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[shira]

I can imagine a grown adult man, wearing a VR headset, listening to this virtual teen girl talk to him about her academics, her interest in piano, her favourite movie, and all the while his brain is engaged in a veritable psychological magic show, desperately trying to reassure himself that when he bought this game, he was very sincerely interested in experiencing a simulation of what it's like to be a tutor.

It's meant for the Japanese market.

 

[AALLx]

I don't think this is the same as "I listen to Fugazi and the people who listen to Nickleback are fools."

I'm basing my argument on the possibility that there are moral issues at play here.

And I think the rape simulator is a totally pertinent example to mention, because if that were the type of game in question, I don't think many people would be so keen on the "it's just a game" defense.

The reason it applies to Summer Lesson is that I personally feel like that is a game that falls somewhere on the spectrum between rape simulator and dating sim. Obviously it falls way closer to dating sim, but I argue that there are vague hints of non-consentuality here, and for that reason I'm not willing to give it a free pass.

Is the relativity of morality such a hard concept to grasp?

 

[Gemeanie]

I wonder if you even have the slightest idea on what the game is about. Speaking about agendas...

The agenda has been obvious when the time he spent typing this long OP was obviously long enough to watch a LP to actually know how tame the game is

Edit: In fact coming from a country where rape victims often get blamed for wearing "revealing clothes" the amount of people here who see everything a girl does as "hints to sexuality" is disturbing if not terrifying. I'm out.

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

Repeat after me OP: It's just a game. No one is being violated, no one is being hurt.

Do you feel bad running people over in GTA? No? Then why are you so upset that people are hanging out with a virtual schoolgirl??

I'll never get this attitude where realistic violence is ok, but realistic dating(which summer lesson isn't even, really), oh my lord! The terror!

I mean, so what if the game HAD sex in it. Who is getting hurt here? What are you upset about?

I swear, people like you are the reasons why there are no good western developed romance games. Who'd dare to put one out!? Kill-and-mutilate-innocents 6 is ok though, right? Nothing sick about good old violence, it's just romance and sex that's wrong...

 

[Spman2099]

Sure, but that's not what SL actually is - that's just what some people here are projecting on to it. People are ignoring posters in this thread who have actually played it and are telling everyone how tame it really is. There was a someone a page back who identified as a straight female who said she played it and saw the girl as a little sister. I'll go out on a limb here and infer that means that that player did not feel like the game forced her into anything sexual.

Or that poster has an incredibly inappropriate relationship with her sister...

However, yeah, from what I am hearing the game sounds sorta interesting.

*shrug*

 

[Ban Puncher]

Email Harada.

 

[Arc81]

Have OP actually play the game?

 

[Chindogg]

I don't think this is the same as "I listen to Fugazi and the people who listen to Nickleback are fools."

I'm basing my argument on the possibility that there are moral issues at play here.

And I think the rape simulator is a totally pertinent example to mention, because if that were the type of game in question, I don't think many people would be so keen on the "it's just a game" defense.

The reason it applies to Summer Lesson is that I personally feel like that is a game that falls somewhere on the spectrum between rape simulator and dating sim. Obviously it falls way closer to dating sim, but I argue that there are vague hints of non-consentuality here, and for that reason I'm not willing to give it a free pass.

TIL a video game can consent. Especially a video game that's at worst a girlfriend simulator that has absolutely zero sex scenes in it.

Oh but the character could give you explicit consent you say? You mean where she shows you her pictures at the pool? The character in question is in a relationship with your character and "she's" given her "consent" to any of your character's "requests."

Seriously this whole argument about consent in a video game is mindboggling. It's nowhere near anything that would be considered a 'rape sim.'

 

[YianGaruga]

Have OP actually play the game?

Of course not. Otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.

 

[Hektor]

Not "anything" sexual. There's a difference between consensual and non consensual sex.

In the real world you're right, in the digital one tho, there can only be as much as "pretended" consensuality.

