No. Just... no. That simply isn't true. In terms of what the list was -- PC RPGs -- it was incredibly diverse, covering a massive swath of subgenres and, most importantly, a huge range of years. It wasn't basically a list of, "well, here's what I happen to have played in the last 24 months", which a large chunk of the GAF list reads like.
I love games like Fire Emblem: Awakening for what they are. But they don't deserve even an honorable mention on the list of best RPGs of all time; Fire Emblem fans will tell you themselves that it is far from the best game in its own franchise. It's clear that this is a list by people who haven't played very many RPGs. Which is OK! It's interesting to see. But again, in no way can you make any kind of equivalence between the two lists. One is by people who play a metric fuckload of RPGs; the other is essentially a poll to see what a group of moderate general gaming enthusiasts thinks about the genre.
Most of those people though have, as we all do, pretty huge biases. You can see it it any of the larger CRPG discussion threads. At the end of the day "I've played a lot of X" isn't a particularly sound endorsement of how well one understands X just how much they like it
I'm not really sure where to post this, but I thought it was interesting.
Brent Knowles Interview: An Insider's Look at BioWare, 2000-2009
Baldur's Gate 2 was an amazing game. Its puzzle-like encounter design, its rich assortment of magical items that were so much more than just plusses and minuses, and its epic mage duels are all unparalleled to this day. 14 years later, people still talk about character builds and party compositions, and share strategies on how to defeat iconic foes like the Twisted Rune, Firkraag, and Kangaxx. No other game has ever been as successful in delivering that essence of high level Dungeons & Dragons gameplay. What we'd like to know is - who was responsible? Who pushed for this stuff? And how did he (or they) manage to do such an incredible job?
James Ohlen and Kevin Martens… the lead and co-lead respectively, had a huge influence on this. They were very focused on the high-level details and spent a lot of time testing the content everybody was creating.
BG2, like HOTU, was also a fun project to work on. BG2 had a functional game engine (as opposed to an engine-in-development) and (many of) the designers were more experienced with it, so they knew what worked and what to avoid. Even brand new designers like myself were given areas to "flesh out". We were able to take characters from our old pen and paper campaigns and create little plots for them and it was very creative and organic. And certainly we made a mess of things at times, some of the plots, especially the Drow ones were horribly complicated and hard to troubleshoot!
But all of us were given semi-free reign to take things as far as we thought we could. I had a lot of fun working with the combat system, for example, and tried to pull in all the tricks I remember that had been used while playing pen and paper during high school. And all the team members were doing this, within their own areas of responsibilities.
As well, because the game content did not have to be locked down too early (for voice over and cinematics), we actually had more development time. With AAA titles nowadays, it becomes harder to tweak content in the late stages of development.
you can't be serious, everyone would just put a bunch of filler crap to prop up their actual choiceswould a "no limit" vote work next time? I'm thinking that would put more weight on RPG veterans vs those who just play a few
example:
Someone like Durante for example ranks 100 games and places Planescape Torment as his #1, his vote for PT would be worth 100 points, meanwhile, I've only played 10 rpgs and PT is also my #1, yet since I've played only a few my PT vote is worth 10 points only.
I'm not sure it would work but I think it's nice that those who are experienced in the genre will have more influence in deciding the rankings, while those of us who play less can still contribute. Just a thought.
Or maybe you can do the ranking by console gen?
So you have the best snes rpgs by rank, best rpgs on ps2 era by rank, etc
Sorry for the large delay in posting results. I have been extremely busy with work, and was unable to make time last weekend.
#31-40 are up now. I don't have summaries for Dragon's Dogma or Super Mario RPG. Anyone interested in providing a 80-125 word write up to either of those?
I have 10 more banners to make (#41-50). After that I will post the full results for the top 100+ games. I hope to be able to do that within the next week.
Thanks for being patient.
No need to apologize. You rock for doing this. These lists are a huge part of why I got a Vita.Sorry for the large delay in posting results. I have been extremely busy with work, and was unable to make time last weekend.
