My Beef with Summer Lesson

I think Summer Lesson is pretty tame and boring. Not sure why it warrants such an elaborate discussion, but hey I guess that's how it is nowadays.

It really doesn't. A lot of opinions stated here are based on old marketing material, hearsay or just purely "tales from the ass" speculation. Maybe when the DLC releases there will be some more valid points made about the game, but right now it's just a raise a character game that allows for some awkward invasion of personal space situations and at worst some creepy ogling if the player is into that kind of stuff.
 
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Oops. Forgot to mention that in context of those studies posted by Besada. If that isn't enough proof for you, I'd like to see hypotheticals about it regardless.

(I am undecided on if it hurts or indirectly protects more people or not)
 
I'm not because I've seen multiple studies on pedophiliac usage of child porn as a primer, as well as having read the testimony of a number of convicted pedophiles who said that usage of pedophiliac porn increased their desires and decreased their impulse control.

Besada posted info that shows that itwould actually encourage bad behavior.

There are similarly studies that suggest the opposite. Conflicting reports can make it easy to call both sides inconclusive.

The stigma surrounding the subject is going to make it difficult to come to any sort of conclusion due to the unwillingness to research it. Right now the most we can do is analyze the possibiliites;

shamelessly stolen from Wikipedia said:
. Viewing child pornography increases the likelihood of an individual committing child sexual abuse. Reasons include that the pornography normalizes and/or legitimizes the sexual interest in children, as well as that pornography might eventually cease to satisfy the user.

. Viewing child pornography decreases the likelihood of an individual committing child sexual abuse. Reasons are that the pornography acts as a substitute for actual offenses. Simulated child pornography is suggested as an alternative so that real children are not harmed.

. There is no correlation between viewing child pornography and acts of child sexual abuse, or that available evidence is insufficient to draw any conclusions at all.

And let me just make it clear that I would have no problem outlawing such things if the first bullet point ends up being an absolute truth. I don't think we'll be able to conclude that with any degree of certainty for a while though, which is a massive shame as the longer the research takes, the more victims there will be.

Edit: And let me further make it clear that I'm ONLY talking about SIMULATED child pornography here. I believe any beneficial aspects of REAL cp has been debunked and its consumption creates demand, which only furthers the amount of cases.
 
As to the God/Gears of War stuff, those games are based around a completely fantastical scenario, one that a person could not reasonably emulate. There are plenty of more outlandish hentai games and those are placed off in the fantasy bucket.

Recall the game "Hatred," which got a lot of press and discussion on GAF and was pulled from Steam at one point. For those that don't know, it was a twin-stick shooter about a trench-coat clad maniac PC whose goal it was to mow down hundreds of people I the streets. It separated itself from GoW because it was analogous to something someone could actually do, in a venue and scenario that is reflective of real world events.

Summer Lesson seems "creepier" than a lot of other hentai games [edit: I mean hentai games contrasted to SL] also depicting teen girls, because the scenario of being a tutor alone in a girl's room is something that is reflective of the real world. It moves from an escapist fantasy to aspirational.
 
As to the God/Gears of War stuff, those games are based around a completely fantastical scenario, one that a person could not reasonably emulate. There are plenty of more outlandish hentai games and those are placed off in the fantasy bucket.

Recall the game "Hatred," which got a lot of press and discussion on GAF and was pulled from Steam at one point. For those that don't know, it was a twin-stick shooter about a trench-coat clad maniac PC whose goal it was to mow down hundreds of people I the streets. It separated itself from GoW because it was analogous to something someone could actually do, in a venue and scenario that is reflective of real world events.

Summer Lesson seems "creepier" than a lot of other hentai games also depicting teen girls, because the scenario of being a tutor alone in a girl's room is something that is reflective of the real world. It moves from an escapist fantasy to aspirational.

This isn't a hentai game, though. There's literally nothing sexual you can do with her, no kissing or groping or anything. If someone bought this hoping to jerk off (which they wouldn't if they had any sense, since it has a 12+ age rating) they'd be incredibly disappointed.
 
My whole thought process of watching someone play this game was: if there would be actual sex involved it wouldn't be as creepy as it is now. Or even if you were actually tutoring her somehow and that would be the game.
But no, the game is to get very close with this teenage girl and care about her personal day-to-day activities, problems and interests while she's subtly flirting with you.

It probably doesn't help that I'm actually tutoring, but it's just extremely off-putting to me.
Thank you for making this thread and expressing yourself so well, because I couldn't.

edit: How many posts are in here saying "it's actually tame" when the whole thread isn't really about sex anyway?

