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[Fine Ham Abounds]

Omg, we've got cardboard diagrams even

Nice job explaining all that stuff, much appreciated, got a much better idea of what I'm seeing in the videos now

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

Is this an actual term? I should change my name to Mazoge Z, I platinumed that crap

Upon seeing this, I prefer "nonahedoge"

Spoiler

non-hedonist game

Basically its turn based, the divided by line sections on the map = how the game judges distance between characters in the game.

Adjacent squares = melee distance
Example
[Enemy] [Ally Melee]

2 squares away = ranged
Example [ ] = 1 square
[Enemy] [Ally Melee] [Ranged Character]

With the current units, you are unable to bypass sections occupied by an enemy unit and vice versa. Its an important mechanic of the game as it can work for or against you when it comes to how you want to occupy the map.

Also winning in combat with melee units, they will automatically advance to the previously occupied area by the target you just defeated. You can see that occur in the videos I had uploaded.

Attacking enemies consists of attacking solo or as a team by linking attacks. When attacks are linked those are all the lines you see appearing between all parties involved with the attack.

Linking attacks provides bonuses to the attacks which effects are given are displayed constantly moving on the link lines. That can also be seen in the videos I have provided if you look closely at the link lines.

The attack commands also display how many times a character will attack with selected action. You will see a (x #) type of display next to attack icon.

Example (standard attack x 3) which means 3 attacks for the standard attack action.

If you defeat your initial target all remaining actions will be performed against the next valid target in the adjacent zone for melee units.

Ranged units also work the same way. For example the standard ranged attack with the first ranged character you get is 2 shots. If she takes out an enemy unit with the first shot, she will use the second to attack the next valid target as long as her LOS (Line Of Sight) isnt blocked.

Which brings us to ranged units. You must always provide a clear LOS for them or else they will not be able to attack or counter-attack. You apparently can attack your own characters by accident, but only within your own turn. On the times when they will perform an automatic action such as a counter attack, they will not fire if an ally is blocking their LOS.

Combat is also decided by stats basically, so its important to look at your characters ahead of time and know generally what kind of stats they have. But this system can also lead to frustration with moments where most of ones attacks are parried, blocked or dodged. When you target something it also shows the percentages of chance to hit and critical rate, so taking note of those before attacking helps along with HP of your target.

Characters who are able to defend, (currently only types that use shields) will have lowered damage taken when attacks do hit. But if your character manages to block, dodge, parry successfully no damage will be taken.

While all this looks confusing when watching the videos and dont blame any of you who are, as I was uncertain of what was going on from initial vids, when you play it yourself its not all that bad. You will catch on pretty quickly and from there go on the long journey of further understanding the mechanics to help up your survival rate lol

Fwew. That takes a load off of my mind. Most chain dealies in SRPGs either warps the game defenisively to always dealing with it in the most tedious way and it being of minor use to you (Front Mission 4) or completely overshadowing any other strategy or tools in one's arsenal 95% of the time (Gungnir), but this looks freeing rather than chokingly narrow like those. The hype is back on!

 

[Parakeetman]

Omg, we've got cardboard diagrams even

Nice job explaining all that stuff, much appreciated, got a much better idea of what I'm seeing in the videos now

Was making diagrams in a graphics editor before hand, but was too much of a pain in the ass and didnt have the correct tools I wanted to do things quickly. So grabbed parts of the amazon boxes around the desk and a sharpie. lol That and these general principals of the game are a bit too hard to just explain with text alone. When its drawn out it becomes much easier to understand.

Yeah Im pretty sure knowing all of this stuff in advance will make a huge diff for those who plan on picking up this game. As can see folks getting turned off before hand otherwise. As the game really does kick your ass by using literally all the gameplay mechanics against you from the get go.

The tutorial gives you some very basic things then tosses you to the lions with a stick and pot lid.

Just won some insane battle against a ton of goblins, part of it was being a dick too doing some major cheese to even things up. But the game would do the exact same thing if it could Im sure lol. I mean it already was at least over 15+ vs 4. Which means lower those numbers any way possible. I kinda want to reload the save and go in there just to count how many there were. Thank god enemies dont seem to open doors themselves. If they could player would be proper fucked.

Really wished I had recorded that fight since it was insane. You guys would have gone NOPE if you saw the numbers of goblins in there. I was assuming death pretty quick once I saw how the map looked so didnt bother to hit the record button. D:

Upon seeing this, I prefer "nonahedoge"

Spoiler

non-hedonist game

Fwew. That takes a load off of my mind. Most chain dealies in SRPGs either warps the game defenisively to always dealing with it in the most tedious way and it being of minor use to you (Front Mission 4) or completely overshadowing any other strategy or tools in one's arsenal 95% of the time (Gungnir), but this looks freeing rather than chokingly narrow like those. The hype is back on!

Truthfully you will have to play defensively on occasion to allow the enemies to move around a bit or watch what they will do, but at the same time will have to go on the offensive when opportunity presents itself. Such as taking out the next in line enemy on the turn meter. So there is a bit of both going on. Trying to rush into things all the time really will get you killed. Also this game by constantly chaining into attacks will put those characters on standby leaving you with no other ones to execute a new set of action chains for the characters who went in first attacking. Basically the characters who can defend will be your most important pieces of your overall strategy. Healing an ally at a distance can also count as creating an attack chain. So keep that in mind too.

Does create some intense stuff though.

I knew I said I wouldnt upload this yet, but it gives you a pretty good example of how to use the chain action system in the game vs. overwhelming odds.

*dont watch if you want to keep how one way of clearing the first part of the Rank A dungeon fresh.


Also whenever your characters level up remember to put in the skill points, as they are seriously crucial to your survival in the game. It really is cool how you can respec at any time in the world map. Currently have not had the need to, but you know it will be necessary eventually considering they are letting you do it. First thing I did was add some HP to the characters who are usually out in the front. Also upped damage to allow for faster kills from less hits. Which means more potential chance to kill all enemies in an area with the allotted number of attacks.

