Superman - new trailer
- Thread starter SJRB
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He's not really an immigrant though, more of a refugee. Very different origin basis and legal status. It wasn't a voluntary decision on his part and he certainly left an untenable situation.
It's also largely a stupid topic to discuss since no human can make Superman do ANYTHING and in a proper Superman story his 'goodness' is undeniable. He also has no known address, how could you even start to build a legal case against him? He has no social security number, pays no taxes, appears and disappears at will. Only someone like Lex would even try to push it as a negative PR campaign.
Doom85
Member
Issue TWENTY ONE of the original Stan Lee run of Fantastic Four.
Captain America comics have been political since at least the 80's. Green Lantern/Green Arrow was a 70's run that was heavily political. I could keep going, but at least there's some, but certainly not all, of the earlier examples of this in DC and Marvel.
That's not what I was saying at all. I'm saying the SCENARIO was invented by you, the idea that there's kids about to die in a flood and Superman is just ignoring those kids who are in danger. You invented that, so it has no bearing on anything unless a writer were to put it in an official story, and if they did, then the issue is the writer not understanding Superman as a character morality-wise as he would leave the date to go save those kids. What I was saying had nothing to do with his powers. I'm well aware of all his powers.
Issue TWENTY ONE of the original Stan Lee run of Fantastic Four.
Captain America comics have been political since at least the 80's. Green Lantern/Green Arrow was a 70's run that was heavily political. I could keep going, but at least there's some, but certainly not all, of the earlier examples of this in DC and Marvel.
This is hardly a serious political statement. That's a rabble rouser villain about on the level of the Westboro Baptist Church. With a bit of the KKK and nazis thrown in.
If they show him doing it (monitoring the worlds communications), then it stands to reason that he IS DOING IT. Does everything have to be laid out in black and white for you? It's pretty obvious that Superman, with that capability, is aware of tragedies EVERY SECOND. The only real defense is to depower him such he in fact can not hear all those things, or he has somehow subconsciously tuned it all out except anything referencing Lois Lane.
This is why it is morally risky to have gods walking amongst us and then try to throw in trendy current political topics more serious than a grade school civics level (which is about what the Hate-monger was) if you are not gonna go all the way with it in every aspect.
IDKFA
I am Become Bilbo Baggins
Is he an immigrant? I don't think the definition or immigrant works with superman. He's not a person who came to live permanently in a foreign country. He's an alien being who was sent to Earth as a baby just before his planet was destroyed. It's not like anyone can deport him.
Immigration is a choice people have on Earth. Kal-El not only didn't have a choice, but he's not even from this planet. Calling him an immigrant just doesn't make sense.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
He had to train himself to "shut off" his superhearing or else he would not be able to function. He listens to where he's most needed but he also trained his hearing to listen to specific heartbeats and voices, like Lois's
Think of it like natural hearing. You hear background noise ALL the time but your brain is trained to ignore it so you can hear that person you're talking with. You only hear something in the background if it's surprising and loud enough... like a BANG!
Doom85
Member
It was one example. The Green Lantern/Green Arrow run features several racist antagonists, some of which don't have powers and/or are more subtle (at least comparatively with their racist actions, such as the first issue that has a racist slumlord who takes advantage of his tenants and now plans to sell the building and leave them homeless. Hal Jordan/Green Lantern doesn't believe the slumlord is doing anything wrong at first, but due to criticisms from Green Arrow and one of the tenants, Hal comes to slowly understand things like systematic racism, and he works with Green Arrow in figuring out how to legally expose the slumlord for illegal activities he's doing on the side.
Dude, YOU gave a specific example that you totally made up where Superman is on a date with Lois and ignores the pleas of children being endangered by a flood. That is what I was addressing, why are you not getting this?
Regardless, Superman's hearing is inconsistently portrayed across media, but generally, Superman will limit himself to only going in to deal with major catastrophes, like huge earthquakes, a massively powerful villain attacking, and such when it comes to issues outside of Metropolis. But he can't be everywhere at once, and he can't prevent every tragedy ever (though within the established DC verse, there are lots of other heroes to help cover other areas of the U.S. and even the whole world). In fact, it's a staple lesson of Superman media that he learns he can't save everyone, something you should be aware of if you've even seen a small sample of Superman movies or shows or read comics.
Superman also knows if he did too much in trying to stop every single crime everywhere or every issue humanity had to deal with, it would limit humanity's own push to defending themselves. This is flat out said in Grant Morrison's run of Justice League.
