Psycho_Mantis
Banned
No way. Oro was THE villain of the series tbh. Only one who came close was Madara after that.
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Naruto Manga |OT2| Not A Romance Manga
- Thread starter SolVanderlyn
- Start date
No way. Oro was THE villain of the series tbh. Only one who came close was Madara after that.
Such as?
JadedWriter
Member
Orochimaru stopped being a villain the minute Itachi hoovered his ass into a fucking pot with his sword.
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
He was fine as a one-off villain. He overstayed his welcome... by a lot.
JadedWriter
Member
And now nobody even knows what gender he is.
TheRealTalker
Banned
even OP follows patterns and repetation
plus Oda is occasionally bad at pacing
but OP>>>Naruto
this is all in consideration since old Shonen and current Seinen are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the so called "BIG 3"
plus Oda is occasionally bad at pacing
but OP>>>Naruto
this is all in consideration since old Shonen and current Seinen are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the so called "BIG 3"
Eh nah there's a ton of shit in all worlds.
I've read a shitton of old shonen and I'd still rank One Piece over a good majority of them. Really even Naruto is better than Dragonball and Naruto is a C tier series at best imo.
Seinen is a bit different cause there's a LOT of shit in seinen to cover ranging from random slice-of-life series that appeal to otaku (most of these are shit) to the darker manga that try to be realistic (most of these are good) to the one made purely for shock value yet have no elements that really distinct them from the average shonen manga other than gore and sex (Gantz, Terraformars).
I mean, pretty much everything in Naruto remains related to the core stuff introduced in the beginning. The Nine Tails is on the first page, the Sharingan is in the first arc. Akatsuki and even Madara are introduced in Part 1.
JadedWriter
Member
I'm waiting for someone to post "Naruto is better than Berserk."
Yeah but even Bleach keeps a similar core focus. Doesn't mean it didn't go off the rails there. You can keep established plot elements throughout the entire manga and still go nowhere with it.
I haven't read Berserk but if it's anything like Dark Souls............
Naruto >>Berserk
Seriously though, I'm a Zelda fanboy through and through.The fundamental structural similarities between Zelda and Naruto is why I like the series so much.
Eh....... I mean in the most broad sense of the meaning sure........Ichigo is the main character, fights dead things and...?
The manga keeps core elements such as the bankai, the Quincy and Shinigami conflict, Ichigo's friends staying consistently his friends, and etc. I'm saying that's comparable to what the person listed there, but that doesn't suddenly make those elements actually have meaning to them. In One Piece when a story element is introduced it pretty much gets developed and expanded upon consistently throughout the series while tending to leave room for more. In Naruto, when the backstory for the Sharingan is explained, there's several different flashbacks detailing the same subject matter that could effectively end that backstory there with no loose ends. However Kishimoto is insistent on adding more layers onto it for no reason hence why we get shit like Kaguya. Stuff like that was never really established or even hinted at until they were introduced to the series, despite being so important to the lore.
To step back a bit, I don't agree with that plotline chart posted earlier at all. It's like I'm reading a different series than everyone else. I'm not going to defend Kaguya, she is Eva crazy anime ending to a "T". But the series uses similar motifs and themes expressed through characters, actions, and ideologies across the entire series. Did Kishi fudge some details or open up some plot holes along the way? Sure. But to say where Naruto went wasn't a direct result to where it come from, that it's plot lines just shoot off into nowhere never to return, is crazy talk.
I'd be interested in a plot line example from OP that follows the bolded. My run through OP is more scattered than I would have liked so the details escape me from time to time.
There are multiple examples in One Piece. I mean stuff like the character's dreams, the existence of Devil Fruits, the Marines, and etc. are all elements that are consistently carried over from the beginning. Do you mean specific plot details? Cause there's a shitton of those. The origins of Devil Fruits, the Void Century, the Will of D., the One Piece, and etc. are just some off the top of my head. There's even more than that.
