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[Instigator]

Threads like these make me wonder:

How is it like to post at GAF as a Mormon?

Ronito and ex-Mormons need not answer.

 

[ronito]

damnit, why is it whenever I make a huge post it's always the last at the bottom of a page? Odelay.

 

[krypt0nian]

So to sorta sort out stuff between this and Maher:

Mormons believe Indians came from Middle East: True. However, their argument is that civilization was mostly wiped out (and it is in the Book of Mormon) so they'll make the argument of, of course there's no DNA they were destroyed. That and the section of civilization was so small and remote they just haven't found it 'yet".

Brigham Young and Race mixing: True. In fact even in some circles my wife and I get comments (I'm latino and she's white) like "Such a shame she couldn't find a white boy." Or nasty looks and stuff. Once I got "Aren't you so lucky that in heaven you'll both be white?" from an old white lady.

Trillions of planets by countless gods? Not really doctrine. Conjecture at best. Yes the church does teach that there are trillions of planets (yay!) and it does teach that Jesus created the earth. And it also did espouse the teachings that there could be other gods. Now putting all that together you COULD get to realization that there could be tons of gods for tons of worlds. But it's not fomally doctrine or something the church espouses oficially anymore.

Elohim born as a man There's a couplet that says "As man is God once was, as God is man can be." That's really about as far as official church doctrine goes. And even the last prophet Gordon B. Hinckley said on Larry King live that he "didn't know" if it was true.

God has a body: Very true. A basic pillar of mormonism.

God has many wives on Kolob Again conjecture. There is one scripture where it says God lives on planet close to Kolob. The scriptures don't talk much about a female godess. But the early church used to teach that a man could only get into heaven if he had many wives. So therefore one could conjecture that God has multiple wives. However, the church no longer believes in polygamy and hasn't for 1890 (at least on paper) and 1904 when they said "No we really mean it." So if you ask a modern mormon about this they'll be shocked and say it isn't true. If you asked a mormon back in the days of polygamy, it's possible they'd agree.

Celestial sex: Again sounds hawt but there's nothing in mormon doctrine about having sex to make spirit children, it just says that there are spirit children. It's conjecture (but not entirely out of place) that this would happen through "celestial sex".

Head of Mormon gods called a council: Half-true. it is taught there was a council and there was one god there.

Lucifer Jesus's brother and 1/3 that followed him: Yeah of course Lucifer and Jesus are brothers. Didn't God create both? If not then who created him? As to the 1/3 that followed him to become demons that's also true, though officially it's taught they never had bodies so they're just evil spirits.

Less valiant = dark skin: Sadly true. Prominent Apostle McConkie believed this through and through and this was even written in the first few editions of "Mormon Doctrine" which is a staple in mormon teaching. After the whole allowing the blacks the priesthood the church had this section removed and McConkie was famously quoted as saying "Throw everything that I or anyone else ever said about this away. We were speaking with an imperfect understanding."

Valiant people were born mormon Certainly I heard this up and down until the late nineties after that the church has sorta backed away from this.

White and delightsome Very true. In fact some apostles still teach that as the african and latino races get more righteous they're getting lighter in complexion.

God came was Adam: Brigham Young was adamant about this and taught that if you didn't believe that God was Adam you'd go to hell. After he died however the church abandoned this teaching.

Elohim came in human form to impregnate Mary: Absolutely false. Mormon teachings about this is similar to catholic and other christian denominations.

Jesus had multiple wives: First off, it's not remarkable to think that Jesus was married they called him rabbi and rabbis were typically married. But mormon belief is that Jesus set the example for us, in getting baptized going to the temple, praying and such, so it makes sense he'd get married as that's required to get to the highest degree of heaven. As to multiple wives, well that's of course been backed off from since polygamy was disavowed. There's actually no "Offical" teaching about Jesus' wife(wives). Most mormons will just reply they don't know.

Joseph Smith saying he was a descendant of Jesus Yeah, he said a lot of crazy stuff. Technically he said he was a descendant of Joseph sold into Egypt, and the bible says Jesus descended from him so...

Jesus came to the Americas: True. Basic mormon teaching.

Dark skinned people killed all the light skinned people and gold plates: all true

all christian creeds were an abomination True, mormonism teaches that only the mormon church has the "whole" truth.

Standing judgement before Joseph Smith, Jesus and Elohim: Joseph and Brigham both taught that they and others would be "sentitnels" or guards that you had to pass on the way to heaven, but final judgement was supposed to be between Jesus and Elohim.

Polygamist Gods: It is true that to get into the celestial kingdom you must be married in the temple, the polygamist part of it has of course been removed. Mormons no longer believe that.

Joseph smith said he did more than any other man including jesus chirst for man's salvation.: No, it was Brigham Young that said that.

Mormons can become gods: This used to be a central belief of the mormon church, but since Hinkley the church as backed off from this teaching.

Informative post!

 

[Sanchito]

I almost married into a mormon family a long time ago. My GF wanted to be married in the temple and the only way that was happening was for me to convert. At the time, I didn't know much about them. So I went to the local LDS church a few times and just wasn't very comfortable.

I started reading the book of mormon and doing research.. that is when I knew for sure I wasn't interested. No way can I believe that I would become a god of my own planet! I questioned my GF on it. Like, do you REALLY believe you will become a god?? (enter Ghostbusters reference here) She said she did.

Eventually she asked me to talk to some dude at her church. I asked him a bunch of questions and found scriptures in the book of Mormon that I felt were "off" He started getting upset because I questioned that how can the book of mormon say you'll become a god, yet in the Bible, it makes no mention of this. I mean, I wasn't trying to be a jerk.. this was the rest of my life here, if I were to marry this girl. I just wanted to be sure I was doing the right thing.

In then end, I just couldn't do it. Thank god for that. Lesson learned. She was an awesome person..as were her family. I have nothing against Mormons and find their religion to be very interesting. Just wasn't what in believe in.

 

[CDProp]

Alright, I should probably admit my prejudice. As far as I'm concerned, Mormons are a bunch of heretic cultists (though that's really more because I'm Orthodox Catholic. Basically anyone protestant of any type is a heretic to me). This continues on with the cult label. Keep in mind, I keep a broad definition of cult as well. A cult is any group, religious or otherwise, that believes only the ones in the cult can be "saved" or some other similar concept, excluding outside figures, and erasing any doubt of such beliefs from their minds.

Semantics are fun.

So, if that's your definition of 'cult', then we can simply replace the word 'cult' in your statement with your definition and get an equivalent, albeit far more verbose, statement, right? Let's try it:

Alright, I should probably admit my prejudice. As far as I'm concerned, Mormons are a bunch of heretic people that believe only the ones in the [religious group] can be "saved" or some other similar concept, excluding outside figures, and erasing any doubt of such beliefs from their minds.

Hmmm, that version of it sounds much less provocative than 'cult.'

Do you see what I'm saying here? It's as if you decided beforehand that you wanted to use the word 'cult' because of how cutting it is, but then you had to come up with a 'broad' definition to fit it. Trouble is, your 'broad' definition isn't all that incendiary at all.

It's as if I decided to argue that most Catholics are murderers, and then defined 'murderer' to be 'anyone who eats meat.'

Also, a couple other points:

a) No shit you think they're heretics. If they weren't heretics in your eyes, they'd be Catholic. How ironic this is, considering that you main complaint about Mormonism is that they're too narrow about who they consider 'saved'.

b) You're actually wrong about Mormon. They don't believe they are the only ones who can be saved. In fact, they are the most open religion at all because, while they consider themselves to have the Priesthood (just as the Catholics do), anyone can attain some level of heaven without it. Only a select few go to hell (outer darkness). Not only that, but there will be a period of 1000 years where everyone who have died without accepting the Priesthood and other ordinances which are necessary for the highest degree of heaven, will have an opportunity to do so.

c) As someone who was raised in the Roman Catholic church, I know for a fact that the Catholic Catechism teaches that salvation is only possible with a Catholic baptism. In my experience, Orthodox churches are far more restrictive about membership than the Roman Catholic church. Are you absolutely positive that Orthodox Catholics teach that anyone can be saved, no matter what their religion?

Joseph smith said he did more than any other man including jesus chirst for man's salvation.: No, it was Brigham Young that said that.

I agree with everything you said except this. It actually was Joseph Smith who said it.

 

[speculawyer]

Be wary of this book. Although I've heard the weirder stuff is what he got right, the scholarship on this book is suspect and the author has an interest in pushing "true christianity" rather than telling history.

Yeah, that is always something to look out for.

I was once poking around on the internet and came across 'The God Makers' . . . man was that a comical aniti-mormon hit piece . . . total garbage. It comes across like a cheesy 40's educational film against VD or something like that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_God_Makers

 

[Deleted member 1159]

Elohim came in human form to impregnate Mary: Absolutely false. Mormon teachings about this is similar to catholic and other christian denominations.

Really? I was taught this in Seminary during my Senior year by a man who's now the bishop of my home ward (my dad's his first counselor,) and he's not the only one I heard it from. In fact, they seemed to mock the idea of the immaculate conception, scoffing at the impossibility of it...Mormons mocking other religions for convoluted teachings, of course, now seems preposterous, but whatever.

I agree with everything you said except this. It actually was Joseph Smith who said it.

No, that quote came after his death. It's in the Doctrine and Covenants in a section written by John Taylor. Verse 3

 

[gerg]

I fear that my question will be lost on the last page...

Out of curiosity, how does someone justify following the "letter of the law" but not the "spirit of the law"? Doing so sincerely seems to involve either some complex mental gymnastics (doublethink comes to mind) or not thinking about the meaning of the law in its entirety.

 

[yuna55]

While we're on the subject, can we talk about the underwear situation?

 

[Deleted member 1159]

Out of curiosity, how does someone justify following the "letter of the law" but not the "spirit of the law"? Doing so sincerely seems to involve either some complex mental gymnastics (doublethink comes to mind) or not thinking about the meaning of the law in its entirety..

Well, you kinda answered your own question here: mental gymnastics and doublethink. That's really what allows one to exist both in the world of Mormonism and in the modern world. Mental gymnastics are the only way to quell the cognitive dissonance one feels as a Mormon these days. For some it works. For others, the cognitive dissonance lingers and nags until they decide to deal with it. For my (intelligent) elder brother this has only made him a stronger Mormon, and he holds this mistrust of most scientists now. It's almost scary to me that someone so smart can be so deceived by himself. For me, dealing with it was going back to square one and deciding what exactly I believed in and why. A lot of LDS people have a crisis of faith and are told to start at "Do I believe in God the father and Jesus Christ? Yes. Do I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet? Yes." And if you start from that foundation you can get someone to believe any kind of bullshit you want. That's not what I did, I attempted to strip my beliefs to the most basic, and when I looked at things as objectively as possible and tried to be an "outsider" instead of someone who was raised to believe this stuff was normal, it became obvious it was a charade. It was a strange ride and I wavered back and forth, but the end result is I want little to do with the LDS church in my life. I now live in Salt Lake City and my entire family, most of my extended family and the majority of my friends are Mormon, so I've come to accept it's never going to completely leave unless I do, and that's not a step I'm willing to take. So here I am. Others come to the same crossroads in their lives and choose different paths. Such is life.

While we're on the subject, can we talk about the underwear situation?

What do you want to know about them? They have sacred symbols woven into them that are to remind members of their covenants made in the temple. They're also rather unflatteringly large to promote modesty in dress, and are sorta there to encourage chastity too...the idea being that once the clothes start coming off you might be reminded of your vows by the time you get down to your skivvies. At least, that's how I looked at them when I wore them, but I can't say they kept me chaste.

There are, of course, legends of people being physically protected by their garments. People being burned everywhere except where their garments covered, garments stopping bullets, my good friend claimed his dad's stopped a saw blade from cutting into his leg once, etc. As far as I know them being a physical shield is never taught officially, just kinda goes along with the rest of the Mormon mythos.

 

[ronito]

Really? I was taught this in Seminary during my Senior year by a man who's now the bishop of my home ward (my dad's his first counselor,) and he's not the only one I heard it from. In fact, they seemed to mock the idea of the immaculate conception, scoffing at the impossibility of it...Mormons mocking other religions for convoluted teachings, of course, now seems preposterous, but whatever.



No, that quote came after his death. It's in the Doctrine and Covenants in a section written by John Taylor. Verse 3

I've heard people hinting and such but really there's set doctrine accepted by the whole church that says God came to Mary's door pimpin.

As to the quote I guess Joseph said it as well as Brigham Young, my bad:

A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. - History of the Church p. 409

 

[ronito]

While we're on the subject, can we talk about the underwear situation?

what you want to know?

 

[Trurl]

Does the LDS church consider itself to be monotheistic?

 

[Deleted member 1159]

I've heard people hinting and such but really there's set doctrine accepted by the whole church that says God came to Mary's door pimpin.

As to the quote I guess Joseph said it as well as Brigham Young, my bad:

As far as I know it's never really addressed explicitly as doctrine, but I think McConkie was rather adamant about it too. Then again, the church pretty much disowns a lot of what he said these days.

Does the LDS church consider itself to be monotheistic?

It's a little more complicated than just a yes or no answer, but for all intents and purposes I'd say yes. The complication is twofold: one, the concept of the Godhead in Mormonism is different from the trinity of, say, Catholicism. In Mormonism God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are three separate entities, unified in purpose. So they are basically three different people: God is God, Jesus is his spiritual son like all of us, as well as his physical son (the whole God banged Mary idea,) and the Holy Ghost or Spirit is pretty similar to its other incarnations in Christianity, but the only way to feel its influence constantly and to be guided by it is to be baptized into Mormonism and have your membership confirmed by a Priesthood blessing. All three are perfect, and all three are divine. It's important to understand that in Mormonism, God has a physical body, and because of that he is constrained by certain limitations of a physical body (i.e. he can't be everywhere at once.) This is of course completely different than the idea that God is everywhere and nowhere seen in other sects of Christianity. That's why it's important that the Holy Ghost be without a physical body, so God can have his influence over us all at the same time. Anyway, in this case there are three divine members of one Godhead, but because they act as one entity it's essentially the same as other monotheistic religions. There's no God of the seas or God of the forest or whatever. Nobody prays to the Holy Ghost or Jesus specifically, it's all directed toward God the Father.

Secondly, there's the question of other gods, like Elohim, existing. This is purely a logical conjecture and isn't really taught. The reasoning is, if God were once a man such as we, and since we all have the potential to become gods ourselves, then it stands to reason that there were others on his sphere of existence that also received exaltation status and are off creating worlds of their own, having children, etc. In this case it's almost pointless to bring up because I was always told something to the effect of yeah, it's possible, however we are only concerned with our own god as he is the only one who has any sort of influence in our realm of existence. It's also never specified if those gods would exist in our physical universe, (like could we observe one of their galaxies from Earth?) or in a separate universe entirely. Basically it's something that has been thought of and members tend to shrug their shoulders and say "sounds reasonable," but isn't at all important to the core teachings of the church, so no one really cares outside of evangelicals looking for reasons to prove the church is false.

 

[Enojado]

While we're on the subject, can we talk about the underwear situation?

You mean mormon garments? Here's a pic for you http://hiscrivener.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/mormon-holy-underwear.jpg - may be considered NSFW???

 

[MrHicks]

You mean mormon garments? Here's a pic for you http://hiscrivener.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/mormon-holy-underwear.jpg - may be considered NSFW???

grandma underwear!

 

[Replicant]

What is this? I don't even.........some of those shots look like they belong in the hot men thread....

Mormon Exposed

It's like every single guy there is a stud after their transformation. Notice how the plain haircomb turns into a stud haircomb. And it seems every single male mormon is gym enthusiast?

Speaking of Mormon, here in Australia (or Sydney rather), they seem to have a penchant for recruiting Asians. I wonder why.

 

[Deku]

I think my problem with mormonism isn't that followers of the faith aren't 'nice'. Most religious people, evangelicals included, have a very nice demeanor, are generally pleasant and honest to deal with etc.

It's really how they treat you if you do not conform to their strict doctrinal image of what people should be doing.

Watch porn? go to hell
Are of the the progressive hue? going even deeper into hell
like to play videogames? you have an addiction and need saving.


And unfortunatelly, while most catholics treat their religiousity more casually, most mormons take it quite seriously. Thus while I can deal with catholics just fine and talk about subject matter that may be considered taboo for religious people, I just don't talk about it when Mormon friends are around.

I know they will throw a shit fit.

 

[ronito]

You mean mormon garments? Here's a pic for you http://hiscrivener.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/mormon-holy-underwear.jpg - may be considered NSFW???

I'm guessing more than a pic is wanted?

They're called garments, and are part of the temple ritual. When you go through the temple for the first time you get them. It's a symbol of the ceremonies done there and have masonic symbols on it (like most things in the temple ritual). How they're viewed is sorta generational. For example, a lot of the older generation was taught you only ever take them off for as long as it takes to do the sexual act (one funny incident where a friend was given some lingerie for her wedding shower only to have her mom say "How are you supposed to wear that with garments?") whereas the younger generation are a bit more permissive about not wearing them during sex and exercise. Regardless they're taken VERY seriously by any generation of mormons and are not talked about at all, as they take oaths not to talk about them in the temple. But seeing as how that oath is more about the symbols on them and the fact there's all kinds of misinformation out there. They are supposed to be how God recognizes his people and you certainly can't go to heaven if you're not wearing them. In fact it's expected that if you're not living the way you should you'll stop wearing them. Some people view it as the garment rejecting the user, but in actuality they're not very comfy/are a pain (some women get yeast infections a lot during the summer more easily) so unless you're convinced you're in need of them you wont wear them. If you've committed a big sin (like constant porn viewing, drinking or adultery, or don't pay tithe) you'll be asked to not wear them until you've been through the repenting process. Some mormons believe that bestows protection to you (ergo the magical part) there are plenty of mormon folklore stories where someone was in a fire and they were burnt everywhere, except parts that were covered by the garments. Stories like that are very prevelant throughout the church. Some people believe this to be true (in fact I'd say most) whereas a minority believes they're just symbolic of the oaths and covenants of the temple and nothing more.

As I stated mormons take garments very seriously, they're very secret, you can only buy them from temple stores or special stores owned by the church, mormons are not supposed to let anyone see any part of their garments (ergo why mormon mommies tend to cover up) in fact even met a few men who's wives wouldn't allow them to see them in their garments, when the garments are old and used up mormons are instructed to cut up or burn the sections with symbols on it.

 

[legend166]

Hey Frank what's up.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Honestly, the Mormon faith fascinates me almost more so than any other religion. My undergrad was in Religious Studies and my Masters was in biblical studies so that may be a reason why. The Mormon faith (if we ignore Native Americans) is the first and only world religion that originated in the states. Also, unlike other sects from the 19th century Burned Over District (7th Day Adventism/Jehovah's Witnesses/Christadelphians/etc.) the LDS has a wide reach in focusing on the scholarly aspect of the religion. Scholarly in the aspect of studying the history, looking at the archeological evidence/or lack there of, etc. Then you add in the history of its earliest members, trekking from Illinois to Missouri, and finally to the founding of Salt Lake City? It is just an extremely interesting religion and history.

 

[speculawyer]

He also told us of how his uncle was shunned from the church after his wife told them he was masturbating. Eventually they let him back in when they realized she wouldn't have sex with him. It had been like 4 years. He divorced her (another no,no) and still let him in.

The thought of a wife telling your church that you jerked off is bizarre. That just seems so wrong in so many ways. Someone squeezed one off . . . so what? And why would the church care? And what kind of wife would squeal on you to the church? I just can't wrap my head around all that. :lol

 

[speculawyer]

Like I said.Extermination? Heavens no, ideally they'll become righteous and then freed from their dark skin.

So here is a stupid bizarre question . . . if the dark skin is viewed as a bad thing, do some Mormons actively avoid the sun to keep their skin light? Are there very few tanning salons in Utah?

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

The thought of a wife telling your church that you jerked off is bizarre. That just seems so wrong in so many ways. Someone squeezed one off . . . so what? And why would the church care? And what kind of wife would squeal on you to the church? I just can't wrap my head around all that. :lol

Happens in religion of Jehovah's Witnesses. The girl I was dating at the time was 'forced' to confess that we had done sexual stuff (everything but intercourse) to her parents in front of the elders (who were all male). Their response was to reprove her, removing all privileges she had in the Kingdom Hall. The backing is in the Bible (depending on your interpretation) which is why their are Catholic priests to confess your sins to. Obviously its different to confess a sin to someone you cannot see/or don't know then your parents/in front of the entire congregation.

 

[speculawyer]

Honestly, the Mormon faith fascinates me almost more so than any other religion. My undergrad was in Religious Studies and my Masters was in biblical studies so that may be a reason why. The Mormon faith (if we ignore Native Americans) is the first and only world religion that originated in the states.

You made Tom sad.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

You mad Tom sad.

Pic not showing... oh Tom Cruise and Scientology? Lol.

 

[Count Dookkake]

Happens in religion of Jehovah's Witnesses. The girl I was dating at the time was 'forced' to confess that we had done sexual stuff (everything but intercourse) to her parents in front of the elders (who were all male). Their response was to reprove her, removing all privileges she had in the Kingdom Hall.

Yeah, that's pretty disgusting and borders on sex abuse.

 

[speculawyer]

Happens in religion of Jehovah's Witnesses. The girl I was dating at the time was 'forced' to confess that we had done sexual stuff (everything but intercourse) to her parents in front of the elders (who were all male). Their response was to reprove her, removing all privileges she had in the Kingdom Hall. The backing is in the Bible (depending on your interpretation) which is why their are Catholic priests to confess your sins to. Obviously its different to confess a sin to someone you cannot see/or don't know then your parents/in front of the entire congregation.

WTF? I'm stunned.


What exactly are 'privileges she had in the Kingdom Hall'? Unless it is like a club where you get free drinks and massages, I don't think that is much of a loss.

BTW, Forced to confess? I think the word for that is torture. Perhaps Cajoled.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Yeah, that's pretty disgusting and borders on sex abuse.

Well... not sure if you were aware but when numbers of members/allegations are taken into consideration, the Jehovah's Witnesses arguably have a worse problem on their hands than the Roman Catholic Church. Dateline did a special on it a few years ago. The problem with the JW's are they hold the "two witnesses" thing as gospel, so unless there was another witness to the abuse besides the pedophile and his/her victim, the elders will not go forward with the claim. Many times they have pushed the alleged victim to not go forward to the police. They too have just sent the accuser on to another congregation.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

WTF? I'm stunned.


What exactly are 'privileges she had in the Kingdom Hall'? Unless it is like a club where you get free drinks and massages, I don't think that is much of a loss.

BTW, Forced to confess? I think the word for that is torture. Perhaps Cajoled.

The types of privileges are answering questions, giving talks, basically being able to converse with the fellow members. It was a 6 month punishment. In terms of it not being a loss, it is very much so when your entire family are members and your grandparents were on the cover of an 'Watchtower' magazine for having the ideal marriage.

 

[elrechazado]

Yeah, that's pretty disgusting and borders on sex abuse.

Do you think catholic confession borders on sex abuse? Serious question, but I doubt I'll get a non hyperbole serious answer.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Do you think catholic confession borders on sex abuse? Serious question, but I doubt I'll get a non hyperbole serious answer.

I would say that is different (obviously the question wasn't asked of me). The Catholic Church doesn't ask exactly what type of sin you committed but rather asks you to confess your sins. Asking is different than demanding. The Jehovah's Witnesses demand that their members confess their sin in detail.

 

[Count Dookkake]

Do you think catholic confession borders on sex abuse? Serious question, but I doubt I'll get a non hyperbole serious answer.

1) There are seemingly too many differences in the way both situations are handled for them to be considered the same. The JW version as it is practiced seems worse due to the public shaming aspect. However, bad Catholic priests take advantage of their access to kids, so I imagine the privacy of confession has its drawbacks, too.

2) Fuck you. Since when am I known as hyperbole guy?

EDIT- Just read your post below mine. You don't know what hyperbole means.

DOUBLE EDIT - Just realized that you engage in hyperbole while accusing me of it. :lol

 

[elrechazado]

I would say that is different (obviously the question wasn't asked of me). The Catholic Church doesn't ask exactly what type of sin you committed but rather asks you to confess your sins. Asking is different than demanding. The Jehovah's Witnesses demand that their members confess their sin in detail.

That might be concerning to me if the jehova's witnesses were a government agency, and not a society voluntarily joined that people can walk away from at will.

Again though, even if you don't like it, how does confession of sins amount to "sex abuse" under anything but a hyperbolic torture of the word that renders the real term meaningless? Might as well say it "borders on rape" and "borders on torture" too if we're being morons.

1) There are seemingly too many differences in the way both situations are handled for them to be considered the same. The JW version as it is practiced seems worse due to the public shaming aspect. However, bad Catholic priests take advantage of their access to kids, so I imagine the privacy of confession has its drawbacks, too.

2) Fuck you. Since when am I known as hyperbole guy?

2) :lol

 

[speculawyer]

The types of privileges are answering questions, giving talks, basically being able to converse with the fellow members. It was a 6 month punishment. In terms of it not being a loss, it is very much so when your entire family are members and your grandparents were on the cover of an 'Watchtower' magazine for having the ideal marriage.

Being on the cover of the 'Watchtower' magazine sounds like the real loss to me.

Hey . . . do the JW people ever go out door to door alone? I want to talk to the young guy that comes to my door but he always brings some frumpy old person. How am I supposed to spread my heresy when they are double-teaming me?

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Being on the cover of the 'Watchtower' magazine sounds like the real loss to me.

Hey . . . do the JW people ever go out door to door alone? I want to talk to the young guy that comes to my door but he always brings some frumpy old person. How am I supposed to spread my heresy when they are double-teaming me?

No, they always go in pairs; both for safety precautions and the example in the New Testament. I remember when I did that a few times while I was studying; man was I nervous and embarrassed. One thing that I learned in the last decade through my experience with the JW's and other congregation/denominations is that the regular folks who you see are usually the nice ones. Unfortunately they are the ones who get a rough time from those outside of the organization. Many times they are in the religion because their families have/are in, they simply enjoy the relationships, have recently overcome a hardship, or just believe what they are doing. It's the leadership that I have a problem with. The folks who have the power and the influence. Those are the ones who really bother me.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

No, they always go in pairs; both for safety precautions and the example in the New Testament. I remember when I did that a few times while I was studying; man was I nervous and embarrassed. One thing that I learned in the last decade through my experience with the JW's and other congregation/denominations is that the regular folks who you see are usually the nice ones. Unfortunately they are the ones who get a rough time from those outside of the organization. Many times they are in the religion because their families have/are in, they simply enjoy the relationships, have recently overcome a hardship, or just believe what they are doing. It's the leadership that I have a problem with. The folks who have the power and the influence. Those are the ones who really bother me.

Are JW's allowed to take literature from other religions? I ask because some dropped by my house when I was in high school and, being the diligent Mormon boy I was, offered them a Book of Mormon in exchange for their pamphlet or whatever. I didn't know who they were at the time, but they refused to take it, and told me to have a nice day as they promptly left.

Maybe it's just because they figured this house was a lost cause? :lol

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Are JW's allowed to take literature from other religions? I ask because some dropped by my house when I was in high school and, being the diligent Mormon boy I was, offered them a Book of Mormon in exchange for their pamphlet or whatever. I didn't know who they were at the time, but they refused to take it, and told me to have a nice day as they promptly left.

Maybe it's just because they figured this house was a lost cause? :lol

No, they will politely refuse. It's the same reason they (usually) will politely turn down accepting prayer from another person.

 

[speculawyer]

Are JW's allowed to take literature from other religions? I ask because some dropped by my house when I was in high school and, being the diligent Mormon boy I was, offered them a Book of Mormon in exchange for their pamphlet or whatever. I didn't know who they were at the time, but they refused to take it, and told me to have a nice day as they promptly left.

Maybe it's just because they figured this house was a lost cause? :lol

Hmm . . . maybe that is what I should do next. Offer them a copy of "The God Delusion".

I've got a couple copies of the Book of Mormon, so I could do that.

I'd like to try the Koran just to see how they would react, but I've only got one of those.
Got it from here.
http://www.freekoran.com/
Sign up and get your own free copy.

Interesting book . . . as I've said elsewhere, reading it makes me feel that Islam is a religion with small man's complex.

 

[Enojado]

I'm guessing more than a pic is wanted?

thanks for taking time to give details. i meant to come back and give details but other things came up.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Hmm . . . maybe that is what I should do next. Offer them a copy of "The God Delusion".

I've got a couple copies of the Book of Mormon, so I could do that.

I'd like to try the Koran just to see how they would react, but I've only got one of those.
Got it from here.
http://www.freekoran.com/
Sign up and get your own free copy.

