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New Test suggests NASA's EM Drive will work in space
- Thread starter Cookie18
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what's that philosophical dilemma called where the first generation sent on an interstellar mission will likely be passed by a later generation during their mission?
That's not how this works commonly (speaking as a physicist here), you don't need to fully (or even partially) understand how it works to publish experimental results. Which actually happens more often than the other way around. There are currently a lot of unexplained measurements out there in many fields of physics, and this usually result in further experimental and theoretical investigation. This is what keeps research going.
For now you simply cannot take these claims as scientific evidence of anything, because we only have some people's word for it, which is just not good enough in science.
Here's the best summary I've seen. http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2015/04/evaluating-nasas-futuristic-em-drive/
So even if we discount SPR's testing (since it was done by Shawyer), there are two other labs (Eagleworks and Prof Yang in China) that have shown similar results. Eagleworks are the only ones to test in a hard vacuum so far, and they will supposedly be testing a higher powered magnetron EM Drive later this year. I believe Eagleworks is also planning to have 3 independent research teams do their own testing.
Edit: Here's the paper published by Yang
http://www.emdrive.com/yang-juan-paper-2012.pdf
Wyndstryker
Member
It's their version of the drive. The original variant by the creator is called the Cannae Drive.
This is also potentially the beginning of what can be a new space race. There are 3 nations at the forefront of this technology, US, UK and China.
I can't remember, but I hope they drop by my ship with life extension drugs and upgrades for our engines.
Dr. Zoidberg
Member
While I agree, people like to see results for their money, and it's been a long time since NASA was doing anything terribly exciting to the layperson. There have also been a couple of "black eyes" that have further eroded confidence. If something like this comes out of NASA and actually has real-world impact the money will flow again.
Epsilon-delta
Banned
"Some people's word for it" are your fellow peers at NASA.
Eagleworks is also going to have 3 independent teams do their own experiments.
That paper reads like something written by a first year student instead of someone who knows their stuff. Which is probably why it hasn't gotten a lot of attention in the physics community.
As for eagleworks: I'm sure they'll do a better job, but I'd be very careful about taking anything from preliminary results. Things may change before they are actually done with their testing.
But anyway: If this does actually work I'll be very excited, because the number of possible applications would be enormous. It really would change everything, which is also the reason why I remain sceptical.
Well I'm not ready to throw scientific principles out of the window, just because they are associated with NASA.
Up to 3 people can share a nobel prize.
The reality is that people in physics come up with ideas all the time, but nobody really knows if they are correct until experiments are done. Both parts are equally important.
Melon Husk
Member
Read about dynamical Casimir effect and Unruh radiation and you will not sleep tonight.
Naked Snake
Member
Because 'Murica that's why
Well, the excitement, for me at least, has more to do with it not being disproved and moving on for further testing. Yea, it may never be a reality, be we can hope.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Americans like stealing British inventions. Just ask John Logie Baird.
Skepticism is the correct response, I'm just excited because I've been following it since Eagleworks made their first presentation on it last year and it still hasn't been disproven. If it turns out to be bogus then I'll be disappointed, but whatever. Disappointment is a part of life, as is excitement
RadioHammer500
Banned
no..i thought nasa is testing Shawyer variant and not Fetta's variant?
Epsilon-delta
Banned
You are correct.
AnotherNils
Member
Bingo. It'll be the worst thing since vaccines.
FreddieQuell
Member
This engine does use energy, it just doesn't use fuel.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
It requires energy, but providing that in space long-term is a problem we solved ages ago.
Meanwhile, running a constant burn with a rocket for years presents obvious fuel capacity problems.
Cow Mengde
Banned
Has anyone posted this yet?
http://www.redorbit.com/news/space/...nt-the-warp-drive-050115/#DtpPXdU292DlKQep.01
http://www.redorbit.com/news/space/...nt-the-warp-drive-050115/#DtpPXdU292DlKQep.01
Muskieratboi
Member
wait, is this the same one that was like, a warp drive or something, or what?
That was a random guess by someone working on the EM drive about some weird measurements, extremely likely that it is something else.
If this thing worked at even a fraction of the speed of light in it's current state it would still be a revolutionary enough discovery.
But yeah...I still have my doubts about this whole thing, I guess there's a reason why NASA isn't saying anything publicly.
The important part is that it doesn't require fuel, since so far, the produced thrust is still very low. To highlight the important of fuel, let's consider the MESSENGER probe that crashed into Mercury yesterday. When it was launched, half the weight of the craft consisted of fuel. In order to conserve that fuel, it had to take a long course through the solar system: launching in 2004, making its first flyby of Mercury in 2008, and finally settling in orbit in 2011. Thus, it took 7 years for it to reach Mercury primarily based on its initial launch and a series of fuel-saving orbital transfers. Then, it had enough fuel to last for 1 year in orbit, which was amazingly extended to 4 years thanks to some ingenuity from the NASA team running the project. It was forced to crash into the planet, ending its mission permanently, purely because it ran out of fuel.