Well the OP himself made a comaprion to a rape sim sooo....
 
This isn't a hentai game, though. There's literally nothing sexual you can do with her, no kissing or groping or anything. If someone bought this hoping to jerk off (which they wouldn't if they had any sense, since it has a 12+ age rating) they'd be incredibly disappointed.

I meant hentai games as a contrast to this game, not that this game is literally porn, sorry if I was unclear.
 
Here's a correlation (but not necessarily causation) example. Child sexual abuse cases decreased DRAMATICALLY in Japan with the introduction of wide availability of simulated child pornography.

But again, more research needs to be done.

And why the hell is this thread about child porn now?

it turns that way alot of the time. Could be worse, we used to have posters outright call people pedos in off-topic.
 
Oops. Forgot to mention that in context of those studies posted by Besada. If that isn't enough proof for you, I'd like to see hypotheticals about it regardless.

(I am undecided on if it hurts or indirectly protects more people or not)

Aha, no problem. That was just a weird turn of phrase. I'm of the thought that I don't care what media someone consumes unless it was directly harmful to another person. I don't think judging someone based on what fictional media they consume will get anyone anywhere positively.
 
This game seems no diff then a GF cosplaying for me. Except I'm lucky that I have/had a GF, I'm lucky that she would engage my fantasies, I'm lucky that she is what I consider "hot". Some guys are not that lucky and if this game gives them some of that experience I can't knock it for that.
 
This is a really weird point. People being interested in a potentially revolutionary bit of technology makes them alt-right? I'm as left as most of gaf, so it's weird to see accusations like this. Of course I feel like the term alt-right has almost lost all meaning at this point when I see a lot of people being accused as such when they have a single moderate or right-leaning opinion and are total lefties otherwise.

Who said you were the alt-right anime lover I was talking about? Who said I'm the terrible leftie?

I'm just shocked to see that when a japanese game tries to ride the pervy-stalkie-creepie angle and even wears that up its sleeve, people comes up with phrases like "potentionally revolutionary piece of technology" to justify it. And then it follows a strenuous defense against every criticism concerning the context and the opportunity of game like this.
What's the argument against the OP except " it doesn't concern me. I saw worse. It's actually pretty tame. That's like your opinion, man"?

What's the argument in favor of this game? Can't we have the "potentionally revolutionary piece of technology" in something better than this?
 
This game seems no diff then a GF cosplaying for me. Except I'm lucky that I have/had a GF, I'm lucky that she would engage my fantasies, I'm lucky that she is what I consider "hot". Some guys are not that lucky and if this game gives them some of that experience I can't knock it for that.

I love how this post has so little to do with the thread xD
 
This game seems no diff then a GF cosplaying for me. Except I'm lucky that I have/had a GF, I'm lucky that she would engage my fantasies, I'm lucky that she is what I consider "hot". Some guys are not that lucky and if this game gives them some of that experience I can't knock it for that.

This was a weird comment to make...
 
What's the argument in favor of this game? Can't we have the "potentionally revolutionary piece of technology" in something better than this?

Honestly, I don't disagree with you. Something that would further social simulators with something less voyeuristic would be ideal, at least for mass market purposes.

But misrepresenting what the game is about doesn't help anyone's argument. Do I think people are buying this because they're itching to get in on all that epic tutoring action that everyone loves so much? No. Do I think people are buying it because they want to prey on an underage girl and get some action out of it? If so, they'll be damn disappointed.

This is an experience with game elements. It's like an evolution of Love Plus.
 
I'm just shocked to see that when a japanese game tries to ride the pervy-stalkie-creepie angle and even wears that up its sleeve, people comes up with phrases like "potentionally revolutionary piece of technology" to justify it. And then it follows a strenuous defense against every criticism concerning the context and the opportunity of game like this.
What's the argument against the OP except " it doesn't concern me. I saw worse. It's actually pretty tame. That's like your opinion, man"?

What's the argument in favor of this game? Can't we have the "potentionally revolutionary piece of technology" in something better than this?

That it is a game. Just let people play whatever they want without getting judged by those who haven't even played the game yet.

You can criticize the game all you want. But judging those who like it or even play it is just condescending.
 
This game seems no diff then a GF cosplaying for me. Except I'm lucky that I have/had a GF, I'm lucky that she would engage my fantasies, I'm lucky that she is what I consider "hot". Some guys are not that lucky and if this game gives them some of that experience I can't knock it for that.

If that's the post that just earned you your title, that's epic.
 