And even in the real world it isn't always as clear cut as that, some people enjoy the idea of pretended non-consensuality

 

[Tohsaka]

It's about execution when it comes down to that. The key criterion, IMO, comes down to the word 'senseless' and how context justifies 'senselessness'.

Does said work handle problematic topics/content well? More specifically, does it indulge in the problematic stuff? Does it have something to say about the issue(s), or does it provide a new perspective on it/them? Does it contextualise them in a realistic way?

(Of course not everything has to, especially works which are lighthearted or have a lot of levity.)

For instance, that massacre game. What's it called. "Hatred"? IIRC it did critically badly because it didn't have anything new to say and just indulged in senseless behaviour. But plenty of games with violence do not indulge in the senselessness. Some do - and again, that's fine if executed right- instead they contextualise it and make it part of their narrative. That's an important part of Western action games: contextualising the violence. In your example, imagine a game adaptation of American History X where we play a white supremacist. Even if we only played the home drama bits. That would be saying something about white supremacy, and when the player is forced to attack his sister, the violence would be contextualised and have a dramatic purpose.

A big problem I have with Japanese content which is heavily sexualised is that it often is not contextualised at all and it becomes senseless. This is also true of violence in many games. I couldn't get past the openings of several anime and videogames because pointless sexy bullshit happens. (We don't know if this is true of Summer Lesson yet.) Compare that to The Witcher 3 where you can play the entire game without a proper sex scene (just some dream-scene nudity at the opening), and when it does happen, it has hours of context beforehand imbuing the sexiness with justification and meaning. (The sex scenes are executed awfully but that's a whole other thing.)

And it goes both ways wrt violence: Similarly, there have been a few videogames (like Postal) that I couldn't get past the opening of because the violence was so senseless. The problem works both ways.

OP seems to have a problem with Summer Lesson - which I can empathise with - but just doesn't have enough information and is making some leaps. We don't know whether it's relevant. The release of the game will tell whether they succeeded or not.

The game is already out, there's no sexual content in it.

 

[forknknife]

If a teenager showing you a picture of her swimming trip with friends sets off sexual alarm bells in your mind then surely that is you corrupting an innocent gesture?

Also please don't presume the player is male or straight. If the player was a woman would you perceive the character sharing photos as flirtatious?

The character is not being flirtatious, is being oblivious to the sexual desires of the teacher and the game puts you in this position trying to make you all horny because omg virtual waifu titties!

It's crazy you guys are defending this game arguing it's really just a teacher simulator haha really??

 

[Corpekata]

If a teenager showing you a picture of her swimming trip with friends sets off sexual alarm bells in your mind then surely that is you corrupting an innocent gesture?

Also please don't presume the player is male or straight. If the player was a woman would you perceive the character sharing photos as flirtatious?

And please don't assume she's got maid dress DLC for pervy reasons, it's clear she just wants to learn how to clean and serve and she takes her roles seriously so she commits to it. She's big on roleplaying.

 

[raven777]

If you actually play the game, you will realize that she is the one actively trying to hit on you, not the other way around.

 

[Enter The 36 Chambers]

Everyone attacking OP for judging fans of a game.

A "game" which looks like nothing more than a schoolgirl grooming simulator. If you can't see what's wrong with this I don't know what to tell you.

 

[squall23]

But people asked for a translation of Project X Zone and he gave it to them.

 

[User123456]

It's about execution when it comes down to that. The key criterion, IMO, comes down to the word 'senseless' and how context justifies 'senselessness'.

Does said work handle problematic topics/content well? More specifically, does it indulge in the problematic stuff? Does it have something to say about the issue(s), or does it provide a new perspective on it/them? Does it contextualise them in a realistic way?

[...] That's an important part of Western action games: contextualising the violence.

Imagine I'm playing a game that plays and is written like actual nazi propaganda. The game tells me that what I'm doing is morally right, as if it's trying to sell me on the whole nazi deal. And I just go along with it.

Am I or am I not transformed into an actual nazi through this process?

