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[joelseph]

An old Frontline program that PBS is re-airing, if you have not seen it before you should check it out. I saw the first 2 hours last night and was mesmerized. The earlier years of Joseph Smith are so interesting and makes for a very entertaining documentary. I was amazed about how little I knew about this religion.

For example, I had no idea before the church Joseph was a treasure hunter, which was not uncommon for the time. He would bury his face in a top hat with a scrying stone and visions of mother earth swallowing treasure would fill his mind. This is what eventually led him to the gold tablets and eventually to create Mormonism.

http://www.pbs.org/mormons/

 

[BattlestarDT]

I always thought Mormons were something parents told their children if they were being bad.

 

[Blackace]

in before southpark..


I know way too much about them my exgf (thought we were going to marry) from a long time ago.. a Thai/Laos woman was hardcore in the church.. I think I ruined her..

 

[morningbus]

This was such an amazing series. Everyone should watch it.

 

[joelseph]

someone mentioned to me a book called something like "cloudbreaker" but I can't find it. Any help would be appreciated, they say it is a great book about this subject. And if anyone else has any other book recommendations on the subject that would be great.

 

[MrHicks]

a wierd bunch to say the least

 

[CDProp]

This is what eventually led him to the gold tablets and eventually to create Mormonism.

I don't know if that's an accurate way of characterizing it. Evidence of his treasure hunting (for instance, court records from when he was arrested) point to it happening between 1826 and 1830. He 'found' the golden plates sometime around 1823, a few years prior to that.

The Official Story is that Joseph Smith found the golden plates, not through divination or dousing, but because he was lead to them by an angel. Along with the plates, he was also given the urim and thummim, which are stones that assisted him in translating the book of Mormon. During translation, he would put the stones in his hat, and bury his face in it to block out the light, and the stones would somehow indicate what the English translation should be. The Book of Mormon was completed in 1831.

So, the chronology is something like this:

1820 - First Vision
1823 - Obtained golden plates, urim and thummim, and commenced translation
1826-1830 - Did a bunch of treasure-hunting
1831 - Completed translation of the Book of Mormon

The court records indicate that Joseph Smith's treasure hunting process was very similar to that of his purported translation process, i.e. placing the stones in his hat (urim and thummim), and burying his face in it to block the light, and get the info he needed from the stones.

The fact that he was participating in such (apparently fraudulent) treasure hunting activities during the time that he was purportedly using the stones to work on a translation of the Book of Mormon cast doubt, in many peoples' minds, about the claims of Joseph Smith.

I think it's interesting to note that Joseph Smith wasn't arrested for dousing per se, but for false dousing, i.e. the courts saw no problem with people trying to make money off of dousing, as long as they were real dousers. :lol

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

Big Love is a great show

thats all i can say

 

[Borgnine]

Saw this before, highly recommended (as is anything Frontline).

My favorite part is that old black lady that's all "they came in and told me the most preposterous story I had ever heard in my life. They told me about this white boy, a dead angel, and some gold plates." :lol

 

[ronito]

fairly accurate, I remember it made some mormons mad when it came out. But still accurate.

 

[Fenderputty]

a wierd bunch to say the least

They honestly freak me out.

 

[levious]

someone mentioned to me a book called something like "cloudbreaker" but I can't find it. Any help would be appreciated, they say it is a great book about this subject. And if anyone else has any other book recommendations on the subject that would be great.

I think there's a good biography on Smith called No Man Knows My Story or something...

ah, No Man Knows My History

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0679730540/?tag=neogaf0e-20

 

[j_k_redtail]

Haven't seen this one, but I just wanted to say that Frontline is an amazing series, and the episode is actaully available online at the link in the OP.

 

[NumberTwo]

Mormons.

 

[Count Dookkake]

OP should read "Led him to create the gold tablets."

 

[joelseph]

I think there's a good biography on Smith called No Man Knows My Story or something...

ah, No Man Knows My History

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0679730540/?tag=neogaf0e-20

Thank you very much, I am going to look into it. Someone else mentioned The Salamander Letter, I hope to find a good book about Mark Hofmann too!

 

[Ripenen]

Haven't seen the show, but I read Under the Banner of Heaven and it was a very interesting story of the Mormon faith. It painted a pretty negative picture of the religion, making it sound almost like a cult. I'm not sure how accurate or exhaustive the book is, but Krakauer is a pretty good writer so the book is a relatively easy but enjoyable read given the subject matter.

 

[aceface]

My wife grew up near Palmyra where Smith supposedly found the tablets. It's kind of amazing and depressing all at the same time that a major religion began there.