What's the argument in favor of this game? Can't we have the "potentionally revolutionary piece of technology" in something better than this?

The same one which is valid for every other game in existence - some people might find it enjoyable and if someone doesn't like it they are free to ignore it completely.

Existence of this game has zero impact on having "potentially revolutionary piece of technology in something better" in fact if it succeeds it might open the doors to more ambitious projects.
 
This game seems no diff then a GF cosplaying for me. Except I'm lucky that I have/had a GF, I'm lucky that she would engage my fantasies, I'm lucky that she is what I consider "hot". Some guys are not that lucky and if this game gives them some of that experience I can't knock it for that.
And a tag is born!
 
Alright, there's a ton of excellent and not so excellent points and posts that I want to address, but instead of having a wall of quotes with only half articulated points I'll try to just express my thoughts somewhat cohesively to cover all the basses in between.

First of all, the elephant in the room that a few people seem to be avoiding. Certain thing's can certainly be seen as erotic to a group of people (although that word might even be too strong), and the character is under age. But I don't think that's the primary attraction. The game is designed to push emotional boundaries by messing with the players sense of space, and aims give a feeling of genuine interaction with another person. As some have put it, an interaction simulator. Further, the game gives the player a sense of being relied on and trusted, which is both a strength in the interaction department, and what it seems a lot of people are taking issue with when combined with the "erotic" aspect (but I'll talk about that below). I, and assumedly many others, find those two reasons enough of a reason to buy the game on it's own. Feeling depended upon and interacting with a video game character is a very neat experience.

The issue that's fueling the debate is of course the implicit feelings of eroticness some of the game is meant to invoke. I'm not unaware of it, and it is entirely correct to say that the idea of interacting with a girl seems more appealing to me than interacting with a guy. The potential problem is of course that the person with which you are interacting is depicted as underage, and some people see that as an issue (ie. they take issue with people buying the game specifically to feel emotions rooted in sexuality ultimately involving a depiction of an underage girl). I'm going to stick my head under a guillotine and say that that's not an issue- Now I can already feel the people bolding the previous 2 lines and posting reaction gifs, so before you do that please at LEAST finish reading the paragraph- It's not an issue PROVIDED there's a proper distinction made between a feeling such emotions from a video game character vs seeking out someone because they are underage. To put it more clearly, provided a person is simply doing it for the little bit of thrill they instinctively feel due to the proximity/etc of a virtual representation of opposite sex, rather than specifically because the actor they are participating with is depicted as underage (and this would be bad!), then there's no moral/legal problem as far as I can see. And as a further aside: being desired, even if you would clearly never even consider pursuing a relationship, feels nice.

You might next raise the objection, "But what about older people who specifically ARE using the game as a way to ogle underage schoolgirls?" I'd respond, "so?" There certainly going to be a small subset of people like that, and it really comes down to the whole 'Nazi's drank water, Nazi's are bad, thus drinking water is bad' fallacy. The number of people who will do this, especially with a limited, frankly overpriced all ages game like this is probably extremely small regardless, and even for the few that do it's not really going to cause any problems (unless you can come up with some, I'm definitely willing to change my position if you can come up with something concrete).

One of the mods raised an excellent study about how predators use child porn in the grooming process to try to normalize their actions, which in no way applies to this game as it, at "worst", normalizes leaning your head close to someone so you can read over their shoulder.

There was a few posters also talking about how the game was a (non-sexual) grooming simulator that put you in a position of power. The position of power of tenuous (You the player aren't handing out grades, just helping to prepare for a test. You don't really have any power over her) and the "grooming" aspect is literally just teaching them school work. You're not deciding how they should act or treat you, your involvement in the characters "shaping" goes barely as far as whether they learn math or english that day.

Oh and I just refreshed the OP to see the update. That analogy is laughable, and in no way describes the game. The goal of the game isn't to sit there and stare at her, it's to help her get a good grade.

And after all that, of course you can find it creepy. You set the bar for what you find creepy, and this probably falls well into that category for a number of people. But keep in mind that other people might play/see the game in a very different way than you do.

Let's see, I think I had more I wanted to mention but that should be good for now. Hope that mishmash of thoughts is understandable.

EDIT:
Oh, and I know it's a very small minority, but I need to thank the posters who were comparing this to a rape sim. I had a good laugh.
 
That it is a game. Just let people play whatever they want without getting judged by those who haven't even played the game yet.

You can criticize the game all you want. But judging those who like it or even play it is just condescending.