Should or should I not be allowed to experience this?

Finally, should this or should this not be allowed to exist?

EDIT: And just so we're clear, assume I am a well-adjusted adult (I know this is gonna take a bit more imagination).

 

[Smooth Operator]

I've been waiting for this, i salute you sir

 

[casiopao]

As the designer, you can set the age of the player character to whatever you want, that doesn't mean the motivation behind creating this game was actually to give people the chance to feel like a college tutor.

Once again. What the hell u actually wanted to say here. The game does not seems to give any identity to the tutor. It is someone u urself pictured inside the game. I can pictured myself as very old man to a very young genius boy who can tutor a HS student. It is your own imagination.

And how the hell can u even know someones motivation here?O_O Are u an Epser? Why are u putting words for others here?

 

[kyser73]

What's happening here?

Dude needs better camera placement.

 

[Hierophant]

i just want to play creepy pervert games, i mean i'm not too far from the girls age in the game so a degree of creepiness is gone but it still lingers and i fully accept that i'm a creepy pervert
too bad i can't afford a psvr

 

[Arc81]

Everyone attacking OP for judging fans of a game.

A "game" which looks like nothing more than a schoolgirl grooming simulator. If you can't see what's wrong with this I don't know what to tell you.

Problem is that both you and OP haven't played the game? How can you judge something like that?

Does no one here know LovePlus?

 

[Dylan]

Can you show me these points of non-consentuality? Just a few pages ago, you didn't even know it was tame and now you are claiming that there's hidden rape in the game?

I'm all for discussion, but if you are going to jump from "vague hints of non-consentuality" to "hidden rape" I'm not sure how to respond. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume by "hidden rape" you meant "examples of non-consensual conduct."

So here's a real-world example.

Say a 16 year old girl gets a job in an office building. She happens to be very attractive, and her supervisor notices this. The supervisor has lunch with his two male colleagues and says "Hey, you have to see the new intern. She's a knockout."

The supervisor decides to call a meeting with the girl and his colleagues that afternoon about "scheduling". The meeting actually has no real purpose; it's simply intended for the two other men to get a look at the girl. There is no cat calling or groping, everything is done professionally. The meeting ends, and everyone goes back to work.

Is what happened here ethical? Was the girl taken advantage of, in a way that was non-consensual, even if she was totally unaware of the motivations of the men?

I argue that Summer Lesson comes much closer to simulating this example. So is it OK because video game? The girl doesn't actually exist, so no harm done right? But again, I don't give it a free pass. I still think it's valid to question a game that is designed to evoke this type of motivation by the player. I also think it's valid to question why people would want to experience it in the first place.

 

[sechsterangriff]

The character is not being flirtatious, is being oblivious to the sexual desires of the teacher and the game puts you in this position trying to make you all horny because omg virtual waifu titties!

It's crazy you guys are defending this game arguing it's really just a teacher simulator haha really??

Dude, beyond choosing an outfit that you unlock after completing the game a few times, you literally do nothing but planning her study curriculum. While she studies you give instructions and when on breaks you chose a topic for chitchat like music, school etc. and that’s it. If you want to look at the character from some pervy angle that’s on you. Like I said before there's litterally no sexualization, no lewdness beyond what you bring into the game.

 

[TheSpoiler]

Everyone attacking OP for judging fans of a game.

A "game" which looks like nothing more than a schoolgirl grooming simulator. If you can't see what's wrong with this I don't know what to tell you.

But it's not. That's the reality, I don't know what to tell you.

And people are getting on the OP for trying to draw parallels between this game and rape simulators, backhandedly claiming that this game and those awful sims are the same thing by pretending the game has non-consent in it (protip: it doesn't).

I'm all for discussion, but if you are going to jump from "vague hints of non-consentuality" to "hidden rape" I'm not sure how to respond. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume by "hidden rape" you meant "examples of non-consensual conduct."

So here's a real-world example.