If it was equipped with an EM drive, that probe would have not only been able to dedicate more of its mass to sensors and computers, but it could also arrived much more quickly thanks to a more direct route. Most importantly, it could have stayed in operation almost indefinitely, or at least until its parts began to deteriorate, which probably would take decades or longer.
So, not needing to conserve fuel is a massive game-changer for every single mission NASA will ever carry out. A practical EM engine would transform space exploration overnight.
King Tubby
Member
It's not basic quantum physics, it seems to be rather more complex than that (otherwise it wouldn't be so contentious and there wouldn't be so much skepticism from the scientific community). And the "warp" effects that have been mentioned seem to be stemming from something else entirely, or at least isn't part of the claims that were originally made about the device.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
King Tubby
Member
I would love to hear about these basic Quantum physics that physicist haven't figured out.
cheezcake
Member
The point is it (seemingly) violates the law of conservation of momentum, the photons are entirely enclosed in the waveguide and hence should produce a net 0 force. What you're thinking of are basic light sails, a century old idea now.
Rodney McKay
Member
Don't physicists know about quantum entanglement, but don't know exactly why it works? (or about its implications on how space works or something)
I forget if it was that or something else, but it was proven to be true and there wasn't one accepted theory for WHY it was true (or at least the show I watched left that out,but it seemed pretty new so I would imagine they'd have said if there was a widely accepted theory).
Elfforkusu
Member
Hopefully thats the case. Quick, someone the the US congress China will be first to land on mars.
Badlucktroll
Member
Look where we were 500 years ago. where will we be 500 years from now?
Aeriscloud
Banned
CrunchyFrog
Member
BizzyBum
Member
That's the thinking that annoys me. Imagine how much progress we could make if we worked together instead of treating it like a longest dick contest between nations.
You better believe they'll be attaching these drives to orbital weapons before they attach them to interstellar rockets.
King Tubby
Member
If they work they'll likely be attached to pretty much anything in space (and depending on the efficiency, likely on earth as well). This kind of device doesn't seem like it'd be very useful to create weaponry.
I've been having a little think about the ship design using the EM drive.
Since you dont need the engines at the back of the ship, the centre of the ship would probably make most sense, for maintenance reasons. Microwaves are pretty easy to shield out.
You would probably have banks of smaller EM drives in parallel rather than a big giant one - this is a big maybe. You would also have some smaller EM racks at the front and back of the ship for maneuvering. The main engine would be pointed down into the floor. That way all the thrust generated would allow us to survive longer in space with a form of "gravity".
These ships would probably be built in orbit so they wouldn't have to be aerodynamic. The most efficient shape would be a cube; we like to live in box shaped rooms.
So something like this:
Since you dont need the engines at the back of the ship, the centre of the ship would probably make most sense, for maintenance reasons. Microwaves are pretty easy to shield out.
You would probably have banks of smaller EM drives in parallel rather than a big giant one - this is a big maybe. You would also have some smaller EM racks at the front and back of the ship for maneuvering. The main engine would be pointed down into the floor. That way all the thrust generated would allow us to survive longer in space with a form of "gravity".
These ships would probably be built in orbit so they wouldn't have to be aerodynamic. The most efficient shape would be a cube; we like to live in box shaped rooms.
So something like this:
Welcome to our future folks....
Chittagong
Gold Member
The major implication of this, if true, is that we can send probes to everywhere we think there are habitable planets and get back images from their orbit. Some poor alien race will be freaked out to find our kit floating in their orbit. We probably should paint a smiley on them.
It is energy from nothing, but it is not a new type of energy. We knew about it before, just nobody thought it can be harvested.
Quantum Vacuum is real. In the "empty space", virtual particles [quark and gluon field fluctuations] of very very very low energy state are created and destroyed all the time, so fast that they don't have time to interact with almost anything. The entire universe, all particles and radiation, all of that is made from fields that are fluctuating or that can be stretched by forces that act on large distances [gravity for example]. Everything is made from vibrations of those fields, and the lowest state of the field that creates particles is not resting at "zero state".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3xLuZNKhlY
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_state
In this drive however, short lived particles [quantum virtual plasma] are redirected to "flow" into certain direction while they are "alive", and some of them hit the specific wall of the engine. Because they hit that wall and not any other wall [they pop out from existence before they can do so], engine gets thrust.
That's the theory at least, there is still no concrete verified proof [but the engines do work
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