 

[Alastor3]

Thank you so much Parakeetman for the explanation of the combat!

So im guessing, the multiplayer is a big part of the game right ? like White Knight Chronicles ? I just fear nobody will play this after a few months from it's release...

 

[Parakeetman]

Thank you so much Parakeetman for the explanation of the combat!

So im guessing, the multiplayer is a big part of the game right ? like White Knight Chronicles ? I just fear nobody will play this after a few months from it's release...

I dont really think the MP is a big part of the game. Its just a mode in there to give folks something else to do. WK Chronicles is a whole nother beast in comparison Id have to say.

At least the MP has a co-op type of game mode where can work together on a map against enemies. Instead of just H2H. So am guessing the game modes is determined by whoever makes the room.

Doubt the game has much of an online presence now due to how the game looked. Its not exactly setting the world on fire. I mean look at the thread here for an example. Japanese posts seem to be generally the same with folks either liking or hating it. Or wondering if it will even sell because of how it looks & plays.

---

The following below is just an example of how the chain action system works using defensive abilities. In the game its a bit more complex since you need to calculate into the whole formula the turns of the enemy characters on the map. Thankfully you can keep track of this from the turn order bar on the top of the screen and match up the letter with the enemies on the map. Killing an enemy who has its turn next will erase its spot on the turn order bar allowing for whoever is next in line to move up. Big important concept for when you are trying to push out as many actions as possible with your characters. Esp if you are trying to rush a heavily occupied area to wipe out. This tactic is shown in the "Rank A dungeon first room cleared" video I had uploaded.

Ok need to totally re-do the initial diagram about the whole defense extra turn system. This one while it looks confusing as fuck should be the most correct after having more experience with the game and gaining a better understanding. Before we begin with the explanation of what the hell is scribbled out heres a "key" for all the icons used.

KEY
A, B, C, D = Player Characters
*A, *B = Player Characters with Defensive Skills (As those are what activates the free actions)
Solid Line = Player Movement
Dotted Line = Denoting who is granted a free action from the defensive skill activated by "A or B".

Terminology
Reserve Turn = Action performed when a free action is obtained which keeps your "Turn Icon" where it is at on the "Turn Bar" at the top of the screen. Partaking in a free action will count as an action taken on the turn bar, therefore pushing you further back in the turn rotation.

1: A moves to Square #2 and Defends. Giving free actions to B & D.
2: D takes free action and moves to Square #2.
3: B Reserves Turn not taking the free action, but keeping his place on the "Turn Bar".
4: B takes its normal turn and moves to Square #3 and Defends. Giving free actions to A, B and C.
5: A takes the free action and moves to #4
6: D takes the free action and moves to #4
7: C takes the free action and moves to #5

I could make an even more confusing as fuck diagram with enemy icons included, but will spare everyone the trouble. Dont think I have enough cardboard for that anyways. Watching the last gameplay video is a live example of it in action correctly though.

*Edit

You can also initiate action chains from attacks as long as the attack being made has adjacent friendly characters next to the player or target and is during a normal (non-chain enabled) turn for that character. There is a bit more to it than that, but am sure it should be pretty easy to figure out once you try it. Its useful for doing a simple action as healing a friendly unit at a distance or casting a spell at a target near units that just took their turn and advanced to a new square next to a fresh batch of enemies. Its where the reserve turn action comes in handy to not mess up the order within the turn order bar.

 

[fatgamecat]

Fwew. That takes a load off of my mind. Most chain dealies in SRPGs either warps the game defenisively to always dealing with it in the most tedious way and it being of minor use to you (Front Mission 4) or completely overshadowing any other strategy or tools in one's arsenal 95% of the time (Gungnir)

Kind of off topic but I disagree with both of those. Playing aggressively with links/chain bonuses is very effective in FM4, and there are more effective strats in Gungnir than chaining attacks esp. on Nightmare difficulty.

Natural Doctrine is shaping up to be pretty unique and interesting, with a good focus on strategy. Is it one campaign or are there free battles/grinding?

 

[galvenize]

I'm surprised by the amount of people who are turned off by the graphics of an SRPG.

I bashed it for how it looked on PS4. Doesn't mean I won't like it if the gameplay is solid.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

Was making diagrams in a graphics editor before hand, but was too much of a pain in the ass and didnt have the correct tools I wanted to do things quickly. So grabbed parts of the amazon boxes around the desk and a sharpie. lol That and these general principals of the game are a bit too hard to just explain with text alone. When its drawn out it becomes much easier to understand.

Yeah Im pretty sure knowing all of this stuff in advance will make a huge diff for those who plan on picking up this game. As can see folks getting turned off before hand otherwise. As the game really does kick your ass by using literally all the gameplay mechanics against you from the get go.

The tutorial gives you some very basic things then tosses you to the lions with a stick and pot lid.

Just won some insane battle against a ton of goblins, part of it was being a dick too doing some major cheese to even things up. But the game would do the exact same thing if it could Im sure lol. I mean it already was at least over 15+ vs 4. Which means lower those numbers any way possible. I kinda want to reload the save and go in there just to count how many there were. Thank god enemies dont seem to open doors themselves. If they could player would be proper fucked.

Really wished I had recorded that fight since it was insane. You guys would have gone NOPE if you saw the numbers of goblins in there. I was assuming death pretty quick once I saw how the map looked so didnt bother to hit the record button. D:



Truthfully you will have to play defensively on occasion to allow the enemies to move around a bit or watch what they will do, but at the same time will have to go on the offensive when opportunity presents itself. Such as taking out the next in line enemy on the turn meter. So there is a bit of both going on. Trying to rush into things all the time really will get you killed. Also this game by constantly chaining into attacks will put those characters on standby leaving you with no other ones to execute a new set of action chains for the characters who went in first attacking. Basically the characters who can defend will be your most important pieces of your overall strategy. Healing an ally at a distance can also count as creating an attack chain. So keep that in mind too.

