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[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Whoa. This statement has no basis in reality. The reason why Japan's suicide rate is high is primarily due to culture reasons surrounding the use of psychological aid. It's a lost of status to go to a psychologist and ask for help. And it would be wrong to ignore that the increase availability of guns is directly proportional to the suicide rate.

The point is they don't need guns to accomplish the goal they set out to do.

Putting more guns in peoples hands doesn't solve problems. Its just the other person dead.

You seem to be saying that if everyone had a gun we'd all be good.

No I asked you if those who follow DC gun control laws are safer because of those laws. I didn't say they had to carry or own anything.

Current usage still follows the original intent. Shooting a target isn't some radical fucking departure from the original intent. In fact most people call it practicing. Do you know what the term practicing means?

The logic just struck me as rather Scalia like that's all. It also precludes lots of target shooters who only do that and don't carry/use weapons for self defense or hunting uses.

Why wouldn't you? Most of the good and none of the bad.

Because I'm a responsible and law abiding citizen. Shooting a laser or air rifle is pretty different than shooting an actual rimfire or centerfire gun.

 

[Dark Octave]

What gun is press of a button or flip of a switch? Crank of a handle makes more sense. What experience with firearms do you have?

It's a figure of speech. You think I'm dumb enough to not understand that a gun has a trigger? C'mon man, quit trying to turn this into something other than the silly thing you said on the other page. And yes, I shoot and actually like guns. I just think they are too dangerous for the general public to obtain so easily or even at all.

 

[el retorno]

Because unless you force the debate, it's never appropriate to discuss gun control until after the next incident of mass gun violence and then the clock resets.

This is the biggest problem. Its always too soon. Which turns into never. Because if there are no major stories they're is no problem. But if there is a shooting is not the time, people are grieving.

 

[Dr. Pangloss]

Homicide and suicide account for 25% of deaths for those 1 - 24 years of age; 17% for those 25 - 44 years of age. Not all of this is gun violence, but they play a big part.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db99.pdf

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Those sports are about practicing to kill other people. The first link even says as much

The point was about the nature of shooting competitions and firearms used, not the goal of them.

Because unless you force the debate, it's never appropriate to discuss gun control until after the next incident of mass gun violence and then the clock resets.

More like people with a political agenda want to stand on some corpses to try and ram their views down the public's throat.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Homicide and suicide account for 25% of deaths for those 1 - 24 years of age; 17% for those 25 - 44 years of age. Not all of this is gun violence, but they play a big part.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db99.pdf

How many of those are between gang members? The problem is a lot of criminal on criminal violence occurs that tends to effect no one but other criminals.

However, I'd argue that without knowing how much is homicides caused by guns, it's hard to make full use of the data.

 

[el retorno]

No I asked you if those who follow DC gun control laws are safer because of those laws. I didn't say they had to carry or own anything.

I don't think they're any less safer. How many of them do you think would really be stopped by "self-defense." And aren't many of the crimes there criminal on criminal (gangs and the like) which would just change the victim and not really reduce the number of criminals.

 

[el retorno]

More like people with a political agenda want to stand on some corpses to try and ram their views down the public's throat.

Because their political agenda is to stop the next one. Its directly related. Its not like their using a gun shooting to push their tax policy.

I think we definitely need new laws, just not bans. The Fast and Furious incident showed just how ill-equipped the legal system is to track and prosecute major straw purchasers, and how the power structure of agencies like the ATF is open to terrifyingly potent misinformation campaigns (look into the case, it isnt at all what politicians still claim it is). Internet purchases, gun show exceptions, I think all that needs to change. If the two major proponents for gun ownership revolve around hobbiysts and people who are worried about a random incident of violence during which they will be glad to have protection, putting out new laws requiring longer waiting periods and intense training programs shouldn't harm or trample the rights of anybody desiring a firearm for either of those purposes.

Great point

 

[Dr. Pangloss]

The point is they don't need guns to accomplish the goal they set out to do.

Maybe that was your point, but the way you were arguing was without taking cultural norms into context. I'm sure if firearms were more widely available in Japan that they would have a higher suicide rate. Or do you dispute the argument that guns make it easier to commit suicide?

 

[RDreamer]

The logic just struck me as rather Scalia like that's all. It also precludes lots of target shooters who only do that and don't carry/use weapons for self defense or hunting uses.

Yeah, I'm not a very "original intent" sort of person. I do realize that these things have got a life of their own in the hobbies of the American people. I'm sensitive to that. I grew up around hunters. At the same time I still think the real purpose is to commit harm upon a target. Because some people only do that to a paper target shouldn't obfuscate the intent of the weapon.