#31-40 are up now. I don't have summaries for Dragon's Dogma or Super Mario RPG. Anyone interested in providing a 80-125 word write up to either of those?
I have 10 more banners to make (#41-50). After that I will post the full results for the top 100+ games. I hope to be able to do that within the next week.
Thanks for being patient.
Take your time. It's a great list and I use it every year to pick a game for my personal 'Summer of rpg's'. It helps me prioritize my backlog and find new games to put on the backlog.Sorry for the large delay in posting results. I have been extremely busy with work, and was unable to make time last weekend.
#31-40 are up now. I don't have summaries for Dragon's Dogma or Super Mario RPG. Anyone interested in providing a 80-125 word write up to either of those?
I have 10 more banners to make (#41-50). After that I will post the full results for the top 100+ games. I hope to be able to do that within the next week.
Thanks for being patient.
Mother 3 deserves to be higher. Much higher.
I agree that playing X amount of games itself isn't enough to warrant one's understanding on particular genre. While playing a lot of games within a genre more likely to broaden your view on it, it isn't enough for curation. Critical approach (I think I got the wrong term but you got the idea, hopefully) is very important to dissect and built an argument why certain games must be played on top of others. Like you said Uthred, it's too much of an academic rigor. Even then, curator that went through of their list with such process will still have their own biases, which is for me ideally need to be addressed by them.
Is anyone planning to take over kswiston's position after this year, or will these yearly threads die off?
Dragon's Dogma released by Capcom as their answer to the popularit of Open-world RPG . Gransys, while not really as vast and as big as any other open-world game of its era, is compensated by more carefully and uniquely designed dungeon to explore. Exploration isn't the main attraction however, since Dragon's Dogma brightest gem is its (stylish) action gameplay. Climb a big monster and strike their weakness up close, or execute flashy skills to bring them down to their knees, Dragon's Dogma offered as many as possible with its gameplay that would keep players entertained for countless of hours. As for the role-playing aspect, Dragon's Dogma also triumph in that regard. For a console RPG, it have a simple yet effective and vast character customization which enable players to create avatar of their liking without difficulties but unique and distinct at the same time. Coupled with the Pawn System where the party consisted with player-created characters that obtainable via online or pre-created one by Capcom, Dragon's Dogma offered numerous role-playing experience. The story isn't Dragon's Dogma strong point, but it's serviceable and actually get better after the faux-ending in which the atmosphere is very heavy and tense. Dragon's Dogma latest and only expansion, the Dark Arisen adds one, vast dungeon to the game: The Bitterblack Isles, which is the home of many dangerous monsters and powerful equipments that doesn't even exist in Gransys. Less of an open-world, and more of a dungeon crawling so to speak, Dark Arisen addition of new monsters not only adding the challenge but also room for gameplay experimentation. With a story that is better by its content and how it's told, Dragon's Dogma: Dark Arisen isn't only a must-play expansion, but rather the definitive edition of the game.
I don't think it was yearly. Maybe a few years down the line when someone else wants to do the work.
I don't think it was yearly. Maybe a few years down the line when someone else wants to do the work.
And it is ALOT of work.
Sorry for the large delay in posting results. I have been extremely busy with work, and was unable to make time last weekend.
#31-40 are up now. I don't have summaries for Dragon's Dogma or Super Mario RPG. Anyone interested in providing a 80-125 word write up to either of those?
:O no vagrant story and tactics ogre on the list up to now? what have you done gaf?!
:O no vagrant story and tactics ogre on the list up to now? what have you done gaf?!
The TO drop surprises me given that the game just had a well-received remake. Vagrant Story is more of a cult favorite and depends on its partisans showing up in force. This year they didn't.
I wonder if Matsuno's functional retirement/exile from the traditional console RPG space has hurt his games in the rankings. Newer RPG players might be less likely to seek out TO and VS if they haven't already discovered Matsuno through a big new release.
My try on Dragon's Dogma summary. I apologize for any grammatical mistakes.
This work?
