• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

My attempt at an Evolution thread! OhgodwhatamIdoing.

Status
Not open for further replies.

ianp622

Member
DragonGirl said:
Experiments with chimps have shone only one behavior that we have that they don't seem to that might have made all the difference. We purposely teach our young and each other while they apparently learn purely by observation. That may be the one trait, combined with a lucky collection of physical attributes, that allowed us to accelerate into a civilized species.

Chimps may not do that, but dolphins do:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8121399/

I think the problem with dolphins is their body, which doesn't allow them to easily manipulate objects and requires them to be underwater, which prevents the formation of most tools. Otherwise they'd probably be pretty close to us.
 
ianp622 said:
Chimps may not do that, but dolphins do:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8121399/

I think the problem with dolphins is their body, which doesn't allow them to easily manipulate objects and requires them to be underwater, which prevents the formation of most tools. Otherwise they'd probably be pretty close to us.


As I said, "combined with a lucky collection of physical attributes". It's not our brains that allowed us to conquer the world. It was our thumbs (and our wrists, actually)
 

ianp622

Member
DragonGirl said:
As I said, "combined with a lucky collection of physical attributes". It's not our brains that allowed us to conquer the world. It was our thumbs (and our wrists, actually)

Ok, I thought you were thinking of it as a unique trait even though you said "combined", as if it was the combination that was unique.
 

MrHicks

Banned
ianp622 said:
Chimps may not do that, but dolphins do:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8121399/

I think the problem with dolphins is their body, which doesn't allow them to easily manipulate objects and requires them to be underwater, which prevents the formation of most tools. Otherwise they'd probably be pretty close to us.

i'm pretty convinced that dolphins are 2nd only to humans in intelligence at this point
sorry chimps

truly amazing creatures
the fact that they get hunted in some regions of the world makes me puke
i don't think chimpanzee or gorilla hunting is legal anywhere in the world

dolphin hunting apparently is in some regions
fucking japan for one

theres this movie called "the cove"
if you have any remote sense of empathy do not watch it or you'll be wrecked
 

Shito

Member
Really great topic here, with even a few cool-headed and civil discussions going on: thanks GAF!

Just a tangent, though...

JesseZao said:
Discovering the origin of life is key to understanding the purpose of life. If we really just evolved from amoebas, certainly there is no purpose in life.
Science doesn't care about understanding the purpose of life ; philosophy does.
The only thing science can tell you about this matter is that for any life the only "purpose" is to reproduce, and simply that. For the rest you'll have to turn to religion, or philosophy, and in the myriad of different explanations you'll find understand that maybe science already found all there was to it.
If you want a more personal answer, I'd say I'm quite fond of Sartre's philosophy, where man is but freedom (in the sens that he has to define his own essence), which leads him to anguish. It probably won't be what you want to hear, though, but good thing is: it is compatible with amoebae! ^^

Sorry for going a little bit astray there.
 

Meesh

Member
OuterWorldVoice said:
Atheism is more likely to emerge from knowledge than be the default state for a lack of knowledge. And demonstrably contrary to your point, most religions are formed first out of ignorance in an attempt to explain the universe in irrational terms. Science attempts to explain the universe in rational terms, with more useful and practical results.
Which religions are you referring to? I ask because "most" is incredibly vague considering the topic. Religions main focus is not explaining the universe so much as it is explaining our origins, where we started as humans and where we're going. What our purpose is. Science won't tell you what our purpose is, only that we came to be because x=y. That's why religion is still considered to be a power in it's own right, it gives us purpose. Admittedly, there is a lot of information to suggest an evolution took place (or is taking place), but it's equally fair to suggest that some life was designed to adapt to change while others were allowed to die when our ecosystem couldn't sustain them. When I think about it...a man struggles to maintain his household, can't successfully lead a country, doesn't support his neighbouring countries to satisfaction, and allows the $ to dictate the health and future of our planet... and claims on top of it to know how we came to be. I dunno, I can't help thinking sometimes that we come off a little arrogant. I guess I still have some doubts...to a degree...

"The gaps in the record are real, however. The absence of any record of any important branching is quite phenomenal. Species are usually static, or nearly so, for long periods, species seldom and genera never show evolution into new species or genera but replacement or one by another, and change is more or less abrupt." Beyond Natural Selection, 1991
You already know that one, old as Moses, suggesting that while it appears many species have direct ancestors, it doesn't neccessarily mean they are. They might be, or they might not be links in evolution. It's been pretty obvious I've come from the old school, and it's also quite possible some things have been misquoted to me.