Again, who judged who? I frankly don't understand why people need to raise such a shield against any criticism and cry for an unfair treatment that simply didn't happen. I went into the thread expecting a series of "japan is gonna japan" replies. Instead wow, I was greeted by the unexpected Summer Lessons Defense Force, whose arguments I could not identify nor comprehend, except that someone was trying to spoil their fun.

I don't need to play the game to form an opinion about its themes. They marketed the game clearly. People should not go for such weak defenses and, I don't know, embrace the weirdness (a la mr. mosquito)? I really cannot imagine how that would be possible, but it would sound more sincere to me that shrugging it off, because everyone here has seen worst, or try to justify it because it's VR.
 
edit: including this later post in the OP to try to clarify where I think the moral ambiguity stems from:

So here's a real-world example.

Say a 16 year old girl gets a job in an office building. She happens to be very attractive, and her supervisor notices this. The supervisor has lunch with his two male colleagues and says "Hey, you have to see the new intern. She's a knockout."

The supervisor decides to call a meeting with the girl and his colleagues that afternoon about "scheduling". The meeting actually has no real purpose; it's simply intended for the two other men to get a look at the girl. There is no cat calling or groping, everything is done professionally. The meeting ends, and everyone goes back to work.

Is what happened here ethical? Was the girl taken advantage of, in a way that was non-consensual, even if she was totally unaware of the motivations of the men?

I argue that Summer Lesson comes much closer to simulating this example. So is it OK because video game? The girl doesn't actually exist, so no harm done right? But again, I don't give it a free pass. I still think it's valid to question a game that is designed to evoke this type of motivation by the player. I also think it's valid to question why people would want to experience it in the first place.

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Seriously OP, this is beyond reaching.

Again, who judged who? I frankly don't understand why people need to raise such a shield against any criticism and cry for an unfair treatment that simply didn't happen. I went into the thread expecting a series of "japan is gonna japan" replies. Instead wow, I was greeted by the unexpected Summer Lessons Defense Force, whose arguments I could not identify nor comprehend, except that someone was trying to spoil their fun.

If you have actually read OP and his subsequent posts, you will see that OP posted because he/she clearly cannot stand there are so many are looking forward to play this game, and also thinks you have a problem if you decide to buy 10 boxes of Twinkies.

If I see someone walk out of the grocery store with 10 boxes of Twinkies my initial reaction is "if that were me I'd feel embarrassed".
 
When it's a fake girl made up of polygons, there absolutely is.
This argument makes no sense whatsoever as it implies that media has no effect on an individual or society. Just to reiterate, the medium, (mediums if we count anime as it's just as bad at objectifying women), where women have been objectified for decades spawned a hate group dedicated to specifically harassing women in the industry who have an opinion, and spawned a less hateful group by normalizing behavior like online harassment, say getting online in a multiplayer game and daring to speak. This is no coincidence, it's a result of how the industry has treated one gender over the other.


Do you teach kids in Japan?
Has absolutely nothing to do with the thread whatsoever.

Edit: Just to make it clear, I'm not being serious with that last question. I agree that the appeal of this game is absolutely NOT the tutoring aspect. However, that isn't to say the sexual aspect is the main appeal either, or at least is the only way to enjoy it. As I've said before, this is a fascinating bit of technology and a great step in the right direction for social interaction simulators. If it was flat out porn, we'd be having a different discussion.[/QUOTE]
It's a grooming simulator, there's nothing fascinating about normalizing abusive pedophilic-lite relationships.

Criticism of criticism is also valid, and some of the criticism seems along the lines of "this shouldn't exist" or at the very least shouldn't be at the forefront of new technology. That's even before we get into the gross misrepresentation of what the product actually is, or at least the interpretations of such.

And I mean no offense when I say you're starting to come across as really unhinged in this thread. Maybe take a step back and calm down.
I'm perfectly calm, i'm just irate and upfront, i'm calling the game what it is, i'm not sugarcoating the implications or the purpose. Sorry not sorry.
 
There are similarly studies that suggest the opposite. Conflicting reports can make it easy to call both sides inconclusive.

The stigma surrounding the subject is going to make it difficult to come to any sort of conclusion due to the unwillingness to research it. Right now the most we can do is analyze the possibiliites;



And let me just make it clear that I would have no problem outlawing such things if the first bullet point ends up being an absolute truth. I don't think we'll be able to conclude that with any degree of certainty for a while though, which is a massive shame as the longer the research takes, the more victims there will be.