I mean you could only really argue that Kaguya was introduced like this. What else about the lore was introduced at the last minute?
The existence of the Sage of the Six Paths was also completely unnecessary as well, despite being added much earlier. With something like the Sharingan it's like the "Uchiha's special power/trait" wasn't just enough, it HAS to be something related to ninja gods from space. In Naruto everything that Kishimoto wants to be significant, has to be more than what it was originally established as being.
I dont get your point.
I mean you could argue about certain things not being necessary to any story.
As far as Hagoromo, he pretty much ties up every major element of lore in this world. Bijuus, chakra, dojutsu etc. Its kinda nonsensical to point at him as just the origin of the sharingan or whatever.
DryEyeRelief
Member
It's easy to say Orochimaru is the best villain in the series when you think most of Shippuden is bad.
most of Shippuden is bad
From the very beginning, Naruto is a series that places great importance on bloodlines, lineage, clans, family, and country. The series constantly is looking backwards to previous 3-man teams, Hokages, and eras to contrast the present. As naturally as the series engages in the connection between Naruto and his teacher ( who was taught by his father, who is taught by his current mentor, who was taught by the current sitting Hokage) it also engages in Sasuke and his lineage back through history. Creating a character who lived long ago that is the intersection of their two lineages isn't crazy. Nor is the fact that if the two greatest clans powers existed in one person, that guy would be crazy strong.
What I'm saying is that all of that stuff doesn't have to be "special" and while it's nice to learn the origins of those powers, it really makes them on a higher emphasis over anything else in the series. Why is the Sharingan anymore important than the Byakugan? What was the entire purpose of introducing the Rinnegan? Kishi just continued adding layers and layers to things that didn't really need it, and he topped it all off with Kaguya, lol. By saying, out of nowehere, "All this ninja shit? It comes from aliens." The Sharingan would've been fine JUST being a special Uchiha power, it didn't have to be this super important plot element. The fact that it was, however, made all the other various ninja arts in the series less important.
But again, why is Naruto and Sasuke's bloodlines the only ones that are special other than they are the main characters in the series? It just diminishes everything else in the series.
The thing with Naruto and villains is that there basically are no real villains. Nearly every antagonist had semi-justifiable motives and reasoning.
Its like being mad that Goku didnt remain about equal to Krillin in strength.
And honestly, I think it gets lost on people that not every Uchiha was Madara or Sasuke.
This seems pretty petty. I get that you don't like certain people or powers getting shine over others but that doesnt make it bad.
Its like being mad that Goku didnt remain about equal to Krillin in strength.
And honestly, I think it gets lost on people that not every Uchiha was Madara or Sasuke.
AntraxSuicide
Banned
I mean, this is one of the elements of the series that's actually kind of realistic? Not everyone matters in a broad sense. Some people are more important than others, and Naruto/Sasuke are those people. To take it back further, if this series took place in the past, it would just feature the Sage's kids instead. And it would be clear that they're the main characters for the same reason that characters like Simba in The Lion King are more important than the comic relief.
I also don't really see the difference in One Piece since it's likely that the Will of D is going to end up being a Sharingan-type deal where those characters are just stronger than everyone else for some reason. I totally trust that Oda's going to have a decent answer, but it'll still just be pulled out to make certain characters better than others. This is not unique to Naruto, or even a bad thing.
...But I am mad about that, lol. I still think Dragonball would be better if the characters didn't get power creeper so hard. Naruto on the other hand takes it a whole not her level by directly tying it to series lore. How stupid would it be if the Saiyans turned out to be the ones that created the Super Dragonballs? Naruto does that for both the Uchiha and Uzumako clans.
1. That's one of the neat things about the series. It's about the Uchiha bloodline and the Senju's extended family (aka people with the Will of Fire). The dichotomy between a people who gain power through direct succession and the people who put their faith in others, and grow powerful from community.