Does create some intense stuff though.

I knew I said I wouldnt upload this yet, but it gives you a pretty good example of how to use the chain action system in the game vs. overwhelming odds.

*dont watch if you want to keep how one way of clearing the first part of the Rank A dungeon fresh.


Also whenever your characters level up remember to put in the skill points, as they are seriously crucial to your survival in the game. It really is cool how you can respec at any time in the world map. Currently have not had the need to, but you know it will be necessary eventually considering they are letting you do it. First thing I did was add some HP to the characters who are usually out in the front. Also upped damage to allow for faster kills from less hits. Which means more potential chance to kill all enemies in an area with the allotted number of attacks.

Exactly, it's very open from what you described

Kind of off topic but I disagree with both of those. Playing aggressively with links/chain bonuses is very effective in FM4, and there are more effective strats in Gungnir than chaining attacks esp. on Nightmare difficulty.

Natural Doctrine is shaping up to be pretty unique and interesting, with a good focus on strategy. Is it one campaign or are there free battles/grinding?

I had found the AP cost to that outside of melee assists to save on ammo rather weak (better to heal the damage off otherwise) even avoiding VR missions like the plague ala FM3, and I'd figure so, but countering the high-block/HP zerg in those games with a Beats globaling was so damn effective (especially with the borderline glass cannon team I fielded).

 

[Parakeetman]

Kind of off topic but I disagree with both of those. Playing aggressively with links/chain bonuses is very effective in FM4, and there are more effective strats in Gungnir than chaining attacks esp. on Nightmare difficulty.

Natural Doctrine is shaping up to be pretty unique and interesting, with a good focus on strategy. Is it one campaign or are there free battles/grinding?

There are free battles, but they seem to be limited, as in it loses its highlight for a period of time. Although they do refresh themselves but am not sure at what the conditions are for the free dungeons to refresh.

You can tell when one is available on the map by the white outline around it, basically any map including the story ones which have an available battle are outlined in white. The free dungeons will have a letter grade difficulty ranking. Story stuff will be a bunch of scenario description written out instead.

Monster and item placement are the exact same each time. Though some chests will not refresh it seems. As Ive been to a dungeon that only 1 of the 2 chests in the first room spawned locked again.

Exactly, it's very open from what you described

Did watching the video help you see what I meant with that highlighted part of my comment you picked out?

---

Another mechanic that I am a bit unsure of is exactly how EXP is rewarded. Cant tell if any kill by anyone gives EXP to everyone or if its you have to be at least part of an attack chain to gain some EXP from the kill. Then theres the mess of does it work with whoever does the killing blow get the most EXP? etc... D:

One other useful to know thing is you can only have 4 friendly units per zone section. Same goes for enemies.

 

[Parakeetman]

Shit double posted. Moved this to the post above. D:

 

[Shengar]

Damn, in Action and Repercussion video, you pretty one shotted by something which I presume a troll/ogre D:
How do you supposed to beat something that can one shot Jeff?

 

[fedexpeon]

Cardboard tactical map?
Well shit, can't wait for the game then if you need to plan that much in advance for your movement and action.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

There are free battles, but they seem to be limited, as in it loses its highlight for a period of time. Although they do refresh themselves but am not sure at what the conditions are for the free dungeons to refresh.

You can tell when one is available on the map by the white outline around it, basically any map including the story ones which have an available battle are outlined in white. The free dungeons will have a letter grade difficulty ranking. Story stuff will be a bunch of scenario description written out instead.

Monster and item placement are the exact same each time. Though some chests will not refresh it seems. As Ive been to a dungeon that only 1 of the 2 chests in the first room spawned locked again.



Did watching the video help you see what I meant with that highlighted part of my comment you picked out?

---

Another mechanic that I am a bit unsure of is exactly how EXP is rewarded. Cant tell if any kill by anyone gives EXP to everyone or if its you have to be at least part of an attack chain to gain some EXP from the kill. Then theres the mess of does it work with whoever does the killing blow get the most EXP? etc... D:

One other useful to know thing is you can only have 4 friendly units per zone section. Same goes for enemies.

A little, but the video was very nice. I am at ease again.

 

[Zetta]

When it comes to games like these graphic are the least of my concern. Thank you OP for taking the time to explain the battle system since it did look a bit confusing. I can't wait to get this and spent some time getting my ass handed to me lol.

 

[Parakeetman]

Cardboard tactical map?
Well shit, can't wait for the game then if you need to plan that much in advance for your movement and action.

Its just one of the basic principals that you will need to know to really survive in the game. Without understanding this concept, it will seem like the enemy has endless turns. Which therefore would make people literally quit the game.

As later on with what Im seeing the enemy number count can get pretty insane with some of the dungeons and if you do not make use of and understand this game mechanic there is no way you would be able to clear out the dungeon let alone survive with the normal turn to turn method that most games use.

Also if you dont want to spend a lot of time retrying maps, then yeah its a good idea to try and plan ahead and pay close attention to the turn bar at the top. Since seriously there will be occasions that once the enemy gets their turn started they will do their damnedest to make sure that you get a one way ticket to the game over screen.

A little, but the video was very nice. I am at ease again.

The dungeon is currently greyed out for me as having cleared it multiple times, but once it opens up again, will do a more straight forward short video that should display the concept clearly.

---

Game really ramps up the difficulty yet again... oh man where Im at now, this is going to take a while to figure out. Do agree with what a lot of the JP players are saying about not being able to skip dialog scenes faster is irritating when its やり直す祭り.
Currently its almost gone from マゾゲー to 無理ゲー lol. Im sure Ill get it eventually, but before that I might load up an older save and level up more, just so I can soak up more damage. D:

Damn, in Action and Repercussion video, you pretty one shotted by something which I presume a troll/ogre D:
How do you supposed to beat something that can one shot Jeff?

