Mormons (Frontline American Experience PBS)

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CDProp

Member
levious said:
genetically, no, but inferior race yes... that's not a hard concept to find in old mormon doctrine.

I'm not trying to defend the LDS church. Racism was rife, no doubt, just as it was elsewhere in the country in the early years. As Mormons constantly remind us, LDS leaders are not infallible. They're a product of their time, and they sin. I have no doubt that many of them considered black people to be an inferior race, although the official rationale for the ban really had nothing to do with that.

Still, I agree with the general criticism, that someone who claims to personally communicate with the Almighty should probably know better, as it would be quite easy for God to put a stop to all of the injustice brought on by racism through revelation. The fact that the LDS Church was allowed to continue on for over a century with such a huge moral blindspot puts a lot of doubts in my mind.
 

FlyinJ

Douchebag. Yes, me.
CDProp said:
Sooo many misconceptions in one sentence. Black people and Native Americans were always allowed in the church, and the church has always had black and Native American members. Up until 1978, black people were not allowed to hold the Priesthood, which is a special ordinance in the church. But they could still be members. And as far as I'm aware, African Americans (edit: I mean Native Americans) were never banned from the Priesthood. And the rationale for the ban against black people had absolutely nothing to do with them being "genetically inferior beings" (for chrissakes, the ban was put into effect decades before Mendel came along; I'd like to see the primary source for someone from the 1840's calling black people 'genetically inferior' lol).

Bad? Perhaps, but there's no need to spread rumors that inflate how bad it was.

Right, not "genetically inferior". They were considered "cursed" sub-humans that occupied the American continent. Inferior to pure Mormons/whites. So, it was based on complete speculation and superstition... and continued to permeate the ideals of the entire church organization for a century. And you dismiss this as "Bad? Perhaps..."?

And yes, Native Americans were -definitely- not allowed into the Priesthood. They were considered "devils" by the church.

The inertia of the Mormon belief system was a moral justification of Manifest Destiny. Whites were moving west, and it was their god-given right. What better religion to slot into this movement than one that purported the American continent to be the lost Garden of Eden overrun by inferior beings?
 

CDProp

Member
FlyinJ, lol

It's true that they were considered 'cursed', but sub-human? You added that part yourself. Again, I'm not an apologist for the LDS church (I'm an apostate, actually) and I welcome criticism of the LDS church, but these embellishments that you add (e.g. 'sub-human', 'devils') are really easy to debunk, and thus do nothing but provide Mormon apologists with easy targets that, when hit, throw your credibility into question.

Also, you are wrong about the Priesthood ban being applied to Native Americans:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_...f_Latter-day_Saints#Racial_restriction_policy

The racial restriction policy was applied to black Africans, persons of black African descent, and any one with mixed race that included any black African ancestry. The policy was not applied to Native Americans, Hispanics, Melanesians or Polynesians.
 

Borgnine

MBA in pussy licensing and rights management
Shapingo said:
Story of Mormonism in Cartoon form (not south park)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE

LOL this is awesome. I love it when Lucifer is like "um yeah hey what do you guys think of me being the savior on Earth?" and Jesus is all:

jh8thk.gif
 

Javaman

Member
CharlieDigital said:
I worked with Mormons who refused to drink coffee or tea but downed Mountain Dew and Diet Coke in 96oz super-fucking-mega gulps.

I don't get it either.

Also, with the cursing: they would use terms like "fudge" or other such substitutes. But my question is what's the point? Doesn't this mean that you had the same intent (cursing) and performed a mental substitution of the words (so basically, you still cursed in your head). See what I'm getting at?

That's almost my Mormon parents to a "tea". They don't/can't drink coffee or iced tea, but Coca-cola and Pepsi is fine. Mountain dew is walking the line. Very strange.
 
Thanks for the link. It's very interesting so far. Has anyone noticed at whenever there is a new religion, the people go on a forced-exodus?
 

SUPREME1

Banned
Shapingo said:
Story of Mormonism in Cartoon form (not south park)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE


That was a f*ck awesome video!

I just had a co-worker come to my office and watch it. We had a good LULZ moment.



On a personal level: My good buddy from childhood, top 3 friend all time, who is mixed (black/white) married a girl who is hispanic and is a Mormon. Her family never had an issue with his race and they seem to be really cool people. They have 4 kids now, dude is a potent brotha. :D He's in show business and can afford to have a big family.