Edit: And let me further make it clear that I'm ONLY talking about SIMULATED child pornography here. I believe any beneficial aspects of REAL cp has been debunked and its consumption creates demand, which only furthers the amount of cases.
When the science is inconclusive, the evidence I put most weight on is simply rapes per capita, and Japan is pretty much at the bottom of the scoreboard there. And that's despite having plenty of games with underage sexualised virtual characters. I have been unable to find a statistic JUST for sexual child abuse, but I'd be grateful if anyone could find one.
This argument makes no sense whatsoever as it implies that media has no effect on an individual or society. Just to reiterate, the medium, (mediums if we count anime as it's just as bad at objectifying women), where women have been objectified for decades spawned a hate group dedicated to specifically harassing women in the industry who have an opinion, and spawned a less hateful group by normalizing behavior like online harassment, say getting online in a multiplayer game and daring to speak. This is no coincidence, it's a result of how the industry has treated one gender over the other.
You know, while there are certainly a lot of anime objectifying women, I'd say that there are just as many empowering them.

Also, if you're going to say "rape video games make people rape", you're going to have to eat "violent video games make people violent", in which case most of the games we play today shouldn't be allowed, surely.
 
Don't really know how to react to this thread. I mean, is see where you're coming from, but I don't really know if just assuming that everyone who invested in the game is looking to fulfill some kind of fetish is wise...alllthoughhhh, yeah, there's no escaping what's blatantly obvious; the selling point of this game is the young, cute, innocent schoolgirl in a skirt who you get to interact with as if she's sharing a room with you. My guess is that the game is trying to allow the player to step into the world of your typical cliche anime situation with...what we're going to assume is a male, who finds himself in a tutor position with an attractive female, who miraculously has zero self awareness of how attractive she is, or how attracted said tutor is to her.

Anyway, more creepy than the game itself is the fact that this genre is such a pervasive one. I wish Japan never went so hard down that route, but this game is clearly made for its own audience, just like the Dead or Alive or Idolmaster series is made for its own, whatever that audience may be.


I agree with whomever said that if it were an actual dating simulator, it would be way less awkward as a premise. Which sounds funny to suggest, but yeah. Regardless of whatever you actually DO in the game, the cute [likely underaged] schoolgirl is likely why anyone who bought it was interested in the first place.
 
It's a grooming simulator, there's nothing fascinating about normalizing abusive pedophilic-lite relationships.

You really seem to have no idea what this game actually is. You can't "groom" her to do anything, there are pre-selected questions and study activities and stuff. There's no romance or sexual options.
 
When the science is inconclusive, the evidence I put most weight on is simply rapes per capita, and Japan is pretty much at the bottom of the scoreboard there. And that's despite having plenty of games with underage sexualised virtual characters. I have been unable to find a statistic JUST for sexual child abuse, but I'd be grateful if anyone could find one.
I linked a report twice in this thread that showed that the vast majority of cases in Japan are unreported. Japan is not bottom of the barrel, if anything, it's way too normalized over there. Ffs look how long it took them to outlaw child pornography.

You know, while there are certainly a lot of anime objectifying women, I'd say that there are just as many empowering them.
While falling to really age old tropes and the perverse sexualization is only becoming more common as the medium becomes more and more niche and stagnated.

Also, if you're going to say "rape video games make people rape", you're going to have to eat "violent video games make people violent", in which case most of the games we play today shouldn't be allowed, surely.
It's already been perfectly outlined how there is a VAST difference between something like a parkour assassin killing a guard and an almost still life depiction of a scenario that's still way too incredibly common.

You really seem to have no idea what this game actually is. You can't "groom" her to do anything, there are pre-selected questions and study activities and stuff. There's no romance or sexual options.
The implications are there. What part of study activities include being fed by a teenage girl? Or listening to music while uncomfortable close. Neither of those are study activities.
 
I have no actual interest but it would be more interesting if the student's AI reacted realistically (with a range of reactions) and confronted the player depending on if they felt their actions were appropriate or unacceptable. Things would probably would get too real. Otherwise it seems to be only as deep as a tech demo.

Vaguely reminds me of a piece I saw recently on using VR to teach and improve social interaction among kids with social anxiety.
 
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If you have actually read OP and his subsequent posts, you will see that OP posted because he/she clearly cannot stand there are so many are looking forward to play this game, and also thinks you have a problem if you decide to buy 10 boxes of Twinkies.

Actually I said I thought that GAF generally speaking a livbral-progressive hive-mind (not saying I'm actually happy about that), and I found really strange to find so many defensive posts about this kind of game here. And people felt judged by that, maybe you feel judged by me too.

