Relaxed Muscle
Member
Considering videogame scores, it is in this case. Mixed and negatives reviews clearly outweighs in number.
Miyamoto's Failure - Bosman at Home
- Thread starter nynt9
- Start date
Considering videogame scores, it is in this case. Mixed and negatives reviews clearly outweighs in number.
Alex_Mexico
Member
Great episode. Even before SFZ I had the feeling Miyamoto was loosing his touch. It pisses me that the only reason we only got a new SF game was because he wanted to justify a gimmick. He didn't set out to make the best SF game thy could. He did it because he wanted to innovate for innovation's sale.
Also Bosman killed it in the last 3 minutes. Miyamoto never came across as a big progressive game developer and that segment shows. I've gotta ask: what was Miyamoto's involvement with Splatoon (if there was even any)?
Also Bosman killed it in the last 3 minutes. Miyamoto never came across as a big progressive game developer and that segment shows. I've gotta ask: what was Miyamoto's involvement with Splatoon (if there was even any)?
Pro from Dover
Member
He right about Fox not replying to Katt at all.
We should have been able to hold X to pay respects.
We should have been able to hold X to pay respects.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Not in my case, more than half hour without the stand would give me hand cramps.
earlier in the thread
Rabid Dwarf 76
Member
Link?
MegamanPoweredUP
Member
TLDR
You can say all you want about Myiamoto but today he's still a guardian of game's artistic integrity.
I'm happy even if he fails: that means he's alive and well. Nobody is perfect. Failure is part of life. If he doesn't fail that means he's not working.
I feel gaming needs Myiamoto even more. There's an high chance that videogames are going to be brainless online games or movies with little to no interaction. Loose Nintendo and your going to loose gaming.
You can say all you want about Myiamoto but today he's still a guardian of game's artistic integrity.
I'm happy even if he fails: that means he's alive and well. Nobody is perfect. Failure is part of life. If he doesn't fail that means he's not working.
I feel gaming needs Myiamoto even more. There's an high chance that videogames are going to be brainless online games or movies with little to no interaction. Loose Nintendo and your going to loose gaming.
The creation of Inkling?
Can't tell if this is a troll post because of the double "loose" and "brainless online games" and double "myiamoto"
Relaxed Muscle
Member
If suggest you to look outside of the AAA bubble and look at the offerings of the whole scope of gaming.
Nintendo's legacy is out there, their footprints everywhere. If Nintendo dissapears their influence on developers will not die.
Truly Nintendo is the light in the darkness holding back the corrupting forces of cinematic games such as Minecraft, Dark Souls, and Overwatch. If we lost Nintendo, we'd all be stuck playing brainless uninteractive nonsense like Rocket League.
...
God, how do people actually swallow that bullshit?
Alex_Mexico
Member
You just contradicted your previous statement. Zelda, in terms of storytelling, does okay in storytelling because it risks nothing and has been stuck in 1998 since OoT. Same tropes, same formula, no voice acting, still dependent of awkward text boxes. And it's gotten old. I hope Zelda U does push the envelope. We don't need another skyward sword.
The one time Nintendo tried to flesh out story and be cinematic Metroid Other M happened.
I hope they keep trying to push the envelope with story in their games but so far they've struggled to say the least.
Alex_Mexico
Member
Is that an answer to my question? Why did you formulate it as a question? I was asking honestly. What was Miyamoto's involvement with Splatoon, if any?
orthodoxy1095
Banned
God help me.
I'm hoping the post is a troll. But some people really do swallow that nonsense.
mrmickfran
Member
But I liked SF Zero 
Not to run in on the pile-on, but I'm pretty sure this post is genuine, lol.
Milly Osworth
Member
Creativity needs failures. But Im not sure if Miyamoto still has it in him.
Would you argue that one extremely unconventional level editor justifies the Wii U gamepad for all video games, in spite of all the costs and drawbacks everywhere else?