You dont actually, thats kinda the point when you start the game. But you can come back to the dungeon later on and try to take it on. The thing is too you need to have someone who can either dodge the attacks or actually absorb that much damage, as the Troll gets a skill called "quick turn" which basically means it gets to have an action instantly once the gate is open, so whoever is there infront of the cell is going to be attacked 100%. Im pretty sure whats locked away in the chest is either some sort of weapon or a shield. Since those type of pickups are already decided in set initial locations. The randomized stuff is accessories + pluton amounts.

Its similar to the doors in the optional dungeons, you can try to press on further or exit the dungeon once you complete the main objective which usually is to clear out all enemies in the zone. That does not include ones locked up behind doors / hidden rooms.

Usually greed will get you killed and early on its not exactly suggested to open the doors unless you really want to see whats inside lol

Also yep still take about 190 DMG even at my current lv for the main character + the dodge up skill got me hit. If I can dodge the attack(s)? am pretty sure I might be able to kill it by trying to cheese my way into multiple attacks. Have the caster now too who can deal out pretty big damage to enemies that are physical resistant. Though it uses that pluton ore stuff to cast spells and 0.5 for a offensive spell is a lot considering if you are lucky you might find that much from a run on a dungeon with a chest.

---

had to stop playing as need to cook now before the ingredients go bad as already put it off yesterday thanks to this game. D: Im pretty hell bent on beating the title and maybe will be able to do it in a few days.

---

Will warn everyone once again, this game will most def piss you off on occasion and feel unfair at times. So just keep that in mind before picking it up. Not trying to scare folks off, but want people to understand that this game kinda goes beyond the normal reasoning with a "difficult game". And expect to take a lot of time dying and retrying. Since still so far in the game Im stuck with characters that if they die its game over regardless if I just took 30 minutes in a map.

Some of the story ones have a checkpoint, but if you have your unit placement wrong from where it starts off you might as well start over and try again. Other times the game will forcefully take players from the party so you will not be able to use them or put them in a pre-determined location after cutscene is over. So also keep that in mind. Various small issues too as the game is not really a polished, but a diamond in the rough.

Im seriously enjoying it regardless and that should say something as all of you here are pretty familiar with how harsh I am with games that I consider to be bad / not worth spending money on.

Im curious as how the others here who have picked up the title, are progressing in the game? As seems to be a lot of radio silence from them lol
Do hope this didnt happen.

 

[Shengar]

Game really ramps up the difficulty yet again... oh man where Im at now, this is going to take a while to figure out. Do agree with what a lot of the JP players are saying about not being able to skip dialog scenes faster is irritating when its やり直す祭り.
Currently its almost gone from マゾゲー to 無理ゲー lol. Im sure Ill get it eventually, but before that I might load up an older save and level up more, just so I can soak up more damage. D:

I can read the first bolded word, but can't on the next lol
What's that supposed to mean?
Also, how far are you into the story?

 

[Parakeetman]

I can read the first bolded word, but can't on the next lol
What's that supposed to mean?
Also, how far are you into the story?

Masochist Game マゾゲー (mazoge-)

Impossible Game 無理ゲー (murige-)

Not sure how many chapters there are but am on the 6th story level. That particular level is the 無理ゲー one at the moment. So have gone back a save and am leveling up a bit more to gain more skills. Then might respec my character to match the idiotic situation Ill be put in. I could do it at my current state but its going to take a lot of trial and error.

 

[RyougaSaotome]

Oh god, my name popped up in this thread?!

Just to set the record straight so people don't think I'm speaking out of my ass, I was simply relaying how 2ch had been reacting to it/my own observations after watching Hasemo stream for a while. I have no intention of buying the game at this point, so there's not much more for me to say on that end.

I will say that the production quality across the board looks ultra low, and the scrolling text is a really unfortunate design choice.

Still, I'm honored (??) that I got brought up in here. XD

 

[Parakeetman]

Oh god, my name popped up in this thread?!

Just to set the record straight so people don't think I'm speaking out of my ass, I was simply relaying how 2ch had been reacting to it/my own observations after watching Hasemo stream for a while. I have no intention of buying the game at this point, so there's not much more for me to say on that end.

I will say that the production quality across the board looks ultra low, and the scrolling text is a really unfortunate design choice.

Still, I'm honored (??) that I got brought up in here. XD

You know I always bring you up in a convo considering when people are looking for a more balanced opinion on things. Which is why I was surprised to hear the situation of what happened with the Hasemo stream.

Glad to see you stopped by to comment and give your side of the story, thanks for that its appreciated. I never though Id see the day when I hear you talking about production quality lol.

Game is low budget there is no doubt about that. Lots of other smaller problems too. Dont think it will sell enough to even see a "gold" version where they re-release it again with updated models, mechanics and content. As this game really does need that as Id say its still way too rough around the edges and they should not have released this on the PS4 personally. Even though its the version that I have. As its really being a huge disadvantage towards the games marketing when people see the platform (PS4) then look at the less than stellar graphics.

This game should have been kept in development a good while longer to make a more well rounded title as the game mechanics are pretty sound, but it needed to be looked over by people who understand game design and balance a little better. As its almost as if this game was done only by "elitists" who think impossible things would be fun for the average consumer. The project must not have had good supervision and obviously this is a title thats been sent out to die.

Btw what scrolling text? The combat log on the left side you mean?

Anyways with all of that aside this by far is not a くそゲー though. マゾゲー, 無理ゲー yes. Sides I doubt Hasemo even knew what he was doing in the game to actually give it any real thought besides looking at the outside surface. If he apparently only spent that little time with it. This game cant be played the normal way strategy games can thats why. If one does they are going to get a game over screen 100%.