2. So really the Naruto's path back through history is one based on people who shared similar ideals or spirit. Aka ANYONE could step up and be a "Naruto". Minato, Jiraiya, Obito, Hiruzen, Bee were all "Naruto"s in their own time or places. Oh, and it just so happens that Naruto specializes in forming bonds with people who are downtrodden like him. And as the series moves on more and more people like and unlike Naruto follow him and his message. Naruto's fight becomes everyone's fight.
In the end, even if what you say is true, how does your Sage of 6 Paths example not point to a plot structure more similar to that OP graph. You may not like where the plot line goes, but it does point to a structure that branches to fill out the world does it not?
DryEyeRelief
Member
You are making a legitimate point. A major character's in the series defining characteristic is borrowing the Sharingan.
Danzo was alright.
Him and Obito being final villains would have been ok with me.
My opinion has always been Obito should have been working on his own, and when Kabuto summoned Madara, he would have joined the Ninja alliance just because he was so pissed some punk ass crybaby was using his name.
That way we could have got Madara beasting on people with out it destroying any sense the story made.
Him and Obito being final villains would have been ok with me.
My opinion has always been Obito should have been working on his own, and when Kabuto summoned Madara, he would have joined the Ninja alliance just because he was so pissed some punk ass crybaby was using his name.
That way we could have got Madara beasting on people with out it destroying any sense the story made.
There is no way to keep up with a race that can increase their power level by 10 TIMES!!! when they LOSE!
On Namek, Vegeta's power level increases from 24K to 250K just by getting beat up by Zarbon and Racoon!!! No way to catch up with that. There is only so much latent every the elderly can draw out.
TheRealTalker
Banned
I went over the top there but I agree with you
there are a ton of crap you need to get through and even some that are literally hollow shells like Terraformars but some Seinen are the shit (in a good way)
I still overly like OP though
The Silver
Member
I wish he was never Obito, or at least never confirmed it. I liked the notion he was literally just some random nobody who conned everyone and stole all his powers. He was the embodiment of the darkness of the Naruto world, no connections, no identity, no face, intangible, the ultimate ninja.
Ya, this too.
Masked man should have just been a random.
He was great until his mask came off.
JadedWriter
Member
I think I just kind of realized that Obito is Kishi's version of Shinobu Sensui, with the caveat being Kishi failed fucking horribly, like immensely fucking horribly at the fucking execution of that character.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
Kakashi Gaiden for instance. Kaguya's origin more recently. Tbh that image is totally wrong and comes across as someone who has never read the series. There aren't really any side missions in Naruto. Simply multiple paths are shown which are/will eventually head to the same destination.
Berserk has dropped of immensely these days.
Well, one of those is a glacially paced, overedgy rapefest, loli harem, and unfunny comic relief characters doing their routine for hundreds of chapters in one so ...
This is pure nonsense, Naruto has plenty of continuous plot lines introduced in its very first episode, the Nine Tails attack and the sealing mystery, Naruto's parentage, Naruto's wish to become Hokage villagers resentments. Sasuke's storyline leads directly into Uchicha politics, Itachi/Madara/Danzo. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean they don't expand on universe. You can, I'd say rightly, say Oda handles them better because he has much more planned out at the beginning but it doesn't change the fact of their existence which is obvious. Allso OP is still running and nowhere near and closing those plotlines, it's hard to gauge how well they will be handed.
Luffy too is a special snowflake with his parentage and Will of D.
The Silver
Member
Hey Team 7 were indeed horrible in the 5 Kage arc but I wouldn't call it a rapefest
I dunno Karin and Danzo were penetrated aplenty.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
ands lets be honest, the fights in Berserk are shit.
OminoMichelin
Member
Umm who?
I really dont see whats wrong sorry.
I also don't get what youre mad about. You keep focusing on the Sharingan but the whole point of the series was that it didnt matter without cooperation. The people with the eyes were always countered by the people who worked with others. Its never been some unstoppable power.