 

[Shapingo]

Story of Mormonism in Cartoon form (not south park)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE

 

[leroy hacker]

And if anyone else has any other book recommendations on the subject that would be great.

"One Nation Under Gods"

http://www.amazon.com/One-Nation-Under-Gods-History/dp/1568582838/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262978070&sr=8-1

 

[movie_club]

Wow this is strange, i was just thinking of watching this on their webiste

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

Under the Banner of Heaven - That's a good book about murder and Mormons.

 

[speculawyer]

I worked with a mormon guy who thought that CoD 5 was awesome because you could use a bayonette on the Japanese and their dogs yet was offended by the cursing.

 

[theJwac]

Story of Mormonism in Cartoon form (not south park)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE

Holy shit that was unsettling. The race explanations are what really bothered me.

 

[toxicgonzo]

I worked with a mormon guy who thought that CoD 5 was awesome because you could use a bayonette on the Japanese and their dogs yet was offended by the cursing.

This made me laugh for some reason

 

[ronito]

Story of Mormonism in Cartoon form (not south park)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE

almost all of that "doctrine" has been disavowed by the church. Though celestial sex sounds hawt!

I worked with a mormon guy who thought that CoD 5 was awesome because you could use a bayonette on the Japanese and their dogs yet was offended by the cursing.

I see this so much it makes me laugh. One guy wouldn't get Persona 4 because he thought the "Let's go to your room" scenes were awful because it could be implied that you had sex, yet he loved Call of Duty. I was like "WTF?"

 

[speculawyer]

I see this so much it makes me laugh. One guy wouldn't get Persona 4 because he thought the "Let's go to your room" scenes were awful because it could be implied that you had sex, yet he loved Call of Duty. I was like "WTF?"

It's because their the "bad guys".

He also told us of how his uncle was shunned from the church after his wife told them he was masturbating. Eventually they let him back in when they realized she wouldn't have sex with him. It had been like 4 years. He divorced her (another no,no) and still let him in.

 

[Westonian]

He also told us of how his uncle was shunned from the church after his wife told them he was masturbating. Eventually they let him back in when they realized she wouldn't have sex with him. It had been like 4 years. He divorced her (another no,no) and still let him in.

I'm pretty sure that's not really what happened. Nobody is going to get ex-communicated for masturbating, and divorce (with cause) is not a no-no in the Mormon faith.

 

[ronito]

I'm pretty sure that's not really what happened. Nobody is going to get ex-communicated for masturbating, and divorce (with cause) is not a no-no in the Mormon faith.

He didn't say ex-communicated, masturbating is enough to get you shunned in a lot of wards and divorce is definitely not looked upon favorably. Yes it is allowed but still not looked upon favorably.

 

[Westonian]

He didn't say ex-communicated, masturbating is enough to get you shunned in a lot of wards and divorce is definitely not looked upon favorably. Yes it is allowed but still not looked upon favorably.

I don't even know what that means. Shunned? Unless the wife decided to tell the whole ward from the pulpit how would they even know? And divorce is perfectly acceptable, with cause. There are several divorced women in my ward who are not looked upon with the least bit of ill judgment. If his wife was really an ice queen who refused to have sex with him for four years, I don't think anyone, Mormon or otherwise, would begrudge him divorcing her.

Besides, you'll find plenty of anecdotal loon stories from any group, religion, race, nationality, etc. Best not to paint with broad strokes.

 

[PflargBlarg]

Haven't seen the show, but I read Under the Banner of Heaven and it was a very interesting story of the Mormon faith. It painted a pretty negative picture of the religion, making it sound almost like a cult. I'm not sure how accurate or exhaustive the book is, but Krakauer is a pretty good writer so the book is a relatively easy but enjoyable read given the subject matter.

I've been thinking about this for a bit now. What exactly separates cults from religions? I know there's a difference but I'm not totally sure what it is. Is it something to do with the leader of the cult being deified in a way, or something else?

 

[speculawyer]

I don't even know what that means. Shunned? Unless the wife decided to tell the whole ward from the pulpit how would they even know? And divorce is perfectly acceptable, with cause. There are several divorced women in my ward who are not looked upon with the least bit of ill judgment. If his wife was really an ice queen who refused to have sex with him for four years, I don't think anyone, Mormon or otherwise, would begrudge him divorcing her.

Besides, you'll find plenty of anecdotal loon stories from any group, religion, race, nationality, etc. Best not to paint with broad strokes.