Now though...while I've started to read up on evolution, I realize that within the scientific group evolution is considered a fact by what sounds like a wide margin, the only real discussion is how it took place, not if. So while my heart is telling me something "more" is at work because of the many miracles of life in all it's detail...my mind is telling me to read on, there are newer debates. There's more in the mechanics of evolution to be discussed or imagined...more controversy even(?) than there ever will be in the "if".

Edit: Thanks for putting up with me.
 
DragonGirl said:
As I said, "combined with a lucky collection of physical attributes". It's not our brains that allowed us to conquer the world. It was our thumbs (and our wrists, actually)

Bacteria conquered the world a long time ago, and they still own it.
 

grumble

Member
Evilink said:

Science has come up with our purpose. It's biological replication. As for why life exists, it's random chance and a combination of lucky variables. Life doesn't have any miracles but it has plenty of awesome things, some of which we just don't understand yet. From what we can tell, evolution is determined without supernatural influence.

I understand religion and the attraction it holds. Many people want to feel special and important, and want to be told that there is some kind of meaning to their life and a future after death (instead of the apparent reality of oblivion). They also crave a set of rules to live by. The fact that it doesn't make any sense is irrelevant in the face of those desires. That there is a reason why religion exists does not mean that it should really continue to exist. In the end, like the tooth fairy or Santa Claus, it's a childish fantasy and we owe it to our species to grow up and face the real world head on.
 
grumble said:
Science has come up with our purpose. It's biological replication. As for why life exists, it's random chance and a combination of lucky variables. Life doesn't have any miracles but it has plenty of awesome things, some of which we just don't understand yet. From what we can tell, evolution is determined without supernatural influence.

I understand religion and the attraction it holds. Many people want to feel special and important, and want to be told that there is some kind of meaning to their life and a future after death (instead of the apparent reality of oblivion). They also crave a set of rules to live by. The fact that it doesn't make any sense is irrelevant in the face of those desires. That there is a reason why religion exists does not mean that it should really continue to exist. In the end, like the tooth fairy or Santa Claus, it's a childish fantasy and we owe it to our species to grow up and face the real world head on.

My personal "theory" (read: complete guess) is that religion is an evolutionary mechanism. People in the past were selected for their religious beliefs because they were more productive and less likely to despair in the face of how crappy life seems. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that there's something in the modern human brain that makes it believe in religion.
 

Nocebo

Member
Evilink said:
Religions main focus is not explaining the universe so much as it is explaining our origins, where we started as humans and where we're going. What our purpose is.
What is our purpose?
 
BananaBomb said:
My personal "theory" (read: complete guess) is that religion is an evolutionary mechanism. People in the past were selected for their religious beliefs because they were more productive and less likely to despair in the face of how crappy life seems. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that there's something in the modern human brain that makes it believe in religion.
Yep.
 
grumble said:
Science has come up with our purpose. It's biological replication. As for why life exists, it's random chance and a combination of lucky variables. Life doesn't have any miracles but it has plenty of awesome things, some of which we just don't understand yet. From what we can tell, evolution is determined without supernatural influence.

:lol That's it folks, close the books. Mr. All-Knowing here knows the meaning of life. We'll ignore even the simple concepts and mysteries behind the Big Bang for example, and just stop here at looking for purpose. :lol

I love people like you, throwing around absolutes regarding complete unknowns.

grumble said:
I understand religion and the attraction it holds. Many people want to feel special and important, and want to be told that there is some kind of meaning to their life and a future after death (instead of the apparent reality of oblivion). They also crave a set of rules to live by. The fact that it doesn't make any sense is irrelevant in the face of those desires. That there is a reason why religion exists does not mean that it should really continue to exist. In the end, like the tooth fairy or Santa Claus, it's a childish fantasy and we owe it to our species to grow up and face the real world head on.

Huh, that's pretty strange. I don't personally know any religious people who are religious for those reasons :/. Maybe it's because I don't hang around the super evangelicals? Most people with faith that I know are actually involved heavily in various scientific fields and are far from believers in santa claus, etc. The throne you feel like your sitting on is nothing but a stool.

Also again, congrats on figuring everything out, or at least thinking you have. Whatever makes you comfortable in your world, right? Just like the religious keeping themselves comfortable with their "tooth fairy" stuff or whatever you said, as well. You just use false confidence instead.

BananaBomb said:
My personal "theory" (read: complete guess) is that religion is an evolutionary mechanism. People in the past were selected for their religious beliefs because they were more productive and less likely to despair in the face of how crappy life seems. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that there's something in the modern human brain that makes it believe in religion.

People like to ignore that hope and mystery (and faith) have helped drive forward humanity's progress in the past. Nowadays is a different story, though. And a militant atheist will argue until their face turns blue against the past Pagan influence on today's structure and society.
 

