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My attempt at an Evolution thread! OhgodwhatamIdoing.

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ianp622

Member
MrSerrels said:
I think you're preaching to the choir buddy.

I agree with you. I've had this argument a million times and trust me, I'm on your side.

Maybe 'sensible' was the wrong word. All I'm saying is that there are people in possession of all the facts that don't believe in evolution. They have reasons for believing in Creation and it's worth investigating that viewpoint, from a scientific point of view.

One of my favourite quotes to come out of this whole debate is from Stephen Jay Gould:

"... if we ever begin to suppress our search to understand nature, to quench our own intellectual excitement in a misguided effort to present a united front where it does not and should not exist, then we are truly lost."

We need to question ourselves, and our own position, even if it's just in order to reaffirm it. The fact is people have different ideas, they are often informed ideas, and they are sometimes different to ours.

I'd just like to reaffirm. I'm an atheist, I completely believe that evolution is a scientific fact. So there's no need to try and convince me of that fact! :lol

If someone doesn't believe in evolution, they either:

1. Do not have all the facts
2. Are emotionally incapable of accepting it because of the consequences
3. Have been brainwashed to ignore the facts
4. Are neorej

Yes we need to question ourselves, but Creationism is a dead end. It doesn't tell us anything, it just says, "God did it, we can stop looking now!" That's not going to get us anywhere.

It's NOT worth investigating that viewpoint, any more than it's worth investigating the possibility that gravity is explained by the Flying Spaghetti Monster pushing down on everything with his invisible noodley appendages. And given how little we know about gravity, I'd say that's more plausible.

If people have a hypothesis that actually explained diversity of life and was both supported by evidence and made predictions based on the hypothesis, then scientists would look at it.
 

Witchfinder General

punched Wheelchair Mike
ianp622 said:
If someone doesn't believe in evolution, they either:

1. Do not have all the facts
2. Are emotionally incapable of accepting it because of the consequences
3. Have been brainwashed to ignore the facts

Yes we need to question ourselves, but Creationism is a dead end. It doesn't tell us anything, it just says, "God did it, we can stop looking now!" That's not going to get us anywhere.

It's NOT worth investigating that viewpoint, any more than it's worth investigating the possibility that gravity is explained by the Flying Spaghetti Monster pushing down on everything with his invisible noodley appendages. And given how little we know about gravity, I'd say that's more plausible.

If people have a hypothesis that actually explained diversity of life and was both supported by evidence and made predictions based on the hypothesis, then scientists would look at it.

A different viewpoint needn't solely educate ourselves about a fact, it can also educate ourselves about the person.
 

Sblargh

Banned
The problem with debating evolution is not only that we aren't professional biologists, but that, for a theory to be disputed, it needs to present some kind of structural problem that prevents advance from being made.

I mean, I'll be Kunhnian here, evolution theory has no phenomena that either contradicts the theory or presents itself as a problem that can not be answer unless we throuw it away.

And even if it did have those kinds of problems, an alternative could only be proposed if it explained the phenomena in question, without such theory, even a flawed theory must still be used, for science cannot happen without a paradigm, it needs even a flawed one.
-
Now, evolution theory not only does not need to be replaced, as the theory trying to replace it proposed nothing useful, if we can consider "an intelligent design created it" as a scientific proposition at all.

But for me, the biggest problem is the most obvious one: this is not a scientific debate, it is a cultural one, even a political one. Most of the times, people aren't debating evolution against creationism, but american liberalism versus american conservatism; just look at the way certain american conservatives use creationism to get votes.

I mean, there are times when science and politics overlap, especially when science begins to do stuff that enter some kind of ethical gray area like stem cells, but even then, we are not discussing the theory, but a certain practice. For example, if we find a way to erase genetically a certain ethnicity, the problem is not if this theory is right or wrong, but that we think it is wrong to do it.

Anyway, it's just awful to see people pretending to be debating a scientifical view when they are actually trying to make you vote for some guy on 2012.
 

neorej

ERMYGERD!
ianp622 said:
If someone doesn't believe in evolution, they either:

1. Do not have all the facts
2. Are emotionally incapable of accepting it because of the consequences
3. Have been brainwashed to ignore the facts

Yes we need to question ourselves, but Creationism is a dead end. It doesn't tell us anything, it just says, "God did it, we can stop looking now!" That's not going to get us anywhere.

It's NOT worth investigating that viewpoint, any more than it's worth investigating the possibility that gravity is explained by the Flying Spaghetti Monster pushing down on everything with his invisible noodley appendages. And given how little we know about gravity, I'd say that's more plausible.

If people have a hypothesis that actually explained diversity of life and was both supported by evidence and made predictions based on the hypothesis, then scientists would look at it.

I don't believe in evolution. I have accepted it as being the most acceptable theory on life and it's origin. And as long as no other theory provides scientifical evidence that debunks evolution, I will keep accepting it.
 
Teh Hamburglar said:
al4shi.jpg
:lol
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
Updated the OP with a few edits and a lot of placeholders, will get to some during work, and the rest after.
 