The things that are being said on 2ch dont disagree with a lot of it as those are comments by folks who have obviously played the game and also they are right coming from the standpoint as what appears to be normal consumers. Only those who are really hardcore gamers and used to doing the impossible in titles and enjoying it would find this game amusing. Since its not like the title is balanced so well with the stage design and mechanics that just because you figure out the mechanics you will be able to win every time. As stated some of the stages and things that can happen are pretty much unfair. Not to mention that the AI will ALWAYS be sure to take full advantage of the link turn system which will allow them to totally bumrush your position when you screw up with your turn. Very unforgiving game. So those complaining about the stress caused by losing 30-40 minutes of work from a single death then having to start over and wait through slow enemy turns yeah thats a design problem right there.

I really could go on more in depth about the issues with the game, hell could even do up a design doc on how they could make a re-released version fixing a lot of the issues. But as we all know that really wont solve anything, so will just stick to explaining how the game is and let people know what they need to expect and watch out for with the title itself.

If this game really was shit, I obviously would not be spending this much time with all the information in here.

Will say this though. I did think the game looked like shit and had 0 interest in it for the most part, till I saw initial gameplay videos when they were finally released. That helped cement the desire to grab it and then pick the design aspects apart. Its generally what I do with games these days, which is why a lot of them are never finished once I figure out most of the design aspects of said title. This one though its along the same line as old school from software games where I want to beat the damned thing just because. Am sure its more than possible, its just a matter of sticking with it and doing every single cheat and underhanded thing you can to possibly win. Only way to win when the AI does the exact same thing. For the most part both the player and AI are bound by the same rules and bugs, just that some situations is what makes it seem to be tipped way more in favor for the AI.

----

Uploaded a 30 minute video. Part of the reason why its so long is due to how many enemies are taking their turn even if they are just shifting around back and forth in the lower hall. This is the level that had talked about with 20 enemies in the same initial room. While the lower part of the map is sealed off by a door its still considered the same section of the map therefore all enemies in there must also be defeated before you can exit the zone if you choose not to press on to the lower depths from the door down there.

 

[fatgamecat]

They might make balance changes for the English version, like making it a lot easier.

 

[Parakeetman]

They might make balance changes for the English version, like making it a lot easier.

Doubt it considering it would take a lot of work and if the game had this small of a budget for Japan they aint going to push it over the limit past localization and standard QA testing by adding more work with messing with the code further.

They would need to rework literally everything if they wanted to make the title easier. Not going to happen. This would sell potentially even worse in the West where folks care even more so about graphics. Cant wait to see all the reviewers bitch and moan about this title.

Sides there already is a difficulty level selection that can be accessed & changed at anytime between stages. Granted not sure if that will really help all that much considering its the game mechanics and how the levels are designed / enemy layout that makes things difficult.

---

Updated the OP with a new 30 minute video. The last part though once everything is dead feel free to skip it since its just me making my way to the exit. Same video is on this page also in my previous post.

 

[RyougaSaotome]

I never though Id see the day when I hear you talking about production quality lol.

Considering I've done it on pretty much every game I've purchased and talked at length about, I'm not sure why you're so surprised.

 

[Parakeetman]

Considering I've done it on pretty much every game I've purchased and talked at length about, I'm not sure why you're so surprised.

Perhaps here lies the problem if you are wondering why folks are surprised with your actions towards this game vs. your general history with talking about titles?

 

[RyougaSaotome]

Perhaps here lies the problem if you are wondering why folks are surprised with your actions towards this game vs. your general history with talking about titles?

Nobody seems particularly surprised by my reaction to the game so again, not really sure what you're talking about.

I'm not wondering anything. I'm just amused that my name keeps popping up in threads for these kinds of games. In any case, I have nothing to add to the thread seeing as I don't plan on playing, so my apologies for derailing the discussion.

 

[Parakeetman]

Nobody seems particularly surprised by my reaction to the game so again, not really sure what you're talking about.

I'm not wondering anything. I'm just amused that my name keeps popping up in threads for these kinds of games. In any case, I have nothing to add to the thread seeing as I don't plan on playing, so my apologies for derailing the discussion.

Its all good man. Anyways though thanks for stopping by! Am sure why your name keeps popping up is due to folks know that you pick up obscure titles too and write about it when you have time. That and you basically became legendary with that TokiTowa OT you made haha. Plus you always give good writeups on whatever you do.

 

[ranmafan]

Im curious as how the others here who have picked up the title, are progressing in the game? As seems to be a lot of radio silence from them lol
Do hope this didnt happen.

Its been a slow climb for me but I've started to get how the game works and all now. I've gotten through a few of the first dungeons but Im still pretty early on in the game. Deaths come quite often, and yet while it can be frustrating to lose all that progress in one level due to one death, its also been strangely exciting for me. Just like how Demon's Souls was for me when I first played that.

Getting the placement of the characters right throughout the levels has been a challenge for me. Too many times I've died because I placed a character went too far onto a map early on leaving them open for the enemies to get me later on. But I'm adjusting my gameplay style now due to these situations coming up and so far, its working out well.

But I've been playing it all weekend so far and loving every minute of it! The extreme difficultly is making it even more exciting for me. I'm glad I picked up the omochidashi pack for it as well.

 

[Parakeetman]

Its been a slow climb for me but I've started to get how the game works and all now. I've gotten through a few of the first dungeons but Im still pretty early on in the game. Deaths come quite often, and yet while it can be frustrating to lose all that progress in one level due to one death, its also been strangely exciting for me. Just like how Demon's Souls was for me when I first played that.

Getting the placement of the characters right throughout the levels has been a challenge for me. Too many times I've died because I placed a character went too far onto a map early on leaving them open for the enemies to get me later on. But I'm adjusting my gameplay style now due to these situations coming up and so far, its working out well.

But I've been playing it all weekend so far and loving every minute of it! The extreme difficultly is making it even more exciting for me. I'm glad I picked up the omochidashi pack for it as well.

Ah we have a survivor here!

Fantastic and very glad to hear that you are making headway in the title. Heres a hint.

Spoiler

level up as much as you can with the 5 characters and dont progress the story till you feel that you are at a satisfactory level.

