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New Overtime rules

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ShadowRed

Banned
IE. tax cut for the rich and corporations part 2. Bush screws the middle class yet again.





Battle engaged over new OT rules
White House, labor groups argue whether regulations now in effect are boon or bane to workers.
August 23, 2004: 12:25 PM EDT

NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Controversial new rules regarding overtime pay went into effect Monday, with the Bush administration and labor advocates squabbling over how many U.S. workers are affected.

The changes mark the first major overhaul of the federal overtime law in more than 50 years.

The Labor Department says the new rules will strengthen overtime rights for 6.7 million American workers, including 1.3 million low-wage workers who were denied overtime under the old rules.


But groups, including the AFL-CIO, say the rules will bar 6 million workers from getting time and a half. There's a Capitol Hill protest of the rules scheduled Monday.

In Saturday's Democratic Party radio address, vice presidential candidate Sen. John Edwards blasted the rules.

"Why would anyone want to take overtime pay away from as many as 6 million Americans at a time when they need that money the most?," Edwards asked.

Under the law, there are three primary tests for determining who is eligible ("non-exempt") and who is not ("exempt") from overtime pay.

First up is the "salary-basis" test. To be exempt from overtime, workers must be paid a set salary, not an hourly wage. This has long been the rule under federal overtime law. The new rules don't change this requirement.

The second criteria, called the "salary-level" test, has been amended. In order to be exempt from overtime, the new rules require that employees earn a minimum salary of $455 a week, or $23,660 a year. That's triple the prior minimum salary of $155 a week, or $8,060 a year.

White-collar employees who earn more than $100,000 a year are automatically exempt from overtime pay under the new law. That wasn't the case before, although many high-income workers have been exempt for other reasons besides their income level.

The third test is where the rules get considerably more complicated -- and controversial. The final prong is called the "duties" test. It tries to establish eligibility based on the type of work an employee performs every day. Under federal law, a worker whose job is deemed "administrative," "professional" or "executive" in nature does not qualify for overtime. The categories themselves won't change.

The nation's workers and employers face a brand new set of overtime regulations. CNN's Louise Schiavone looks at the new rules and the debate.

Instead, the new rules aim to clarify the type of work that qualifies as administrative, professional and executive. For example, under the administrative exemption, a fast-food manager who sets schedules for a team of workers but can't hire or fire workers will no longer earn overtime.

Overtime rules have long been contentious, with labor unions seeking more time-and-a-half coverage for workers and businesses wanting to restrict non-exempt employees. While both sides agree that the rules, which have not been revamped since 1949, were outmoded, they have disagreed vehemently about what aspects of the rules need changed.

Labor unions sought increases in the minimum salary levels necessary to be considered exempt, while business interests lobbied for an overhaul of the "duties" test.

Every administration since President Jimmy Carter has tried to rewrite overtime rules, but efforts failed because the issue is so politically contentious.

Since the mid-1990s, however, litigation between employers and their workers over time-and-a-half eligibility has exploded. Many companies like Starbucks, Wal-Mart and Taco Bell have been sued by workers who claim their employers have taken advantage of the outmoded rules to deny them overtime pay. After a series of multimillion-dollar jury verdicts and settlements, business groups demanded that the Bush Administration rewrite the rules.

The rules that took effect Monday have undergone several revisions in the 18 months since they were first proposed.

J. Craig Shearman, the vice president for government affairs at the National Retail Federation, said retailers, who have been especially hit hard with lawsuits, are pleased with the new rules. Among other things, he said they simplify overtime classifications by relying less on job titles and more on actual duties.

"We're very happy to see the update," he said.

Labor unions, meanwhile, vow to continue waging battles in court for overtime pay. And if Democrats retake the White House in November, it's likely that the new rules will be further revised in order to placate workers.

Another factor that could dampen the impact of the new regs is state law. Some 18 states, including California and Illinois, have separate overtime laws that trump federal law, according to Amy Bess, an employment law partner at Sonnenschein Nath & Rosenthal in Washington, D.C.

The federal rules that took effect Monday will not affect workers in those states.

-- CNN/Money's Krysten Crawford contributed to this story
 

Phoenix

Member
The new overtime rules are very odd, but the best is yet to come. What Bush really wants is to change overtime pay into comp-time pay so your employer can work you like a dog M, T, W, and then give you the 'day off' Th and Fri so you work a regular number of hours over the course of the week.
 

shoplifter

Member
^^^DING.

And if you think that employers aren't going to start trying to reclassify hourly office positions into salaried ones to cut OT, you're on crack.
 

Archaix

Drunky McMurder
Important to note is what is mentioned in that last paragraph. If your state has its own overtime laws, you will not be affected. When state and federal laws conflict, the one more favorable to the workers is followed. Try as it may, this administration can't fuck us all over.
 