YYZ

Junior Member
The gap thing is funny. You could be a businessman who looks at a lot of graphs and claim there aren't enough data points. You'd need an infinite number of points before you're satisfied, but of course, no one does this, even if they are anti-evolution.
 

ianp622

Member
neorej said:
I don't believe in evolution. I have accepted it as being the most acceptable theory on life and it's origin. And as long as no other theory provides scientifical evidence that debunks evolution, I will keep accepting it.

I fixed it.
 

jaxword

Member
neorej said:
I don't believe in evolution. I have accepted it as being the most acceptable theory on life and it's origin. And as long as no other theory provides scientifical evidence that debunks evolution, I will keep accepting it.

People should stop using the term "believe" with evolution. Doing so places it in the same realm as religion.

Perhaps people should say they UNDERSTAND evolution as a better way to express it.

By reducing it to "belief" then it becomes easier prey. "You evolutionists are operating on just as much faith as religion, therefore it is equally invalid!"

There's a certain irony there, but it's often ignored.

Also, Kinitari, perhaps you should update your OP with MODERN proof so the usual critics can't use the whole "You weren't around when it happened therefore it's just faith!"

Off the top of my head, I can think of a few modern examples of evolution, but they'll need more details, obviously.

Tuberculosis, which mutated defenses against our vaccines over the past 40 years, is a good example.

The aforementioned speckled butterflies.

I would even say dog breeding is an example, albeit in an unnatural way. We deliberately forced an environment where specific traits were passed down and others died off. True, no Speciation occurred (part of the usual argument for evolution over millions of years) but it demonstrates the principle of change with new generations.

I like this example because I'd like to hear the rebuttal to the fact evolution is real--We cause it.
 

JGS

Banned
jakershaker said:
It's easy to make a summary of evolution:

People who believe in it: Smart

People who don't believe in it: Stupid

Luckily, the stupid people can't do anything about it in the long run. Science always win sooner or later.

Only people who argue against evolution are religious nuts or devils advocates.

Not even sure what the controversy is to be honest, there sure isn't any among the Biology scientist. This is like discussing if gravity exists :lol
Really? Wow. You've got it figured out!:lol

There's not really a controversy as evolution is taught everywhere. People on an individual basis simply choose whether they wish to believe it or not. What does it matter to science that the majority of humans on the planet are religious?

As has been pointed out, there is very little risk of scientist converting to creation (Which has little to do with the theory of evolution anyway from what evolutionist tell me- only the orgen of life).
 

Raist

Banned
jaxword said:
I would even say dog breeding is an example, albeit in an unnatural way. We deliberately forced an environment where specific traits were passed down and others died off. True, no Speciation occurred (part of the usual argument for evolution over millions of years) but it demonstrates the principle of change with new generations.

I'm fairly sure you can't cross a Great Dane with a Chihuahua :p
 

Nocebo

Member
JGS said:
Really? Wow. You've got it figured out!:lol

There's not really a controversy as evolution is taught everywhere. People on an individual basis simply choose whether they wish to believe it or not. What does it matter to science that the majority of humans on the planet are religious?

As has been pointed out, there is very little risk of scientist converting to creation (Which has little to do with the theory of evolution anyway from what evolutionist tell me- only the orgen of life).
Because that majority can vote. Subsequently stifling research in certain areas of biology for instance.

Edit:
Also more interest in science is more scientists is faster progress in things that matter for our future, etc. Right?
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
JGS said:
Really? Wow. You've got it figured out!:lol

There's not really a controversy as evolution is taught everywhere. People on an individual basis simply choose whether they wish to believe it or not. What does it matter to science that the majority of humans on the planet are religious?

As has been pointed out, there is very little risk of scientist converting to creation (Which has little to do with the theory of evolution anyway from what evolutionist tell me- only the orgen of life).

I kind of want to avoid getting too into religion, but when it comes to Evolution - there are a lot of important lessons we are continuing to learn because of it, if Evolutionary biologists aren't getting money for research because the general population thinks it's all bunk and the politicians want to appease them well... then that just seems like such a waste in my eyes. I will reiterate, I don't want to convert people away from their respective deities with this thread, I just want those who sincerely don't understand or think that Evolution is 'just a theory' to realize the scope of what they are dismissing.

I should probably put something in the OP about the 'just a theory' thing :(.
 

jaxword

Member
JGS said:
There's not really a controversy as evolution is taught everywhere. People on an individual basis simply choose whether they wish to believe it or not.