Meesh

Member
Nocebo said:
What is our purpose?
Depends on your religious beliefs, not all are the same. If you're not religious, congrats, you automatically know everything ;p
grumble said:
Universe explained.
Thanks for the"stuff", though I don't recall belittling you...I was simply making a comment about my own persopnal discovery. Can't a guy share without being talked down to?
 

Salazar

Member
FunkyMunkey said:
And a militant atheist will argue until their face turns blue against the past Pagan influence on today's structure and society.

Give an example of such an argument being made. I'm puzzled.
 

MrSerrels

Member
I see where you're coming from Funky Munkey – a lot of Social Psychologists believe that religion is the only reason that civilization actually came into being – mostly through the cynical use of it by corrupt leaders, but it is a powerful means of bringing people together under a single cause.

I don't think Atheists, although I guess I'm speaking for myself here, would argue against that theory.
 
Salazar said:
Give an example of such an argument being made. I'm puzzled.

A specific one? I've been on GAF through many discussions regarding moral, ethical, and direct influences on today's world, and although it differs heavily depending on what part of the world you live in, people here have argued against it as if the past/present are tainted or something. These are usually the same people who go on to say that faith has absolutely no place in the modern world, also. I'm not personally partial either way but it's just something that bugs me.

And I can't recall a specific at this time, it's late and my eyes are barely open. It probably invalidates what I'm saying a bit but that's my luck.

MrSerrels said:
I see where you're coming from Funky Munkey – a lot of Social Psychologists believe that religion is the only reason that civilization actually came into being – mostly through the cynical use of it by corrupt leaders, but it is a powerful means of bringing people together under a single cause.

I don't think Atheists, although I guess I'm speaking for myself here, would argue against that theory.

Very true. I was just elaborating on the fairy tale and holiday mascot comparisons. I understand raining down on religion and where it comes from, but sometimes it goes past a logical point.

edit: And I know I'm being a hypocrite by criticizing the religious discussion before and then jumping in :p. I'm glad people are being civil though. I love seeing the different viewpoints (minus the absolutes).
 

Nocebo

Member
Evilink said:
Depends on your religious beliefs, not all are the same. If you're not religious, congrats, you automatically know everything ;p
That's not a real answer to my question. Let me rephrase then. What do you think is our purpose and how did you come by this knowledge?
 

Tntnnbltn

Member
BananaBomb said:
My personal "theory" (read: complete guess) is that religion is an evolutionary mechanism. People in the past were selected for their religious beliefs because they were more productive and less likely to despair in the face of how crappy life seems. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that there's something in the modern human brain that makes it believe in religion.
I made like a whole post about this on the previous page. :-/
 

jaxword

Member
You know what's funny? An antibody against HIV has naturally developed in a human.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...od=WSJ_hpp_LEFTTopStories#articleTabs=article

This is actually we can see evolution in action. Change over time. As in, over time, this man's genes would have spread whereas HIV weak ones would die off.

There is no argument anymore. You can ACTUALLY SEE EVOLUTION HAPPEN TODAY.

Anyone who disagrees with this is, quite honestly, deluded or uneducated. Or IS educated and is dishonestly playing politics instead, which is worse.
 

Lesath

Member
jaxword said:
You know what's funny? An antibody against HIV has naturally developed in a human.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...od=WSJ_hpp_LEFTTopStories#articleTabs=article

This is actually we can see evolution in action. Change over time. As in, over time, this man's genes would have spread whereas HIV weak ones would die off.

There is no argument anymore. You can ACTUALLY SEE EVOLUTION HAPPEN TODAY.

Anyone who disagrees with this is, quite honestly, deluded or uneducated. Or IS educated and is dishonestly playing politics instead, which is worse.

You do know that the guy they found this in is gay, right?
 

jaxword

Member
Lesath said:
You do know that the guy they found this in is gay, right?

Yes, though that in itself does not technically prevent him from impregnating anyone, and really, getting into the myriad of psychology and chemistry behind sexual preferences is a another topic in itself.

And I hope no one TRIES to blow up the homosexual angle. I already heard an argument elsewhere how this proves homosexuality is evil in God's eyes--if this guy was straight, then his offspring would've had the immunity and we'd have known earlier and thus God wanted to prove a point to the world.

I didn't really have a response to that as it was too depressing to consider that type of mindset.
 
Imagine what the eRliest humans, I mean the first of our kind able to think and reason like us... Do you think they understood where they came from?' like they had some sense of ancestry but no way to express or document it?
 

Lesath

Member
jaxword said:
Yes, though that in itself does not technically prevent him from impregnating anyone, and really, getting into the myriad of psychology and chemistry behind sexual preferences is a another topic in itself.

