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[Hector Hall]

That's another huge bonus of the approach MS is taking with this next Xbox. Developers are no longer just developing a game for Xbox. They are developing it for PC which has a huge install base. There isn't the risk of only selling to aa small installed Xbox console. Their title, when coded for the next Xbox, can sell to anyone who owns a PC. The next XBox will have crazy 3rd party support for this reason as anything PC is made for it.

Yeah, that's true except for the fact this implies it's not Xbox but PC, there won't be Xbox version of games etc.
Xbox as it's own thing simply disappears.

 

[Hector Hall]

Problem is you outright assuming Magnus Console is a PC and would function with ONLY PC SKUs. The Console is a Console, with likely Console SKUs for the Xbox ecosystem. So in that scenario, it would be 30 GB vs 36 GB. For the Steam/Epic SKUs, the games have to use the unified memory as system ram and vram separately, so 16/20 split or 16/16/4 (OS) split is fine.

There won't be Xbox SKUS of games anymore, I thought everyone has assumed it by this point. You will buy the PC versions of games, and if you buy then in the MS Store it will have a banner of Xbox PC, that will be all.

 

[kevboard]

Yeah, that's true except for the fact this implies it's not Xbox but PC, there won't be Xbox version of games etc.
Xbox as it's own thing simply disappears.

Xbox games are already just PC games that use a semi-custom API.

you can run PC apps on Xbox, and you could run Xbox games on PC if you got around the DMR and if they weren't locked down to only work properly with one API targeting specifically Xbox hardware.

people are already working on an API translation layer for Xbox One games, similar to how Proton lets you run Windows .exe apps on Linux.

basically, all a developer would need to do to, both make an Xbox specific version and an open PC version, is have support for 2 APIs (generic Direct X, and Xbox Direct X) and specialised settings for the Xbox DX version.

and that's not anything new really. there are games that support both Vulkan and Direct X12, or games that have Steam Deck/Windows Handheld specific graphics modes (Doom has such a mode for example that reduces the RT quality below the lowest normal preset).


developers also do this on Apple devices already. if you play a game on an iPad, or an iPhone, it will automatically change its settings and performance targets depending on which model you have, which Apple silicon chip it has etc., while on a Mac you have more PC like settings.
and mobile devices are just mini PCs in principle.


so none of these concepts are new. developers already accommodate open platforms and locked down ones with the same relases.

 

[MCH2024]

If they wanted to "add something that they can't turn off" youre talking about "RAM for CPU" from that 12.5GB pool which they can just use more of. For VRAM there is plenty they can add which uses more than that "9GB VRAM" on PS5 and you can easily 'turn off' for it. Higher quality textures for one.

What is this?

The question I was asked if developers will maximize the use of 30GB. My point was that the need to support PS5's frame buffer would constrain them (alongside multiple other platforms).

9GB VRAM is not the high end of what can be allocated for only GPU but lets assume it absolutely was.

It is.

Why even mention PS5s upper VRAM usage when answering a question about the PS6?

Because it's relevant information. I have already explained in detail why I use this convention repeatedly.

You had posted an image of BG3 using 4.7GB "Top RAM" separated from "Top VRAM"

If you don't understand what I posted don't comment on it. The same Developer commented first image is system RAM And second image is VRAM. 5.3 GB was their series S's system use before "optimization".

how does that answer the question of PS6 "using its memory to its fullest extent"? You can easily scale settings to use more VRAM.

There are limits to this. Can 3GB VRAM play PC games? No, because not everything can be scaled down and the resources for supporting different configs are limited.

The point of my answer is that VRAM usage can always be trivially bloated up. But when it's built to meaningfully use a large quantity of memory, it's not always possible to shrink it down considerably without sacrificing a lot of performance. Imagine a game that uses LLMs for dynamic NPCs. PS5 would not be able to spare GBs for NPCs. So developers have to write replacement lines for PS5.

Nah, they will just build for PS5 and then uncompress audio / textures for PS6. Maybe PS6 gets PC's path tracing too.

This scenario is why I expect developers to build for PS5 / low end PC targets and then add modular easy to disable features like PT to PS6 and high end PC. Rather than build games that truly depend on an absurd memory buffer.

this. If you wanted to say PS6 memory will be underutilised due to installbase of PS5/PC how does that prevent easily utilising the VRAM for higher settings in both higher end PCs and PS6?

They are underutilized. Duh. Why do you keep asking me things when the issue is your knowledge or understanding?

How many PC games do you think can't be absolutely maxed at 16GB?

Developers don't care about >16GB PC currently. It's like less than 5% of PC's user base. Some game might allocate over 16GB but none would have issues with 16GBs.