You may not want to call it "controversy," but the reality is there are large amounts of religious groups attempting to remove evolution from schools. Several states in the US, such as Texas, are bad for this, as every year states like Kentucky or Utah attempt to pass bills against evolutionary teaching.

http://ncse.com/news/2010/02/antievolution-legislation-kentucky-005322


http://ncse.com/creationism/legal/institute-creation-research-graduate-school-v-paredes-et-al

http://ncse.com/news/2010/01/antievolution-legislation-missouri-005284

Thankfully, sometimes the good guys win:

http://ncse.com/news/2010/05/antievolution-legislation-missouri-dies-005509

Also, seminaries have expelled members for accepting evolution:

http://ncse.com/news/2010/04/evangelical-scholar-expelled-over-evolution-005432

Texans ALSO believe, strangely, that dinosaurs and humans walked the Earth at the same time:

http://ncse.com/news/2010/02/polling-evolution-texas-005330

There's several more examples, http://ncse.com/node is a good place to start.

Denying these things is a very transparent attempt to minimize any wrongdoing by religious groups, and is extremely dishonest to do so. It is a problem, and needs to be acknowledged and dealt with.
 
I met someone who blew my mind today. Why? Cause he was an atheist...and didn't believe in evolution. I was so shocked I didn't even asked him what he believed then. ;_;.
 

jiien

Member
I read once that the current evolutionary theory we have is inaccurate because there are observable instances in nature in which a given species has two concurrently developed anatomical parts or genes that rely on each other, and are useless without each other. Therefore, the two parts could not have "evolved" slowly over time, sequentially; they must have been "created" or instantiated at the same time, for them to have worth to the species and therefore propagate.

I don't have any specific examples on me, and I can't actually remember where I read this. So I may not be wording it correctly; please don't disprove it by semantics. It sounds like it makes sense, but I still understand/adhere to evolution, and I'm certainly not a creationist (I'm actually an atheist).

I was just wondering if anyone has read something similar, and has anything to say about it. I'm genuinely curious.
 

Pandaman

Everything is moe to me
jiien said:
I read once that the current evolutionary theory we have is inaccurate because there are observable instances in nature in which a given species has two concurrently developed anatomical parts or genes that rely on each other, and are useless without each other. Therefore, the two parts could not have "evolved" slowly over time, sequentially; they must have been "created" or instantiated at the same time, for them to have worth to the species and therefore propagate.

I don't have any specific examples on me, and I can't actually remember where I read this. So I may not be wording it correctly; please don't disprove it by semantics. It sounds like it makes sense, but I still understand/adhere to evolution, and I'm certainly not a creationist (I'm actually an atheist).

I was just wondering if anyone has read something similar, and has anything to say about it. I'm genuinely curious.
its a popular claim, but no-ones ever found an example.
 

Raist

Banned
jiien said:
I read once that the current evolutionary theory we have is inaccurate because there are observable instances in nature in which a given species has two concurrently developed anatomical parts or genes that rely on each other, and are useless without each other. Therefore, the two parts could not have "evolved" slowly over time, sequentially; they must have been "created" or instantiated at the same time, for them to have worth to the species and therefore propagate.

I don't have any specific examples on me, and I can't actually remember where I read this. So I may not be wording it correctly; please don't disprove it by semantics. It sounds like it makes sense, but I still understand/adhere to evolution, and I'm certainly not a creationist (I'm actually an atheist).

I was just wondering if anyone has read something similar, and has anything to say about it. I'm genuinely curious.
Sounds like the infamous "irreducible complexity" which is pure BS. Something that absolutely needs all of its parts to function doesn't mean that separate parts can't have a (different) function.
 

jiien

Member
Pandaman said:
its a popular claim, but no-ones ever found an example.

Raist said:
Sounds like the infamous "irreducible complexity" which is pure BS. Something that absolutely needs all of its parts to function doesn't mean that separate parts can't have a (different) function.

Ah, I apparently read an excerpt/parts of Darwin's Black Box, by Michael Behe, thanks to the phrase you used, Raist. Could you two go into more detail? I'm pretty sure he used examples in that book. And what if those separate parts don't have a different function? Are there really no examples of this at all?
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
jiien said:
Ah, I apparently read an excerpt/parts of Darwin's Black Box, by Michael Behe, thanks to the phrase you used, Raist. Could you two go into more detail? I'm pretty sure he used examples in that book. And what if those separate parts don't have a different function? Are there really no examples of this at all?

I haven't ever heard this argument, but I am going to take a stab at it real quick, then I'll read into it.

A creature currently living has 2 separate limbs that seem to rely entirely on each other to function. Originally somewhere back a few million years ago, the creature had the same two limbs or parts, but they were independant of each other, no symbiotic relationship between the two. Overtime a mutation occured that made the two limbs substantially more 'useful' when used together. This mutation was so significant that when other mutations taking away each limbs individual uses came about, it had no negative effect on the creatures ability to procreate (and who knows, maybe without all the extra features, made it more attractive and streamlined) - thus now we have a creature with two limbs that only work in conjunction, but at one point were independant.

Does that seem reasonable?
 

Raist

Banned
jiien said:
Ah, I apparently read an excerpt/parts of Darwin's Black Box, by Michael Behe, thanks to the phrase you used, Raist. Could you two go into more detail? I'm pretty sure he used examples in that book. And what if those separate parts don't have a different function? Are there really no examples of this at all?