Mother 3 deserves to be higher. Much higher.
Thanks! I hope you don't mind that I made some substantial edits to keep the size of your summary in line with the other games posted so far.
NICE!!! Chrono Trigger is number one...woohoo!!!!
On a related side note -
It's probably just me but am I the only one that doesn't consider Mass Effect, Fallout, Deus Ex, etc. to be RPG's? I consider them either third or first person shooters with RPG elements. I see so many people list these games (and other similar type games) as RPG's and I remember back to the SNES/GEN/PS eras and im like, hell no. Not the same thing whatsoever.
Sorry if this derails this topic as that's not what im trying to do. Just thinking what's considered an RPG now compared to back then just drives me nuts. UGH.
Yeah Cuz this list needed to be more JRPG 90s console heavyNICE!!! Chrono Trigger is number one...woohoo!!!!
On a related side note -
It's probably just me but am I the only one that doesn't consider Mass Effect, Fallout, Deus Ex, etc. to be RPG's? I consider them either third or first person shooters with RPG elements. I see so many people list these games (and other similar type games) as RPG's and I remember back to the SNES/GEN/PS eras and im like, hell no. Not the same thing whatsoever.
Sorry if this derails this topic as that's not what im trying to do. Just thinking what's considered an RPG now compared to back then just drives me nuts. UGH.
Nocturne got robbed
It's probably just me but am I the only one that doesn't consider Mass Effect, Fallout, Deus Ex, etc. to be RPG's? I consider them either third or first person shooters with RPG elements. I see so many people list these games (and other similar type games) as RPG's and I remember back to the SNES/GEN/PS eras and im like, hell no. Not the same thing whatsoever.
Sorry if this derails this topic as that's not what im trying to do. Just thinking what's considered an RPG now compared to back then just drives me nuts. UGH.
On a related side note -
It's probably just me but am I the only one that doesn't consider Mass Effect, Fallout, Deus Ex, etc. to be RPG's? I consider them either third or first person shooters with RPG elements. I see so many people list these games (and other similar type games) as RPG's and I remember back to the SNES/GEN/PS eras and im like, hell no. Not the same thing whatsoever.
Sorry if this derails this topic as that's not what im trying to do. Just thinking what's considered an RPG now compared to back then just drives me nuts. UGH.
Sorry, but no. The first jRPGs borrowed heavily from the first cRPGs, which were basically emulations of Pen & Paper games, which academically speaking are RPGs in the truest sense. Due to technological restrictions it was and is rather difficult to really emulate a P&P experience. (Vampire the Masquerade Redemption did that actually, but you still needed someone playing the dungeon master.)
What the jRPG developers did back in the day was taking the stat systems, classes, settings, gave them their own touch and streamlined it. Since P&P games weren't really popular in Japan they simply didn't really know where cRPG developers were coming from and what they were trying to achieve. I guess this is why the whole choose and shape your own adventure system you see in current wRPGs never really got incorporated into jRPGs.
Now if you argue that games like Fallout, Elder Scrolls and Mass Effect are no "true" RPGs i would argue that jRPGs are actually no "true" RPGs.
Per definition a Role Playing Game is a game where "players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making or character development. Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines."
As you can see, decision making and character development are integral parts of the role playing experience, something that is often missing in jRPGs.
If you are arguing that jRPGs are RPGs because you "play a role" in those games, then every single videogame that lets you control an avatar is a role playing game.
But of course I consider both jRPGs and wRPGs as true RPGs. Some are just closer to their P&P heritage than others.
It's somewhat the reason why I think Dark Souls is closer to the ideal of what a RPG should be than Mass Effect is - or at least, Dark Souls is what the first devs who adapted tabletop RPGs to the videogame medium would have aimed for if they had the techno at that time.
JRPGs started in the 80s by borrowing ideas from western RPG and then quickly evolved along the lines of Japan's anime/manga culture. It's particularly evident in Dragon Quest's first episodes.
I still really need to play Nier. I keep seeing it for ten bucks in Best Buy, too...