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[Deleted member 231381]

You get to live and breathe, you get to taste the food you eat, see your family, maybe read a book, get some exercise, which is more than the dead gets to do which is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, not really fair at all, death sentence all the way.

But killing the person who killed someone else doesn't bring that person back to life. It's not like it restores the situation, or even does anything really useful. It just... kills someone. Why is that necessary?

 

[Acinixys]

What does killing people under the guise of "justice" ever accomplish? Nothing. It doesn't deter further murders or anything.

Thats because for all its strutting and threats America does it the pussy way

The real way to handle is if someone is given a guilty verdict for murder or rape, they are taken outside and shot ASAP

None of this "Sit in jail for 20 years and then maybe we will inject you for a loverly peaceful death"

Grab the ARs and hose them down outside the courtroom I say.

There will be way less crime if the punishment is instant death

Spoiler

PS: Clearly im making a joke, so please dont get all preachy and ragey

 

[ProfessorMoran]

What do you think should happen when an innocent person gets executed? Who should get executed there? The prosecutor?

What do you think happens when the killer gets 30 years and when he gets out, kills another person? Another family? What if he kills a guard while he's in prison? Who's responsible then? Why is his life more valuable than any of his victims? Why does he get to live while others do not?

And then there's the appeal process, it's not like the guilty just gets taken out the back and shot, it takes a long time between a conviction and the actual execution, you get to exhaust every chance to appeal before you get taken off this planet.

 

[SocksAndShoes]

You get to live and breathe, you get to taste the food you eat, see your family once in a blue moon if they aren't too disgusted to see you, maybe read a book, get some exercise once a day, which is more than the dead gets to do which is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, not really fair at all, death sentence all the way. It's good they executed Clayton, one more killer off the planet.

There's literally no logic here. Simple primal bloodlust like this is the only reason we still have capital punishment. It's sad really.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

But killing the person who killed someone else doesn't bring that person back to life. It's not like it restores the situation, or even does anything really useful. It just... kills someone. Why is that necessary?

I'm not looking to "restore the situation", I'm looking to punish the guilty by giving the guilty the same treatment he gave to his victim but in a quicker and more humane way, not to rehabilitate a killer. It's about the removal of a murderer.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

There's literally no logic here. Simple primal bloodlust like this is the only reason we still have capital punishment. It's sad really.

It's simple logic, imprisonment does not equal death. Rehabilitation does not equal death, being able to get out after x number of years and being able to kill again does not equal death. Death equals death. You kill someone in cold blood, you'll get to die, end of story. You want to give the killer therapy, that's your prerogative, I'm more interested in justice. I'm all for making sure we convict the right guy, but I'm not for being squeamish and making every excuse not to give out the just punishment for someone who murders another human being.

 

[TS-08]

The punishment should fit the crime.

But, on the "death penalty has no deterrent", I would disagree. Say I'm committing a crime and by leaving a witness alive I run the risk of being quickly apprehended, but, on the other hand, killing the witness would also guarantee a death sentence, I would certainly think twice (hopefully, the moral aspect of taking a life would also dissuade some).

Aside from the issue of the actual likelihood that a criminal would think in those terms in the moment, do you think the murderer would not be persuaded to spare the victim if he was only looking at the possibility of life in prison, or a sentence that is effectively for life?

 

[Fenderputty]

It's simple logic, imprisonment does not equal death. Rehabilitation does not equal death, being able to get out after x number of years and being able to kill again does not equal death. Death equals death. You kill someone in cold blood, you'll get to die, end of story. You want to give the killer therapy, that's your prerogative, I'm more interested in justice. I'm all for making sure we convict the right guy, but I'm not for being squeamish and making every excuse not to give out the just punishment for someone who murders another human being.

You're squeamish if you don't lust for revenge. Gotcha.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Awful. What does it say about Missouri when it treats people like this, prisoner or not

 

[fawaz]

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/missouri-executes-cecil-clayton-missing-part-brain-n325081



No one can say he didn't deserve punishment for his crime but what does killing him accomplish? Who was he a danger to in prison? Are they serious that late in life mental disability don't legally make you mentally incompetent? Since children understand what being killed by the state entails and its justification does that mean according to Missouri's argument we should execute them?

When are we going to end this horrible outdated practice? Its a continued stain on our country.