Ah. Behe. Well the problem is that this Biochemistry professor makes unbelievably huge mistakes and claims. He probably used the blood clotting system or the bacterial flagellum as an example.

To cut it short, the idea is that if a very complicated molecular machine or pathway comprising many proteins doesn't work any more as soon as you remove only one of these proteins, this means that the probability for all genes to have evolved at the same time is insanely low, if not inexsitant (there is no such thing as impossibility with probability, but that's not the point).

What Behe (deliberately) fails to mention is that parts of these complexes, taken separately, do/did have a function.

A simple way of putting it is that people invented the car straight away from stratch, because you need all of its parts to have a functional, modern car. But this is not true, as cars have evolved over time, and some of their parts were used for completely different things. Such as wheels, for instance.
 

jiien

Member
Kinitari said:
I haven't ever heard this argument, but I am going to take a stab at it real quick, then I'll read into it.

A creature currently living has 2 separate limbs that seem to rely entirely on each other to function. Originally somewhere back a few million years ago, the creature had the same two limbs or parts, but they were independant of each other, no symbiotic relationship between the two. Overtime a mutation occured that made the two limbs substantially more 'useful' when used together. This mutation was so significant that when other mutations taking away each limbs individual uses came about, it had no negative effect on the creatures ability to procreate (and who knows, maybe without all the extra features, made it more attractive and streamlined) - thus now we have a creature with two limbs that only work in conjunction, but at one point were independant.

Does that seem reasonable?

Thank's to Raist's use of that term, I read up more about what Behe actually said, and what other people say in response, and with your response in conjunction, it makes a lot more sense to me. An example I read was of building a stone arc; to gradually build it, viewing the final product, makes no sense. But if you view it gradually built with supporting stone underneath the arc, that is later removed, it then makes sense.

Anyway, thanks for the response. Clears a lot up. Maybe this should be added to the OP?

Raist said:
Ah. Behe. Well the problem is that this Biochemistry professor makes unbelievably huge mistakes and claims. He probably used the blood clotting system or the bacterial flagellum as an example.

To cut it short, the idea is that if a very complicated molecular machine or pathway comprising many proteins doesn't work any more as soon as you remove only one of these proteins, this means that the probability for all genes to have evolved at the same time is insanely low, if not inexsitant (there is no such thing as impossibility with probability, but that's not the point).

What Behe (deliberately) fails to mention is that parts of these complexes, taken separately, do/did have a function.

A simple way of putting it is that people invented the car straight away from stratch, because you need all of its parts to have a functional, modern car. But this is not true, as cars have evolved over time, and some of their parts were used for completely different things. Such as wheels, for instance.

Yeah, I read more into it. I guess I should have before I posted, but until this thread came along, I never really thought about it. Thanks for the response, this makes a lot more sense. I read that excerpt a long time ago, and in the back of my head, always wondered what happened to his proposed ideas (as in, why is evolution still widely believed/understood/whatever if this guy was right?). But I guess he was (quite) a bit off. Thanks.
 

Blair

Banned
If it hasn't been mentioned already, i reccomend this series for the youtube video section

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnJX68ELbAY


although it bangs on about creationism alot, its a goldmine for information on evolution and the misconceptions people have when they are not educated whatsoever on the subject.

edit- ah it has, nevermind, its awesome.
 

besada

Banned
jiien said:
Ah, I apparently read an excerpt/parts of Darwin's Black Box, by Michael Behe, thanks to the phrase you used, Raist. Could you two go into more detail? I'm pretty sure he used examples in that book. And what if those separate parts don't have a different function? Are there really no examples of this at all?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity

I suppose it's possible there are ample examples and the people most desirous of finding them have been unable to. The Wiki link includes Behe and crew's specific examples, and why they are incorrect.
 

JGS

Banned
jaxword said:
You may not want to call it "controversy," but the reality is there are large amounts of religious groups attempting to remove evolution from schools. Several states in the US, such as Texas, are bad for this, as every year states like Kentucky or Utah attempt to pass bills against evolutionary teaching.

http://ncse.com/news/2010/02/antievolution-legislation-kentucky-005322


http://ncse.com/creationism/legal/institute-creation-research-graduate-school-v-paredes-et-al

http://ncse.com/news/2010/01/antievolution-legislation-missouri-005284

Thankfully, sometimes the good guys win:

http://ncse.com/news/2010/05/antievolution-legislation-missouri-dies-005509

Also, seminaries have expelled members for accepting evolution:

http://ncse.com/news/2010/04/evangelical-scholar-expelled-over-evolution-005432

Texans ALSO believe, strangely, that dinosaurs and humans walked the Earth at the same time:

http://ncse.com/news/2010/02/polling-evolution-texas-005330

There's several more examples, http://ncse.com/node is a good place to start.