I was actually asked by him to join their basketball team (church league) a few years back. I befriend several of the players and as far as I know, from the experience, Mormons are a great bunch of people. Intelligent, humble, kind.

They never once tried pushing their beliefs on me either, which was something I was dreading before deciding to join their b-ball team.


Anyway, fantastic video. I knew most of their history, but not their core beliefs.
 

SUPREME1

Banned
Meus Renaissance said:
Thanks for the link. It's very interesting so far. Has anyone noticed at whenever there is a new religion, the people go on a forced-exodus?


Confirmation that Scientology is NOT a religion!

Case closed. Cult status in full effect.
 

btkadams

Member
Javaman said:
That's almost my Mormon parents to a "tea". They don't/can't drink coffee or iced tea, but Coca-cola and Pepsi is fine. Mountain dew is walking the line. Very strange.
can someone please explain this to me? my mormon friend drinks pop and energy drinks all the time. i don't understand how that is ok.
 
btkadams said:
can someone please explain this to me? my mormon friend drinks pop and energy drinks all the time. i don't understand how that is ok.
Mormon theology prohibits coffee and tea, alcohol and cigarrettes. It is a popular misconception that they therefore prohibit caffeine, which they do not. Mystery solved.

People who don't know mormons assume that "you can't drink coffee so therefore mormons are not allowed to drink caffeine" and voila, an apparent contradiction is born that never existed.

That's how a buddy explained it to me at least, and every person I've met since then has basically confirmed this.
 

SUPREME1

Banned
elrechazao said:
Mormon theology prohibits coffee and tea, alcohol and cigarrettes. It is a popular misconception that they therefore prohibit caffeine, which they do not. Mystery solved.

People who don't know mormons assume that "you can't drink coffee so therefore mormons are not allowed to drink caffeine" and voila, an apparent contradiction is born that never existed.

That's how a buddy explained it to me at least, and every person I've met since then has basically confirmed this.


Not quite.

It's another 'letter of the law' vs 'spirit of the law' situation.


Coffee andf Tea were banned as stimulants. They didn't know what 'caffeine' was, or they would have banned that. If coke and mountain dew were around then, they too would be banned.

Since coffee and tea were banned specifically by name, modern day mormons have their loophole.

So yeah, they can say it's a misunderstanding, but it's also not too hard to understand the spirit behind the ban.
 
ImperialConquest said:
Not quite.

It's another 'letter of the law' vs 'spirit of the law' situation.


Coffee andf Tea were banned as stimulants. They didn't know what 'caffeine' was, or they would have banned that. If coke and mountain dew were around then, they too would be banned.

Since coffee and tea were banned specifically by name, modern day mormons have their loophole.

So yeah, they can say it's a misunderstanding, but it's also not too hard to understand the spirit behind the ban.
Mormons believe in continued messages from god through their leaders, there are no "loopholes". If mormon leaders wanted to ban caffeine they could.
 

SUPREME1

Banned
elrechazao said:
Mormons believe in continued messages from god through their leaders, there are no "loopholes". If mormon leaders wanted to ban caffeine they could.


It'd be too inconvenient at this time. You're right in that they could whatever they wanted to do, but that doesn't mean they would.

Some things are best left alone.



My point stands as to why there is a ban on coffee and tea, and why there is a lack of one for caffiene in general.
 
Wow this looks really interesting. Going to watch pretty soon. I just started watching Big Love recently and don't really know much about Mormons so this might help my appreciation of that show and learn something too.
 

ronito

Member
it's funny I've been really sick lately and people at work said "You're getting paler by the day." I replied, "I"m mormon, that just means I'm getting more righteous by the day."

I had to do some explaining but we laughed and laughed.
 
Wormdundee said:
I've been thinking about this for a bit now. What exactly separates cults from religions? I know there's a difference but I'm not totally sure what it is. Is it something to do with the leader of the cult being deified in a way, or something else?
Both the words religion and cult are derived from the Greek 'cultis' (sp?) I suppose one could conclude that all religions are cults and all cults are religions. Cults are broken in to segments though. For example, you have cargo-cults which mandate that all members rid themselves of material goods.
 
Colonel Mustard said:
Both the words religion and cult are derived from the Greek 'cultis' (sp?) I suppose one could conclude that all religions are cults and all cults are religions. Cults are broken in to segments though. For example, you have cargo-cults which mandate that all members rid themselves of material goods.

I think you are talking about something that is not a cargo cult.
 

Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
FlyinJ said:
What's even cuter and more amusing is that the Mormon church considered all black and native american people to be genetically inferior "beings" and wouldn't allow them into the church until the 1970s.

What is -actually- funny about that is, as soon as they dropped this restriction, black and native american people actually joined the church!

I mean, it's one of the core bases that the religion was founded on- native americans were the cast-outs of heaven that occupied a sort of "purgatory" that was the American continent. Black people were also grouped into this category.

I just want to know who was lined up waiting to join a religion that is based on the hatred and extermination of your race....

Not exactly 100% true.. according to Young not Smith blacks and other dark skinned people were cursed..

[A]ny man having one drop of the seed of [Cain] … in him cannot hold the priesthood and if no other Prophet ever spake it before I will say it now in the name of Jesus Christ….
 
Count Dookkake said:
I think you are talking about something that is not a cargo cult.
Oh shit, yeah. Cargo cults bank all their stuff for general use by everyone. I can't remember the term for the type I mentioned. :lol
 

Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
ImperialConquest said:
I was actually asked by him to join their basketball team (church league) a few years back. I befriend several of the players and as far as I know, from the experience, Mormons are a great bunch of people. Intelligent, humble, kind.

They never once tried pushing their beliefs on me either, which was something I was dreading before deciding to join their b-ball team.

I played in their b-ball league as well.. had some issues on court that I wouldn't think I would have had but all in all it was pretty awesome
 

bluemax

Banned
ronito said:
fairly accurate, I remember it made some mormons mad when it came out. But still accurate.
I remember the church putting out a huge statement on it at the time. If I wasn't on my phone I'd dig it out.
 

LCGeek

formerly sane
MrHicks said:
this almost rivals scientology in the "LOLWUT" factor
compared to scientology it still sounds pretty sane though

Is that logically possible. Measuring insanity, really and I'm the one with the tag. How does one quantify one insane thought to another they are equally as illogical no matter the size of the bullshit or perceptions being presented.
 

JayDub

Member
I know a shitload of Mormons; what about them freak some of you out? Although I might not believe in what they believe in, their beliefs led them to be VERY wonderful people.
 

bluemax

Banned
jason10mm said:
I've worked with many, many Mormons (the Air Force must recruit heavily in Utah) and almost to a man, they were upstanding, intelligent, and great folks. I'm always amazed at these deeper stories about their religion, though I suppose almost every religion has a fairly implausible origin story to it.

I still find it amusing that up till the 1960's or whatever it was still technically legal to kill a Mormon in some state (Idaho, Indiana?).

On a side note, should the zombie apocalypse ever occur, your nearby Mormon community would be a FANTASTIC place to run, those guys take self preparedness VERY seriously.
Missouri. They put that in place because the Mormon militia had too much power or something. I forget the details now.
 

bluemax

Banned
Blackace said:
I played in their b-ball league as well.. had some issues on court that I wouldn't think I would have had but all in all it was pretty awesome
Yeah LDS hoops leagues are notorious for their rowdiness and violence.
 

bluemax

Banned
Hitokage said:
First of all, the c-word opens a huge semantic can of worms whenever it is used, so arguing about whether this or that group is one or not is kinda pointless without nailing that down first. To make things extremely brief I'll introduce "destructive cult" which has the defining element of deception. Considering the "milk before meat" policy and how temple endowments are treated, then there is a case to be made.

Anyway, there's a difference between church members taking things too seriously and leadership telling members to take it too seriously. Now, obviously there is room in how much people actually try to follow what's told to them in General Conference (and quite frankly members like yourself who think to push back aren't looked kindly upon), but the preferred direction is clear.
Yeah endowments are wacky as shit. Reading up on how they've made them less creepy and weird is interesting.

Also the way they push the mission and the way people who opt not to go on a "voluntary" mission always got to me. Lots of other shit annoyed me the more I thought about it.
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
MrHicks said:
this almost rivals scientology in the "LOLWUT" factor
compared to scientology it still sounds pretty sane though

i think how insane a religion seems has to do with how current its creators are. i cant wait to see the first popular post-internet religion.
 

LCGeek

formerly sane
Number 2 said:
i think how insane a religion seems has to do with how current its creators are. i cant wait to see the first popular post-internet religion.


Fractalism my kind will see it fully manifest in 7777 years within on this planet completely for now take on the lovely folks spawning the 2012 agenda.
 
D

Deleted member 1159

Unconfirmed Member
Where's the usual Mormon defense force? There hasn't been much nitpicking over minutia yet!