Say a 16 year old girl gets a job in an office building. She happens to be very attractive, and her supervisor notices this. The supervisor has lunch with his two male colleagues and says "Hey, you have to see the new intern. She's a knockout."

The supervisor decides to call a meeting with the girl and his colleagues that afternoon about "scheduling". The meeting actually has no real purpose; it's simply intended for the two other men to get a look at the girl. There is no cat calling or groping, everything is done professionally. The meeting ends, and everyone goes back to work.

Is what happened here ethical? Was the girl taken advantage of, in a way that was non-consensual, even if she was totally unaware of the motivations of the men?

I argue that Summer Lesson comes much closer to simulating this example. So is it OK because video game? The girl doesn't actually exist, so no harm done right? But again, I don't give it a free pass. I still think it's valid to question a game that is designed to evoke this type of motivation by the player. I also think it's valid to question why people would want to experience it in the first place.

But you'd have to be under the assumption that the developers made the game with such motivation in play. And then you'd have to be under the assumption that players are setting out to oogle a girl.

The problem is you are projecting what people might possibly do as a full concept. You aren't going to be able to stop people from staring at a female character in games. Heck, the same thought process of your ridiculous example could be applied to model viewers, or just plain looking at Mercy's character model in Overwatch. It all depends on the intentions of the player, and at that level we have no idea. Once again, if you want to discuss why people are playing the game because you don't understand, that's perfectly fine. But your attempt at making players malicious like all people have the intent to oogle and rub one off going in is asinine.

Again, context matters. Comparing this to a rape simulator is mudding the waters and making it difficult to have a real conversation.

 

[Corpekata]

Problem is that both you and OP haven't played the game? How can you judge something like that?

I mean, it's out. You can watch videos and stuff?

I haven't read Mein Kampf but I'm gonna say you're a weirdo if you're a fan, personally.

 

[ZerOmegaG]

Everyone attacking OP for judging fans of a game.

A "game" which looks like nothing more than a schoolgirl grooming simulator. If you can't see what's wrong with this I don't know what to tell you.

The only wrong thing here is you and the OP judging people for what fiction they engage with while not even knowing what the game is about and refusing to listen to people who have actually played it.

 

[Enter The 36 Chambers]

Problem is that both you and OP haven't played the game? How can you judge something like that?

Dude, look at the fucking gifs and screenshots even just in this thread.

Come on. The fans should at least be able to man up and admit what this is and why they like it. Teacher simulator my ass.

 

[Ban Puncher]

So here's a real-world example.

Just the thing to compare to video games.

Dude, look at the fucking gifs and screenshots even just in this thread.

Come on. The fans should at least be able to man up and admit what this is and why they like it. Teacher simulator my ass.

Sorry, I am really dumb. Can you spell it out what this video game is about?

 

[rochellepaws]

And please don't assume she's got maid dress DLC for pervy reasons, it's clear she just wants to learn how to clean and serve and she takes her roles seriously so she commits to it.

One of the most popular shoujo anime is Kaichou wa Maid-sama!, a demographic animed at females, it's cute and a popular dress up option for Japanese teenagers. It isn't looked upon as purely fetish or pervy wear like it is in the west.

 

[packy34]

The character is not being flirtatious, is being oblivious to the sexual desires of the teacher and the game puts you in this position trying to make you all horny because omg virtual waifu titties!

It's crazy you guys are defending this game arguing it's really just a teacher simulator haha really??

You can't say with absolute certainty that the player DOES have sexual desires towards this student - that's the point. And since the game itself makes no attempt at making the player character sexually interested in her, that means the game itself is not in the wrong and people are simply having guilt complexes for being attracted to a virtual underaged student.

 

[jabuseika]

This game is mild compare to what's already out there in the visual novel realm.

 

[rochellepaws]

The character is not being flirtatious, is being oblivious to the sexual desires of the teacher and the game puts you in this position trying to make you all horny because omg virtual waifu titties!

It's crazy you guys are defending this game arguing it's really just a teacher simulator haha really??