Denying these things is a very transparent attempt to minimize any wrongdoing by religious groups, and is extremely dishonest to do so. It is a problem, and needs to be acknowledged and dealt with.
Attempting and accomplishing are two vastly different verbs and there is no doubt whatsoever in anyone's mind, religious or not, that evolution is the standard and will remain so. I think the main issue is the factthat religion is here to stay regardless of how widely accepted evolution is. That because the two are not mutually exclusive of each other. It's definitely not an either...or scenario.

I saw one for Kentucky and can almost completely assure you there will be no change in curriculum no matter what's introduced. Besides, the states that have succeeded in passing a law have been chastised constantly for their choice - to the point of them changing their mind.

Seminaries (Religious instruction for goodness sake) who have a doctrine against evolution should expel the students as they are no longer practicing their faith and those students should go to a University where they belong!:lol

EDIT: I went ahead and looked up the links and it verified what I said about there being no real controversy beyond evolutionists of all people giving voice to an anti-evolutionist's concerns by posting every little thing about them.
 

jaxword

Member
JGS said:
Attempting and accomplishing are two vastly different verbs and there is no doubt whatsoever in anyone's mind, religious or not, that evolution is the standard and will remain so. I think the main issue is the factthat religion is here to stay regardless of how widely accepted evolution is. That because the two are not mutually exclusive of each other. It's definitely not an either...or scenario.


Seminaries (Religious instruction for goodness sake) who have a doctrine against evolution should expel the students as they are no longer practicing their faith and those students should go to a University where they belong!:lol

These two paragraphs contradict each other. First one says that it's not an "either or" scenerio. Then the second condones religious institutions having doctrines against evolution. Sounds like there ARE institutions working hard to stop scientific evidence, regardless of how apologists want to whitewash it. That is a very hypocritical and dishonest tactic, and it's shameful to see religious people try and use it. The very fact there ARE institutions, regardless of their size, that are devoted to educating people against evolution shows that there is a problem. Ignorance should never be justified or defended.
 

PistolGrip

sex vacation in Guam
Drkirby said:
Still don't know why the church doesn't just say God made evolution.
Catholic church accepts evolution and has for a long time. Although what they believe is what people here have described in that GOD created evolution mechanism ... what a sneaky little god wiping out all evidence of his existance and just leaving a book that copies myths, fairy tales from others and has tons of contradictions. Where does he leave his evidence?? In some illiterate region in the middle east where it takes thousands of years to get accross the world and still hasnt reached some places...
 

ianp622

Member
Although people get upset at my using "belief" in terms of evolution, accepting a theory requires a belief in both evidence as a predicting factor and the scientific method as a means of arriving at truth. We can't prove that these assumptions are true, and therefore we require a "belief".

However, when I say "believe in evolution", I mean "accept evolution as the best explanation for the evidence we currently have". Sorry for the confusion.
 
Kad5 said:
Can someone remind me why there is any controversy regarding evolution?
People are scared by death and evolution pokes a hole in their mythology that allows them to think death is just a transition to an after-life.

That is why I think many people don't accept it as the truth it is.
 

JGS

Banned
jaxword said:
These two paragraphs contradict each other. First one says that it's not an "either or" scenerio. Then the second condones religious institutions having doctrines against evolution. Sounds like there ARE institutions working hard to stop scientific evidence, regardless of how apologists want to whitewash it. That is a very hypocritical and dishonest tactic, and it's shameful to see religious people try and use it. The very fact there ARE institutions, regardless of their size, that are devoted to educating people against evolution shows that there is a problem. Ignorance should never be justified or defended.
There is a seperation of church and state so there is no contradiction. A person is welcome to believe whatever they want provided it doesn't nterfere with secular standard. A seminary that does not believe in evolution does not do that.

A religion that doesn't like evolution is in no way enforcing that belief on society at large (Actually opposite of evolutionists since they have government backing) - just on adherents of their faith which they have the right to do.

Further, most religious people are not in a seminary so most people are fine with believing in God and evolution. The stats prove that- most are taught evolution and most are not atheists.
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
I am honestly surprised at the lack of dissent in this thread - going by some other threads I've read, I was expecting more people coming in who did not understand or did not believe. Wonder why that is.
 

jaxword

Member
Kinitari said:
I am honestly surprised at the lack of dissent in this thread - going by some other threads I've read, I was expecting more people coming in who did not understand or did not believe. Wonder why that is.

Well, there's dissent...it's just subtle. You can see the apologists trying hard to whitewash away those groups that DO work hard to stifle scientific evidence. This isn't about science, this is a political game at heart.

See, there's overwhelming evidence for evolution. You can't deny that. So what sneaky people do is instead attack from a different angle, making it ALRIGHT to "not believe." They do this by a few different methods. One is downplaying the controversy, which is very real. It's an approach to make "evolutionists" look like the villains, trying hard to ruin the innocent religious peoples' lives. There are many schools that teach creationism over evolution; there's even another thread right now ABOUT a school doing this. Also note that certain apologists are avoiding that thread--it's too hard to blatantly lie and claim there's no controversy when the evidence is streaming at you.