Agreed. I don't know the details of the story and this was second/third hand. However, I can judge from him as he was very hardcore and open about it. He seems brainwashed and seemed like he was at the social level of a 12 year old. Very smart intellectually but was clearly sheltered from a whole lot of stuff. If you just said penis around him he'd get all uncomfortable and would usually leave the room. And I'm not talking in a dick joke type way. More like a biological conversation.

 

[Barbacoatl]

Christian fan-fiction is always interesting.

 

[ronito]

I've been thinking about this for a bit now. What exactly separates cults from religions? I know there's a difference but I'm not totally sure what it is. Is it something to do with the leader of the cult being deified in a way, or something else?

It's really interesting I always used to get asked if I thought Mormonism was a cult and certainly it was, but not more so than any other religion.

A cult is defined as taking up a lot of your personal time/thought, has a charismatic leader, has rites and ceremonies, or an exclusive group.

Well that's essentially all religions right there.

Where mormons keep getting hit with it is that it does require a lot of time, unlike a lot of christians where they go to a weekly sermon which lasts 30 minutes and that's it, the mormon church does take a lot of time. But in a way that just means mormons tend to be more faithful.

But it always made me laugh when people laughed mormon beliefs. They're no more silly than other beliefs. Especially when people think it's crazy that Christ came to america. I'm like he walked on water, raised people from the dead, fasted for 40 days, faced satan, was resurrected and you're saying "LOLZ no way he could've gone to Tijuana!"

 

[jason10mm]

I've worked with many, many Mormons (the Air Force must recruit heavily in Utah) and almost to a man, they were upstanding, intelligent, and great folks. I'm always amazed at these deeper stories about their religion, though I suppose almost every religion has a fairly implausible origin story to it.

I still find it amusing that up till the 1960's or whatever it was still technically legal to kill a Mormon in some state (Idaho, Indiana?).

On a side note, should the zombie apocalypse ever occur, your nearby Mormon community would be a FANTASTIC place to run, those guys take self preparedness VERY seriously.

 

[Hitokage]

"Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith" is a book I particularly enjoyed, giving a no-nonsense account that lets the facts speak for themselves. Of course, that's pretty damn unflattering and the author got into trouble just the same.

"One Nation Under Gods"

http://www.amazon.com/One-Nation-Under-Gods-History/dp/1568582838/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262978070&sr=8-1

Be wary of this book. Although I've heard the weirder stuff is what he got right, the scholarship on this book is suspect and the author has an interest in pushing "true christianity" rather than telling history.

 

[CharlieDigital]

I worked with a mormon guy who thought that CoD 5 was awesome because you could use a bayonette on the Japanese and their dogs yet was offended by the cursing.

I worked with Mormons who refused to drink coffee or tea but downed Mountain Dew and Diet Coke in 96oz super-fucking-mega gulps.

I don't get it either.

Also, with the cursing: they would use terms like "fudge" or other such substitutes. But my question is what's the point? Doesn't this mean that you had the same intent (cursing) and performed a mental substitution of the words (so basically, you still cursed in your head). See what I'm getting at?

 

[Hitokage]

By the way, I'm going to respectfully disagree with much of ronito's last post, at least in terms of the church as an organization, but I'll have to go into detail at some other time.

Also, with the cursing: they would use terms like "fudge" or other such substitutes. But my question is what's the point? Doesn't this mean that you had the same intent (cursing) and performed a mental substitution of the words (so basically, you still cursed in your head). See what I'm getting at?

Letter of the law, not the spirit.

 

[Borgnine]

I was with a Mormon girl for a little while. It was pretty fun, she wouldn't put it in her mouth though. She later converted to Wicca.

 

[ronito]

By the way, I'm going to respectfully disagree with much of ronito's last post, at least in terms of the church as an organization, but I'll have to go into detail at some other time.

So you think the mormon church is a cult?

I can see the argument with the prophet and 12 and all that. Certainly when you go to Utah County you really feel that way. But there are always people that take their religion too seriously, it's not exclusive to mormonism.

 

[joelseph]

By the way, I'm going to respectfully disagree with much of ronito's last post, at least in terms of the church as an organization, but I'll have to go into detail at some other time.

If you find the time I would appreciate reading your thoughts. The cult aspects of LDS is what is so intriguing for me.

 

[Hitokage]

So you think the mormon church is a cult?

I can see the argument with the prophet and 12 and all that. Certainly when you go to Utah County you really feel that way. But there are always people that take their religion too seriously, it's not exclusive to mormonism.