I've never heard people call these differences (like 15% lower clock) "Slower at frontend"

It's not just because it's running 15% slower clock that it's a slower front end. It's because it has the same size front end (geometry engines, ROPs, etc) as PS5 but running it at a 15% lower clock.

They added more CU's without adding another Shader Engine. They just stuffed the extra CUs into the existing shader engines.

I've never heard people call these differences (like 15% lower clock) "Slower at frontend" but hey what do I know, maybe in your circles that's a colloquial or even somehow formal term. You seem to be constantly spitting out pretty random information at me though when my question is not related to that info.

That's what it's called. Sorry to break it to you. You literally asked me specifically to explain it. Then when I explained it in detail you don't get it, complain you don't know the term and call it random info. Why are you commenting if you have nothing to say?

I am done here. My quota for addressing nuance trolling is filled. I have responded in as much detail and in as good faith as possible. Have a nice day.

 

[Tobimacoss]

There won't be Xbox SKUS of games anymore, I thought everyone has assumed it by this point. You will buy the PC versions of games, and if you buy then in the MS Store it will have a banner of Xbox PC, that will be all.

That's NOT how things work. MS isn't going to be selling Steam or Epic versions of games. There would be Xbox ecosystem versions regardless. We don't yet know if Magnus will have Console SKUs or not, assuming anything other than status quo would be wrong as the Series consoles will still be cross gen basically forever.

 

[Shogmaster]

VR would be good, but I wanna know about Thunderbolt 5 ports and if eGPUs would work, since they work with an Xbox Ally X.

TB5 is slower in practice than Oculink for eGPUs.

Also what you gonna attach to it? RTX 5090? Not many cards gonna perform better than RX 10070XT/AT2 with basically over 20GB of VRAM, and then you subtract 20% performance off that for Oculink connection (or - 35% for TB5, or - 50% for TB4/USB4).

 

[Light_Crusader25]

If people want something, they'll find the money. It's not like console gaming was cheap in the 80's and overlooking your wind-up drivel.
People pay loads for phones, even ones that aren't trouncing the competition.

The PC gamer and console gamer are not the same.

The "market" you are alluding to is tiny, compared to the reach of a successful traditional console. But, yes, there will be people interested, certainly.

 

[Three]

What is this?

The question I was asked if developers will maximize the use of 30GB. My point was that the need to support PS5's frame buffer would constrain them (alongside multiple other platforms).

Ok, now I get it, you don't actually have a clue. PS5's framebuffer? Do you know what a framebuffer is? Man, and here I thought you were actually going to explain some of the out there claims you were making.

I am done here. My quota for addressing nuance trolling is filled. I have responded in as much detail and in as good faith as possible. Have a nice day.

Yes, we are done. Have a nice day too, all the best.

 

[Kerotan]

I still believe the ps6 console will be $599. It will be well designed and will not rely on brute force but on proper game developmenr technics, tools, and AI. The pspnext, well I dont know the price estimate.

PS6 €699 and thanks to PS5 Pro price it won't seem too bad. Tbh I'd rather a €700 machine Vs €500.

 

[Kerotan]

That's another huge bonus of the approach MS is taking with this next Xbox. Developers are no longer just developing a game for Xbox. They are developing it for PC which has a huge install base. There isn't the risk of only selling to aa small installed Xbox console. Their title, when coded for the next Xbox, can sell to anyone who owns a PC. The next XBox will have crazy 3rd party support for this reason as anything PC is made for it.

One negative is all MS first party games will be made with a weaker PS6 in mind which will hold back the potential.

 

[DeepEnigma]

My man, that's not his question.

 

[Shogmaster]

One negative is all MS first party games will be made with a weaker PS6 in mind which will hold back the potential.

Meh, it'll just comes down to better performance and/or higher resolution.

 

[Radical_3d]

They are absolutely bottlenecks. Yes, it is limited by AMD as I pointed out, but it is still absolutely bottlenecks for both systems.

 

[Baki]

Problem is you outright assuming Magnus Console is a PC and would function with ONLY PC SKUs. The Console is a Console, with likely Console SKUs for the Xbox ecosystem. So in that scenario, it would be 30 GB vs 36 GB. For the Steam/Epic SKUs, the games have to use the unified memory as system ram and vram separately, so 16/20 split or 16/16/4 (OS) split is fine.

Devs aren't making console optimized versions for a console that costs $1500 and will probably have less than 7m units install base. (Xbox right now is selling sub 2m/year)

 

[Physiognomonics]

It has 12.5GB Accessible to developers, the OS/FW/etc reserves 3.5GB. (DF)

Of that 12.5GB, a few GB's will be used by the CPU. ~3.5GB for the CPU is a reasonable estimate for the lower bound of PS5 CPU usage (BG3 Console is 5.3GB, CP2077 PC is 4.4GB, SoTR PC is 2.9GB, Wukong PC is 5.2GB, etc).