If you want to find games that really utilize the gamepad in a meaningful way, you have to look at things that veer into minigame territory like Nintendoland or Wonderful101's contrived dual screen segments. The pad was not really suited to anything beyond short lived novelties. In conventional single player games, it struggled to do anything useful, and attempts to force it to become useful were sometimes poorly received (Starfox). Mario used it for off-TV mirroring (twice), Smash was also mirroring, Mariokart used it for a map (that had to be patched back onto the TV after fan outcry), Pikmin relegated it to a map while the remote took over, and Tropical Freeze just shut the thing off. Even a game like Splatoon, which people think used the gamepad well, was based on gyro aiming, not the second screen itself. It could easily be ported to PS4 without much thought. Most 3rd party games just used it for something weak like a map or inventory screen, which could have been accessed otherwise by just pressing pause.
Nintendo claimed in the past that they design hardware around software; that they listen to their developers and make systems to accommodate them. Wii U was the reverse; Nintendo created hardware that had no clear purpose, then tried to develop the software around it. They obviously didn't have many ideas in mind for this thing... if they did, we wouldn't have had Miyamoto in 2014 being pressured into using the gamepad in future projects after a pitiful lack of gamepad usage.
It's kind of unbelievable that something like that happened... Nintendo designed an expensive, risky system based on a controller that they had no real uses or plan for... just expecting it to work out. I don't know if they thought people would really be impressed by off-TV play and web browsing/ video streaming, or if they wanted to bring parity between the handhelds and home console regardless of whether the console side was ready for it... I remember Reggie getting roasted on a show before launch about how hardcore gamers were never going to pay $350 for a system and $60 for games they already own over again just for the gamepad, and Reggie's PR answer was to repeat "they'll see the value of the second screen!"
It would take a lot more than Mario Maker to retroactively make this mess worth it. That game is one of the few gems to shoot out of this trainwreck.
I wonder if it would be disrespectful to put Bill Trinnen and Kimishima in those places...
Devilgunman
Member
Maybe you should read a little.
We're currently living in possibly the most diverse video game era ever thanks to indies, and smaller developers pushing for a new idea. We also just had an arrival of VR which has potential to change the way we game. Just looking the game at the very top of NPD this month. It's neither an online game nor filled with movies cut scenes.
Essentially the team presented their game to him at a time when they hadn't got much beyond the main mechanics for the game and he said they should design a better signature character or just make it a Mario spinoff. I think that's the general type of development involvement he has in most of Nintendo's games at this point. I would assume most of his time is spent on executive level software planning for the company.
Pot kettle black much?
1) dear lawd, console shooters are perfectly playable even without assists (if anything, they are just a hindrance to more experienced players when the aiming doesn't work like you want it to). You just suck using a controller if you find dual stick controls unwieldy. Is it more inaccurate than a mouse? Yes. It is unplayable crap? Lulzno.
2) I have no problems jumping & aiming with dual stick controls. Git gud.
3) Gyro aiming is really mostly good as a supplemental feature that gives a bit more accuracy for aiming with a stick. It doesn't replace stick, just enhances it. Even then I don't really think it's something essential in all situations, found it to be best when sniping or when one has at least a little bit of time to stop and aim, but during more hectic & mobile situations I don't really feel gyro aiming brings all that much to the table.
There are quite a few developers who accommodate for lefties. Hell, Sony even made it a system-wide feature in PS4 to be able to fully customize controls, which can help lefties with a lot of games.
openrob
Member
Eh, but that was not the point. The point was to prove that the gamepad was a worthwhile necessity to gaming.
Bosman only briefly touched on it, but both Splatoon and Super Mario Maker were both much much much better at accomplishing this. They showed that the gamepad can improve a game experience.
With star fox, they hindered that experience.
Very good video and comments. I don't really care any more about Star Fox Zero, so I'm not going to comment on that one, but it is true that these almost personal projects of Miyamoto have kind of failed on almost every milestone along the way. From the reveal to the release. And the project missed actually its main scope: promoting the Gamepad. I think maybe this says more about Miyamoto as a leader (or project manager) than anything else, but there are some good points made also about the game designing part.
Thinking back to Pikmin 3, that was also a badly run project which ended up being too little too late for the Wii U launch, despite being one of the best games on Wii U.
Thinking back to Pikmin 3, that was also a badly run project which ended up being too little too late for the Wii U launch, despite being one of the best games on Wii U.
The creation of inkling. I put the question there as i thought that is a common knowledge here.
It feels like the people at Nintendo are too scared to be open about what their process is because its a shambles, so they make some shit up and try and live up to that. That's a bad way to be, its just putting pressure on yourself. No one can try harder to be creative. It's a state of mind you don't get to by grinding. Miyamoto made a name of himself while he was on that creative fleek, and now he's trapped by it. Poor guy needs a break!
Didn't appreciate Bosmans negative outlook too much, though he painted a good picture.
Didn't appreciate Bosmans negative outlook too much, though he painted a good picture.
IIRC, Kyle briefly mentioned that while other games may have justified the WiiU's existence, it doesn't change the fact that one of Starfox Zero's overlooked failures was that it had a unique job to do, and it failed at that job.
But yeah, to be fair to Miyamoto, justifying the WiiU isn't an easy job, and I'm not sure even something like Splatoon managed to do it.
Bear in mind, WiiU's path to ~13 million consoles and GamePads was basically set back in January 2014. Nintendo had the option of taking drastic action to try and save the WiiU, disconnecting the GamePad, rebranding the console with a Pro controller as "Wii Pro" (or whatever), and cutting the price in half. They could move more units faster, and secure/keep more third party support with a larger userbase, a third-party-friendly controller, and appeal to devs who were wary of PS4/Xbone dev costs and liked the idea of a PS360-style console that would be supported through 2017. And with a more successful detatched WiiU console, could they sell enough GamePad add-ons to reach ~13 million? Maybe. Now ask yourself, does Splatoon prove that this kind of change in the gameplan would really be so bad (considering that Splatoon would still be possible in a world where the GamePad was reduced to the status of an add-on)?
I think the problem is that Nintendo (Iwata, the board, the hardware department, whoever) was simply unwilling to accept that the GamePad was a fundamentally bad idea, so they scapegoated Miyamoto, because they needed someone to yell at, and (at the start) he wasn't putting his all into trying to sell the merits of the GamePad. But maybe that's because he was the most sensible man in the room.
Well, let's not beat around the bush, it has positive use cases but it's certainly not a necessity to gaming. Boseman makes the HUGE LEAP that because Miyamoto wasn't able to accomplish this futile task that he's lost his touch as a game creator. His ultimate point, what the entire video leads up to, is that Miyamoto is a George Lucas of gaming, that he is actively detrimental to Nintendo and gaming at large. Then he caps it off by implying that he's a misogynist.
None of this is substantiated, likely because Boseman obviously has no idea how games are made at Nintendo and what Miyamoto is actually responsible for, and he know this. He doesn't consider anything outside of his narrative (even as strawman arguments for the sake of his rhetoric), there is zero actual gameplay footage with analysis. He does come close to making some OK points about characterization and story. But as critique of a space furry STG, these aren't particularly damning IMO.
So to recap (1) personal attacks and intimations of moral failings (2) unsubstantiated viewpoints (3) refusal to acknowledge viewpoints of others (4) complete lack of context. These are the reasons that I think this was a poor attempt from Kyle, not because he's insulting Miyamoto or because I feel some need to defend Starfox Zero.
edit: this isn't really aimed at you openrob, part of your quote was just a good starting point for me to get on my futile internet forum soapbox
Spot on. A certain part of Nintendo's fandom looks like a bunch religious fanatics who will bend and alter facts just to proof a point. Criticism on leadership is sacrilegious, Nintendo is the saviour. Shameful for us who stayed in touch with the industry.
Azure Dream
Member
That's the weirdest thing. With a few tweaks to the OS and a few patches, they could've sold a Pro Controller Only Wii U when they realized things weren't working out earlier on. Cheaper, plays a majority of the games, maybe offer the GamePad separately as an "OffTV" device, since that was the most popular use. But no, "We're going to make you love it! We're going to put our best mind on coming up with reasons why it's necessary (???), we'll use a franchise you've wanted a new game for, you'll see!"
Xbox One was designed to work with the Kinect, but boy were they able to drop that hard and fast and get their price down. (Too fast IMO.)
Orniletter
Banned
Is their storytelling behind when they intentionally deemphasize stories in their games ?
Is Dark Souls story trash because of it's various holes, the obtuse nature it's delivered and that almost all of it is just backstory and your character essentially doesn't do much themselves....
...even when that's exactly what the designers tried to accomplish ?
And Star Fox's cutscenes were perfectly fine.
I take your point. I will say that's a very curated, after-the-fact thing that they get to control. They can control the impression viewers will get. They're talking about stuff that has *already happened*. Iwata Asks is a format of expression which Nintendo gets full control over. PR is hard. There's more pressure.
At the end of the day, they are a bunch of people figuring ideas out, and sometimes ya can't always know what's gonna happen, you know? So they say some shit to the press in real time, but really theres a lot of riffing ideas around and trial-and-error. Thats the nature of creativity. I think theyre afraid to let the public into that fact presently, you know?
So they put up these walls of PR so that they get to muck around and keep that fire going. It's a tough business - especially when you put so much effort into keeping the walls up! There's a brand to uphold - there's fucking pressure. When Miyamoto made Mario it was like, oh, I'll have a go at making a game - oh look he's jumping, yeah this is good..!
I think - and I speak generally here, not just for Nintendo. They do as they like. But being open from the start saves you a lot of trouble down the line. I think people are figuring that out now. You see devs interacting with consumers on the wonderful platform we call the internet. Yooka-Laylee - whatever. That kind of stuff. Nintendo had the misfortune of being established pre-internet when these values weren't as necessary to be necessarily successful.
I can see why Miyamoto would be in a rut. He's an old man. He's got old traditions. It might be hurtful to have Nintendo lie about what's going on - but I can't blame them. They're a bunch of dudes throwing ideas around and they're getting older and the industry is changing. They're like polar bears on melting ice ¯\_(ツ
_/¯Vampirolol
Member
The game is awesome and the controls are justified, but if the goal was to sell more gamepads, it's a failure. By the way, if we want to talk about Miyamoto, we should talk about his role, a role that led games like Splatoon and Mario Maker to see the light of day. Those sold the gamepad pretty fair.
Actually, that's them at their best.
It's when they try to tell a story that it sucks. Well, outside of Monolith Soft.
Orniletter
Banned
The only real stinker I could come up with is is Other M , and that's not representative of Nintendo's output.
Skyward Sword, Paper Mario, Prime 3 were good.
It's just super weird that someone with a Dark Souls avatar, of all things, criticizes Nintendo's storytelling when both are very non-standard in their approach.
And_Gignac
Member
Miyamoto's genius is historical. In the sense that it will always be a reference to videogames but also in the sense that the medium has evolved way past his abilities.
Well, let's not beat around the bush, it has positive use cases but it's certainly not a necessity to gaming. Boseman makes the HUGE LEAP that because Miyamoto wasn't able to accomplish this futile task that he's lost his touch as a game creator. His ultimate point, what the entire video leads up to, is that Miyamoto is a George Lucas of gaming, that he is actively detrimental to Nintendo and gaming at large. Then he caps it off by implying that he's a misogynist.
None of this is substantiated, likely because Boseman obviously has no idea how games are made at Nintendo and what Miyamoto is actually responsible for, and he know this. He doesn't consider anything outside of his narrative (even as strawman arguments for the sake of his rhetoric), there is zero actual gameplay footage with analysis. He does come close to making some OK points about characterization and story. But as critique of a space furry STG, these aren't particularly damning IMO.
So to recap (1) personal attacks and intimations of moral failings (2) unsubstantiated viewpoints (3) refusal to acknowledge viewpoints of others (4) complete lack of context. These are the reasons that I think this was a poor attempt from Kyle, not because he's insulting Miyamoto or because I feel some need to defend Starfox Zero.
edit: this isn't really aimed at you openrob, part of your quote was just a good starting point for me to get on my futile internet forum soapbox
Yup the way many here shout for Miyamoto to retire and acted like all of his work is worthless is disrespectful. Many of the games u guys like also had tons of his ideas. U guys simply don't care as the game is good so all the good must not be attributed to Miyamoto.