Thanks for stopping by again and writing your impressions of the experience so far. Know all the exact things you are talking about with your experience lol. As in the videos had posted you can see me doing some of the very same things. D:

 

[Shengar]

There's a free battle? So that mean you can grind indefinitely right? But if each fights last for about 15 minutes, and levels don't mean much in fight, then I guess grinding wouldn't be an option.

 

[ranmafan]

Ah we have a survivor here!

Fantastic and very glad to hear that you are making headway in the title. Heres a hint.

Spoiler

level up as much as you can with the 5 characters and dont progress the story till you feel that you are at a satisfactory level.

Thanks for stopping by again and writing your impressions of the experience so far. Know all the exact things you are talking about with your experience lol. As in the videos had posted you can see me doing some of the very same things. D:

Thanks for the help! Yeah I've learned already not to go to far yet. I was feeling a bit too confident this morning and tried to challenge myself through the story only to have the game just knock me down.

But yeah I gotta agree with what others have said. This game is unique, and its one of those games thats just fits me it seems. Its not perfect with its presentation, but the gameplay is just fun. Looking forward to playing a lot more and I do hope others give this game a chance as well.

 

[michaelius]

Its just one of the basic principals that you will need to know to really survive in the game. Without understanding this concept, it will seem like the enemy has endless turns. Which therefore would make people literally quit the game.

Reviews by western press are going to be fun to read

 

[Parakeetman]

There's a free battle? So that mean you can grind indefinitely right? But if each fights last for about 15 minutes, and levels don't mean much in fight, then I guess grinding wouldn't be an option.

The free battles go blank sometimes but will come back. Am not sure what causes this. Have mentioned this twice now I think. One thing is for sure, you are not really meant to explore deeper in the dungeons without more party members. For those who dont believe me go open the door after the initial room in the newer ones and see for yourself lol.

Levels are more for gaining more skill points which helps your character greatly asides from being essential for survival. Also further in the game you go enemies have skills too, which means you will have to level up, but Id think not grind unless you really want to. That and thankfully when you level up in a battle you get HP back.

Even then all it takes is one mistake and the death of a character to game over so its not like you suddenly become all powerful unstoppable.

The other purpose of constant dungeon runs is to see if you can get more useful accessories for your characters to help boost up the stats even in the smallest way. Though you only have 2 accessory slots so got to make whats equipped count.

Reviews by western press are going to be fun to read

Seeing how some cant even figure out mechanics from more simple games yeah its going to be amusing to see...

 

[Yuterald]

Aw man, I want this SO badly right now. These impressions sound hot. We're definitely getting this, I've read? Sometime in the Fall of 2014 from NISA, if I'm correct? Man, PS4's Japanese library is already like 100x more interesting to me right now. Sony/3rd party publishers need to get their shit together and get this stuff over here ASAP! Between this game and Yakuza Ishin, I'd be mad deep in gaming bliss right about now. Ugh.

 

[Parakeetman]

Aw man, I want this SO badly right now. These impressions sound hot. We're definitely getting this, I've read? Sometime in the Fall of 2014 from NISA, if I'm correct? Man, PS4's Japanese library is already like 100x more interesting to me right now. Sony/3rd party publishers need to get their shit together and get this stuff over here ASAP! Between this game and Yakuza Ishin, I'd be mad deep in gaming bliss right about now. Ugh.

Yeah something like that by NIS.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/04/01/strategy-rpg-natural-doctrine-coming-west-for-ps3-ps4-vita

They seriously better translate those 2 official guide videos and throw them up a good period ahead of time so we dont have people freaking out over how to play.

Good lord at IGN writing all that incorrect shit.

"In some ways, Natural Doctrine seems to be most akin to games like Final Fantasy Tactics, Advance Wars, and even Valkyria Chronicles."

Never change IGN, never change...

 

[Guymelef]

Waiting for western release.
Parakeetman, excellent job in this thread.

 

[Parakeetman]

Waiting for western release.
Parakeetman, excellent job in this thread.

Just glad to see that there are others interested in the title and hope the info helps when you folks pick up the localized version.

Time to see how far I can advance the story now.

Thanks for the help! Yeah I've learned already not to go to far yet. I was feeling a bit too confident this morning and tried to challenge myself through the story only to have the game just knock me down.

But yeah I gotta agree with what others have said. This game is unique, and its one of those games thats just fits me it seems. Its not perfect with its presentation, but the gameplay is just fun. Looking forward to playing a lot more and I do hope others give this game a chance as well.

Oh yeah also for the previous comment

Spoiler

once you get your 5th character the caster highly suggest leveling him up and getting the defense up spell which is in the third row in his skill tree. That ability cuts damage in half. HUGE help seriously, esp when you need to leave a single character out in the open in the guard stance + that ability makes a really really big difference allowing for the enemies to waste actions. Which after that you can set up a pretty big counter-attack chain. Just cleared the 2nd half of one of the free dungeons that way, something which would not have been possible at all without that spell.

Not exactly spoilers, but heres what my characters skill trees currently look like.

Jeff - Lv 9

Vasilisa - Lv 9

Zekelinde - Lv 10

Inca - Lv 10

Nebula - Lv 7

 

[Videoneon]

Damn this is going to take me a long time to beat.

I guess I'll get it.

 

[Coxy]

Reviews by western press are going to be fun to read

oh yeah, "fun"

I've seen reviews of EASY RPGs after 30 mins. I expect lots of reviews after one battle

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

Reviews by western press are going to be fun to read

"...it's the Dark Souls of SRPGS!!!!!2222"

Just glad to see that there are others interested in the title and hope the info helps when you folks pick up the localized version.

And again, thanks. This thread is like the old days of J-GAF test-driving games first that often made it over here later. Hype, confirmation, warnings, etc.