What sexual desires? You play the teacher, the game doesn't tell you how to feel.

 

[Spman2099]

Everyone attacking OP for judging fans of a game.

A "game" which looks like nothing more than a schoolgirl grooming simulator. If you can't see what's wrong with this I don't know what to tell you.

You come across as painfully ignorant... Have you played the game? What aspect of it implies that it is a grooming simulator? Can you give a single example?

Dude, look at the fucking gifs and screenshots even just in this thread.

Come on. The fans should at least be able to man up and admit what this is and why they like it. Teacher simulator my ass.

Yeah, that's what I figured.

 

[User123456]

So is it OK because video game?

Yeah. I mean, what exactly is the argument saying otherwise?

Apply your argument to GTA and think about it.

 

[Arc81]

I mean, it's out. You can watch videos and stuff?

I haven't read Mein Kampf but I'm gonna say you're a weirdo if you're a fan, personally.

Dude, look at the fucking gifs and screenshots even just in this thread.

Come on. The fans should at least be able to man up and admit what this is and why they like it. Teacher simulator my ass.

why not? I'm pretty open minded. I'd try it for sure could be an interesting experience. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[forknknife]

Dude, beyond choosing an outfit that you unlock after completing the game a few times, you literally do nothing but planning her study curriculum. While she studies you give instructions and when on breaks you chose a topic for chitchat like music, school etc. and that’s it. If you want to look at the character from some pervy angle that’s on you. Like I said before there's litterally no sexualization, no lewdness beyond what you bring into the game.

I'm just going by the game's description in the OP. I've only watched this game in push square and giant bombs let's play videos (although that was already embarrassing enough for me).

Anyway, it's not really about SL in particular, we are debating over a wider topic.

 

[Hektor]

Dude, beyond choosing an outfit that you unlock after completing the game a few times, you literally do nothing but planning her study curriculum. While she studies you give instructions and when on breaks you chose a topic for chitchat like music, school etc. and that’s it. If you want to look at the character from some pervy angle that’s on you. Like I said before there's litterally no sexualization, no lewdness beyond what you bring into the game.

This is actually a very interesting thought to have, personally.

Assuming the game allows you to do a handful of 100% immoral things amongst a multitude of perfectly fine, innocent stuff, would the game itself be immoral for exisiting, or only the player for taking advantage of it?

Assuming there would be a game that would be a perfect simulation of the real world, like the matrix, that allows you to do absolutely everthing, all the good and the bad stuff.

Would the developer be immoral for making a game such as detailed as that, giving you the option to even committ to bad stuff? Or only the people using these options?

Where does player responsibility start and end?

 

[casiopao]

Everyone attacking OP for judging fans of a game.

A "game" which looks like nothing more than a schoolgirl grooming simulator. If you can't see what's wrong with this I don't know what to tell you.

??? I mean, is simulation genre something totally new for u there?O_O

I mean, Tokimeki Memorial? Princess Maker? Love Plus?Idolmaster?Ciel no Surge?

Is it because this is VR and suddenly world is collapsing lol.O_O

 

[Corpekata]

??? I mean, is simulation genre something totally new for u there?O_O

I mean, Tokimeki Memorial? Princess Maker? Love Plus?Idolmaster?Ciel no Surge?

Is it because this is VR and suddenly world is collapsing lol.O_O

Several of those tend to have the same or similar criticisms leveled at them. This is hardly a new conversation.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

I do also think it's kind of weird. Not as weird as certain Vita games, and it's certainly not the most uncomfortable thing to come out on PlayStation platforms, but it is kind of weird.

The continued fascination of certain men with school girls is really creepy due to the average age of school girls.

 

[tuna_love]

??? I mean, is simulation genre something totally new for u there?O_O

I mean, Tokimeki Memorial? Princess Maker? Love Plus?Idolmaster?Ciel no Surge?