As for the Frontlines video: I remember watching this soon after I "came out" (about my apostasy) to my parents and discussing it with my dad. I think the anti-Mormon crowd was upset this wasn't scathing enough, while my dad and others I talked to thought it was too negative and dwelled too long on the Mountain Meadows massacre. So if both sides were pissed off, I think it was probably spot on.
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
LCGeek said:
Fractalism my kind will see it fully manifest in 7777 years within on this planet completely for now take on the lovely folks spawning the 2012 agenda.
Do you have any brochures or literature?
 

hellclerk

Everything is tsundere to me
Alright, I should probably admit my prejudice. As far as I'm concerned, Mormons are a bunch of heretic cultists (though that's really more because I'm Orthodox Catholic. Basically anyone protestant of any type is a heretic to me). This continues on with the cult label. Keep in mind, I keep a broad definition of cult as well. A cult is any group, religious or otherwise, that believes only the ones in the cult can be "saved" or some other similar concept, excluding outside figures, and erasing any doubt of such beliefs from their minds. As a Catholic, I believe that everyone can be saved, but I'm always doubtful and always uncertain of whether I'll be saved or not (This is a primary feature of Catholicism within Christianity, so It's not like this is anything new). The way that they seem to go through life seems very Stepford Wives-ish, so it kind of bugs me to an extent.

That said, I have no problem with Mormons on an individual basis. They're generally great people with little to hate. It's just their theology is utter hogwash to me and honestly creeps me out a bit. Though they probably feel the same way about my theology :p
 
D

Deleted member 1159

Unconfirmed Member
I think "Whore of the Earth" is their oldskool name for the Catholic church
 

Toby

Member
Zoso said:
I don't know a whole lot about Mormons, but a friend of mine did buy me the "Mormons Exposed" calendar featuring Mormon men posing without their shirts. Not really sure what the purpose is. It was a strange gift for sure.
Ha ha, ya those are funny. What is messed up is that the guy that made that had his degree from BYU revoked because the church excommunicated him. I don't know how that guy thought he wouldn't be excommunicated, but I still think it's messed up that they can take your degree away after earning it.

I was actually thinking about getting my buddy Thaed the Mormon Muffins one. Thought he would get a kick out of it.
 

LCGeek

formerly sane
Number 2 said:
Do you have any brochures or literature?

Nah just philosophy but it's already out there if you want to know it. I'm not the first of my kind or the last.
 

Dipper145

Member
doomed1 said:
I keep a broad definition of cult as well. A cult is any group, religious or otherwise, that believes only the ones in the cult can be "saved" or some other similar concept, excluding outside figures, and erasing any doubt of such beliefs from their minds.
That's not a very broad definition of a cult, it seems pretty strict.

A broad definition would be calling any sort of system of religious beliefs/practice. I would consider Catholicism as much a cult as Mormonism.

I find all religions to be pretty strange. However, I do find Mormonism more strange than Catholicism.

I don't have a problem with anyone following any beliefs they choose to have. Although I do have problems with how religion is forced upon young children at a young age.
 

oxrock

Gravity is a myth, the Earth SUCKS!
Very informative video.I must admit to have been ignorant of Mormonism before watching but now feel that I at least have a basic understanding of the religion. I'm not a very religious man myself but I find religion in general fascinating.I'm guessing "Mormon Jesus" is the deluxe model or something :D
 

ronito

Member
oxrock said:
Very informative video.I must admit to have been ignorant of Mormonism before watching but now feel that I at least have a basic understanding of the religion. I'm not a very religious man myself but I find religion in general fascinating.I'm guessing "Mormon Jesus" is the deluxe model or something :D
he's just a variation you know like "soft jazz Jesus."

Really, it's just a scare tactic by evangelicals to prove that mormons don't believe in the same jesus everyone else does.

That video really is like Fox news I've wanted to sit down and write the fallacies/truths in it. Maybe I will, who knows...But until I do don't believe his lies.
 

gerg

Member
Out of curiosity, how does someone justify following the "letter of the law" but not the "spirit of the law"? Doing so sincerely seems to involve either some complex mental gymnastics (doublethink comes to mind) or not thinking about the meaning of the law in its entirety.
 

ronito

Member
Shapingo said:
Story of Mormonism in Cartoon form (not south park)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE
So to sorta sort out stuff between this and Maher:

Mormons believe Indians came from Middle East: True. However, their argument is that civilization was mostly wiped out (and it is in the Book of Mormon) so they'll make the argument of, of course there's no DNA they were destroyed. That and the section of civilization was so small and remote they just haven't found it 'yet".