 

[Parakeetman]

Made a lot of headway in the story after getting up to lv 9-10 for the characters. Im maybe now about 1/3rd of the way through the game if this Japanese wiki is correct with all the story related stages present.

Shit will start to get real hard real fast lol.

One thing Ill warn everyone in advance about is grab all the treasure chests if possible on story stages. Since there does not seem to be any way to revist them in case you were not able to grab the treasure the first time around. D:

Also make multiple save files. But why the hell are PS4 save files 11MB a piece?!

"...it's the Dark Souls of SRPGS!!!!!2222"

And again, thanks. This thread is like the old days of J-GAF test-driving games first that often made it over here later. Hype, confirmation, warnings, etc.

Man you so know that reviews that dont want to try writing anything meaningful are going to go with that sort of catch phrase...

Yep no problem.

 

[Parakeetman]

DP D:

 

[Coxy]

what do the lines in the skill tree mean? Do you basically have to waste a skill point to get to the next skill?

looks like you get 2 skill points per level?

 

[Parakeetman]

what do the line in the skill tree mean? Do you basically have to waste a skill point to get to the next skill?

looks like you get 2 skill points per level?

Some characters start off already with skills in place.

I think just Jeff the main charcter gets 2 per level. Everyone else seem to only get 1 when leveling up.

Yeah the lines mean you need to go in order. From Left to Right. Thankfully all skills only cost 1 point. And you can respec at anytime on the world map screen with no penalties.

Hmm I see what you are talking about. You know thats a good question. Ill have to check on that. The boxes that have no skill in it but just a line. Hang on will need to turn the PS4 on again. Ok yeah dont worry about the lines. Its just showing connectivity to the next skill. Only if its an actual Skill Icon will it cost you 1 point.

Man after how easily I managed to beat the 6th stage after having been stuck on it a while, where Im currently now makes that one seem like an easy win tutorial lol

Damn this is going to take me a long time to beat.

I guess I'll get it.

For whatever reason my save file says Ive played the game for 150 hours that sure cant be right... I know I left it on at the same time while posting on GAF and have been doing a marathon with it over the weekend, but there is no way in hell it would add up to 150 hrs wtf?! But yeah this for sure is not a game that you will be able to rush through.

"...it's the Dark Souls of SRPGS!!!!!2222"
And again, thanks. This thread is like the old days of J-GAF test-driving games first that often made it over here later. Hype, confirmation, warnings, etc.

I also noticed you used the "GAME OVER MAN" type of quote too in your thread bout Darkest Dungeon? lol Figured it was appropriate for this game, since seriously thats one screen you will see a lot.

Its been a slow climb for me but I've started to get how the game works and all now. I've gotten through a few of the first dungeons but Im still pretty early on in the game. Deaths come quite often, and yet while it can be frustrating to lose all that progress in one level due to one death, its also been strangely exciting for me. Just like how Demon's Souls was for me when I first played that.

Getting the placement of the characters right throughout the levels has been a challenge for me. Too many times I've died because I placed a character went too far onto a map early on leaving them open for the enemies to get me later on. But I'm adjusting my gameplay style now due to these situations coming up and so far, its working out well.

But I've been playing it all weekend so far and loving every minute of it! The extreme difficultly is making it even more exciting for me. I'm glad I picked up the omochidashi pack for it as well.

One thing thats a bit maddening is how when you take an area and the AI auto advances sometimes it puts them in a position where they can get shot at which is highly annoying. As it will space them out in 4 corners of the square. D: Also the occasions where the AI moves the player characters automatically for melee combat, which messes up support fire at times as it blocks the LOS since they bunch up in the middle.

---

Going to be taking the day off from gaming today as am having one of my rare cases of massive migraines. Even reading gaf / looking at the PC monitor is fail, so will be going to sleep for the rest of the evening. Anyways though if I do wake up again or anyone has any questions leave them here and will get to answering them when am back up and about.

---

Woke up again and switched over to the vita to play while resting. Still not the best of ideas as my head is killing me, but whatever be it I managed to beat the level was stuck on for a little while. This isnt exactly a spoiler so wont tag it but wanted to tell all those who are going to be playing the game once you get the caster to join LEVEL HIM UP till you are able to get the defense buff. Do not advance the story after getting him without that ability. Seriously save yourself a lot of unnecessary headache that way as it will be one of the more used spells in your arsenal, besides the sleep spell. This game as you advance likes to throw enemies at you who can potentially 1 shot your weaker characters (ranged / mage) which is why that defense buff is so crucial as all it takes is just one mistake and back to start you go lol.

Want you people to enjoy the game as much as possible rather than get totally pissed off with it and that spell helps that greatly. Truthfully I dont see how you can do some things without it really, since it literally cuts damage taken in half. So things that would have 1 shotted you, wont anymore with it active. The only odd thing that you need to be careful is am unsure how many turns it lasts as there does not seem to be any indicator of that asides from the blue glow it puts on your character.

Another thing is to while leveling always raid the chests in order to gather pluton. As the magic in the game uses that as the source of "MP". There is no other way to gain it asides from story related events or raiding chests. Enemies do not drop items like other SRPGs. So whenever you do dungeon grinds for as long as they are active, always open all chests possible. The amount you will receive is random too. Thankfully the chests are always in the same location so that makes things a bit easier.

Oh yeah also for those who want the vita version go ahead and pick it up since it looks and runs great on the vita also. Same with the controls. If they have an omochidashi pack (Console + digital Vita copy) in the US too most def jump at that as its worth it.

 

[Shengar]

Wow, caster sounds pretty OP. But again, the MP as resources looks scarce so that might balanced things out and further push you to allocate your spell as strategic movement rather than usual move since they rather limited.

 

[Parakeetman]

Wow, caster sounds pretty OP. But again, the MP as resources looks scarce so that might balanced things out and further push you to allocate your spell as strategic movement rather than usual move since they rather limited.