CPU / GPU work on different data. They get different allocations. Even on PC with UMA and on Xbox you see developers manage the usage of each separately. You can't game with just GPU memory.

So that leaves us with ~9GB VRAM for PS5 GPU as a high bound. And it explains why copy paste PS5 ports struggle on PC. As most PC gamers can only afford 8GB VRAM GPUs. The small discrepancy butchers PC's performance if not managed.

But ofc, you can call it 12.5GB RAM instead. In the same way NS2 is 9GB, XSS is 8.8GB, and PS5 Pro is 13.7GB.

Why do I say it like this? Because it takes the false magic out. So much bullshit was said about PS5 when it came out about how you will need 12GB VRAM to match it when most of the time PC's 8GB VRAM is enough and when it's short it's short by MBs not GBs.

This will become more important with PS6's 30GB. Since the GPU will probably get 20~22GB of it at most. PC's 18-20GB dGPU SKUs will be the closest equivalent.

And lastly, PC is more important than PS5 for gaming. So I use PC conventions as standards. Sony may have beaten Xbox, but they have not beaten Nvidia yet.

This is nonsense. From the 16GB the OS reserves 3.5GB for itself. It leaves 12.5GB useable by developers, they can allocate whatever they want to their games.

3 pools are possible : CPU, shared CPU+GPU, GPU. They can allocate 12GB for GPU alone and 0.5 GB for CPU if they want.

One game, The Touryst is supposedly running at a higher resolutoin on PS5 (8K vs 6K on XSX) because they can allocate more fast ram for the GPU (say 12GB at 448GB/s) than XSX (10GB max at 560GB/s).

 

[Zathalus]

The PS4 had a very powerful and advanced GPU for the time. Perfectly capable of pushing 60fps in almost all multiplatform titles of the time, as was tested with a 7870 back in the day. Yet most games were locked at 30fps, with quite a few struggling to reach a locked 30fps. Can you guess why? As if some part of the console was far weaker.

Would you say a PC with a 5080 and a old 6700k Intel CPU had no bottlenecks?

 

[Radical_3d]

The PS4 had a very powerful and advanced GPU for the time. Perfectly capable of pushing 60fps in almost all multiplatform titles of the time, as was tested with a 7870 back in the day. Yet most games were locked at 30fps, with quite a few struggling to reach a locked 30fps. Can you guess why? As if some part of the console was far weaker.

Would you say a PC with a 5080 and a old 6700k Intel CPU had no bottlenecks?

I'm not talking about the PS4. The PS4 had a very obvious bottleneck that was caused because the industry thought back then that the consoles were dead and that mobile gaming was going to swall it all. The consoles of those times reflect that belief and they were cheapen in their design in order to not take risks in case they were right. Thank fuck they weren't, but that let us with a very stupid generation hardware wise.

 

[Hector Hall]

That's NOT how things work. MS isn't going to be selling Steam or Epic versions of games. There would be Xbox ecosystem versions regardless. We don't yet know if Magnus will have Console SKUs or not, assuming anything other than status quo would be wrong as the Series consoles will still be cross gen basically forever.

My God, full denial. Microsoft will let you buy Steam and EGS version of games. Keys etc I don't think so as most are illegitimate. Then you will be able to buy PC versions of Games for Windows rebranded as Xbox PC, it will have the banner Xbox here and there but will be Windows versions of games executable on any PC. So no, no Xbox SKU at all.

 

[MCH2024]

3 pools are possible : CPU, shared CPU+GPU, GPU. They can allocate 12GB for GPU alone and 0.5 GB for CPU if they want.

It's theoretically possible yes. But the average game actually uses substantial amounts of memory for the CPU. You can try many games and see how much memory they use on UMA systems. Even 3GB is on the low end.

You lot are bringing up extreme examples to cope. (Running 8K on very low end RX 6650XT Class hardware LMAFO).

If one accepts that PS5 only needs MB's for CPU through "console magic", then PC would game perfectly would only 4GB RAM as long as VRAM is sufficient. But there are basically very few Gen 8/9 games that allow that.

One game, The Touryst is supposedly running at a higher resolutoin on PS5 (8K vs 6K on XSX) because they can allocate more fast ram for the GPU (say 12GB at 448GB/s) than XSX (10GB max at 560GB/s).

This is a bullshit explenation. In this extreme low CPU RAM usage game example, Xbox Series X GPU can use 12GB VRAM and it's effective bandwidth would drop to only 504 GB/s. Still more than PS5.

They probably didn't want to bother with NUMA or were bound by the frontend.