Because there is a tragedy every second that superman COULD be stopping. A tragedy that, often, he is shown to have the ability to know about, but the writers conveniently forget about in order to pursue other things with superman, like him having a relationship with Lois or living as Clark.It was one example. The Green Lantern/Green Arrow run features several racist antagonists, some of which don't have powers and/or are more subtle (at least comparatively with their racist actions, such as the first issue that has a racist slumlord who takes advantage of his tenants and now plans to sell the building and leave them homeless. Hal Jordan/Green Lantern doesn't believe the slumlord is doing anything wrong at first, but due to criticisms from Green Arrow and one of the tenants, Hal comes to slowly understand things like systematic racism, and he works with Green Arrow in figuring out how to legally expose the slumlord for illegal activities he's doing on the side.
Dude, YOU gave a specific example that you totally made up where Superman is on a date with Lois and ignores the pleas of children being endangered by a flood. That is what I was addressing, why are you not getting this?
This is fine in a comic aimed at kids. Supes can hear a plea when he wants, he can legit not hear them when it doesn't serve the story. This is comics 101 because the power sets given to these characters would otherwise precude them having any kind of attachment with humanity. How does someone distract The Flash by having to save a kid from getting hit by a car and then RUN away....when the Flash could save the kid in 1 second and then literally check every one within a 1 mile radius in the next 5 minutes. Where did that criminal go?
But we accept this because its comics, its not serious and Flash needs to be at least somewhat relatable and defeatable.
Same with Supes.
Buuuuuuuuut, and this is my point which you just totally can't grok, is that WHEN you bring in current politics, like having Superman be involved in immigration issues like those currently affecting the US. This is probably just external PR blabber and not something the film itself deals with, but once you drag up the question of Supermans citizenship and if he is in violation of current law blah blah blah then you are effectively stripping away the veneer of fantasy that is required for a superhero to exist in the first place. Its a foolish choice to use these iconic heroes to play out situations like this, IMHO. They can address general issues of humanity, like hey we should respect people, especially your elders, don't bully, stay in school, etc. But when Superman says "Free Palestine, from the river to the Sea!", then that's a line he should NEVER cross. And having Superman comment on current ICE policy on illegal immigration would be something like that.
So what do you do when the writers want to inject politics/topical issues into their writing? You CODE it of course! Much like the Hate-monger, you distill it down into a more generalized form, cloak it in a ridiculous outfit, slap on some superpowers, and have at it! Or, like in the case of 'New Asgard' in the MCU, you just do it and don't actually comment on the moral righteousness of it at all. You don't consider the ramifications to humanity learning that they are just a wee speck in a hostile universe, that apparently all gods (other than the judeochristian one apparently) are actually real, or any of a million other things that ought to happen if we are making a story that gives a fuck about immigration policy and law.
Fake
Member
Doom85
Member
I already explained in my previous post why Superman doesn't prevent every single possible death that could happen. Please at least attempt to address that rather than just repeating yourself.
This right here? From 1949:
And the Green Lantern/Green Arrow comic series, again from the 1970's, dealt with real world issues of racism, drug abuse, and such, and many of their political issues involved normal human beings on both sides, it wasn't all superpowered costumed individuals throwing hands at one another.
And it's a classic series that is still getting frequently reprinted to this day because of how many comic fans love it.
You're literally arguing against something comics have done for decades and decades and have been well accepted by their fans for decades and decades.
Look, you can have your opinion, but you're basically doing the equivalent of arguing that a Star Trek show has no business being philosophical. The superhero comics medium has proven it can do this just fine for DECADES, if you don't like it in spite of that, fine, but stop trying to act like this is something superhero stories don't have a long history with.
Star Trek is a GREAT example of my point, thanks for bringing it up.
How did Star Trek (classic Trek) deal with "current topical issues" from the 60's? They coded it with a sci-fi gloss. It wasn't preachy or pandering. If they wanted a story about race relations, they had guys with black and white faces versus guys with white and black faces. Russians were Klingons, the Chinese were romulans, stuff like that. It adds a bit of distance. Abraham Lincoln calls Uhura a negro and she corrects him, he apologizes, and they move no. No grandstanding, no preaching, no hamfisted moralizing. They had their world and it stood on itself as an example of Rodenberry's somewhat horny version of utopia. Also helps that they had some world class sci-fi writers contributing, though of course the budget and time constraints back then severely limited what they could do.
Now nu-trek, what do they do? Subtlety lost. It's in your face sloppy writing. They have all the time and money to make the shows look good but the preachiness of the scripts with an overt focus on trendy topics is turning of fans left and right.
You are throwing up a lot of examples of what was basically "pro-government" messaging, basically propaganda were they to do it today. The comics code authority had them in a iron grip for long stretches. Probably wouldn't be a bad thing now, though it would depend on your POV because politics are so polarized these days and the "my way or the highway" package deal on topics prevents any real subtlety or nuance on specific issues. Batman says "I don't like guns" and he's a rabid liberal. Captain America says "all life is precious, even the unborn" and he may as well be wearing a MAGA hat. That's what you get when you frame your escapist fiction by current political trends and the CONSTANT social media footprint by creators is tainting their work when they engage in this stuff.