Hardly considering he can get 1 shotted and its powered by pluton which is something that isnt all that plentiful. Not to mention enemies will usually target him first if they get the chance. You really dont want to be wasting the pluton all over the place either as have mentioned the free battles are limited, which means the amount you can harvest is also limited. Going further into the dungeons to get more from treasure chests usually will wind up with you having to spend some also considering the type of monsters you will face leaving you with either a negative total of pluton gained or such a slight amount that having left that side of the dungeon alone and exiting earlier would have been a far better choice. Though the extra EXP is seriously appreciated and needed considering runs through the free areas do have a limit. (Still no idea how the game gauges that though.)

Enemies will also start to have more and more of the same skills the player has increasing the various risks and thought that has to be put into your actions. So nothing in the game is really OP at this point in time.

*Edit from DP below. OTL

Also with how you spec out the caster it will either be for damage or support. Since its such a slow class to level up its hard to make it any sort of overpowered unit. Im pretty sure it has the least amount of life compared to all the others also. Which is why where Im at with certain ranged enemies if Im unlucky he can die in 1 shot. Same goes for my own ranged characters.

Both the defensive buff and the starting damage spell cost 0.5 pluton to cast which is a hell of a lot considering the low amounts you can gain from chests. Some story stages dont even have chests to loot which means no pluton gain.

Im currently staying around 14 at the moment. The most Ive used in a stage was bout 3 which is quite a lot. Caster is also pretty low on the totem when it comes to when he gets to take his turn. Which is why to make more use of him the whole chain initiative system is important.

 

[Parakeetman]

fuck double posted again D:

---

Might as well type something new in here.

Just completed the Rank A dungeon fully. Pretty crazy fight. Near the end it was a slaughter thanks to the type of geographical setup the 2nd part of the dungeon has, combined with proper tactics & skill use. Getting your party set up ahead of time with the proper buffs is essential also. Esp if you plan on using someone as the front guard to prevent enemies from advance any further allowing you to turn it into a shooting gallery. Though cant become overzealous and start to have said unit guarding constantly join in on the attacks too even if it takes longer that way. Very important also to keep the mage out of the chains, so he can be used to initiate another one. Keep targeting enemies who are next in line for a turn to ensure that you can keep the onslaught going. Without doing that you are really putting yourself at a huge disadvantage. As enemies can initiate chains with others from attacks also and not just defending. So even if you kill all the types who can defend, an attacking enemy unit can initiate a chain combo with other valid friendly units who would be able to attack said target.

With those also interested in the VITA version the loading times for the stages is a little long, but not too bad. And when you have to retry the stage there hardly is any loading at all. Which is good showing that they optimized the game for that and the fact that you will die a lot its appreciated. This game also works with the VITA Tv so maybe tonight or tomorrow Ill record just some general footage for you folks so you can see what it actually looks like. The VITA version that is.

Really am hoping the next patch, one that doesnt bork our game will allow for speeding up the enemy turns on top of allowing for skipping of the talking with scenes that take place before a level starts. As currently it doesnt work too well with what they have implemented at the moment.

 

[Shengar]

Glass cannon with limited magic, damn this game sound even more hardcore each passing days! It's quite insane, but I actually rather appreciated the limited magic aspect.

 

[Parakeetman]

Glass cannon with limited magic, damn this game sound even more hardcore each passing days! It's quite insane, but I actually rather appreciated the limited magic aspect.

Yeah you can turn him into a glass cannon if you want, but personally I find him to be a lot more useful as a support role. Since if you have everyone work on constantly chaining attacks on a single target it should be more than enough damage to take down a lot of things with his standard damage output. You really will be keeping him away from most combat as the last thing you want to happen is some enemy manages to actually be able to target him with something which would usually kill him then game over. So I only move him up forward if I know there is no danger or we are going to 100% kill the target, which would allow my melee guys to overtake the next square putting an even larger gap between myself and the enemies. As there are no special attacks at this time which can reach 3 squares in between. 2 is the current longest for some spells and the ranged sniping skill.

What spells he will get all depends on where you go in his limited skill tree. There isnt that many spells actually.

He starts off with an offensive magic spell 0.5p, sleep 0.3p and heal 0.1p.

Top row leads to his final offensive magic spell ??p

middle section is the defensive buff 0.5p and later is an offensive buff (am pretty sure this is 0.5p also).

last row has a bad status recovery spell ??p and upgrades to healing abilities of the magic and potions. Since he starts with the ability to use a single healing potion also.

You can actually make do without the offensive ability buff as Inca has an all party attack up aura buff. Though aura buffs only one can be activated at a time and the one the main character Jeff has is slightly better since its a bit more balanced and effects all stats having to do with combat, which is useful for when you are using characters to hold a position and will be taking damage / counter attacking.

Right now I need to cut back on my magic usage since am going backwards in gain from dungeon runs. Though the EXP is great from kills, I seriously need to conserve the pluton usage as am getting near to the 10s range.

I seriously am not looking forward to running into any humanoid type of casters. The goblin ones are irritating enough as is with their fire spell that can hit for around 40 damage, then multiply that by them performing constant chain combos and you have yourself a dead character pretty quick. They do sleep now too apparently. Though thankfully just like your character they are seriously lacking in HP and can usually be dispatched by your ranged character easily.

I might do one more vid of the S rank free dungeon later on in the evening. As have not tried a run on it yet.

Really do want this to come out in the West soon as would like to watch whoever makes the OT for it and see all the type of comments folks will write about their experience with the game.

 

[Shengar]

Really do want this to come out in the West soon as would like to watch whoever makes the OT for it and see all the type of comments folks will write about their experience with the game.

The reviews and the complaint in the OT (and probably subquent LTTP if there is any) will be hilarious.
By the way, how many characters you've got so far? How many unit you can deploy in one battle?

 

[Alastor3]

damn I can't wait to play that game now :3 so much hype

 

[fatgamecat]

damn I can't wait to play that game now :3 so much hype

If you're looking for difficult tactics games I can make some suggestions while you wait.