And I hope no one TRIES to blow up the homosexual angle. I already heard an argument elsewhere how this proves homosexuality is evil in God's eyes--if this guy was straight, then his offspring would've had the immunity and we'd have known earlier and thus God wanted to prove a point to the world.

I didn't really have a response to that as it was too depressing to consider that type of mindset.

I was trying to point out the irony in using a man who is not sexually interested in a partner that could produce offspring as an example of evolution in action. Sometimes, even the most fit get "unlucky" and fail to reproduce. Really, I was trying to be more funny than critical.

You're right, though. It is still likely that close relatives would have had similar genes, and the yet probable that those genes would predominate over time within that population.

Anyway, if you want to get overly technical, the man isn't a case of evolution (individuals do not evolve), but rather likely a case of a beneficial mutation. In reality, diseases such as cystic fibrosis and sickle cell anemia do much better to illustrate how natural selection influenced the evolution of certain populations.
 

Nocebo

Member
innervision961 said:
Imagine what the eRliest humans, I mean the first of our kind able to think and reason like us... Do you think they understood where they came from?' like they had some sense of ancestry but no way to express or document it?
I wonder what they thought about diseases, rotting teeth, broken bones, the animals around them, video games, death, drinking water out of a stream, pooping, social hyrachies etc.
 

Mario

Sidhe / PikPok
Another interesting and easy to digest series of videos, covering a range of evolution topics, not sure if they have been linked yet. Might be useful to link in the OP with direct links for all the individual vids as they are trying to answer seperate questions in each video?

http://www.youtube.com/user/Best0fScience#g/c/D0A39ADD948FECE4

includes

Facts Of Evolution: Universal Common Descent
Does The Evidence Support Evolution?
Vitamin C And Common Ancestry
Human Evolution: Are We Descended From Viruses?
Does The Fossil Record Support Evolution?
Origin And Evolution Of Life
The First Humans
Evolution Of Modern Humans
Charles Darwin And The Tree Of Life - Sir David Attenborough
The Human Genome
The DNA Instruction Manual
Genetic Disorders And Diseases
Pandora's Box Of Genetics
The Origin Of Life: Chemistry + Biology = Abiogenesis
The Complexity Of Life
The Missing Link: Ida (darwinius masillae) - Our Common Ancestor?
The Missing Link: Most Complete Fossil In Primate Evolution
The Messel Pit
How Fast Is Evolution?
Facts Of Evolution: The Molecules Of Life


There are a few extra videos that aren't under the PlayList though

Mechanisms Of Evolution: How Does Variety Arise? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mPCqYxB4d4
Evolution: Where are the Transitional Forms? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfTbrHg8KGQ
Facts of Evolution: Speciation and Extinction http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5kumHLiK4A
Facts of Evolution: Retroviruses and Pseudogenes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZvTmgCk1Lo
Facts of Evolution: Good Design, Bad Design http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Mtr3Cum74A
 

jaxword

Member
Lesath said:
You're right, though. It is still likely that close relatives would have had similar genes, and the yet probable that those genes would predominate over time within that population.

Anyway, if you want to get overly technical, the man isn't a case of evolution (individuals do not evolve), but rather likely a case of a beneficial mutation. In reality, diseases such as cystic fibrosis and sickle cell anemia do much better to illustrate how natural selection influenced the evolution of certain populations.

That is correct. A person does not evolve, but you and I both know the term is wildly misused. In its simplest form, it means "change over time."

A generation of Pokemon-raised kids have this strange idea that evolution means a spontaneous generation (ha) on its own, like limbs sprouting.


If HIV was not being controlled by mechanical means such as condoms, isolation, etc., the human species would be ravaged by it. This man (and his related genes) would spread, slowly, over generation after generation. We'd lose many, then regrow. That's how our species wins their wars against viruses over the past millions of years. That's why I brought this guy up as an example; he and his like would be the originator for the stronger genes. We would see evolution FROM this moment onwads, though the aforementioned mechanical controls have skewed the process.
 

Raist

Banned
jaxword said:
You know what's funny? An antibody against HIV has naturally developed in a human.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...od=WSJ_hpp_LEFTTopStories#articleTabs=article

This is actually we can see evolution in action. Change over time. As in, over time, this man's genes would have spread whereas HIV weak ones would die off.

There is no argument anymore. You can ACTUALLY SEE EVOLUTION HAPPEN TODAY.

Anyone who disagrees with this is, quite honestly, deluded or uneducated. Or IS educated and is dishonestly playing politics instead, which is worse.