Because I'm a responsible and law abiding citizen. Shooting a laser or air rifle is pretty different than shooting an actual rimfire or centerfire gun.

It is now, but what if technology were to change that in the future? That's one thing I wonder about. Would some gun owners give up the lethality of their hobby if things like air rifles and laser rifles became nearly indistinguishable?

And the "because i'm a responsible and law abiding citizen" isn't a great response. Again, there are things that we've deemed too lethal for even law abiding citizens to have, because at some point they may no longer be a law abiding citizen. The shooter in this story has (as far as we know) only run into the law on occasions of traffic violations. In most eyes he was a law abiding citizen. Does that mean he should have access to things so lethal that they allow him to kill multiple people in a matter of minutes? I don't know. I realize that may be a slippery slope to some people, but I do think we need to sit down and have a conversation about it. I realize we all have access to other lethal things, like you said a car. Well, the utility of that far outweighs the lethality of it. And every day we make steps to make those things even less lethal. And we give people classes and tests before they're allowed to take them out. And we restrict what speed they can go under penalty of the law, etc.

More like people with a political agenda want to stand on some corpses to try and ram their views down the public's throat.

Man, it's not a freaking political agenda to want to prevent more people from dying. The fact that you see that as political is telling...

 

[Hoo-doo]

Because I'm a responsible and law abiding citizen. Shooting a laser or air rifle is pretty different than shooting an actual rimfire or centerfire gun.

Many criminals were at one point in their lives responsible and law abiding citizens. Right until they weren't.

Or do you believe every criminal was born evil?

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I think we definitely need new laws, just not bans. The Fast and Furious incident showed just how ill-equipped the legal system is to track and prosecute major straw purchasers

Well there was kind of a reason for that...

Internet purchases,

Still need to be transferred to an FFL unless you have a C&R licence and the gun is a C&R and handguns still need a FFL to ship them.

gun show exceptions, I

The gun show exception myth is with regards to private transfers or after waiting for an approval past a certain amount of days. Hell in PA I can sell an AK-74 or AR-15 to another PA resident as long as I don't know they're a prohibited person. No bill of sale, transfer or anything.

think all that needs to change. If the two major proponents for gun ownership revolve around hobbiysts and people who are worried about a random incident of violence during which they will be glad to have protection,

Except criminals don't follow the laws in the first place. Much like how Gun Free Zone do not tend to deter mass shooters.

putting out new laws requiring longer waiting periods

Have never been shown to have any effect on reducing crime, just to make it harder for people to buy guns and work towards a soft ban on guns.

 

[David Incorporated Esq.]

Seriously it's not worth the time to respond to any of Manos' posts. Just don't do it.

 

[Daydream Sequence]

Stop shitting up this thread with gun talk. There were many banned for doing so in the Colorado thread. There's threads dedicated to it.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Many criminals were at one point in their lives responsible and law abiding citizens. Right until they weren't.

Or do you believe every criminal was born evil?

And many of them are prohibited from owning guns before they committed there latest crime. You do know about the concept of "the prohibited person" in US law, right?

Because their political agenda is to stop the next one. Its directly related. Its not like their using a gun shooting to push their tax policy.

No, but often it's been used to push racist polices in this country.

Maybe that was your point, but the way you were arguing was without taking cultural norms into context. I'm sure if firearms were more widely available in Japan that they would have a higher suicide rate. Or do you dispute the argument that guns make it easier to commit suicide?

I would think a train is a lot easier. Bullets can be very odd and do curve around the skull among other things. It isn't a promise of a quick death either.

Man, it's not a freaking political agenda to want to prevent more people from dying. The fact that you see that as political is telling...

Well I just look at the history of gun control as it has been applied to African American's in this country and statements by gun control advocates who want guns entirely banned as seeing it as more than just claiming they want to prevent deaths.

 

[Dr. Pangloss]

I would think a train is a lot easier. Bullets can be very odd and do curve around the skull among other things. It isn't a promise of a quick death either.

Doesn't matter your prefer method of suicide. We aren't arguing causation. I'm glad you agree that there is a correlation between gun ownership in a society and its suicide rate when taking cultural norms into context.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

So you think the way things are works just fine? I mean, of course we can cite various statistics (it's more dangerous for a family to own a pool than a gun in terms of their family being injured or killed for example), but if there is room for improvement, and I believe there is, it should be dealt with.