Statement from his lawyer

So a mentally retarded man that can't even use the phone and has piece of his brain missing couldn't get the insanity plea.

Was his lawyer a stapler?

 

[GaimeGuy]

As per my earlier post, If you read up on the case, it appears his brain injury had not reduced his mental faculties to that point.

Do you know what the purpose of the frontal lobe portion of the brain is?

 

[Pilgrimzero]

I'm not looking to "restore the situation", I'm looking to punish the guilty by giving the guilty the same treatment he gave to his victim but in a quicker and more humane way, not to rehabilitate a killer. It's about the removal of a murderer.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. - Gandhi

 

[SocksAndShoes]

It's simple logic, imprisonment does not equal death. Rehabilitation does not equal death, being able to get out after x number of years and being able to kill again does not equal death. Death equals death. You kill someone in cold blood, you'll get to die, end of story. You want to give the killer therapy, that's your prerogative, I'm more interested in justice. I'm all for making sure we convict the right guy, but I'm not for being squeamish and making every excuse not to give out the just punishment for someone who murders another human being.

I love how proponents of capital punishment keep coming back to "JUSTICE".

Please explain how a dead person gets justice by the state murdering their killer. And if It's not justice for them, It's justice for....who exactly? Their families who are still missing a loved one?

This logic doesn't make any sense and people who support capital punishment have no other argument than platitudes and a vague notion of "justice" that they can't support.

Lowering the overall world population by 1 accomplishes literally nothing. Oh, and it costs more than life imprisonment. Sounds like a lose-lose to me.

EDIT: I'm going to leave the thread with Neil Degrasse Tyon's thoughts on the death penalty: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x228lfb_degrasse-death-penalty_news

 

[TS-08]

It's simple logic, imprisonment does not equal death. Rehabilitation does not equal death, being able to get out after x number of years and being able to kill again does not equal death. Death equals death. You kill someone in cold blood, you'll get to die, end of story. You want to give the killer therapy, that's your prerogative, I'm more interested in justice. I'm all for making sure we convict the right guy, but I'm not for being squeamish and making every excuse not to give out the just punishment for someone who murders another human being.

Does your "death equals death" philosophy apply to all crimes, or just murder. If just murder, why?

 

[Random Painted HIghway]

So a mentally retarded man that can't even use the phone and has piece of his brain missing couldn't get the insanity plea.

Was his lawyer a stapler?

He argument is that he was incompetent for execution, which is a separate argument from his competency at the time of trial.

 

[BossLackey]

Not too proud to be a Missourian right now.

 

[OldAsUrSock]

I wonder how many of those conservatives/Republicans that are for the death penalty are also against abortions

The conservative viewpoint is that if you purposefully take a life away then you deserve your life to be taken. So since in the conservative viewpoint you are a human at or not long after conception, it should be illegal to take the life away just like grown human.

 

[Xe4]

It's simple logic, imprisonment does not equal death. Rehabilitation does not equal death, being able to get out after x number of years and being able to kill again does not equal death. Death equals death. You kill someone in cold blood, you'll get to die, end of story. You want to give the killer therapy, that's your prerogative, I'm more interested in justice. I'm all for making sure we convict the right guy, but I'm not for being squeamish and making every excuse not to give out the just punishment for someone who murders another human being.

In a perfect justice system, you may have an argument, but our justice system is far from perfect. A large number of innocent people have been executed, and even more have been held on death row until being released when the court realized they were innocent. The death penalty has also been shown to be institutionally racist.

You are far more likely to be executed if your victim is white than if your victim is a minority. Furthermore you are far more likely to be executed if you are black and committed the crime than if you were white and did. Whites commie over 70% of the homicides in America, yet the population on death row is over 50% black. The cherry on top of this shit sundae is that racial profiling in death penalty cases is allowed, by McClesky vs. Kemp.

Even ignoring all of that, the US justice system was never built upon punishment or retaliation. Prisons are called "Department of Corrections" for a reason; to rehabilitate those they can, and keep everyone else away from society. Just because you feel like something should be a certain way, does not mean it is, or should be.

 

[Daniel B·]

Why? That's just an assertion. You've not given any reason for it. I can counter-asset that "an eye for an eye would leave the whole world blind". Great, we've both proved we can recite vague platitudes, but the argument hasn't progressed.