Is it because this is VR and suddenly world is collapsing lol.O_O

i think people who play those games are weird as well

 

[SomedayTheFire]

i think it's weird af. as are most other games in that genre.

 

[Leafhopper]

How can you have a write up that's filled with incorrect information, that long over something you haven't experienced yourself?

Not to mention being this judgmental about it.

 

[SomTervo]

The game is already out, there's no sexual content in it.

Really?

Cool. Thanks for letting me know.

I'm sure it's pretty good. VR is powerful for simple stuff like this.

Imagine I'm playing a game that plays and is written like actual nazi propaganda. The game tells me that what I'm doing is morally right, as if it's trying to sell me on the whole nazi deal. And I just go along with it.

Am I or am I not transformed into an actual nazi through this process?

Should or should I not be allowed to experience this?

Finally, should this or should this not be allowed to exist?

EDIT: And just so we're clear, assume I am a well-adjusted adult (I know this is gonna take a bit more imagination).

What we don't have here is the quality of the thing, which is important. The quality which is inherent to it. My American History X example was within the context of that film which has a real self-reflective and challenging quality to it. Carry that over into a game about white supremacy? It says something interesting.

I guess my point (based on Hatred) was that if people really find it problematic and off putting then they won't buy it - showing that there is no audience for it nowadays (just like there's practically no audience for Nazi propaganda). But I am taking a liberalist capitalist standpoint here (money is voting) which isn't really something I agree with.

I don't really have an agenda here, btw. I'm just chatting away. Bored at work. I guess, question by question:

Am I or am I not transformed into an actual nazi through this process? - almost definitely not, you're looking at it from a modern-day cultural perspective

Should or should I not be allowed to experience this? - depends on whether you believe in American 'free speech' or not (I don't know if I do)

Finally, should this or should this not be allowed to exist? - I think it should be allowed to. It will be evaluated on its own merits. But again, it's complicated and I'm just spitballing

 

[forknknife]

You can't say with absolute certainty that the player DOES have sexual desires towards this student - that's the point. And since the game itself makes no attempt at making the player character sexually interested in her, that means the game itself is not in the wrong and people are simply having guilt complexes for being attracted to a virtual underaged student.

That's obviously a purposeful decision by the developer to tread on that thin line between date simulator and pseudo-pedo voyeur thing. Again, I dint think this particular game crosses that line but, again, others will do and, if people don't see anything wrong with that i just don't agree with them. That's the debate we're having here.

 

[Dylan]

You can't say with absolute certainty that the player DOES have sexual desires towards this student - that's the point. And since the game itself makes no attempt at making the player character sexually interested in her, that means the game itself is not in the wrong and people are simply having guilt complexes for being attracted to a virtual underaged student.

Maybe in a court of law you're absolutely correct, but are you really going to argue that in a country where the sexualized schoolgirl trope is so ubiquitous that the exploitation of schoolgirls has become a reoccurring problem, that this game was developed with zero of these intentions? Not bloody likely dude.

 

[chillybright]

Op opens a thread to judge other gaffers, gets judged instead.

Also OP cannot tell game from reality, and worries that others cannot either.

Also OP probably has not even played the game in question.

 

[Arc81]

On another spectrum. we have job simulator, bread simulator, goat simulator, surgery simulator.

If GTA have VR what you do in it is your choice isn't it?

 

[packy34]

This is actually a very interesting thought to have, personally.

Assuming the game allows you to do a handful of 100% immoral things amongst a multitude of perfectly fine, innocent stuff, would the game itself be immoral for exisiting, or only the player for taking advantage of it?

Assuming there would be a game that would be a perfect simulation of the real world, like the matrix, that allows you to do absolutely everthing, all the good and the bad stuff.

Would the developer be immoral for making a game such as detailed as that, giving you the option to even committ to bad stuff? Or only the people using these options?

A game like that would upon release be demonized. A decade or so down the line, though, it would begin to be recognized as high art and pointed to as an example of what this medium is exclusively capable of, relative to other currently existing forms of entertainment media.