ShadowRed

Banned
Archaix said:
Important to note is what is mentioned in that last paragraph. If your state has its own overtime laws, you will not be affected. When state and federal laws conflict, the one more favorable to the workers is followed. Try as it may, this administration can't fuck us all over.





Wrong Federal law supercedes all other laws.
 

shoplifter

Member
ShadowRed said:
Wrong Federal law supercedes all other laws.

Not in regard to this bill, apparently.

CNN said:
Another factor that could dampen the impact of the new regs is state law. Some 18 states, including California and Illinois, have separate overtime laws that trump federal law, according to Amy Bess, an employment law partner at Sonnenschein Nath & Rosenthal in Washington, D.C.
 

KingV

Member
Phoenix said:
The new overtime rules are very odd, but the best is yet to come. What Bush really wants is to change overtime pay into comp-time pay so your employer can work you like a dog M, T, W, and then give you the 'day off' Th and Fri so you work a regular number of hours over the course of the week.

I'd prefer the four day weekends myself.
 

ShadowRed

Banned
Phoenix said:
In this case, state law is the governing law unless someone takes it to the SC. Always starts at the state.




And you seriously don't see some corporation deciding to take this the SC because they can save money, or better yet throwing money into some campaign that would get people to agree to allow the Federal law to take precedent.




"I'd prefer the four day weekends myself."



Me too but I don't wanna work 3, 16 hour days to get one.
 

ShadowRed

Banned
KingV said:
I'd work 3 12 hour days though.




Plus some people would much rather have the money. There are some people who depend on overtime to get by. What's the point of a 4 day weekend, when you can't afford to take advantage of it.
 

Phoenix

Member
ShadowRed said:
Plus some people would much rather have the money. There are some people who depend on overtime to get by. What's the point of a 4 day weekend, when you can't afford to take advantage of it.

DING! We have a winner. There are many people who make ends meet off overtime work because there are certain types of jobs where overtime work is pretty much guaranteed. Additionally there are parents who wouldn't benefit from the time off because they STILL have to take their kids to school so at best they can sit around all day and wait for their kids to come home from school so they can spend some time with them (one of the reasons why Bush said comp-time would be a good alternative to overtime). I think that any law should give the employee a choice of whether they want the money or the time and just let people decide. But of course - corporate accounting, planning, and benefits departments don't want to deal with that ambiguity.
 

Phoenix

Member
ShadowRed said:
And you seriously don't see some corporation deciding to take this the SC because they can save money, or better yet throwing money into some campaign that would get people to agree to allow the Federal law to take precedent.

A corporation is more likely to 'fund the law change' than they are likely to run to the SC next month. Publicly showing that you want to screw your employees is bad for business :)
 

Pimpwerx

Member
The worker benefits - GOOD! :)

The job class exemptions - BAD! :(

Programmers just took one in the gut. I wouldn't want to work a 60 hour week with no overtime compensation. PEACE.
 

KingV

Member
I think the point that people are forgetting is that if you just work people 16 hours a day straight until they hit 40 hours, nobody will want to work at your corporation. I don't think it's federal laws that keep companies from doing this so much as competition from other corporations for their workers. If companies would immediately start screwing their employees the first chance they get, why do any companies have healthcare, 401K's, or pay more than minimum wage? The government doesn't require them to do any of that.

By the logic in this thread, no corporation would ever do any of those things because they all cost money. They do it because otherwise they'd lose their talented employees to the competition. Somehow I don't think that pushing your employees 60 hours a week, no overtime on minimum wage is a solid business strategy.
 

Phoenix

Member
KingV said:
I think the point that people are forgetting is that if you just work people 16 hours a day straight until they hit 40 hours, nobody will want to work at your corporation. I don't think it's federal laws that keep companies from doing this so much as competition from other corporations for their workers. If companies would immediately start screwing their employees the first chance they get, why do any companies have healthcare, 401K's, or pay more than minimum wage? The government doesn't require them to do any of that.

My friend you are apparently not familiar with a wide variety of jobs that fall precisely into this category including dock workers, cable splicers/technicians, cleaning and convention services workers, and delivery personnel for the likes of UPS, Fedex, etc (just to name a few of the positions that I know are effected by this). There are PLENTY of people who currently work incredible overtime hours during the course of business. You are also making a HUGE assumption about benefits. Walmart, the largest employer in the country, has none of those benefits you mention. Large groups of Walmart employees will also be effected by this.

We aren't talking about the average white collar worker positions here - just look at the changes in wages for exemptions and you will see quite clearly and specifically where this is targetted.
 