Another method is trying to portray the "unbelievers" as helping the world. This isn't true. Ignorance does not make things better, nor is it something to be protected or lauded. And, on some level, the apologists know this, but will never admit to it. They may attack other sources of spreading ignorance, but when it comes to a source they want to protect (i.e. religious in nature) they will argue "It's their right." And yes, it is their right, but that doesn't make it RIGHT. To protect one group spreading ignorance over another is the height of hypocrisy, and people easily can see it.

As for the blatant dissenters, I think it's just regular too-late-to-disagree, as the thread's got a lot of posts already and anyone who disagrees knows they have about 30 people who will instantly prove them wrong.
 

JGS

Banned
Kinitari said:
I am honestly surprised at the lack of dissent in this thread - going by some other threads I've read, I was expecting more people coming in who did not understand or did not believe. Wonder why that is.
Well, the thread I was discussing it in was the religion thread so it's a little different animal.
 

JGS

Banned
jaxword said:
Well, there's dissent...it's just subtle. You can the apologists trying hard to whitewash away those groups that DO work hard to stifle scientific evidence. This isn't about science, this is a political game at heart.

See, there's overwhelming evidence for evolution. You can't deny that. So what sneaky people do is instead attack from a different angle, making it ALRIGHT to "not believe." They do this by a few different methods. One is downplaying the controversy, which is very real. It's an approach to make "evolutionists" look like the villains, trying hard to ruin the innocent religious peoples' lives. There are many schools that teach creationism over evolution; there's even another thread right now ABOUT a school doing this. Also note that certain apologists are avoiding that thread--it's too hard to blatantly lie and claim there's no controversy when the evidence is streaming at you.

Another method is trying to portray the "unbelievers" as helping the world. This isn't true. Ignorance does not make things better, nor is it something to be protected or lauded. And, on some level, the apologists know this, but will never admit to it. They may attack other sources of spreading ignorance, but when it comes to a source they want to protect (i.e. religious in nature) they will argue "It's their right." And yes, it is their right, but that doesn't make it RIGHT. To protect one group spreading ignorance over another is the height of hypocrisy, and people easily can see it.

As for the blatant dissenters, I think it's just regular too-late-to-disagree, as the thread's got a lot of posts already and anyone who disagrees knows they have about 30 people who will instantly prove them wrong.
There's no whitewashing, the evidence of a great creation based conspiracy is as mythical as Zeus.

What is clear is a complete and nonsensical distrust of anyone not believing it and those who don't have a problem with people who don't believe it.
 

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
Two questions

This one is kind of hard to describe:
Say a part of a species is starting to mutate into a totally different species, the genes are changing at a very slow rate of time. How far can the dna be changed but also have the mutating group still have the ability to reproduce with the regular group? I've never heard of a human having a child with another animal, but don't we have tiger and lion hybrids? (Ligers/Tions)

Second one has more to do with general biology and is about a discussion with a coworker. He is under the impression that if a male and female were the only ones left on the planet (Adam and Eve situation) that they would not have enough genetic variation to have the human race live on. He said this would be true if there was only one man and fifty women. If the species were to survive wouldn't mutations happen anyways?
 

jiien

Member
JGS said:
What is clear is a complete and nonsensical distrust of anyone not believing it and those who don't have a problem with people who don't believe it.

Just want to echo this. Some of the posts in the thread "attacking" religion and those religious are just as appalling as claims made that evolution subverts the proper education of children.

It's one thing to be secure in your own understanding that what another believes is false, and quite another to brand those people as stupid and mock their beliefs.
 

Mgoblue201

Won't stop picking the right nation
jiien said:
Ah, I apparently read an excerpt/parts of Darwin's Black Box, by Michael Behe, thanks to the phrase you used, Raist. Could you two go into more detail? I'm pretty sure he used examples in that book. And what if those separate parts don't have a different function? Are there really no examples of this at all?
This analogy only goes so far, but irreducible complexity is kind of like removing support structures from a building and then after it falls saying that it couldn't have been built piece by piece. It must have been created whole out of thin air. Of course, organisms must be functional every step along the way, but let's take the blood clotting system. You can take out one blood clotting protein from a human and the system will malfunction. Yet how would one explain the fact that the lamprey and the whale are missing some of the proteins that we have altogether?

The answer is historical contingency. Each step along the way the function is ever so slightly different. You might think that nerves need a brain to interpret the information, but that's not so. Jellyfish have nerves and no brain. You can trace the lineage of an eye all the way back to a tiny light sensing organ, but you don't even need an eye to sense light. Some microscopic organisms perform that function just fine. The infamous flagellum, it appears, which needs every single one of its 42 proteins to be functional, isn't quite so irreducible, as you can see by this video. 40 of these proteins are found elsewhere in the cell, and each step only needs the modification of a single protein. IDers might tell you that the Type III Secretory System did not evolve until after the flagellum. This is true, but it misses the point. The flagellum adapted a kind of proto-T3SS system from an ancestral lineage before the two systems diverged (yes, genes also have lineages). The point is, because certain proteins or functions are contingent upon one another doesn't necessary mean that they always were.