I don't know, I thought my "The punishment should fit the crime" was a perfectly succinct response to your post and even allows for someone with diminished mental capacity (where applicable and probably not in this specific case, might significantly alter the punishment). Of course victims shouldn't directly determine the punishment for a crime, that should be left up to society as a whole.

Doesn't work like that. It is relatively rare for people to sit down and think through the rational consequences of their crimes like that. Most crimes, particularly death row ones like murder, are the products of say, heated in-the-moment disputes that spill out of hand, or people who've more or less discounted their futures anyway, or people who don't have the mental capacity to weigh these things up. Changing the sentence from 21 years to execution doesn't have any impact on anyone who falls into those categories - if you're mentally disabled, you don't have the capacity to make that kind of rationalization. Empirically, this is a fairly-well proven point; basically every meta-study I know agrees that the death penalty has no significant effect on crime rates.

It doesn't require one to "sit down and think through" it, as just about everyone knows, before commiting a crime, that say murdering someone will automatically warrant the death penalty (in certain states), so for a sane person, not high on drugs or experiencing serious withdrawal symptoms, who hasn't previously committed a serious offence, if they absolutely don't have to kill someone, why wouldn't some consciously choose not to, to avoid the automatic death penalty? To say it has a negligible deterrent effect, goes against human nature of risk versus reward, with keeping ones life, being the rather large reward.

 

[Coconut]

Part of me feels bad but another part of me thinks well what role in society could this guy ever fulfill and could someone like this ever be rehabilitated so why not execute him?

 

[xbhaskarx]

medical exams have found Clayton understood why he was being executed

Okay then.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Okay then.

Isn't it his frontal lobe that's removed? The part that's responsible for impulse control and planning for the future? I think that's a bit different from self-reflection.

 

[entremet]

I hate this country.

Notallstates

My state doesn't have the DP.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Sounds more like a mercy killing rather than capital punishment.

 

[Corronchilejano]

Sounds more like a mercy killing rather than capital punishment.

How?

 

[SuperLuigi]

How?

"Mr. Clayton, even in prison, cannot without assistance order canteen items or navigate the telephone system."

Severe mental illness, dementia, multiple brain injuries.

Not all life is worth living. Sad but true.

 

[SocksAndShoes]

Severe mental illness, dementia, multiple brain injuries.

Not all life is worth living. Sad but true.

And who better to decide that than an executioner, right?

WOW.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Sounds more like a mercy killing rather than capital punishment.

should we execute other mentally disabled people who can't do those tasks?

 

[SuperLuigi]

And who better to decide that than an executioner, right?

WOW.

Do you want him to suffer? Ever had anyone close to you live through severe mental illness for years and years? That shit is worse than death.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Do you want him to suffer? Ever had anyone close to you live through severe mental illness for years and years? That shit is worse than death.

he was actively fighting his execution, it seems he didn't want to die.

 

[SuperLuigi]

should we execute other mentally disabled people who can't do those tasks?

Maybe, depends on the case obviously. Not that clear cut as people like to think. I think prolonging miserable people's lives is sadistic to say the least. Especially if the motivation is some kind of personal belief in the "sanctity of life", which is just something people do to hold up their own well-being and world view, rather than out of consideration for other people's suffering.

 

[SocksAndShoes]

Do you want him to suffer? Ever had anyone close to you live through severe mental illness for years and years? That shit is worse than death.

Doesn't matter. My point is it isn't for any of us to decide, and that includes the state.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Maybe, depends on the case obviously. Not that clear cut as people like to think. I think prolonging miserable people's lives is sadistic to say the least. Especially if the motivation is some kind of personal belief in the "sanctity of life", which is just something people do to hold up their own well-being and world view, rather than out of consideration for other people's suffering.

yikes, I didn't think you would agree with a modest proposal style sarcastic proposal

 

[SuperLuigi]

Doesn't matter. My point is it isn't for any of us to decide, and that includes the state.

If it lessens suffering, why not do it?

 

[zeemumu]

Death penalty is wrong. Just wrong. There's no punishment in it, just turning the lights out. When/why did a life sentence of hard (and I mean hard fuckin') labor for violent criminals and child molesters go out of style?

I'm pretty sure it's considered more humane to lethally inject someone than it is to throw them in a work camp for the rest of their lives. Idk.