Well that's not really evolution per se, just basic immunology. Which is, of course, the result of evolution. But that kind of stuff isn't a proof that evolution is going on before our very eyes.
 

jaxword

Member
Raist said:
Well that's not really evolution per se, just basic immunology. Which is, of course, the result of evolution. But that kind of stuff isn't a proof that evolution is going on before our very eyes.

As I said above, it's a start. Sort of like the first brick in a building. Over time, you know it'll be a building eventually, you've seen it done many times. It really depends on whether or not you can see things long term versus only short term. If you cannot conceive of things longer than, say, your own lifespan, then of course this development would mean little in terms of evolution. If, however, you can understand how we've progressed on the level of a species, millennia after millennia, then this is pretty significant.

So if someone comes up to you and says "Well, I just can't see how laying down a brick can lead to a building" then yes, there's clearly some misunderstanding going on.
 

Raist

Banned
jaxword said:
As I said above, it's a start. Sort of like the first brick in a building. Over time, you know it'll be a building eventually, you've seen it done many times. It really depends on whether or not you can see things long term versus only short term. If you cannot conceive of things longer than, say, your own lifespan, then of course this development would mean little in terms of evolution. If, however, you can understand how we've progressed on the level of a species, millennia after millennia, then this is pretty significant.

So if someone comes up to you and says "Well, I just can't see how laying down a brick can lead to a building" then yes, there's clearly some misunderstanding going on.

Yes, but my problem (that I should have clarified) is that in this case, there is no chance that this gene would be passed on.

Antibodies genes are quite complex. They have evolved in such a way that while everyone has the same "basic" genes (minus polymorphisms of course), an extremely important property is that the regions of the antibody that make most of their function is actually randomly generated and absolutely not to be found anywhere in the genome. So this kind of "super-antibodies" are actually generated "by chance" and cannot be transmitted. I checked in one of their previous papers about a strong -but less potent- antibody and what makes it special is this exact region. I wouldn't know for the latest one as it is not published yet, but I'm fairly sure it's exactly the same.

A better example for this would be that (off the top of my head) around 10% of Europeans are quite resistant to HIV because they have a particular HLA allele (which do not work like antibodies genes, as they are 100% originating from the genome). Now I am not sure this percentage has increased significantly over the last decades, because HIV does not induce a strong selection pressure (because of how it works and also because of treatments).

If you think about it, that's quite ironical. No one would argue that we should drop treatments and medical research altogether of course, but from an evolutionary point of view, we are basically accelerating pathogens' evolution while slowing down ours, because we strenghten selection pressure on these organisms and reduce it on ourselves.
 

Boozeroony

Gold Member
Only read the OP. Great thread and I will read this in the coming days. I will contribute later this week, as evolution is one of the most complex, but beautiful of concepts.

A small remark on the OP: Refrain from using "Junk DNA". It is not scientifically correct to use it nowadays.
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
Mario said:
Another interesting and easy to digest series of videos, covering a range of evolution topics, not sure if they have been linked yet. Might be useful to link in the OP with direct links for all the individual vids as they are trying to answer seperate questions in each video?

http://www.youtube.com/user/Best0fScience#g/c/D0A39ADD948FECE4

includes

Facts Of Evolution: Universal Common Descent
Does The Evidence Support Evolution?
Vitamin C And Common Ancestry
Human Evolution: Are We Descended From Viruses?
Does The Fossil Record Support Evolution?
Origin And Evolution Of Life
The First Humans
Evolution Of Modern Humans
Charles Darwin And The Tree Of Life - Sir David Attenborough
The Human Genome
The DNA Instruction Manual
Genetic Disorders And Diseases
Pandora's Box Of Genetics
The Origin Of Life: Chemistry + Biology = Abiogenesis
The Complexity Of Life
The Missing Link: Ida (darwinius masillae) - Our Common Ancestor?
The Missing Link: Most Complete Fossil In Primate Evolution
The Messel Pit
How Fast Is Evolution?
Facts Of Evolution: The Molecules Of Life


There are a few extra videos that aren't under the PlayList though

Mechanisms Of Evolution: How Does Variety Arise? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mPCqYxB4d4
Evolution: Where are the Transitional Forms? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfTbrHg8KGQ
Facts of Evolution: Speciation and Extinction http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5kumHLiK4A
Facts of Evolution: Retroviruses and Pseudogenes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZvTmgCk1Lo
Facts of Evolution: Good Design, Bad Design http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Mtr3Cum74A

You're killing me here Mario! I've actually been too busy to even check up on my thread the last day and a half, now you give me a bajillion highly useful videos to post in the OP. Give me till the end of Saturday, I should have a plethora of updates in the OP by then :p.


