said:
The bandwidth comparison is kind of corny, just in that there's only 10 megs of memory that have a lot of bandwidth and the rest is pretty much comparable to the Playstation 3. But since there's some tiny amount with a little bit of memory they add it in. Amusingly, if you use the the same philosophy to compare current gen systems, PS2 murders the original Xbox.....

chart.jpg
Also because the 256GB/s figure that they are throwing around isn't even from GPU to eDRAM, its from eDRAM to eDRAM.

Remember the 256GB/s bandwidth figure from earlier? It turns out that that's not how much bandwidth is between the parent and daughter die, but rather the bandwidth available to this array of 192 floating point units on the daughter die itself. Clever use of words, no?

http://anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=2423&p=2

People say Sony like to pull the wool over consumers eyes, but hell, MS is telling tha straight up truth yo!
 
If Sony & nVidia are comfortable with its purported system capability in PS3, then they should release all of the specs on the system already. Same goes for MS & ATI with the X360. Until the final systems are done and truly finalized will this madness stop. Don't get me wrong, I love reading about numbers and shit and trying to get my THC-addled brain to try and figure it out...but this is getting out of hand :lol
 
To play the devil's advocate perhaps, just perhaps, MS got wind of how Sony put their numbers together and are simply playing the same dirty game. But, since Sony only released their number without any real details, we won't know for awhile.
 
GhaleonEB said:
I love how when Sony posts this stuff, Sony sploodged. When MS points out the details, we mock.

Sonycowboy rant in 3....2.....1...........

I'm too tired and confused.

This is an official document from Microsoft and it's clear that some of the numbers are half baked, but they've also got to know that they'd be called on it if it were outright lies.

I'm to the point of not caring anymore. It's been too long of a week.

I'm getting both systems and I know how powerful the PS3 will be based on what Sony showed and if the Xbox360 is MORE powerful, then gaming will be all the better for it.

Next-Gen fever finally caught me this week and I'll be picking up the Xbox360 by the end of the year as no current gen games seem all that appealing. More than that though, the Xbox Live integration features look too cool not to jump onto.
 
I'm surprised MS has struck back so soon. This is going to be a great generation. The Evil Empire is here, last gen, it was their representative. We are going to get the real deal now
 
Striek said:
What bullshit.

Apart from the obviously iffy bandwidth comparisons, how exactly did MS determine that "The Xbox 360 CPU architecture has three times the general purpose
processing power of the Cell.". :lol

Ah damage control, how sweet it is.
He means they have three general purpose cores. While PS3 has has one general purpose cpu and 7 DSP's
 
I'm not really gonna take what MS is saying seriously. It doesn't really matter to me which is more powerful. I'm definately getting both.

But if this is official MS stuff, I'm thinking that there will be some developer backlash associated with it. Backlash in the sense that developers will come out and say "This is BS". I'd trust a 3rd party developer (who develops extensively for both) over anyone else.

Well, they may not say "This is BS", but they can say it in other ways that will let us know that MS is being shady here.
 
So MS is sending out xbot re-education packages to commercial fansites? :lol I kid, but that's some seriously inaccurate bullshit being bandied around as a tech writeup. Oh well, I hope Sony/NVidia doesn't get in on this too. They already annoyed the hell out of me with that 2TFLOP bullshit. I'm hoping they still get us some detailed specs like they did with the PS2. PEACE.
 
Agent Icebeezy said:
I'm surprised MS has struck back so soon. This is going to be a great generation. The Evil Empire is here, last gen, it was their representative. We are going to get the real deal now

What did they strike back with? Half baked lies? Man, what was shown was what was shown.

Given everything that was shown, hardware, tech demos, etc, etc, the only pluses for the X360 vs PS3 comparison are that they have a better looking controller, and that they'll release earlier.
 
now where did they get all those crap from ?

according to information, the final hardware's not even avaliable for both xbox360 and PS3.
 
But I thought it wasn't about power for them this time, it's about the games. :lol

I dont think they should get in a pissing match with Sony over who has more power, The PS3 is coming out quite a bit after 360, no doubt which one will be more powerful, just a matter of how much more.
 
If the 360 were truly more powerful, this would have not been necessary.

Why did the bigwigs at MS try to dodge the hard questions the last few days?
 
sonycowboy said:
Next-Gen fever finally caught me this week and I'll be picking up the Xbox360 by the end of the year as no current gen games seem all that appealing. More than that though, the Xbox Live integration features look too cool not to jump onto.

Great. I look forward to game impressions.
 
MS should have known better than to show the demos they did. What was present at E3 really did make it out to be XBOX 1.5. That's not likely to be the case, but it sure seemed that way...
 
sonycowboy said:
I'm too tired and confused.

This is an official document from Microsoft and it's clear that some of the numbers are half baked, but they've also got to know that they'd be called on it if it were outright lies.

I'm to the point of not caring anymore. It's been too long of a week.

I'm getting both systems and I know how powerful the PS3 will be based on what Sony showed and if the Xbox360 is MORE powerful, then gaming will be all the better for it.

Next-Gen fever finally caught me this week and I'll be picking up the Xbox360 by the end of the year as no current gen games seem all that appealing. More than that though, the Xbox Live integration features look too cool not to jump onto.

Edited my post - shot at you was uncalled for. Had a baby shrieking in my ear and got testy. Apologies.
 
Well, I'm not too sure about the BS in the writeup...I'm not a tech geek...but in the context of what they talking about in their comparison between the systems about general purpose performance sounds reasonable to me. They explain why they're stacking general purpose performance of the two against each other for the reason that they feel that game code isn't as reliant on FP math (on CPU) as Cell processor's extreme FP performance would lead someone to believe. That's a reasonable statement, since you'd be relying on FP for 3D, effects, and simulations...which the GPU would be repsonsible for in large part through shaders. Physics simulations would need that FP capability, but XCPU already provides plenty of that, though no where near the amount that PS3's CPU provides. It sounds more balanced given what an average title would probably need on the CPU.

Where the memory bandwidth comparison sounds ridiculous, it doesn't sound too ridiculous in the actual writing of the article where it is explained that the extreme amount of bandwidth provided by ATI for the GPU main part to the daughter part (where the EDRAM+logic is held) is to all but eliminate the need to send that same data through the buses as much as you would do with the PS3 and its RSX. By keeping the amount of data flow low to RAM and doing all of your buffer work on the GPU side before kicking it out for rasterization after it hits mian RAM, you leave the channels open for more time sensitive work that needs to be sent to RAM and shared across from the L2. It saves bandwidth and cache hits by making the most common work happen close to home instead of commuting constantly...freeing up traffic flow.

Everything else either sounds odd, or is pretty much up for debate to me...and I'm not even trying to defend the validity of the article, but some of it makes a lot of sense to me. I don't know if I even got any of this right...remember, I'm not a tech person...but the two paragraphs I wrote above make sense to me if I even understood it correctly. OK, so now some tech-minded person come in and tell me if what I wrote is wrong, off, or correct. I don't mind. I'm just trying to understand this shit.
 
AB 101 said:
If the PS3 were truly more powerful, Sony's graphs would have not been necessary.

Why did the bigwigs at Sony try to dodge the hard questions about rendered movies the last few days?

Fixed for your viewing pleasure.
 
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