KingV

Member
"Full-time Wal-Mart associates are eligible for a comprehensive benefits package, which includes health insurance, profit sharing, 401K, paid vacations, stock purchase, scholarships and store discounts."

http://www.grandview.wa.us/walmart.htm

I stand by my assertion, you're blowing this way out of proportion.



edit: oops hit post too early.
 

Phoenix

Member
KingV said:
"Full-time Wal-Mart associates are eligible for a comprehensive benefits package, which includes health insurance, profit sharing, 401K, paid vacations, stock purchase, scholarships and store discounts."

http://www.grandview.wa.us/walmart.htm

I stand by my assertion, you're blowing this way out of proportion.



edit: oops hit post too early.

Fulltime employees are not eligible for overtime.
 

KingV

Member
Where does it say that, all I see is salary workers.

edit: Now that I think about it. That assertion doesn't even make any sense. You are mistaken here. How can you not be full time but work greater than 40 hours a week? Who has a "part time" job where they work more than full time workers. This is just flat out incorrect. The actual assertion is that Salary workers do not receive overtime.
 

bjork

Member
KingV said:
How can you not be full time but work greater than 40 hours a week? Who has a "part time" job where they work more than full time workers. This is just flat out incorrect.

After having worked at WM and a grocery store, I can tell you that in So Cal, it's quite common for a part timer to put in 40+ per week. Part time just means some hours, with no guarantee of a full-time amount... like at the grocery store, you were assured 24, but could wind up working 48 and maybe some overtime too, but you were never assured more than the initial 24 hours.

The hitch was, if you worked 40 or more hours for 15 weeks in a row, you were eligible for full time status, and all you had to do is make a phone call and supply the paystubs that showed your hours worked. So on week 15, you'd be sent home early on friday or whatever so that you only got 37 hours on the week, keeping you firmly stuck at part time. Meanwhile, most old timers were full time and did their five 8-hour shifts and left, as they had the security you were looking for.

WM would keep you based on the situation. I once worked a 17 hour shift at christmastime because they were short on help, and it was mandatory. So... it's not really incorrect.
 

Phoenix

Member
KingV said:
Where does it say that, all I see is salary workers.

edit: Now that I think about it. That assertion doesn't even make any sense. You are mistaken here. How can you not be full time but work greater than 40 hours a week? Who has a "part time" job where they work more than full time workers. This is just flat out incorrect. The actual assertion is that Salary workers do not receive overtime.

Salaried employees are employees that receive a fixed rate of money based on an unspecified amount of work over the course of a year. I am a salaried employee, no matter if I have to work 60 hours a week to get something out or not I get paid the same amount of money.

Fulltime employees are not specifically salaried employees. There are many full time employees who are paid an hourly wage. What makes you a full time employee is working consistently 40 hours a week.

Part time employees are never salaried employeed. The only requirement is that they work less than 40 hours a week.

I would get into independent contractors as well, but its not necessary for this particular point.
 

shoplifter

Member
Keep in mind that some salaried employees also qualify for overtime hours, iirc. I don't have the info here in front of me to say which ones.
 

KingV

Member
Phoenix said:
Salaried employees are employees that receive a fixed rate of money based on an unspecified amount of work over the course of a year. I am a salaried employee, no matter if I have to work 60 hours a week to get something out or not I get paid the same amount of money.

Fulltime employees are not specifically salaried employees. There are many full time employees who are paid an hourly wage. What makes you a full time employee is working consistently 40 hours a week.

Part time employees are never salaried employeed. The only requirement is that they work less than 40 hours a week.

I would get into independent contractors as well, but its not necessary for this particular point.

You specifically said Fulltime workers were not paid overtime. I never disputed that salaried workers were not paid overtime. I have no confusion as to Part time/full time/salaried/hourly/Independent contractor distinction. I have been each of those at different points in my life. I'm assuming we are in agreement that Fulltime hourly workers still get paid Overtime?
 

KingV

Member
shoplifter said:
Keep in mind that some salaried employees also qualify for overtime hours, iirc. I don't have the info here in front of me to say which ones.

The distinction, I think is federally mandated overtime. I'd have to read the regulations closely, but the only way I can imagine that this working out would be if they fall under that 23,660/year limit of Overtime protection but were still salaried. That would be one crappy ass salary position, however.
 

Phoenix

Member
KingV said:
I actually meant that Full Timers don't get Overtime. That part is incorrect.

You are correct. Fulltime Walmart employees do receive overtime. In fact walmart employees have sued walmart over not receiving overtime. Add Boeing to that list

Just last month, for example, a federal court in Seattle approved a settlement in a class action brought on behalf of 29,000 female employees of Boeing who claimed that they had been denied the opportunity to work overtime and to move into better-paying positions.

Overtime and Descrimination

and radio shack
Radio Shack

Not quite 'some imaginary condition'. Unfortunately I can't link in stuff from Lexis nexis.
 
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