If there are gaps in the background checks (say it misses mental health) or fine tuning (more databases added to help cover mental health prohibitions) needed, then I really have no issues with valid things in that area, but as someone who has bought/sold and owned/used/stored firearms, there are already a ton of laws on the books. I think the question is in fine tuning and enforcement (and possibly less laws), not in new laws.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Doesn't matter your prefer method of suicide. We aren't arguing causation. I'm glad you agree that there is a correlation between gun ownership in a society and its suicide rate when taking cultural norms into context.

The problem I have is that if you look at the highest rates, most are places with restrictions on gun ownership. I mean the US is 41 on the list and the locations are varied. Hence why I feel guns are tool no different than other ones people might use to kill themselves. I mean Austria and France are higher than the US, and gun ownership is not easy in either country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

 

[LegendofJoe]

I hate our culture's love affair with violence. It's a damn disease if you ask me.

 

[Daydream Sequence]

The problem I have is that if you look at the highest rates, most are places with restrictions on gun ownership. I mean the US is 41 on the list and the locations are varied. Hence why I feel guns are tool no different than other ones people might use to kill themselves. I mean Austria and France are higher than the US, and gun ownership is not easy in either country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

You're in a thread about the deaths at a Sikh holy place. Take your fucking gun love into another thread. Show some damn respect.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

You're in a thread about the deaths at a Sikh holy place. Take your fucking gun love into another thread. Show some damn respect.

So others can discuss banning guns...but others can't disagree with that?

 

[Daydream Sequence]

So others can discuss banning guns...but others can't disagree with that?

Disagree with it all you want in one of the threads dedicated to guns. Don't shit up this thread with it.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Disagree with it all you want in one of the threads dedicated to guns. Don't shit up this thread with it.

So you're saying that shouldn't be in the thread either, correct?

 

[SniperHunter]

I'm sure this has already been posted but I just read that the officer who put down the shooter was hit 8-9 times, and waved on responders to help others first when they arrived.

Pretty goddamn incredible.

Simply amazing!! The police force in America is surely one of the best. The detectives as well! I really enjoy the A&E show, "The first 48"

 

[Daydream Sequence]

I'm sure this has already been posted but I just read that the officer who put down the shooter was hit 8-9 times, and waved on responders to help others first when they arrived.

Pretty goddamn incredible.

Yeah, he's still in critical condition apparently. Hopefully he pulls through.

 

[cousins]

I'm sure this has already been posted but I just read that the officer who put down the shooter was hit 8-9 times, and waved on responders to help others first when they arrived.

Pretty goddamn incredible.

A hero

 

[RDreamer]

I'm sure this has already been posted but I just read that the officer who put down the shooter was hit 8-9 times, and waved on responders to help others first when they arrived.

Pretty goddamn incredible.

That officer didn't put down the shooter. A separate officer did.

The rest is still incredible, that he waved them on to get to the temple, and that he took that many shots and is still alive.

 

[Arrowgigantic]

Quit acting retarded. I'm refering to the fact that it makes it more difficult for a normal citizen like my self to get access to guns.

Not guns, handguns. And only if you consider a half-hour drive "more difficult".

 

[Steelrain]

I'm sure this has already been posted but I just read that the officer who put down the shooter was hit 8-9 times, and waved on responders to help others first when they arrived.

Pretty goddamn incredible.

Goddamn he's a hero.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Because unless you force the debate, it's never appropriate to discuss gun control until after the next incident of mass gun violence and then the clock resets.

 

[RDreamer]

Ah, that article listed him as the first responder, and I recalled an early report on Reddit that the shooter was taken down by the first officer on the scene. I'm sure the story is clearer now, I just haven't followed it since shortly after it happened.

I believe he was one of the first responders, yes, but he wasn't the one to take the guy down. During the press conference they cleared things up a bit. That officer was shot away from a few of the others. They then got into a firefight with the guy again, and only realized the first officer was down after doing some sort of check.

I knew it wasn't the same guy ahead of time, because a friend of mine knows all the Oak Creek policemen, and his father was on the scene. I thought it was the same guy, too, but he corrected me, and then I saw the same thing reported later.

 

[Daydream Sequence]

Ah, that article listed him as the first responder, and I recalled an early report on Reddit that the shooter was taken down by the first officer on the scene. I'm sure the story is clearer now, I just haven't followed it since shortly after it happened.

Immediate impression given by police was that the officer who was shot also did the shooting. It quickly was clarified to say that the officer who was shot was tending to victims when he got ambushed by the shooter. Another officer at the scene then took down the murderer.

 

[RDreamer]

Apparently they're searching for another guy who was suspicious on the scene. He had tattoos and was taking pictures of the scene and acting weird.

 

[RDreamer]

Probably some dude in the shooter's shitty band. Were they racist tattoos? He could just be some guy who lives in the neighborhood and has a bunch of bad tribal tattoos or something.

He had a 9/11 tattoo. There's a video of the guy on jsonline's main page

 

[Bombadil]

Than why is Japans suicide rate so high? Last I checked they dont have lots of insta death machines available.

False equivalency, Manos.

 

[SniperHunter]

Pic of the officer who got shot 8 times while engaging the suspect. He is 51 years old...glad he made it.

Full story here
http://fox6now.com/2012/08/06/51-year-old-oak-creek-police-officer-recovering-following-shooting/

 

[cheststrongwell]

He had a 9/11 tattoo. There's a video of the guy on jsonline's main page

Man, it would suck to be a high profile person of interest. Probably some goober that lives down the street.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

Pic of the officer who got shot 8 times while engaging the suspect. He is 51 years old...glad he made it.

Full story here
http://fox6now.com/2012/08/06/51-year-old-oak-creek-police-officer-recovering-following-shooting/

Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiet, I'd shit my pants if that dude scowled at me like that after putting 9 bullets in him. He looks like that scowl should have stopped the bullet in the air.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

I'm sure this has already been posted but I just read that the officer who put down the shooter was hit 8-9 times, and waved on responders to help others first when they arrived.

Pretty goddamn incredible.

That's a bad bad man right there..amazing. For every asshole out there, you got a dude like this who steps up and takes the call.

Thanks for giving the info..the pro/anti gun turds are REALLY FUCKING ANNOYING! Bad enough none of the same news folks that wouldn't stop showing every little thing about the Colorado shooting aren't really saying much..come in here for info, instead I'm seeing THIS crap. Make a separate thread already..

 

[everyday math]

Have family in Oak Creek. Freaked me out when I got home from work hearing about this.

But to the people directly effected by this, my thoughts and prayers are with them.

Why can't we all just get along?

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

 

[vas_a_morir]

The temple's leader died after directly confronting the shooter, likely with a knife, causing him to bleed and possibly slowing him down.

We can all only hope that we can summon the courage to behave similarly as many of those present during this incident. There's a surprising amount of uplifting news coming out of this. Much more good than evil on display.

I respectfully disagree. There is a reason why they tell you not to do stuff like this: He's dead, and all it accomplished was 'possibly slowing him down.' I respect his courage, but we'll never know if it was the right decision.

EDIT: Nevermind, I misread. Sorry!

 

[CHEEZMO™]

:|

 

[Dram]

Am I reading that right? Fox viewers found this inspiring?

 

[RustyNails]

Am I reading that right? Fox viewers found this inspiring?

Culture.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Am I reading that right? Fox viewers found this inspiring?

Does the story talk about the officer refusing care after being shot 8 times, so that victims could be treated first?

 

[Steelrain]

Does the story talk about the officer refusing care after being shot 8 times, so that victims could be treated first?

It goes into it but it says "Scary" instead of "Inspiring" now.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

It goes into it but it says "Scary" instead of "Inspiring" now.

Hmm..then again I have no clue how the site's weird ass story feeling system works.

 

[enzo_gt]

As a Sikh, this hits home. Sad to see a place of peace turned into a shooting gallery. Kudos to the hero of a cop who risked his life for the safety of people and took that many shots in the process.

I just wanted to clear up a misconception I came across in this thread.

The shooter is a probably a Sikh.

I work with a Sikh, who lives in a community full of Sikhs (Brampton), an he says religious disputes at temples can occasionally get fairly heated. Every year or two around there someone goes absolutely nuts at a temple and stabs a bunch of people.

As a Sikh living in Brampton, this is absolutely NOT true. The only case of such a Sikh stabbing was in Quebec a few years ago and that was just a kid who used his Kirpan when he should not have. It was a one time thing, an again not in a Gurdwara. Never does anyone just go crazy and on a stabbing rampage. This is not a common occurrence.

At most there are heated verbal and legal exchanges between some heads of Gurdwaras and their governing body (forget what it's called) that is basically a whole bunch of corrupt people shaming the community by scamming money out of the people. That's predominantly why when me and my family go to the Gurdwara we bring supplies for Langar (free lunch/dinner served to the people who come to the Gurdwara) instead of lots of money. But that's another story.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

Hmm..then again I have no clue how the site's weird ass story feeling system works.

It's just another way for them to go out of their way to tell people how they should feel.

Very awesome about that one officer. It sounds like there were a lot of brave people there who helped and are helping.