Doom85
Member
That Superman comic panel I posted above? Again, it was from 1949. That was years before the Civil Rights movement even started.
Don't sit here and pretend that didn't piss off a good number of readers when they read that issue. Because I know you would be wrong, Charles Schulz got a lot of angry letters back when he was making the Peanuts comics simply because Franklin, a black kid, went to the same school as Charlie Brown and the others. We still deal with that bullshit today, like a Pixar film like Lightyear featuring two adults who just happen to be of the same gender and in a relationship, yet people of certain mindsets act like this is outrageous and unethical and harmful towards kids even though the film features nothing remotely sexual in it whatsoever (and is rated PG, meanwhile the 1990's Hunchback of Notre Dame film is only rated G yet features an entire song about lust and a moment of sexual harassment by the villain towards the main female character, and yet barely anyone seemed to complain about any of THAT being in a Disney film).
It's because they don't agree with the message, therefore they don't want it to exist, but they'll spin it any way they can even when it blatantly contradicts how they act towards similar messages and such (remember, Pixar shouldn't be allowed to feature something like that apparently, but The Incredibles featuring a civilian attempting to commit suicide, apparently that's an okay concept to put in the mind of impressionable kids! Consistency!)
The Green Lantern/Green Arrow comic, again, from the 1970's, has a black man flat out accuse Hal Jordan of not caring about black people when Hal initially dismisses how they're being treated by the corrupt slumlord. What exactly is "subtle" about that?
Also, let's not pretend your Abraham Lincoln/Uhura example wouldn't trigger some people if it was first airing today and be called "preachy".
Hugare
Member
If this Superman was Snyder's, people would be saying how he doesnt get who Superman is and bla bla
But since its Gunn's, "he is so faithful to the original material, you know?"
NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt
Biggest Trails Stan
Trilobit
Absolutely Cozy
This reminded me of how atmospheric Returns is. It has a very special vibe throughout the movie, like this contemplative, slightly mellow, feel. I think it's time for a rewatch, I always thought people reviewed it too harshly.
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Nintendo's Witch
Member
No
AJUMP23
Parody of actual AJUMP23
Does he stand for Truth Justice and the American way, or does he grab a Mexican flag and run around the streets protesting for free goods and services.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
"The American Way" has lost its meaning as of late... They took out that part and replaced it with "Truth, Justice and a Better Tomorrow"
AJUMP23
Parody of actual AJUMP23
Lunarorbit
Member
Downplaying how horrible those nazis at westborough church are sure is something.
You clearly don't understand superman at all. He can hear all that's going on but he's not interfering with human politics every second. Thats why lex is constantly getting away. Even red son was hesitant to get involved in human politics
Madflavor
Member
Making a political statement about immigration in a Superman film, when the charcter himself is an immigrant, is the least surprising thing that could've happened. And as far as statements go, it was incredibly tame. "Be kind to people" that's it. Andor Season 2's plot was an obvious allegory to immigation and genocide, and it was an incredible season of television. Like who fucking cares. As long as people aren't obnoxious about it. This isn't a Rachel Zegler situation, we can't get all in a huff whenever we're challenged on our beliefs in the most milquetoast way.
The character of Superman IS all about love, kindness and hope. This is like bitching that there's violence in a Rambo film.
The character of Superman IS all about love, kindness and hope. This is like bitching that there's violence in a Rambo film.
DreamcastSkies
Gold Member
I'm getting nervous about the reception this movie will have. As Snyder wasn't willing to restrain his desire to make something unique and bold to his DC movies rather than following a crowd-pleasing MCU sort of blueprint, I'm getting the impression Gunn is too high on his own supply and couldn't resist being a bit political on this movie. We'll find out soon.
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KyoZz
Tag, you're it.
According to a new report, at least three noteworthy critics considered Superman a "mess"
SUPERMAN Reportedly Described As A "Mess" By Multiple Critics Before Social Embargo Lifts TONIGHT
According to a new report, at least three noteworthy critics considered Superman a "mess," leading to confusion among fans with just hours to go before the social media embargo is lifted. Check it out...
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
According to a new report, at least three noteworthy critics considered Superman a "mess"
SUPERMAN Reportedly Described As A "Mess" By Multiple Critics Before Social Embargo Lifts TONIGHT
According to a new report, at least three noteworthy critics considered Superman a "mess," leading to confusion among fans with just hours to go before the social media embargo is lifted. Check it out...comicbookmovie.com
And? What's the audience score ... The one taken outside the theater right after a movie finished
KyoZz
Tag, you're it.
Are we prohibited to post early reviews and talk about the movie?