 

[SuperLuigi]

yikes, I didn't think you would agree with a modest proposal style sarcastic proposal

Well, I think for most people even admitting the possibility that life can be miserable enough for death to be preferable is too much to accept psychologically.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Well, I think for most people even admitting the possibility that life can be miserable enough for death to be preferable is too much to accept psychologically.

I don't understand what your claiming. Most people opposed to the death penalty probably favor euthanasia legalization.

What they don't want is people making decisions for others on what is worth living. Again, this man was fighting to stop the state from killing him. I think its far to say that he judged life worth living.

 

[Kettch]

If it lessens suffering, why not do it?

I missed the part of the article where it says the guy wanted to die. Can you point it out to me?

 

[KDR_11k]

Death penalty means that you have 100% faith in the justice system to never pronounce an innocent person guilty. I sure as hell don't have that faith.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

Well, I think for most people even admitting the possibility that life can be miserable enough for death to be preferable is too much to accept psychologically.

Unless he's getting the shit kicked out him on an hourly basis 24-7, I don't believe it's equivalent to death.

 

[SuperLuigi]

I don't understand what your claiming. Most people opposed to the death penalty probably favor euthanasia legalization.

What they don't want is people making decisions for others on what is worth living. Again, this man was fighting to stop the state from killing him. I think its far to say that he judged life worth living.

I think it is kind of lame and chickening out to claim that nobody can make that decision for anyone. In theory of course, but we live in a hopelessly practical world. Most people just haven't witnessed severe mental illness personally. It is not a pleasant existence.

The man was mentally retarded, his every day life might be a confusing hell for all we know with dementia, psychosis and so forth. Not that that was motivation for his execution here, but anyway.. just making a wider point that death is not all that bad. People are very neurotic about death, somewhat understandably of course, but I wish the conversation about dying was more rational and not just "life is sacred nobody can decide for someone else case closed."

 

[Chariot]

Severe mental illness, dementia, multiple brain injuries.

Not all life is worth living. Sad but true.

Yay, a euthanasia defense force!

Thinking about it, some people might be pro-euthanasia. How is the political playground in the US on that topic?

 

[SuperLuigi]

I missed the part of the article where it says the guy wanted to die. Can you point it out to me?

I did not claim that he wanted to die. I'm just saying that I personally think he is probably better off dead, even if he himself didn't think so. Harsh I know, but deal with it.

 

[Kettch]

I did not claim that he wanted to die. I'm just saying that I personally think he is probably better off dead, even if he himself didn't think so. Harsh I know, but deal with it.

I'm definitely not going to deal with it. If your opinion ever became a policy of this country I would no longer live here in order to safeguard my life. Killing people against their will because they are suffering is horrifying.

 

[SuperLuigi]

I'm definitely not going to deal with it. If your opinion ever became a policy of this country I would no longer live here in order to safeguard my life. Killing people against their will because they are suffering is horrifying.

Suffering is horrifying.

 

[Kettch]

Suffering is horrifying.

And I'm all for a well regulated system of assisted suicide, so that you can stop suffering at any time you want. Leave me and anyone else who doesn't want to out of it.

 

[Chariot]

Suffering is horrifying.

Would you kill for example somebody who isn't able to move anymore, whose only means of communication is by blinking, because he can't live a normal life without asking for his consent?

 

[Freezasaurus]

Death penalty means that you have 100% faith in the justice system to never pronounce an innocent person guilty. I sure as hell don't have that faith.

Any system you institute is going to have faults. Absolutely. But that doesn't mean prisons are full of innocent people. Some, sure. But the majority? I doubt it.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Would you kill for example somebody who isn't able to move anymore, whose only means of communication is by blinking, because he can't live a normal life without asking for his consent?

That is easy, if he can communicate and is in a normal mental condition. It is up to him.

It gets difficult when mental illness comes into the picture.. mental illness by definition messes with a persons ability to think and make rational decisions. Some psychiatrists say that people with severe schizophrenia are some of the most miserable people on this planet, because they are hard to treat, because they don't think there is anything wrong with them despite a lifetime of hospitalization, and their life can be hell, like hearing the voice of Satan telling them to kill themselves or somebody else every night or something like that.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

Death penalty means that you have 100% faith in the justice system to never pronounce an innocent person guilty. I sure as hell don't have that faith.

Faith? More like insane delusion.