Furthermore, it's not like a function changes after just one mutation. Sometimes it does (sickle cells, for instance), but most of the time a protein can actually accrue a good deal of random noise to certain base pairs before some event comes along that alters the function or integrates the protein into another system. Sometimes it involves a duplication event.

Irreducible complexity is probably impossible to prove anyway. We literally can't verify that this is true for every single function. Luckily, evolution was well proven before this. Now Behe is saying that it is mathematically unlikely that evolution could occur if a new function takes three or four or more successive mutations to become active. However, IDers are pretty bad at applying math to evolution. This fact is exemplified by William Dembski.
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
Trojita said:
Two questions

This one is kind of hard to describe:
Say a part of a species is starting to mutate into a totally different species, the genes are changing at a very slow rate of time. How far can the dna be changed but also have the mutating group still have the ability to reproduce with the regular group? I've never heard of a human having a child with another animal, but don't we have tiger and lion hybrids? (Ligers/Tions)

Without going into too much detail (mostly because I am working off of memory and don't really have a good opportunity to do some quick research while at work) - lets say there are three stages of reproduction.

1. Regular successful reproduction, you create a healthy offspring. This happens when the parents share more or less the exact same DNA - there is a number I can't remember what it represents exactly - but as long as both parents have the same amount of this number, healthy babies. I think the number is the number of useful genes? It's been too long :(.

Edit: Apparently that 'number' is the number of chromosones.

2. Successful reproduction that creates not-healthy offspring, usually sterile at birth. When the previously mentioned number does not match up exactly, but is still very close and the animals very similar this happens. Think mules and ligers.

Edit: for example, with mules - horses have 62 chromosones and donkeys have 64. It's close, but not close enough for healthy babies.

3. No successful reproduction. The number (of chromosones) is way off.

I'll edit this post later when I remember what the hell that number is supposed to represent!

Second one has more to do with general biology and is about a discussion with a coworker. He is under the impression that if a male and female were the only ones left on the planet (Adam and Eve situation) that they would not have enough genetic variation to have the human race live on. He said this would be true if there was only one man and fifty women. If the species were to survive wouldn't mutations happen anyways?

This I am not too well versed on. As far as I know, your friend is more or less right about the first Scenario. But with the second? There would still be something to work with. Although I couldn't give you details - if no one else answers, I can at least promise I'll look into it for you.
 

Mgoblue201

Won't stop picking the right nation
Trojita said:
Two questions

This one is kind of hard to describe:
Say a part of a species is starting to mutate into a totally different species, the genes are changing at a very slow rate of time. How far can the dna be changed but also have the mutating group still have the ability to reproduce with the regular group? I've never heard of a human having a child with another animal, but don't we have tiger and lion hybrids? (Ligers/Tions)

Second one has more to do with general biology and is about a discussion with a coworker. He is under the impression that if a male and female were the only ones left on the planet (Adam and Eve situation) that they would not have enough genetic variation to have the human race live on. He said this would be true if there was only one man and fifty women. If the species were to survive wouldn't mutations happen anyways?
Most of the time, I believe, different species have trouble mating. Even if they are successful, the DNA clashes and the offspring is often sterile. The mule (male donkey/female horse) is usually sterile. Even before then there are reproductive barriers that go up, for instance, some fish have different colors, and some birds use different songs. If you think of two groups diverging, then they're going to have more and more difficult mating over time. Apparently humans mated with Neanderthals, but there is some arguments about whether they represent a different species or the same species. I believe I even remember one case of an intra-family mating. Anyway, it's hard to tell how the DNA interacts, so it's kind of unpredictable.

I wouldn't know how to answer the second question. The first scenario isn't possible, but I don't know the viability of half-siblings, and that is something I'm not going to Google. Mutations couldn't occur fast enough, though.
 

jiien

Member
Mgoblue201 said:
This analogy only goes so far, but irreducible complexity is kind of like removing support structures from a building and then after it falls saying that it couldn't have been built piece by piece. It must have been created whole out of thin air. Of course, organisms must be functional every step along the way, but let's take the blood clotting system. You can take out one blood clotting protein from a human and the system will malfunction. Yet how would one explain the fact that the lamprey and the whale are missing some of the proteins that we have altogether?

The answer is historical contingency. Each step along the way the function is ever so slightly different. You might think that nerves need a brain to interpret the information, but that's not so. Jellyfish have nerves and no brain. You can trace the lineage of an eye all the way back to a tiny light sensing organ, but you don't even need an eye to sense light. Some microscopic organisms perform that function just fine. The infamous flagellum, it appears, which needs every single one of its 42 proteins to be functional, isn't quite so irreducible, as you can see by this video. 40 of these proteins are found elsewhere in the cell, and each step only needs the modification of a single protein. IDers might tell you that the Type III Secretory System did not evolve until after the flagellum. This is true, but it misses the point. The flagellum adapted a kind of proto-T3SS system from an ancestral lineage before the two systems diverged (yes, genes also have lineages). The point is, because certain proteins or functions are contingent upon one another doesn't necessary mean that they always were.

Furthermore, it's not like a function changes after just one mutation. Sometimes it does (sickle cells, for instance), but most of the time a protein can actually accrue a good deal of random noise to certain base pairs before some event comes along that alters the function or integrates the protein into another system. Sometimes it involves a duplication event.

Irreducible complexity is probably impossible to prove anyway. We literally can't verify that this is true for every single function. Luckily, evolution was well proven before this. Now Behe is saying that it is mathematically unlikely that evolution could occur if a new function takes three or four or more successive mutations to become active. However, IDers are pretty bad at applying math to evolution. This fact is exemplified by William Dembski.

Wow, thanks for the indepth response. Yeah, thanks to you and a bunch of other guys here, it makes more sense. This thread has prompted me to spend the past couple of hours googling about these things, which I had never taken the time to read more into before.
 

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
speculawyer said:
People are scared by death and evolution pokes a hole in their mythology that allows them to think death is just a transition to an after-life.

That is why I think many people don't accept it as the truth it is.

What does evolution have to do with a possible afterlife?
 

JGS

Banned
Trojita said:
What does evolution have to do with a possible afterlife?
Agreed.

I think it has more to do with possibly a couple of things.

1. Evolution is almost always tied to origen of life theories even amongst evolutionists. No one can tell the difference. I have no problems with evolution. I have all kinds of problems with them telling me how life started. A lot of people do.

2. From Judeo Christian standpoint, if we are created in God's image, then we are not evolved from monkeys which again links to 1.

I really don't think most religious people care when fish got legs or more detailed explanations of evolution.

I am not going to be the one to derail this thread though, so no discussion about it from me especially since there are pages of waste space in the Religion thread about it.
 

Tieno

Member
First, this shows a very poor understanding of Evolution theory. Secondly, it shows a closed mindedness that is very common - in fact I suffered from it for a long time even after I thought I fully 'understood' Evolution. Consider, that there is no such thing as 'Species' - there are no walls or lines drawn separating one type of animal from another - these walls and lines are not only human invention used to more easily categorize animals, it is a line that is always changing and under debate. What does this mean? There is no such thing as an intermediate species - because all species are what one could consider intermediate. They have no goal or end desire, they do not want to turn into ducks or fish or dinosaurs - they are simply mutating, and the after enough of these mutations pile up we get visible phenotypes as well as enough genetic variation that we classify something differently than it's ancestor. But that's it, it's not as though this classification was there beforehand, simply waiting unoccupied.
Yeah, we only see the end of the branches. I'd also point out the common mistake of people thinking "there's got to be a point where a monkey gave birth to a human". Well, there isn't. It's one continuous line, not one single point where you can divide it different species. Every ancestor can have it away with his son/close relatives as they're genetically similar enough to produce offspring. It's just that at some point like say part 15 in the chain can't shag with part 850+ and produce offspring, cause they're genetically too different. From a time perspective, species aren't a discrete category, they're category imposed by humans.
You can make groupings, but you won't have discrete groupings with a fixed boundery, you'll have a big grey area. If it weren't for the scarcity of fossils, it'd be way more difficult to organize them all.
 

koam

Member
PuppetSlave said:
I liked this when I was in school as an example of natural selection.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution

I like this article because it links out to a bird named "The Great Tit"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Tit

Edit: This article is hillarious and juvenile if you remove the word "bird" from it

The Great Tit has adapted well to human changes in the environment and is a common and familiar in urban parks and gardens

the Great Tit's closest relatives are the White-naped and Green-backed Tits of southern Asia
 

gohepcat

Banned
JGS said:
Agreed.

I think it has more to do with possibly a couple of things.

1. I have no problems with evolution. I have all kinds of problems with them telling me how life started. A lot of people do.

Huh? I don't understand this. You have a problem with the creation of the universe or the origin of live on earth?

I didn't realize people had an issue with this. Why would you have no problem with evolution but with the origin of life?
 
JGS said:
Agreed.

I think it has more to do with possibly a couple of things.

1. Evolution is almost always tied to origen of life theories even amongst evolutionists. No one can tell the difference. I have no problems with evolution. I have all kinds of problems with them telling me how life started. A lot of people do.

2. From Judeo Christian standpoint, if we are created in God's image, then we are not evolved from monkeys which again links to 1.

I really don't think most religious people care when fish got legs or more detailed explanations of evolution.

I am not going to be the one to derail this thread though, so no discussion about it from me especially since there are pages of waste space in the Religion thread about it.
great post. I agree in that I have no problem with evolutionary adaptation. That is something observable and we have seen that in our life time. Something as minute as skin becoming lighter in colder climates or darker in warmer ones. Hair changing under certain conditions etc. However using it to explain the beginnings of life is no different than someone believing a higher power created life. Both take belief/faith, because there is no definitive proof to say one way or the other.
 
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