Anyway here are 2 positive reviews, Sunday Times:
And GQ:
AJUMP23
Parody of actual AJUMP23
I like Superman as a character and his pure values. He was best when he was a bit naive like a farm boy. There is something to a character being honest in a cynical world. The contrast between the frankness of Lois and his optimism makes the character stand out. It is what Reeve did well. I hope Gunn can capture that.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
Oh no. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying I don't trust critics anymore. I want to know what audiences thinks, even if they're mixed.Are we prohibited to post early reviews and talk about the movie?
Anyway here are 2 positive reviews, Sunday Times:
And GQ:
I'm committed to seeing the film, at this point reviews will only dictate how drunk I get before I see itAre we prohibited to post early reviews and talk about the movie?
Anyway here are 2 positive reviews, Sunday Times:
And GQ:
My wife just wants that krypto popcorn bucket
KyoZz
Tag, you're it.
Oh ok yeah I agree. Rotten Tomatoes/Youtube/Twitter etc... killed any honesty. It is what it is but I thought I'd share, after all we still have review threads.
Madflavor
Member
I'm ready to be entertained either way. If the movie is good then that's awesome we got a good Superman movie. But if the movie doesn't review well, that's such a disaster for WB and Gunn. Imagine doing your own superhero cinematic universe, embarrass yourselves time and time again, have the competition destroy you, and permanently damage the public perception of your brand. Then you reboot, try again, announce all these big projects, and then your debut film is another stinker.
If Superman isn't good, WB really should just walk away from CBMs at that point. Your DC brand is going to be so damaged for many many years. Hang up the cape. Superheroes films peaked 6 years ago anyway.
If Superman isn't good, WB really should just walk away from CBMs at that point. Your DC brand is going to be so damaged for many many years. Hang up the cape. Superheroes films peaked 6 years ago anyway.
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Branded
Member
Sweet! Love that these Hollywood types are so front and centre with their politics and activism these days. Another easy skip!
Ulysses 31
Member
J
jason10mm
variety.com
Even though the official tax documents from Ohio show the costs to be over 350M and that doesn't include the 200M marketing...
Don't worry though, Superman (2025) won't be a flop if it makes less than Man of Steel according to James Gunn.According to a new report, at least three noteworthy critics considered Superman a "mess"
SUPERMAN Reportedly Described As A "Mess" By Multiple Critics Before Social Embargo Lifts TONIGHT
According to a new report, at least three noteworthy critics considered Superman a "mess," leading to confusion among fans with just hours to go before the social media embargo is lifted. Check it out...
James Gunn Says It’s ‘Nonsense’ to Think ‘Superman’ Will Flop If It Doesn’t Make $700 Million: ‘It Doesn’t Need to Be as Big as People Are Saying’
James Gunn says 'Superman' does not have earn at least $700 million at the box office in order to be a box office hit.
variety.com
Even though the official tax documents from Ohio show the costs to be over 350M and that doesn't include the 200M marketing...
Lambogenie
Member
Anti smite, probably.
Well, he was created by Jews.
Oy Vey!
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
Out of theater reaction
DragoonKain
Neighbours from Hell
DKehoe
Member
TrebleShot
Member
87% RT v good, looking forward to this.
March Climber
Member
I mean…this is what the original Superman cartoon dealt with. This is what motivates Luthor to do what he does.
It's also part of the reason why kids saw that show as slightly more boring than Batman TAS. It deal with a lot of themes and conversations that went over their heads.
Hawking Radiation
Wants to watch an Event Horizon porno
Yeah I'll go watch this. Not expecting a The Dark Knight rises type experience. Just down for a fun popcorn flick and I haven't been to the cinema since Oppenheimer in IMAX which sitting in the front row is not a fun experience
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Doom85
Member
which sitting in the front row is not a fun experience
Damn, had that happen to me and my friends at the Oz The Great and Powerful film (the Wizard of Oz prequel with James Franco) due to us being in Target before we went to the theater and one of our friends ignored our warning that we should probably get going and insisted we stick around for another ten minutes, since this was pre-assigned seating, we were caught off guard when we walked in at the nearly packed room and had to settle for the front row. Necks felt terrible after the film finished.
Then the same friend pulled a similar stunt again before the first Jurassic World. Luckily, no one had to be in the front row, but only me and my best friend got to sit next to each other on the end of one row in the middle, while everyone else had to each settle for a seat completely by themselves. The friend who kept making us late wised up and didn't make the same mistake anymore after that.
DKehoe
Member
Avoiding those kind of situations is the good thing about reserved seats becoming the norm.
It must hurt theaters though, I often see screens that have only the center filled 'cause no one wants to buy on the edge or way up front. I definitely will look around (easy to do since my area is way over saturated with screens) versus knowing I'm gonna get a crappy seat.
Trilobit
Absolutely Cozy
My country has only had reserved seats as long as I've been alive. I never understood the references to cinema seating when I grew up and watched American TV shows. Seems so archaic to not have a reservation system.
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