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[Kewk]

calm down there buddy, i was merely explaining rayne's comment to klee...

btw, what kind of substance do you have to (ab)use to think COD2 is even close to being a contender for best looking?

*reads tag*

oh.. i see... :lol :lol :lol

Klee back me up here eh? Obviously my "status" somehow cancles any opinion I have on any title we make let alone a title I work on. You can tell me all day and all night that COD2 is not the best looking launch title out there but I would love to see live gameplay footage that proves it.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Klee back me up here eh? Obviously my "status" somehow cancles any opinion I have on any title we make let alone a title I work on. You can tell me all day and all night that COD2 is not the best looking launch title out there but I would love to see live gameplay footage that proves it.

and every parent believes their baby is the most beautiful one in the world, and to most of them it's true, they could pass a polygraph if asked...

 

[Amir0x]

I agree with Kewk that it's one of the best looking launch games. I don't agree that it's necessarily "next-gen" enough. It's a launch game, and in a few years the quality of the visuals are very much going to reflect that. But it IS among the best of the launch. If PGR3 and Oblivion both make it for launch, though, it won't be the best.

 

[Kewk]

and every parent believes their baby is the most beautiful one in the world, and to most of them it's true, they could pass a polygraph if asked...

I really wish they would remove this tag from my name. It is pointless and diminishes any valid opinion I may or may not have :\

 

[MightyHedgehog]

I don't agree that it's necessarily "next-gen" enough.

What exactly needs to happen to make it next-gen enough?

 

[Mrbob]

I really wish they would remove this tag from my name. It is pointless and diminishes any valid opinion I may or may not have :\

I think a lot of potential X360 buyers are gettin anxious because we are only two months from launch and we've seen practically squat for Xbox 360 games. Even Call of Duty 2 for example. We have only seen small snippets. It is getting to the point of ridiculous. X05 can't come soon enough.

 

[Amir0x]

What exactly needs to happen to make it next-gen enough?

Don't ask such a stupid question, because it's going to get a stupid response. It's next-gen enough when I'm suitably impressed, which I'm not. I hate the stupid plastic models, there's still lackluster textures, and there's still plenty of things that make me say 'meh' and prevent me from suspending my disbelief. Plenty.

And this is a launch game. I will personally guarantee you that by the end of 360, PS3s and even Rev's life you're going to see games that pretty much rape this game from all angles, and you'll understand just what I meant by "next-gen enough."

 

[Mrbob]

On the positive side, X360 gamers have to be happy they are getting the real Call of Duty series on their console instead of the Big Red One abomination. You know the game will be great with Infinity Ward heading development.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Don't ask such a stupid question, because it's going to get a stupid response. It's next-gen enough when I'm suitably impressed, which I'm not. I hate the stupid plastic models, there's still lackluster textures, and there's still plenty of things that make me say 'meh' and prevent me from suspending my disbelief. Plenty.

And this is a launch game. I will personally guarantee you that by the end of 360, PS3s and even Rev's life you're going to see games that pretty much rape this game from all angles, and you'll understand just what I meant by "next-gen enough."

:lol

Good answer, but you didn't have to be so grouchy since you did answer the question right afterward. And, sure, there's no doubt that the top-tier mid-to-end of gen stuff will make launch period stuff look like lego-blocks, by comparison.

 

[Blimblim]

Klee back me up here eh? Obviously my "status" somehow cancles any opinion I have on any title we make let alone a title I work on. You can tell me all day and all night that COD2 is not the best looking launch title out there but I would love to see live gameplay footage that proves it.

I don't know about launch titles, but for me COD2, while very nice looking, seems like a current generation title with a very nice coat of paint on it. A bit like the Source Engine in fact. We get some good textures, some nice shader effects, some awesome looking smoke, but the engine itself still seems to be based on what Carmack created with the first Quake engine. As long as the engine will still use shadow and light maps it will always be stuck in between 2 generations for me.
But it could still be the prettiest launch title, we'll know at X05 I guess.

 

[Kewk]

On the positive side, X360 gamers have to be happy they are getting the real Call of Duty series on their console instead of the Big Red One abomination. You know the game will be great with Infinity Ward heading development.

If by abomination you mean a game on inferior hardware then yeah sure... but the game itself is incredible and extremely fun to play. Think CoD1: UO on console and that is basically what you have and anyone who has played UO would never call it an Abomination.

 

[Amir0x]

:lol

Good answer, but you didn't have to be so grouchy since you did answer the question right afterward. And, sure, there's no doubt that the top-tier mid-to-end of gen stuff will make launch period stuff look like lego-blocks, by comparison.

I apologize, I sensed a vaguely accusatory tone in your post and went on the defensive. You understand, it's GAF.

Believe me, I know my standards are a bit higher than some people. I just think it's silly to question how people feel about where their standards lie. If these people aren't easily satisified (myself included), it's their problem when next-gen comes Harder to please can be a very bad thing, for sure.

 

[Kewk]

I don't know about launch titles, but for me COD2, while very nice looking, seems like a current generation title with a very nice coat of paint on it. A bit like the Source Engine in fact. We get some good textures, some nice shader effects, some awesome looking smoke, but the engine itself still seems to be based on what Carmack created with the first Quake engine. As long as the engine will still use shadow and light maps it will always be stuck in between 2 generations for me.
But it could still be the prettiest launch title, we'll know at X05 I guess.

See the problem is, is that everyone seems to be comparing everything to PC. You think that Next Gen is somehow going to be leaps and bounds over what PC tech is capable of when it really is not. The comparison for next gen should not be that of PC but that of current gen consoles.

Anything you see on next gen hardware can be done on PC with a high price. Just think about that when you ask yourself what next gen is.

I'm going to sleep now.. daughters first day back to school at 7:00am /sigh.

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

And this is a launch game. I will personally guarantee you that by the end of 360, PS3s and even Rev's life you're going to see games that pretty much rape this game from all angles, and you'll understand just what I meant by "next-gen enough."

*nods*

1st gen is probably going to be pretty underwhelming all around due to some relatively radical hardware designs on both sides. But once the growing pains get worked out and devs really start reigning in these processors, I have a feeling the visual ramp up is going to be pretty ridiculous for this generation of consoles. Comparing the best 2nd and 3rd gen games to the launch titles is going to be amusing..

 

[Blimblim]

See the problem is, is that everyone seems to be comparing everything to PC. You think that Next Gen is somehow going to be leaps and bounds over what PC tech is capable of when it really is not. The comparison for next gen should not be that of PC but that of current gen consoles.

Anything you see on next gen hardware can be done on PC with a high price. Just think about that when you ask yourself what next gen is.

I'm going to sleep now.. daughters first day back to school at 7:00am /sigh.

Well, then maybe the COD2 engine is limitated by the fact that it also has to run well on non high end PCs.
An engine designed to run only on very high-end PC/next gen consoles should certainly be able to do a lot more stuff.

 

[Kleegamefan]

Looking at specs and making blanket statements is the wrong thing to do. This is a complex issue and small details have a great influence on your final performance. Basically, most of the publicly announced specs by all hardware makers don't tell you anything about how the final system will behave in the hands of developers. You should keep this in mind when discussing hardware and the software that will be running on it.

I don't know how Microsoft has exposed their APIs to developers (is the finest level of granularity an abstracted thread? can you assign a thread to a core specifically? can you use a core in a "raw" mode?) but keeping the cores busy doing *something* productive seems to be the most relevant thing here. This is the one thing we can take from the announced X360 CPU specs.

A core capable of supporting multiple hardwre threads is just that -- a core capable of supporting multiple hardwre threads. A number of issues influence maximum theoretical performance. Running multiple threads on a core supporting multiple hw threads does not guarantee maximum performance. For instance having a single core supporting two hw threads will perform differently depending on what code is running on it; a single threaded app is completely capable of outperforming an app written using 2+ threads. You yourself can observe this behavior if you have an Intel HT processor.

That is all fine and dandy, but it doesn't change my statement of XeCPU being a triple core part with 2 threads per core.....six available hardware threads.....dunno what about *that* is a "blanket statement".....its a fact..

Unless you know otherwise....

 

[quetz67]

What happened to XNA, werent xbox 360 games not meant to be easily ported to PC? Or will the future PC ports not only rely on a gamepad for control but stream their data from the disc too.

 

[Hurricane_Chris]

That is all fine and dandy, but it doesn't change my statement of XeCPU being a triple core part with 2 threads per core.....six available hardware threads.....dunno what about *that* is a "blanket statement".....its a fact..

Unless you know otherwise....

Mostly I was replying to "lips" who seemed to be implying that utilization of both hardware threads in a core was the only way to get peak performance and that Microsoft was somewhat contradicting themselves. Your reply just listed specifications, which in this case is worthless because it gives him information he already had -- each core has two hardware threads.

You seem to post of links about hardware and technical papers often so you obviously try to keep up with what's going on. Instead of just reading back the paper to the person with a question or wrong interpretation about/of something, perhaps you should try to elaborate in a way that he understands.

 

[Musashi Wins!]

This is all interesting either way but....is this sheet even real? It doesn't read like it.

 

[HokieJoe]

I'll take your word for it. I'm watching the OXM video again right now and there is no way the models look as detailed as the one on the right. It must be a compression issue then like you mentioned.

If the final version looks closer to the screenshot you posted then I'll be impressed. But I'll be a little cautious until I see the final version. If the X360 version looks like that I may bypass the PC upgrade and get a 360 instead.

Notwithstanding the interlacing artifacts, to my eyes, the North African camcorder footage of Call of Duty 2 looked very nice, and certainly nextgen console-wise. But I agree, things will obviously get better as developers become more knowledgeable about the hardware.

 

[Synth_floyd]

It's interesting stuff but the "revelations" like "Don't assume they have a hard drive" and all the mundane stuff like "make large fonts and avoid long lists in menus" aren't really that notable.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Looking at specs and making blanket statements is the wrong thing to do. This is a complex issue and small details have a great influence on your final performance. Basically, most of the publicly announced specs by all hardware makers don't tell you anything about how the final system will behave in the hands of developers. You should keep this in mind when discussing hardware and the software that will be running on it.

I don't know how Microsoft has exposed their APIs to developers (is the finest level of granularity an abstracted thread? can you assign a thread to a core specifically? can you use a core in a "raw" mode?) but keeping the cores busy doing *something* productive seems to be the most relevant thing here. This is the one thing we can take from the announced X360 CPU specs.

A core capable of supporting multiple hardwre threads is just that -- a core capable of supporting multiple hardwre threads. A number of issues influence maximum theoretical performance. Running multiple threads on a core supporting multiple hw threads does not guarantee maximum performance. For instance having a single core supporting two hw threads will perform differently depending on what code is running on it; a single threaded app is completely capable of outperforming an app written using 2+ threads. You yourself can observe this behavior if you have an Intel HT processor.

Even if all is abstracted and their OS scheduler does all the work a game with >3 threads in flight (that pay attention to cache usage and can work well together) should be something to aim towards. Why ? Well, because it is the whole point of SMT: if one thread is not using the core's full execution units array or if it stalls then another thread can chime in and keep higher the IPC count.

If you only have 3 threads in your code at any one time... well, I do not see the OS scheduler assigning the same thread to more than one core, unless you were talking about some for of speculative execution in which each thread goes in a different direction of a two way conditional branch... it could be possible.

 

[VictimOfGrief]

The interesting thing about this is it's really a laundry list of "Do's and Dont's" of the X360 which I wonder if developers find a way to exploit the power of the X360, if MS will revise this list.

 

[Dr_Cogent]

Current Gen

Next Gen and I quote... "bitches"

If this is not next gen enough for you... man there really is no hope.

Uh, that's not next-gen enough for me. Sorry. Looks like a PC game. LAME.

 

[dorio]

What's with that stupid owl?

 

[Kabuki Waq]

Uh, that's not next-gen enough for me. Sorry. Looks like a PC game. LAME.

The Character models look decent enough but the background looks pathetic. Could pass for a brothers in arms shot almost.

 

[VictimOfGrief]

What's with that stupid owl?

O U DIDNT KNO?

 

[brandonnn]

A game should have playable modes even if the detachable drive is removed.

 

[Hurricane_Chris]

Even if all is abstracted and their OS scheduler does all the work a game with >3 threads in flight (that pay attention to cache usage and can work well together) should be something to aim towards. Why ? Well, because it is the whole point of SMT: if one thread is not using the core's full execution units array or if it stalls then another thread can chime in and keep higher the IPC count.

If you only have 3 threads in your code at any one time... well, I do not see the OS scheduler assigning the same thread to more than one core, unless you were talking about some for of speculative execution in which each thread goes in a different direction of a two way conditional branch... it could be possible.

You seemed to have missed the point I was making. Go read lip's initial post. Then read my reply to his post. I'm finished trying to add anything constructive to threads like this...
/me puts his fanboy cap on and readies the wallguy and owl pictures!

 

[bishoptl]

Remember, this is targeted towards dumbass PC devs

Hey! I'm standing...like, right here!

 

[Mama Smurf]

I fail to see what's so wrong about expecting a next gen console, at launch, to have games that look quite a bit better than current PC games.

 

[BojTrek]

So... what is the basic point in the .DOC?

Is X-Box 360 going to suck? Should I hold off on X-Box 360 and get PS3? Basically, it will be oppposite of what I did this generation... I held off on the PS2 and bought X-Box and have loved it...

 

[Panajev2001a]

ddk ?

What is your problem ? I was responding to you and you alone. If what I said was not good in your discussion with you and the other guy... well I could not care less.

anything constructive to threads like this

That makes me feel much better about what I wrote to you... lol.

Of course no blanket statement can be made about any application with "tons" threads will beat all the time any application using "tons - 1" threads. My point was not that.

Some application, some tasks can benefit of SMT/HT just as your example of the Pentium 4 showed as much as some other may even be slowed down by SMT/HT. Were all the applications that showed a negative difference well optimized/designed towards a multi-threaded processor like the Pentium 4 HT ?

If you feel that is the case with the XeCPU, fine: if you can architect three main threads which manage most of the time to keep execution units full and stay most of the time away from stalling not needing extra threads best to you. I do not see how my post had nothing we could at least talk about.

But as you said, worthless here apparently.

 

[Hurricane_Chris]

ddk ?

What is your problem ? I was responding to you and you alone. If what I said was not good in your discussion with you and the other guy... well I could not care less.



That makes me feel much better about what I wrote to you... lol.

Of course no blanket statement can be made about any application with "tons" threads will beat all the time any application using "tons - 1" threads. My point was not that.

Some application, some tasks can benefit of SMT/HT just as your example of the Pentium 4 showed as much as some other may even be slowed down by SMT/HT. Were all the applications that showed a negative difference well optimized/designed towards a multi-threaded processor like the Pentium 4 HT ?

If you feel that is the case with the XeCPU, fine: if you can architect three main threads which manage most of the time to keep execution units full and stay most of the time away from stalling not needing extra threads best to you. I do not see how my post had nothing we could at least talk about.

But as you said, worthless here apparently.

At this very moment I'm very cranky since I just got back from my vacation today and am working until 3am. Lately there's so many threads where people don't read the whole thread and don't discuss the subject matter at hand in a civil way. As you can tell I'm a bit turned off by this. If you ant to talk to me directly about something in a thread please hit me up with a PM or catch me on MSN messenger. I'll be happy to talk to you privately. Replying in the middle of a thread with no context makes it very easy to get wires crossed. I couldn't understand what you were trying to do with your reply.

 

[Fafalada]

As long as the engine will still use shadow and light maps it will always be stuck in between 2 generations for me.

Well in that case UE3 will always be stuck between generations for you as well. Yes, that means GoW too.

While things are slowly moving away from it - static shadow/light maps aren't going to just dissappear, no matter what you were led to believe (it's not like D3 was completely dynamic either).

 

[Panajev2001a]

At this very moment I'm very cranky since I just got back from my vacation today and am working until 3am. Lately there's so many threads where people don't read the whole thread and don't discuss the subject matter at hand in a civil way. As you can tell I'm a bit turned off by this. If you ant to talk to me directly about something in a thread please hit me up with a PM or catch me on MSN messenger. I'll be happy to talk to you privately. Replying in the middle of a thread with no context makes it very easy to get wires crossed. I couldn't understand what you were trying to do with your reply.

I understand, I replied to your PM .

 

[wobedraggled]

Hahahha, I loved the "your system card is missing" screens, and that one was the best one of them all.

 

[Dr_Cogent]

See the problem is, is that everyone seems to be comparing everything to PC. You think that Next Gen is somehow going to be leaps and bounds over what PC tech is capable of when it really is not.

???

You're serious about this?

From all the tech articles I have read, what is going into the Xbox 360 and PS3 is leaps and bounds better than the current state of PC technology. Next-gen damn well better be leaps and bounds better than current PC technology. PC tech will catch up, but I am disturbed that you think that it shouldn't be leaps and bounds better than current PC tech.

 

[Mrbob]

Well in that case UE3 will always be stuck between generations for you as well. Yes, that means GoW too.

While things are slowly moving away from it - static shadow/light maps aren't going to just dissappear, no matter what you were led to believe (it's not like D3 was completely dynamic either).

Yeah, but the big difference is the light maps in the Call of Duty 2 vids I've watched look like they are ripped out of 1998. Light and shadows is one area I expected to be wowed next gen. CoD2 lighting, yuck. Yes I know the game will be fun and it isn't all about graphics but this thread is and I was shocked how bad the lighting looked in the video. There is a night and day difference between the lighting in Call of Duty 2 and Doom 3. I personally think the graphical spelndor of Call of Duty 2 is being held back because there is also a Pc version.

 

[Kleegamefan]

Yes Call of Doodie Too may not have the greatest graphics ever (in screen shots) but there is something about this game that really grabs me....

The movies I have seen of this game looks AWESOME (best smoke evar1!) and it *seems* to be doing an amazing job at portraying a war-like atmostphere.......yeah, it looks similar to your generic PC games in screen shots but I am so looking forward to the experience of Call of Doodie Too...

Along with PD0, PGR3, GRAW and RR6, this game is on my must buy list.....in fact, I have already pre-ordered it

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

Yes Call of Doodie Too may not have the greatest graphics ever (in screen shots) but there is something about this game that really grabs me....

The movies I have seen of this game looks AWESOME (best smoke evar1!) and it *seems* to be doing an amazing job at portraying a war-like atmostphere.......yeah, it looks similar to your generic PC games in screen shots but I am so looking forward to the experience of Call of Doodie Too...

With good reason, Call of Duty and the UO expansion is one of the most atmospheric shooters ever, and I think it has by far the best scripting the genre has ever seen (including HL2). They do such a tremendous job of surrounding you with the veneer of a giant warzone that you're smack in the middle of. As someone who played the hell out of the original the only underwhelming thing Ive seen from the videos of CoD 2 is it just looks like good ol' Duty with the volume turned up 5 notches. Not necessarily a bad thing as CoD is awesome to begin with, but Im still hoping for a little less linear experience in the sequel. We'll see, I dont mind "War on Rails" as much when its in the capable hands of Infinity Ward. Console only gamers who got stuck with the mediocre ports are in for a rare treat though, the CoD experience is an amazing ride.

 

[Kleegamefan]

Yeah, I played parts of Call of Doodie on PC and loved it...

So I then bought the Xbox version (Developed not by Infinity Ward, but by Spark Unlimited)


BIG mistake....

 

[Kleegamefan]

???

You're serious about this?

From all the tech articles I have read, what is going into the Xbox 360 and PS3 is leaps and bounds better than the current state of PC technology. Next-gen damn well better be leaps and bounds better than current PC technology. PC tech will catch up, but I am disturbed that you think that it shouldn't be leaps and bounds better than current PC tech.

The Doctor is most certainly in

Yes, some of the *better* real-time Next Gen stuff (FF7 Demo, PGR3, Fight Night) look quite a bit better than any of the PC games on the market, thats for sure....

Some of the upcoming PC games (UT 2007, especially) look outstanding,but that PCI-E bus will keep certain things in check for some time, methinks....