JadedWriter
Member
This fucking thread. 10 years of Naruto really does warp narrative standards.
I dont think I ever said otherwise. No shit was all the plotlines established early on were carried over into the end. What I'm saying is Naruto really doesn't have something like Shanks using haki in chapter 1 of the series only for it to become an important element later in the series. That's what I mean by carrying things over. Those elements you listed is the equivalent of say...Luffy's dream or the struggle between the Marines and Pirates. No shit will the series carry on elements like that until the end.
Also those aspects don't really give Luffy an advantage over others, it actually gives him the opposite effect by making him the underdog since the world dislikes him so much for being Dragon's don. And the Will of D isn't supposed to be a power with the context it's used in (and if it is, it sucks since most D's die in the series, lol).
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
I think Berserk is really overrated. Not to say it isn't great, but its fanbase is the most rabid group of people I've ever seen. It's no wonder that Berserk inspired Dark Souls, because the fans are the same. Thou shalt not insult nor defile the holy art of Miura.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
uwotm8
Uwotm8
One panel is not a fight. The fights in Berserk are largely Guts powering through while he is able to survive ridiculous wounds for no apparent reason. Its a nice power fantasy but got old pretty quickly, though I understand the show was never really about the fights and respect that.
JadedWriter
Member
At the very least Miura keeps his villains consistent. You're not going to see Griffith as the comic relief hanging out with Isidro asking him if he's got a girlfriend yet like current Orochimaru. Or Slann taking Farnese or Casca shopping.
This is just moving goalposts now, from presence of plotlines like Lost Century, Will of D to just occurrences of foreshadowing which I'll again say, I'll easily grant to Oda but are hardly something you won't see in Naruto.
Also, chapter 1 as an example of that is funny cause Shanks getting his arm eaten by some fish is extremely silly given what we learn about him later. Why didn't he coat his arms in Haki if Oda wanted to actually foreshadow things, what we actually get in chapter 1 is generic killing aura that was only later made part of Haki powers.
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
To be fair, everyone in Naruto was fairly consistent up until the war arc.
I feel like the Five Kage Summit ending -> onward should be totally rewritten, but somehow still include Madara (as the final villain, though) and lead into Boruto. Yes, I want to have my cake and eat it too.
JadedWriter
Member
I mainly meant Berserk didn't shuffle through about 15 different end game villains. The main one that wasn't God Hand related was pretty much just Ganishka and Guts and crew didn't even deal with that guy. Though yeah writing wise Naruto got really wonky when in hit the War arc. Just sort of felt like Kishi was throwing shit at the wall and trying to find something that stuck.
When I was saying "Such as?" I was talking about stuff like the Void Century and the Will of D., not standard plot elements like Devil Fruits, character motvations, and other stuff that compare to what you were listing about Naruto. There isn't really any major lore elements carried in Naruto until nearly end. Hell we really didn't get a whole lot of lore till Part 2 of the series.
As for Shanks losing his arm, it's heavily implied to be intentional in his confrontation with Whitebeard to "invest in the future." which again, is something being carried over throughout the course of the series and actually makes the series more interesting to read because it says there's something more. On the other hand, when Kishi explained the existence of the Sage of Sixth Paths, there was never anything left open and it very well could've been it aka a stopping point. This makes a lot of the lore elements feel hamfisted and made up on the spot in comparison. The only one he really did that with was with Madara.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
Thats because the Godhand are morally 1 dimensional and thats not necessarily a good thing. Really without Griffith and Zodd the villain side of things would be disappointing.
JadedWriter
Member
That's mainly because the God Hand don't really do anything. They can't really be killed, they just get called on to make people Apostles and shit. We still don't seem to know what the hell those guys wants. The only other semi active one is Slann and that's someone you don't want waltzing up to you cause she'll just rape you till you die.
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