First of all, the c-word opens a huge semantic can of worms whenever it is used, so arguing about whether this or that group is one or not is kinda pointless without nailing that down first. To make things extremely brief I'll introduce "destructive cult" which has the defining element of deception. Considering the "milk before meat" policy and how temple endowments are treated, then there is a case to be made.

Anyway, there's a difference between church members taking things too seriously and leadership telling members to take it too seriously. Now, obviously there is room in how much people actually try to follow what's told to them in General Conference (and quite frankly members like yourself who think to push back aren't looked kindly upon), but the preferred direction is clear.

 

[ronito]

There's a difference between church members taking things too seriously and leadership telling members to take it too seriously. Now, obviously there is room in how much people actually try to follow what's told to them in General Conference (and quite frankly members like yourself who think to push back aren't looked kindly upon), but the preferred direction is clear.

that's a fair enough statement.

Perhaps such things are lost on me since I tend to ignore all that anyway...good point

 

[Gilby]

I've been thinking about this for a bit now. What exactly separates cults from religions? I know there's a difference but I'm not totally sure what it is. Is it something to do with the leader of the cult being deified in a way, or something else?

IMO, nothing except the amount of members.

 

[FlyinJ]

I still find it amusing that up till the 1960's or whatever it was still technically legal to kill a Mormon in some state (Idaho, Indiana?).

What's even cuter and more amusing is that the Mormon church considered all black and native american people to be genetically inferior "beings" and wouldn't allow them into the church until the 1970s.

What is -actually- funny about that is, as soon as they dropped this restriction, black and native american people actually joined the church!

I mean, it's one of the core bases that the religion was founded on- native americans were the cast-outs of heaven that occupied a sort of "purgatory" that was the American continent. Black people were also grouped into this category.

I just want to know who was lined up waiting to join a religion that is based on the hatred and extermination of your race....

 

[Hitokage]

IMO, nothing except the amount of members.

Like I said.

I just want to know who was lined up waiting to join a religion that is based on the hatred and extermination of your race....

Extermination? Heavens no, ideally they'll become righteous and then freed from their dark skin.

 

[CDProp]

What's even cuter and more amusing is that the Mormon church considered all black and native american people to be genetically inferior "beings" and wouldn't allow them into the church until the 1970s.

Sooo many misconceptions in one sentence. Black people and Native Americans were always allowed in the church, and the church has always had black and Native American members. Up until 1978, black people were not allowed to hold the Priesthood, which is a special ordinance in the church. But they could still be members. And as far as I'm aware, African Americans (edit: I mean Native Americans) were never banned from the Priesthood. And the rationale for the ban against black people had absolutely nothing to do with them being "genetically inferior beings" (for chrissakes, the ban was put into effect decades before Mendel came along; I'd like to see the primary source for someone from the 1840's calling black people 'genetically inferior' lol).

Bad? Perhaps, but there's no need to spread rumors that inflate how bad it was.

 

[MrHicks]

Story of Mormonism in Cartoon form (not south park)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE

this almost rivals scientology in the "LOLWUT" factor
compared to scientology it still sounds pretty sane though

 

[Shalashaska]

Sooo many misconceptions in one sentence. Black people and Native Americans were always allowed in the church, and the church has always had black and Native American members. Up until 1978, black people were not allowed to hold the Priesthood, which is a special ordinance in the church. But they could still be members. And as far as I'm aware, African Americans (edit: I mean Native Americans) were never banned from the Priesthood. And the rationale for the ban against black people had absolutely nothing to do with them being "genetically inferior beings" (for chrissakes, the ban was put into effect decades before Mendel came along; I'd like to see the primary source for someone from the 1840's calling black people 'genetically inferior' lol).

Bad? Perhaps, but there's no need to spread rumors that inflate how bad it was.

You're talking about GAF and religion, what do you expect?

 

[levious]

Sooo many misconceptions in one sentence. Black people and Native Americans were always allowed in the church, and the church has always had black and Native American members. Up until 1978, black people were not allowed to hold the Priesthood, which is a special ordinance in the church. But they could still be members. And as far as I'm aware, African Americans (edit: I mean Native Americans) were never banned from the Priesthood. And the rationale for the ban against black people had absolutely nothing to do with them being "genetically inferior beings" (for chrissakes, the ban was put into effect decades before Mendel came along; I'd like to see the primary source for someone from the 1840's calling black people 'genetically inferior' lol).

Bad? Perhaps, but there's no need to spread rumors that inflate how bad it was.

genetically, no, but inferior race yes... that's not a hard concept to find in old mormon doctrine.