But it's ok really, like what you like. Just beware that that weird twinkie remark by the OP doesn't automatically disprove his argument about this game being kinda not ok by most people's standard of conduct around young girls and women in general (mine included). I guess OP's point was to call for some argument explaining why this was ok, and he got some actual well-articulated responses in the later pages (I don't agree but I can see some merit in them), but he also got some unexpected vitriol.
 
Agree with all points in the OP.

But a lot of people see "nothing wrong" in something like this thanks to how fucked up the world is.
 
This argument makes no sense whatsoever as it implies that media has no effect on an individual or society. Just to reiterate, the medium, (mediums if we count anime as it's just as bad at objectifying women), where women have been objectified for decades spawned a hate group dedicated to specifically harassing women in the industry who have an opinion, and spawned a less hateful group by normalizing behavior like online harassment, say getting online in a multiplayer game and daring to speak. This is no coincidence, it's a result of how the industry has treated one gender over the other.

It's interesting that you invoke Gamergate when the most recent victim of it was a proponent of these types of games and content who was attacked for precisely that reason.

The movement is a fringe element of nerd culture that represents a hostile environment not totally specific to the content being created.

I'm perfectly calm, i'm just irate and upfront, i'm calling the game what it is, i'm not sugarcoating the implications or the purpose. Sorry not sorry.

What's there to be irate about? People having different interpretations of a game you never played?

And if you're incapable of seeing the other side of the argument and feel the need to resort to personal attacks or an abrasive tone, I'd hardly call that calm. But you do you.
 
The implications are there. What part of study activities include being fed by a teenage girl? Or listening to music while uncomfortable close. Neither of those are study activities.

Uncomfortable for who? If you actually played the game or watched a translated playthrough you'd know that you're wrong, but I don't expect you to. There's no point in continuing this conversation if you legitimately think it's a "grooming" simulator when the fact of the matter is that it's not, no mater how much you might think it is due to not actually being aware of the game's contents.
 
It's interesting that you invoke Gamergate when the most recent victim of it was a proponent of these types of games and content who was attacked for precisely that reason.

The movement is a fringe element of nerd culture that represents a hostile environment not totally specific to the content being created.
It's still a result of the way the gaming industry was treated specifically as a boy's club by devs and publishers. And started as and continues to be a slut shaming campaign.

What's there to be irate about? People having different interpretations of a game you never played?
People bullshitting around what the intent of the game is. Here's a few gifs.

Yea cause when I think of teaching, I think of a teenage girl standing or sitting that close, being fed by them, and making eye contact while listening to music with the same headphones. It certainly doesn't have any real life connotations whatsoever. Certainly not of an authoritative figure and an under age girl. /s This game has some of the most transparent implications i've seen since Leon the Professional, (who's director was a straight up pedophile btw). Ffs the Japanese audience is completely honest about what the implications, and so is the marketing, yet for some reason people ITT are afraid to call a duck a duck.

Uncomfortable for who? If you actually played the game or watched a translated playthrough you'd know that you're wrong, but I don't expect you to. There's no point in continuing this conversation if you legitimately think it's a "grooming" simulator when the fact of the matter is that it's not, no mater how much you might think it is due to not actually being aware of the game's contents.
Gifs don't lie.
 
Yea cause when I think of teaching, I think of a teenage girl standing or sitting that close, being fed by them, and making eye contact while listening to music with the same headphones. It certainly doesn't have any real life connotations whatsoever. Certainly not of an authoritative figure and an under age girl. /s This game has some of the most transparent implications i've seen since Leon the Professional, (who's director was a straight up pedophile btw). Ffs the Japanese audience is completely honest about what the implications, and so is the marketing, yet for some reason people ITT are afraid to call a duck a duck.


Gifs don't lie.
Why instantly latch onto this idea that the player character is an older teacher? What if you're playing as a classmate? Male or female? It's not specified. Would the context of a female classmate make it more acceptable to you? You're building this weird pedo narrative up in your own mind, and losing your shit over it.
 
Gifs don't lie.

These gifs convinced me that by real life standards, the game is NOT solely about tutoring (not that I claim that translates immediately to any sexual implication on the game's part).

...They also sold me on the game. I really want to play it now.

Gifs do not lie, indeed.
 
Why instantly latch onto this idea that the player character is an older teacher? What if you're playing as a classmate? Male or female? It's not specified. Would the context of a female classmate make it more acceptable to you? You're building this weird pedo narrative up in your own mind, and losing your shit over it.
She constantly refers to you as sensei, when do tutors and classmates get referred to as sensei? (They don't). And get out of here with that "but what if you're playing a female" bullshit. There's is absolutely NO indication whatsoever that you're playing as a woman. Don't come in here and try to spin this shit Yasumi, seriously, that's is next level spinning, more so than even the "but it's just a game about teaching" shit. Gifs don't lie. Do you know how long animation takes? The devs knew exactly what they were doing. You know EXACTLY who the target audience is and what the "fantasy" is. If it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, and the mother duck of said duck is also calling it a duck, (the devs and Japanese audience), it's probably a duck.
 