I take your point. I will say that's a very curated, after-the-fact thing that they get to control. They can control the impression viewers will get. They're talking about stuff that has *already happened*. Iwata Asks is a format of expression which Nintendo gets full control over. PR is hard. There's more pressure.
At the end of the day, they are a bunch of people figuring ideas out, and sometimes ya can't always know what's gonna happen, you know? So they say some shit to the press in real time, but really theres a lot of riffing ideas around and trial-and-error. Thats the nature of creativity. I think theyre afraid to let the public into that fact presently, you know?
So they put up these walls of PR so that they get to muck around and keep that fire going. It's a tough business - especially when you put so much effort into keeping the walls up! There's a brand to uphold - there's fucking pressure. When Miyamoto made Mario it was like, oh, I'll have a go at making a game - oh look he's jumping, yeah this is good..!
I think - and I speak generally here, not just for Nintendo. They do as they like. But being open from the start saves you a lot of trouble down the line. I think people are figuring that out now. You see devs interacting with consumers on the wonderful platform we call the internet. Yooka-Laylee - whatever. That kind of stuff. Nintendo had the misfortune of being established pre-internet when these values weren't as necessary to be necessarily successful.
I can see why Miyamoto would be in a rut. He's an old man. He's got old traditions. It might be hurtful to have Nintendo lie about what's going on - but I can't blame them. They're a bunch of dudes throwing ideas around and they're getting older and the industry is changing. They're like polar bears on melting ice ¯_(ツ
............ i am confused and lost here. Lie?misfortune?
Well anyway, while zero may not show how good gamepad is, Guard actually utilized the gamepad really well.
I cringed a bit on the bonus bit, trying to pile the design of every nintendo character on Miyamoto ignoring the context of the country or the time were they were created. Also, I see the different body types as really progressive (even if is just only the males). Do we have any other emblematic characters in gaming that are out of shape and/or ugly?
Yeah, I'm in this camp. New Star Fox backfired, but I think the last time he was really involved in a project was Pikmin, which is just a great concept AND game.
okay but these aren't kickstarter games and nintendo and most developers and publishers don't have development blogs detailing the ongoing creation of a game. that's not the norm.
Zomba13
Member
Other than telling the Splatoon team that their original designs were trash and they should use Mario if they weren't going to do any good work, what else on Splatoon did Miyamoto do? I thought the entire thing about Splatoon was that it was a chance for the "younger generation" to design a game.
Orniletter
Banned
Miyamoto's fingerprints are all over Splatoon.
The team had problems finalizing Splatoons mechanics and didn't know which theme the game should go for.
That's when Miyamoto threatened them to use Mario and told them that " A great solution doesn't solve one problem, it solves all of them".
And they decided on Squids and the traversal through ink mechanics were born. Yes, the hide in ink and go up walls stuff came later.
He was instrumental in shaping Splatoon to what it is now.
Sure. I just think there are certain ways people can act that facilitate good vibes. Nintendo aren't doing those things - that's my stab at why. I understand it's not easy to suddenly change the way you do things especially when you already have something going ie, a huge fucking company with expectations to meet.
No, no, you see, it's no longer a success of the Nintendo Garage, it's just Miyamoto now. The guys who came up with the idea and the prototype, who came up with the Inklings design, who came up with great maps and game modes have nothing to be proud about, they couldn't have done it without Miyamoto.
/s
That was not a threat, that's his philosophy. I can't find now the article or interview, but that's his process, first try to see if they can use a new idea for Mario. The rest of post has no real basis, it wasn't Miyamoto who decided to use squids or the traversal mechanic.
If that's the story, his fingerprints dont sound like they're 'all over splatoon'. Sounds like a great creative team asked their collective dad what to do for one circumstance and came up with a solution of their own creative will using advice by a guy who knows a lot of good basic things
Must feel threatening for a group of young people wanting to find their own creative feet. Nintendo could be such a good stomping grounds for fresh young game designers of a high caliber
Pancakes R Us
Member
There are fanboys, and then there are the crazies who live and die gaming by Nintendo. Nothing else is good enough. Everyone else is wrong. Everything else isn't worth playing. If this is true, why is Nintendo currently the Blackberry of the console market?