Boozeroony said:
Only read the OP. Great thread and I will read this in the coming days. I will contribute later this week, as evolution is one of the most complex, but beautiful of concepts.

A small remark on the OP: Refrain from using "Junk DNA". It is not scientifically correct to use it nowadays.

I did actually read in the last few days that what we believed to be junk DNA may actually have purposes previously unknown, so I'll make a mental note.
 

Dever

Banned
Nocebo said:
That's not a real answer to my question. Let me rephrase then. What do you think is our purpose and how did you come by this knowledge?

We create our own purpose. While we have evolved to be efficient at reproducing, the word purpose doesn't apply because a process like evolution is incapable of giving us "purpose" in the sense you're talking about. And even if there were a God with some purpose in mind for us, it'd be up to you to accept that purpose as your own.
 

Nert

Member
I recently read a great book on the subject of religion as an early evolutionary mechanism: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003B3NVZY/?tag=neogaf0e-20

Here is a brief summary/recommendation of the book from The Economist: http://www.economist.com/node/15124974

WHEREVER their investigations lead, all analysts of religion begin somewhere. And in the final lines of his densely but skilfully packed account of faith from the viewpoint of evolutionary biology, Nicholas Wade recalls the place where he first felt sanctity: Eton College chapel.

The “beauty of holiness” in a British private school is a far cry from the sort of religion that later came to interest him as a science journalist at Nature magazine and then the New York Times. To examine the roots of religion, he says, it is important to look at human beginnings. The customs of hunter-gatherer peoples who survived into modern times give an idea of religion’s first forms: the ecstasy of dusk-to-dawn tribal dances, for example.

Charles Darwin, whose idea of the sacred also came from an English private school, witnessed religion at its most primordial when he went to Australia in 1836. He found it horrifying: “nearly naked figures, viewed by the light of blazing fires, all moving in hideous harmony…”

Whatever Darwin’s personal sensibilities, Mr Wade is convinced that a Darwinian approach offers the key to understanding religion. In other words, he sides with those who think man’s propensity for religion has some adaptive function. According to this view, faith would not have persisted over thousands of generations if it had not helped the human race to survive. Among evolutionary biologists, this idea is contested. Critics of religion, like Richard Dawkins and Steven Pinker, suggest that faith is a useless (or worse) by-product of other human characteristics.

And that controversy leads to another one. Does Darwinian selection take place at the level only of individuals, or of groups as well? As Mr Wade makes clear, the notion of religion as an “adaptive” phenomenon makes better sense if one accepts the idea of group selection. Groups which practised religion effectively and enjoyed its benefits were likely to prevail over those which lacked these advantages.

Of course, the picture is muddied by the vast changes that religion went through in the journey from tribal dancing to Anglican hymns. The advent of settled, agricultural societies, at least 10,000 years ago, led to a new division of labour, in which priestly castes tried to monopolise access to the divine, and the authorities sought to control sacred ecstasy.

Still, the modifications that religion has undergone should not, in Mr Wade’s view, distract from the study of faith’s basic functions. In what way, then, does religion enhance a group’s survival? Above all, by promoting moral rules and cementing cohesion, in a way that makes people ready to sacrifice themselves for the group and to deal ruthlessly with outsiders. These arguments are well made. Mr Wade has a clear mind and limpid prose style which guides the reader almost effortlessly through 200 years of intellectual history. Perhaps, though, he oversimplifies the link between morality, in the sense of obedience to rules, and group solidarity based on common participation in ecstatic rites.

All religion is concerned in varying degrees with metaphysical ideas, moral norms and mystical experience. But in the great religions, the moral and the mystical have often been in tension. The more a religion stresses ecstasy, the less it seems hidebound by rules—especially rules of public behaviour, as opposed to purely religious norms. And religious movements (from the “Deuteronomists” of ancient Israel to the English Puritans) that emphasise moral norms tend to eschew the ecstatic.

Max Weber, one of the fathers of religious sociology, contrasted the transcendental feelings enjoyed by Catholic mass-goers with the Protestant obsession with behaviour. In Imperial Russia, Peter the Great tried to pull the Russian Orthodox church from the former extreme to the latter: to curb its love of rite and mystery and make it more of a moral agency like the Lutheran churches of northern Europe. He failed. Russians liked things mystical, and they didn’t like being told what to do.

As well as giving an elegant summary of modern thinking about religion, Mr Wade also offers a brief, provocative history of monotheism. He endorses the radical view that the story of the Jews’ flight from Egypt is myth, rather than history. He sympathises with daring ideas about Islam’s beginnings: so daring that many of its proponents work under false names. In their view, Islam is more likely to have emerged from dissident Christian sects in the Levant than to have “burst out of Arabia”, as the Muslim version of sacred history teaches.