Brigham Young and Race mixing: True. In fact even in some circles my wife and I get comments (I'm latino and she's white) like "Such a shame she couldn't find a white boy." Or nasty looks and stuff. Once I got "Aren't you so lucky that in heaven you'll both be white?" from an old white lady.

Trillions of planets by countless gods? Not really doctrine. Conjecture at best. Yes the church does teach that there are trillions of planets (yay!) and it does teach that Jesus created the earth. And it also did espouse the teachings that there could be other gods. Now putting all that together you COULD get to realization that there could be tons of gods for tons of worlds. But it's not fomally doctrine or something the church espouses oficially anymore.

Elohim born as a man There's a couplet that says "As man is God once was, as God is man can be." That's really about as far as official church doctrine goes. And even the last prophet Gordon B. Hinckley said on Larry King live that he "didn't know" if it was true.

God has a body: Very true. A basic pillar of mormonism.

God has many wives on Kolob Again conjecture. There is one scripture where it says God lives on planet close to Kolob. The scriptures don't talk much about a female godess. But the early church used to teach that a man could only get into heaven if he had many wives. So therefore one could conjecture that God has multiple wives. However, the church no longer believes in polygamy and hasn't for 1890 (at least on paper) and 1904 when they said "No we really mean it." So if you ask a modern mormon about this they'll be shocked and say it isn't true. If you asked a mormon back in the days of polygamy, it's possible they'd agree.

Celestial sex: Again sounds hawt but there's nothing in mormon doctrine about having sex to make spirit children, it just says that there are spirit children. It's conjecture (but not entirely out of place) that this would happen through "celestial sex".

Head of Mormon gods called a council: Half-true. it is taught there was a council and there was one god there.

Lucifer Jesus's brother and 1/3 that followed him: Yeah of course Lucifer and Jesus are brothers. Didn't God create both? If not then who created him? As to the 1/3 that followed him to become demons that's also true, though officially it's taught they never had bodies so they're just evil spirits.

Less valiant = dark skin: Sadly true. Prominent Apostle McConkie believed this through and through and this was even written in the first few editions of "Mormon Doctrine" which is a staple in mormon teaching. After the whole allowing the blacks the priesthood the church had this section removed and McConkie was famously quoted as saying "Throw everything that I or anyone else ever said about this away. We were speaking with an imperfect understanding."

Valiant people were born mormon Certainly I heard this up and down until the late nineties after that the church has sorta backed away from this.

White and delightsome Very true. In fact some apostles still teach that as the african and latino races get more righteous they're getting lighter in complexion.

God came was Adam: Brigham Young was adamant about this and taught that if you didn't believe that God was Adam you'd go to hell. After he died however the church abandoned this teaching.

Elohim came in human form to impregnate Mary: Absolutely false. Mormon teachings about this is similar to catholic and other christian denominations.

Jesus had multiple wives: First off, it's not remarkable to think that Jesus was married they called him rabbi and rabbis were typically married. But mormon belief is that Jesus set the example for us, in getting baptized going to the temple, praying and such, so it makes sense he'd get married as that's required to get to the highest degree of heaven. As to multiple wives, well that's of course been backed off from since polygamy was disavowed. There's actually no "Offical" teaching about Jesus' wife(wives). Most mormons will just reply they don't know.

Joseph Smith saying he was a descendant of Jesus Yeah, he said a lot of crazy stuff. Technically he said he was a descendant of Joseph sold into Egypt, and the bible says Jesus descended from him so...

Jesus came to the Americas: True. Basic mormon teaching.

Dark skinned people killed all the light skinned people and gold plates: all true

all christian creeds were an abomination True, mormonism teaches that only the mormon church has the "whole" truth.

Standing judgement before Joseph Smith, Jesus and Elohim: Joseph and Brigham both taught that they and others would be "sentitnels" or guards that you had to pass on the way to heaven, but final judgement was supposed to be between Jesus and Elohim.

Polygamist Gods: It is true that to get into the celestial kingdom you must be married in the temple, the polygamist part of it has of course been removed. Mormons no longer believe that.

Joseph smith said he did more than any other man including jesus chirst for man's salvation.: No, it was Brigham Young that said that.

Mormons can become gods: This used to be a central belief of the mormon church, but since Hinkley the church as backed off from this teaching.
 
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