She constantly refers to you as sensei, when do tutors and classmates get referred to as sensei? (They don't). And get out of here with that "but what if you're playing a female" bullshit. There's is absolutely NO indication whatsoever that you're playing as a woman. Don't come in here and try to spin this shit Yasumi, seriously, that's is next level spinning, more so than even the "but it's just a game about teaching" shit. Gifs don't lie. Do you know how long animation takes? The devs knew exactly what they were doing. You know EXACTLY who the target audience is and what the "fantasy" is. If it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, and the mother of said duck is also calling it a duck, (the devs and Japanese audience), it's probably a duck.

By that logic, isn't there also absolutely no indicator that the protagonist is a man?
 
By that logic, isn't there also absolutely no indicator that the protagonist is a man?
The game is being solely marketed to men. I'm seriously not gonna bother responding to you if you're gonna continue arguing that the devs, publisher, and marketing team had a female audience in mind whatsoever while making this game. They absolutely did not, period.
 
I linked a report twice in this thread that showed that the vast majority of cases in Japan are unreported. Japan is not bottom of the barrel, if anything, it's way too normalized over there. Ffs look how long it took them to outlaw child pornography.

Explain the decrease in reported child sexual abuse cases when simulated CP became readily available. Or any other study that suggests the relationship between pedophiles/potential predators and cp as a positive one in this thread, which is no less valid than what you posted.

Under reporting is absolutely a thing in Japan, and its worse than many other developed countries. But at the same time, reporting is still very much encouraged. You remember that whole Sonic Sez meme with Sonic telling people about touching not being okay? Japan has that in spades. So while under reporting is still a thing due to the culture, the amount of under reporting that would have to take place for it to be comparable to other developed countries on child sexual abuse cases (ESPECIALLY America) would be a ludicrous number that doesn't represent any realistic widespread reaction of humanity even in a "don't rock the boat culture".

Not to say there aren't other problems; there absolutely are. Enjo Kosai is a disgusting practice and its tolerance is pretty damn bad.

So that brings us to the discussion of whether further normalization (but not total normalization as it's still rightfully stigmatized) and the harmful sub cultures that prop up from them like Enjo Kosai, but potentially less victims is worse, or pushing those with deviant attractions underground potentially leading to more victims is worse. My opinion is the former.

As for them actually outlawing real CP, it should be noted that rather than tolerance about it, it was more stupidity on the parts of those that set the legislature. Production and distribution was banned in 1999, assuming that would kind of just make it stop. But that doesn't work when possession isn't banned.

It's still a result of the way the gaming industry was treated specifically as a boy's club by devs and publishers. And started as and continues to be a slut shaming campaign.

And once again, it's a fringe, something that can grow out of the most minor problematic aspect of, well, ANY part of life or industry.

People bullshitting around what the intent of the game is. Here's a few gifs.

I'm not sure how seeing something different from what you see gives you the right to insult people. Those gifs are pretty damn innocuous IMO.

She constantly refers to you as sensei, when do tutors and classmates get referred to as sensei? (They don't).

Huh? They absolutely do. Though maybe it's different in Osaka? Either way, a lot of your arguments are coming from a place of ignorance in general. I again advise you to calm down, take a step back and maybe do a bit of research.
 
By that logic, isn't there also absolutely no indicator that the protagonist is a man?

I think we're getting a little off-track here. It's easy to assume that the primary audience for this game are the otaku-types who would become excited at the idea of being alone with an attractive high school girl. If we want to base arguments on why that's an okay idea for a game, I think that's at least an honest debate to have. But that's definitely why this game was made.
 
The game is being solely marketed to men. I'm seriously not gonna bother responding to you if you're gonna continue arguing that the devs, publisher, and marketing team had a female audience in mind whatsoever while making this game. They absolutely did not, period.

Considering Harada plans on putting men in, I wouldn't be so sure. The fujoshi market is pretty damn lucrative.
 
It is a Japanese game designed for Japan.

If anyone has lived in Japan they know exactly how the 'norm' there is different to the US. *(And there are groups there that are working to change that norm).