At times, the book stumbles. In describing the interplay between Hellenic and Hebrew culture at the dawning of Christianity, Mr Wade makes exaggerated claims. He says there is no basis for a mother-and-child cult in the religion of Israel. In fact there are many references in the Hebrew scriptures to the Messiah and his mother; the Dead Sea Scrolls have made this even clearer. And his micro-history of Christian theology is inaccurate in places.

These objections aside, this is a masterly book. It lays the basis for a rich dialogue between biology, social science and religious history. It also helps explain a quest for collective ecstasy that can take myriad forms. Perhaps his brief autobiographical reference to Eton should have noted the bonding effect not only of chapel, but also of songs like “Jolly Boating Weather”.

(I apologize for the long quote, but I wanted to ensure that non-subscribers could see it as well)
 
Trent Strong said:
Bacteria conquered the world a long time ago, and they still own it.

No kidding . I'm talking about technology and the likelihood that we're now influential enough on the world's environments to be classified as an extinction event.
 

Mgoblue201

Won't stop picking the right nation
Bananakin said:
I don't know about anyone else, but my biggest trouble with understanding evolution was never regarding how one mammal could evolve into another, say. I have no problem believing that a human and a mouse shared a common ancestor: the homologous structures that we share make it pretty easy to visualize how that could be the case. And that's pretty much how it is for me with all reasonably complex animals: fish, birds, reptiles, etc. With the complexity already there (internal organs, body systems, appendages, whatever) evolution has plenty to work with (so to speak), and it just doesn't seem much of a stretch for one species to drift into another. The trouble for me was always in how such complexity came to be in the first place (and I shouldn't say trouble - I accept evolution completely, of course). I just mean that some things are just less obvious or intuitive than others, like: how did multicellular life come to be? How did sexual reproduction start? How did the first internal organs develop? Or the cardiovascular system? Obviously these kinds of questions have been answered by biologists, but most people just aren't informed to that level. And of course, some things like that probably have fairly complex explanations. My main point here is just that, I wonder if people seeking to explain evolution to doubters would be better served focusing on the "early" stages of evolution - ie, painting a sort of timeline of how life made each of its jumps in complexity: from unicellular to multicellular to invertebrates to vertebrates, or whatever it is. That, I think, is the larger disconnect that more intelligent doubters of evolution might be seeing: not between monkey and man, but between amoeba and arthropod. After all, it's the complexity of life around us that is the key reason so many people are unable to accept evolution.
In light of a recent blog post by Jerry Coyne that highlights a new science paper, I wanted to revisit this post to explore the evolution of multi-cellular organisms. In the paper scientists compared two organisms that are a part of the same class: one is single-celled, and the other is multi-cellular. The intention was to try to uncover the genetic differences between the two:

The authors’ conclusion? Not many new genes have to change to turn a single cell into a multicellular, proto-differentiated species. In the Science news piece on this article, plant biologist Arthur Grossman comments: “The findings suggest that it doesn’t take very large changes in gene content to transition from a single-cell to a multicellular lifestyle.”

Unfortunately, they didn't actually study the types of differences present in the genes. However, Coyne made an interesting conclusion.

It seems, then, that at least this critical step in the original of multicellular species may require not wholesale changes in the types of genes in the genome, but a few critical tweaks in how those genes are expressed.

This seems to be true of many genes. This New York Times article talks about how many new traits actually just involve reshuffling or rewiring old genes. So it's only half correct to think of a feature as new. Many evolutionary innovations are just plays upon old genetic warehouses of information.
 

curls

Wake up Sheeple, your boring insistence that Obama is not a lizardman from Atlantis is wearing on my patience 💤
FunkyMunkey said:
I love people like you, throwing around absolutes regarding complete unknowns.

Why? His statement is sound.
 
Mystic Theurge said:
How is our purpose reproduction?
You know that funny feeling you get in your pants when you see a girl? It's your brain's way of telling you to impregnate her.

You can't be seriously asking about a fundamental biological imperative.
 
Kano On The Phone said:
You know that funny feeling you get in your pants when you see a girl? It's your brain's way of telling you to impregnate her.

You can't be seriously asking about a fundamental biological imperative.

My brain might be telling me to impregnate her but that doesn't mean it's my purpose.
 

curls

Wake up Sheeple, your boring insistence that Obama is not a lizardman from Atlantis is wearing on my patience 💤
Mystic Theurge said:
My brain might be telling me to impregnate her but that doesn't mean it's my purpose.