Interesting book . . . as I've said elsewhere, reading it makes me feel that Islam is a religion with small man's complex.

Won't take it.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

I wish they taught Jung more in universities. If they did, everybody would look at that whole Mormon thing about space gods and say "yeah, okay, I get it." It's not really that weird and has an established psycho-spiritual basis at the end of the day.

The race stuff/master race underpinnings are the ugly part, and obviously symptomatic of the belief having been born out of a time and place where racial conflict was a violent and immediate cultural divide.

 

[bluemax]

I fear that my question will be lost on the last page...

A little of both. I saw so many people do their best to rationalize things to keep themselves from feeling guilty. Honestly this kind of stuff is one of the more ridiculous aspects of religion.

 

[ronito]

I fear that my question will be lost on the last page...

Sorry.

Here's the thing they don't go out and think "I'll keep the letter of the law NOT the spirit!" They are honestly convinced that what they're doing is helping them. Their view is I can't say "Damnit!" so I'll say "Dang it!" or "Fetch" or something else. They don't stop and think letter vs. spirit they think by saying "fudge" instead of a swear word they're keeping the spirit of the law.

Here's the thing and it's a bit ironic really. The mormon church is all about going out and "finding the truth for yourself" however, you'll have a hard time finding another church that tells its membership what it should and shouldn't do so much in volume or as often. So mormons are really caught up in rules instead of spirit vs letter and heaven forbid you find your own truth that's not in line with general consensus (see Jeff-DSA's posts in responses to mine for example). So as silly as it may seem for a guy to say "Fudge" instead of Damnit or to complain about the boobies in God of War and not mention anything about the violence, they honestly think they're doing themselves good.

 

[Hitokage]

Here's the thing and it's a bit ironic really. The mormon church is all about going out and "finding the truth for yourself" however, you'll have a hard time finding another church that tells its membership what it should and shouldn't do so much in volume or as often.

You are encouraged to find the answer for yourself, but there is only one correct answer. It's similar to the church's corruption of "free will" into "free agency", which is free will at gunpoint.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Oh Google

 

[ronito]

this wasn't thread worthy but I did think it was interesting:

http://www.fox12idaho.com/Global/story.asp?S=11790937

SALT LAKE CITY (AP) - The Mormon church has bought about 13 acres of real estate in downtown Salt Lake City.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints bought a 10-acre block directly north of the Little America Hotel and another 2- to 3-acre parcel directly north of the Grand America Hotel. The parcels are across from each other on either side of Salt Lake City's Main Street.

The land was owned by The Sinclair Companies, which are controlled by oil magnate and billionaire Earl Holding. Holding also owns both the Little America and Grand America hotels.

Church spokesman Scott Trotter confirmed Thursday that the purchase was made by its Property Reserve Inc. He says the land is a long-term investment and there are no immediate plans for development.

The price paid was not disclosed.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Yup. When one begins looking at the different business ventures that the LDS Church has a stake in, it is mind boggling: newspapers, television studios, real estate, etc.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I'm guessing more than a pic is wanted?

They're called garments, and are part of the temple ritual. When you go through the temple for the first time you get them. It's a symbol of the ceremonies done there and have masonic symbols on it (like most things in the temple ritual).

At the risk of a tangent, the temple ceremonies are the reason I'm at home right now and my wife and kids are at church. Really the writing was on the wall when I got my endowment before our wedding, as that was one of the most fucked up experiences I've ever had. It's when I started really questioning the church and what led directly to my eventually backing out completely.

Just an intensely strange, almost traumatizing experience that I refused to ever go through again.

 

[ronito]

At the risk of a tangent, the temple ceremonies are the reason I'm at home right now and my wife and kids are at church. Really the writing was on the wall when I got my endowment before our wedding, as that was one of the most fucked up experiences I've ever had. It's when I started really questioning the church and what led directly to my eventually backing out completely.

Just an intensely strange, almost traumatizing experience that I refused to ever go through again.

you're not alone. More and more when I see young people going through the temple the first time I always hear their elders saying something like "Now, make sure you don't freak out."

I'll admit I was seriously freaked out as well.

I've got several friends who refuse to go back. But hold temple recommends.