But for now, Vive la differance and all that stuff. It is transparently clear who this game was designed to appeal to and how it is designed to appeal. There is no mystery to it. You can make a long dissertation about it, as though it is trying to hide its intentions, but it is obvious from the front cover.

Do we want to live in a world where every country is homogenised to the same set of standards? Or impose US FCC morality on other cultures? I don't even know if Summer Lesson is coming to the West. If it is, it should be judged and criticised there alone, leaving the Japanese edition to be dealt with by Japanese consumers.
 
Considering Harada plans on putting men in, I wouldn't be so sure. The fujoshi market is pretty damn lucrative.

I agree with that but the Hikari version we have now is pretty much the "girlfriend experience" VR edition.

I do believe it is heteronormative to think it can only catter to men but it was definitely DESIGNED for men.
 
I agree with that but the Hikari version we have now is pretty much the "girlfriend experience" VR edition.

I do believe it is heteronormative to think it can only catter to men but it was definitely DESIGNED for men.

Oh absolutely in its current state. I just meant going forward.

I'm not sure why "it was designed for men" is a talking point on either side tbh.
 
Explain the decrease in reported child sexual abuse cases when simulated CP became readily available. Or any other study that suggests the relationship between pedophiles/potential predators and cp as a positive one in this thread, which is no less valid than what you posted.
First of all can I get a source for that second of all what part of unreported don't you understand?

Under reporting is absolutely a thing in Japan, and its worse than many other developed countries. But at the same time, reporting is still very much encouraged.
Reporting isn't encouraged due to the following

An abiding sense of shame and victim-blaming within Japanese culture prevents many girls from coming forward

Similar to here, (rape culture is absolutely a thing), but the fact that Japan is WAY behind in terms of the treatment of women, (underage women especially since we legit have dudes trying to argue that simulated CP is A-ok), makes things like this worse. They already have it bad enough yet devs think it's a good idea to produce shit like this.

You remember that whole Sonic Sez meme with Sonic telling people about touching not being okay? Japan has that in spades.
So do we, except at the same time there's also a borderline industry based off of the exploitation of underage women.

So while under reporting is still a thing due to the culture, the amount of under reporting that would have to take place for it to be comparable to other developed countries on child sexual abuse cases (ESPECIALLY America) would be a ludicrous number that doesn't represent any realistic widespread reaction of humanity even in a "don't rock the boat culture".
"Hey it could be worse" is not as a good excuse while coming to the defense of something that's further normalizing a very real cultural issue.

Not to say there aren't other problems; there absolutely are. Enjo Kosai is a disgusting practice and its tolerance is pretty damn bad.


So that brings us to the discussion of whether further normalization (but not total normalization as it's still rightfully stigmatized) and the harmful sub cultures that prop up from them like Enjo Kosai, but potentially less victims is worse, or pushing those with deviant attractions underground potentially leading to more victims is worse. My opinion is the former.
Further normalization is wrong in every shape and form,


As for them actually outlawing real CP, it should be noted that rather than tolerance about it, it was more stupidity on the parts of those that set the legislature. Production and distribution was banned in 1999, assuming that would kind of just make it stop. But that doesn't work when possession isn't banned.
It's still way behind the times, how it took almost two decades to fully outlaw, (while arguing artistic freedom since simulated is still allowed when the CPPA rightfully banned that as well), is absolutely disgusting.

And once again, it's a fringe, something that can grow out of the most minor problematic aspect of, well, ANY part of life or industry.
And it's still a huge issue. Bigger than it absolutely should be. And evidently not improving.

I'm not sure how seeing something different from what you see gives you the right to insult people. Those gifs are pretty damn innocuous IMO.
I've not insulted a single person unless they're offended by me calling a duck a duck.
 
Certainly not of an authoritative figure and an under age girl. /s
Remove the /s for that part. There is no indication of the player avatar being anything more than a tutor and tutors have zero authority over their pupils. Her using the title Sensei is more or less just an indication that you are not a close acquaintance and that you are there to teach her shit. In that context, it has zero indication of you being a person of authority or of higher social standing compared to her. Instead, it merely means that your avatars grasp of the subject of the lessons is superior to hers.
 
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Seriously OP, this is beyond reaching.



If you have actually read OP and his subsequent posts, you will see that OP posted because he/she clearly cannot stand there are so many are looking forward to play this game, and also thinks you have a problem if you decide to buy 10 boxes of Twinkies.
The Twinkie comment put me overboard. I was going to comment on the original post but that comment was so absurd and condescending that it doesn't even deserve a response. OP isn't judgmental but beware if you're food shopping in his vicinity.
 
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