YES IT IS - NOW DO IT!
 

danwarb

Member
Mystic Theurge said:
How is our purpose reproduction?
Life is a self-replicating molecule, evolution is descent with modification and natural selection. We are, after billions of years, what a group of molecules happen to do on their way to successfully reproducing; but since we've wonderful minds of our own now, we can define our own purpose while we're not getting busy.
 

JesseZao

Member
jaxword said:
You know what's funny? An antibody against HIV has naturally developed in a human.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...od=WSJ_hpp_LEFTTopStories#articleTabs=article

This is actually we can see evolution in action. Change over time. As in, over time, this man's genes would have spread whereas HIV weak ones would die off.

There is no argument anymore. You can ACTUALLY SEE EVOLUTION HAPPEN TODAY.

Anyone who disagrees with this is, quite honestly, deluded or uneducated. Or IS educated and is dishonestly playing politics instead, which is worse.

:lol
 
Mystic Theurge said:
How is our purpose reproduction?
How isn't it?

What's the purpose of a Luna Moth's life? The poor thing has no mouth, lives for about one week, and doesn't do anything but find another moth and fuck it.

I've always wondered what it is that makes people wonder what their big purpose is, like we all are here for some greater goal. Like miscarried babies have a grand purpose.
 

grumble

Member
FunkyMunkey said:
:lol That's it folks, close the books. Mr. All-Knowing here knows the meaning of life. We'll ignore even the simple concepts and mysteries behind the Big Bang for example, and just stop here at looking for purpose. :lol

I love people like you, throwing around absolutes regarding complete unknowns.


Huh, that's pretty strange. I don't personally know any religious people who are religious for those reasons :/. Maybe it's because I don't hang around the super evangelicals? Most people with faith that I know are actually involved heavily in various scientific fields and are far from believers in santa claus, etc. The throne you feel like your sitting on is nothing but a stool.

Also again, congrats on figuring everything out, or at least thinking you have. Whatever makes you comfortable in your world, right? Just like the religious keeping themselves comfortable with their "tooth fairy" stuff or whatever you said, as well. You just use false confidence instead.


People like to ignore that hope and mystery (and faith) have helped drive forward humanity's progress in the past. Nowadays is a different story, though. And a militant atheist will argue until their face turns blue against the past Pagan influence on today's structure and society.

Life's purpose has to be biological replication, or else it would have gone extinct and made way for forms of life whose purpose was more geared towards biological replication. That's basic evolution. Under the most likely assumption that life began from a coincidence of variables, then evolution would absolutely force future life towards procreation and genetic success being its fundamental goal. Individuals can control their own 'purposes' according to their whimsy, but the purpose of life is replication.

Modern religion (at least the spiritual part) has no rational basis. If you find any evidence of the existence of any deity or combination thereof, let me know. I'm always willing to accept new evidence, so long as it actually is evidence. Yes, I believe that on a society-wide level religion fulfills a psychological need for comfort and structure. I still believe that there are a lot of parallels between religion and Santa.

I do believe that religion has had benefits for human progress, because it functioned as a 'rule-book' and a binding influence that could help with societal survival rates. Don't eat pigs (they're full of parasites in 0 AD). Don't kill each other (unless in certain circumstances which threaten a society). Stick with this religion (stick with the rulebook and the social group). I just think that now we can come up with this stuff in a progressive fashion instead of adhering to the outmoded rules we created long ago and calcifying.

Nert, thanks for the book recommendation. I'm going to read it. I think that topic's really interesting!
 
Mystic Theurge said:
My brain might be telling me to impregnate her but that doesn't mean it's my purpose.
You base instincts are to eat, drink, seek shelter, defend yourself, and fuck, same as a dog, a rat, ant, or anything else that lives. I guess you can pick whichever one you want to be your ultimate purpose, but reproduction seems nobler, at least from a wider perspective. To think it's anything further than that is narcissism. Just because you've evolved a brain capable of (arguably) higher thought doesn't make you any more useful or noble than any other animal. It's great to be able to read Shakespeare, for instance, but that doesn't make any of us anything better than another beast trying to grunt the species into another generation.
 

Staccat0

Fail out bailed
To me, its easy to see every day. The people who survive and get to fuck have better chances at having children. These kids look like their parents.
If one of these things about them makes them more likely to fuck again, they will proliferate.
Something like that..

Raist said:
Many of these questions have nothing to do with evolution.
As for "why is there just one human species", well, there were different species at some point, and only "ours" survived. Now, unless 2 populations of current humans are completely isolated from each other for thousands of years (a fundamental requirement for speciation) we will never see a different Homo species arise.
Also, its important to remember that the entire concept of a "species" is a human construct made for organizational purposes.
Failings in catagorization =/= failings in eovolution. The argument gets muddy when people start picking nits about "species" coming and going
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom